Non Color Images

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Darknemo2000
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Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

It is very unreasonable to not allow Non color images on the illustration page. Why?

It creates more work that one does not need, first of all you need to upload each images separately now, instead of having them all conveniently placed on Illustrations page.

Secondary not all people may have the high quality illustrations that would be resized or joined well enough. Considering the slow pace of the translations it may be reasonable to have it all uploaded already rather than risk not to have those people at all later on.

Just look at other projects - ZnT or Toradora, all have non-color images uploaded together with color images and then later their thumbnails inserted together with the text once the translation is finished.

So why SaW has to be different? Just because it is a mess within translations right now doesn't mean that illustrations have to be at mess either.

Seriously, lets just keep it as normal as possible and follow the way of other projects, without trying to be 'original' and mess things up.

Yes i know that there are already uploaded few illustrations but just look at their thumbnails crappy quality. I do not know if it is because they are uploaded in non usual way but the quality of thumbnails certainly look bad so far.

Also we have to remember that SaW is not Haruhi in terms of speedy translation. It is rather slow so by the time when the chapter is finished the person who had hq (but still fitting) images might be gone and all others will have lower quality versions or none at all. Thats why it is better to upload all the illustrations and once the chapter is finished anyone can link the thumbnail into the text (he.she would not need to have the image itself as it would be already uploaded).
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Smidge204
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

So in how many places are you going to complain about this? You've sent me PMs, edited (semi-anonymously) my user talk page on the wiki, and now a thread on the forum.

Here's a link to my user page and a record of the private message conversation since I don't want anyone to feel left out of the loop:
Darknemo2000 wrote:I already wrote this in your talk page and created one thread about the Non Color images concerning Spice And Wolf.

Why do you take off them from the illustration page? I mean all other projects uplaod all illsutrations to illustrations pages and then upload the thumbnails into the text. As a result - the thumbnails look much higher quality (not the images themselves) than the ones that are directly uploaded (the way it is done in Spice And Wolf volume 3).

I will upload the non-color images to volume 3 and then insert the thumbnails instead of previous ones so you could see the difference in quality. Hopefully this will change your mind about this issue.
Smidge204 wrote:http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... Guideline is pretty clear about the format our projects use. Just because some of the other projects (two at last count, not including S&W) do it wrong is no excuse.

You're also not making any sense regarding thumbnails etc. Are you actually uploading two versions of each file, a thumbnail and a full version?
=Smidge=
Darknemo2000 wrote:I have uploaded a new image to illustrations and then linked a thumbnail from it to the chapter 1 (volume 3) check it out for the difference in quality (of a thumbnail itself).
Smidge204 wrote:This is very confusing...

You do not upload images "to a page" - Image names are global. It does not matter what page you click "upload file" from... also I did not delete the actual FILES just the textual references to them (check the page history) so it appears there are now two copies of "Okami_037.jpg" - good job on that. You no doubt got an error when trying to re-upload it using the same name.

It's also difficult to see any differences in quality when you appear to be talking about two completely different images. Kinda hard to compare them. Regardless, clicking on either a thumbnail in the Illustrations gallery or in the main text takes you to the EXACT SAME IMAGE. Try it sometime.

Please follow the suggestions outlined in the Uniform Format Guidelines regarding inline images:

http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... ine_Images

This is the standard that Baka-Tsuki has adopted over the past two years. The fact that three out of eighteen projects ignored the guideline is not a precedent to continue doing so.
=Smidge=


That's about all I have to say on the matter. You STILL have to upload each image separately, and you STILL have to link each image into the main text separately, so what you are doing is actually MORE work. It takes more effort to do it wrong yet you seem very set on doing it wrong.


EDIT: STOP DOING THAT. YOU ARE MAKING IT WORSE. Have you used a Wiki before? We now have two copies of every illustration for Volume 1 on the server. Seriously, knock it off.


EDIT2: Is this what you're talking about re: thumbnails?
SaW_thumbs.jpg
Note that the thumbnails are automatically generated, and clicking on either one (top = from illustrations page, bottom = from inline text) brings you to the SAME scaled-down version (on the right) which in turn brings you to the SAME full-resolution image. What are you talking about "quality" for? If there is a quality issue with the thumbnail it is due to a poor quality original.

=Smidge=
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

I mean check the volume 3 thumbnails before I changed them. If you do not see the difference then you must be blind.

Keeping all images together is a good way to keep a track on HQ version. Also this way it is easier to edit because editor doesn't need to have an image to place it in the novels. This way image inserting becomes faster as not all editors do have the image scans.

And about the spoiler argument. It is invalid as long as you keep color images because color images are just as much of a spoiler as non color ones specially if we talk about Spice And Wolf.

The quality of thumbnail is different compare the previous format of volume 3 chapter 1-3 images with the ones i have uploaded. You are showing me an image from other volume. What I was talking about are the thumbnails inserted in the chapters of 3 volume.

The previous thumbnails because of different formatting were rather ugly (png formatting and not quality enough resizing didn't do any good for it, and in thumbnails inserted in chapters you see white spots all over it). Now you can say that the matter is only formatting but again what if I would have never changed the format? It would remain as ugly as before, so would it not be better to allow to upload images for ones that have HQ or suited format rather than risk to have nothing in the end (or poor quality). In ideal world all members would stay around and the ones with HQ images would upload them once chapter is finished but it is not ideal world and sometimes you may lost HQ images because the person leaves the project during the period awaiting for the chapter or volume to finish and so on.

This is not Haruhi. Translations take longer, thus the situation should be changed accordingly. Your standard guidelines are more orientated to possible speedful translations (like in Haruhi's case) but ZnT, Spice and Wolf or Toradora are different in that sense because you do not have assurance about the project and it's speed.
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Smidge204
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

Darknemo2000 wrote:I mean check the volume 3 thumbnails before I changed them. If you do not see the difference then you must be blind.
I'm not blind, you just don't understand how it works.

Both thumbnails are dynamically generated from the same source image. Any perceived difference in quality is re result of either a different original image or the different scaling (the gallery thumbnails are smaller than the inline thumbnails, for example).

They are from the same original therefore, ultimately, there is no difference in quality.

Darknemo2000 wrote:Keeping all images together is a good way to keep a track on HQ version. Also this way it is easier to edit because editor doesn't need to have an image to place it in the novels. This way image inserting becomes faster as not all editors do have the image scans.
The images belong inside the text just like they are in the printed version. End of discussion.

Not only that, but you DO NOT UPLOAD THE IMAGE MORE THAN ONCE. Image have their own namespace and are GLOBAL. This is not your Freewebs account, and you do not have to upload the same image over and over every time you want to show it in a different page.
Darknemo2000 wrote:And about the spoiler argument. It is invalid as long as you keep color images because color images are just as much of a spoiler as non color ones specially if we talk about Spice And Wolf.
The color images appear at the beginning of the printed book, and anyone picking up a copy of the book would see them first. Therefore they are intended by the author/editor to be seen before you read the story. This is not true with the other images. This is also why we have a separate "Color Illustrations" section for them, because they belong up front by themselves.
Darknemo2000 wrote:The quality of thumbnail is different compare the previous format of volume 3 chapter 1-3 images with the ones i have uploaded. You are showing me an image from other volume. What I was talking about are the thumbnails inserted in the chapters of 3 volume.
Again, you fail to understand how the system works. Unless you look ONLY at the thumbnails - which is stupid because you can click on them to see the full version and if you print them like that you'll get postage stamps to squint at - then your argument is completely nonsensical.

But fine, here are the Volume 3 images you keep mentioning:
SaW_thumb2.jpg
Gallery, inline and info page versions. Here's the full version you uploaded, for reference:
Spoiler! :
Image
The three smaller versions were made automatically from the SINGLE, LARGER VERSION YOU UPLOADED. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME GODDAMN IMAGE.

*deep breaths...*
Darknemo2000 wrote:The previous thumbnails because of different formatting were rather ugly (png formatting and not quality enough resizing didn't do any good for it, and in thumbnails inserted in chapters you see white spots all over it).
PNG is lossless. Quality of the image format can't possibly get any better than lossless compression. If you want to discuss quality of the SCAN that's another matter, but attacking the image format just shows your ignorance.
Darknemo2000 wrote:In ideal world all members would stay around and the ones with HQ images would upload them once chapter is finished but it is not ideal world and sometimes you may lost HQ images because the person leaves the project during the period awaiting for the chapter or volume to finish and so on.
What HQ images are you talking about? The ones you're uploading are the final ones. They look great when viewed properly, but you seem to think they are permanently resized when you upload them, and therefore need to be uploaded again as full-size. That is not the case.
Darknemo2000 wrote:This is not Haruhi. Translations take longer, thus the situation should be changed accordingly. Your standard guidelines are more orientated to possible speedful translations (like in Haruhi's case) but ZnT, Spice and Wolf or Toradora are different in that sense because you do not have assurance about the project and it's speed.
Haruhi has been translated for a long, long time already. Speed has nothing to do with it. You're just impatient and want to charge ahead without waiting for the project to progress as it should. Doing so, I might add, without bothering to understand how any of the process or even the site itself works.


Finally, I'd like to issue a hearty "F*** you" because I am tired of arguing this with you in three different places. I will not answer your private messages and I am locking my user page. Seriously, it's like arguing with a child. Here is the text of the latest PM which I will not reply to:
Spoiler! :
Darknemo2000 wrote:They lead to exactly the same image however the quality of thumbnail is different compare the previous format of volume 3 chapter 1-3 images with the ones i have uploaded.

The previous thumbnails because of different formatting were rather ugly. Now you can say that the matter is only formatting but again what if I would have never changed the format? It would remain as ugly as before, so would it not be better to allow to upload images for ones that have HQ or suited format rather than risk to have nothing in the end (or poor quality). In ideal world all members would stay around and the ones with HQ images would upload them once chapter is finished but it is not ideal world and sometimes you may lost HQ images because the person leaves the project during the period awaiting for the chapter or volume to finish and so on.

This is not haruhi. Translations take longer, thus the situation should be cahnged accordingly. Your standart guidelines are more orientated to possible speedful translations (like in Haruhi's case) but ZnT, Spice and Wolf or Toradora are different in that sense because you do not have assurance about the project and it's speed.
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

The file png and jpg are rather similar when you bring image close but on the text itself they look different with an advantage of jpg. In the example you see above the thumbnail of my file and the thumbnail of the previous one.
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Smidge204
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

The PNG and JPG images are different scans from different people. That's the difference. The quality issue due to the quality of the original image, not the thumbnail generation or the file format.

So that completely destroys at least half your argument. Fine, use the JPG scans if they work better... probably smaller file size too. That has nothing to do with putting them into the image gallery.
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Again what if a person who has lets say jpg better scans (I have seen horrible jpg scans for SaW novels though majority are pgn) has to wait till the chapter is completed and with such slow paced series as Spice and Wolf by the time the chapter is finished you won't have anything to chose from but the pgn since the person who might have had it is now gone (off the project or just forgot about it).

Thats why to keep illustrations quality (or at least more suitable format) I find it more reasonable to not use standard haruhi orientated guidelines but rather more ZnT or Toradora ones where images are uploaded to illustration collection (both color and non color ones) so that it could be added to the finished chapter (once it is finished) later.

I think it is more suitable for slower paced series as Spice and Wolf.
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by onizuka-gto »

I've haven't been following up on the S&W project, but seeing this i have to say Darknemo that Smidge has a point.

We are lax in the enforcement of the rules, but the general STANDARD that we hope to achieve for all projects are based upon the those that were set by the Haruhi project.
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Smidge204
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

Fine, I'll convert all the images I have to JPG before I upload and insert them. I have no problems with that, and I'm certainly not going anywhere...

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Darknemo2000
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Again I am saying that SaW is different situation than Haruhi and is closer to that of znT or Toradora thats why I think the image uploading should be more like to the latter two rather than the first.

What does it cost for you to upload all images into an image collection rather than having to delete once in a while others uploading them (there is always such risk). Plus it will help to keep the quality as the ones following it may notice they have better quality ones (better resized in better format) and replace it without having to wait for a chapter to finish.

It almost sounds that you think that your version of scans are the best, which is too much of assurance, thus keeping the illustrations open for others to see and to replace if they have something better is much better idea. Don't be arrogant, there always may be someone who actually have better scans.

Besides never say never. Who knows what may happen and you would not be able to upload them anymore for one or another reason.

This way you are binding the project too much to yourself. It is not healthy thing to do. Because what if for one or the other reason you would not be able to participate in the project anymore (hey, reality does like to play ugly tricks with us so you cannot be 100 percent sure about anything in our life actually). This makes project rather vulnerable.

Again keeping the images before the actual chapters will increase the chance of receiving HQ scans from a people who might not be staying with the project for long enough time.

I just cannot see the point of not doing so.

The spoiler argument is, of course, invalid. And all others do not sound convincing either.
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

There is only ONE version of the raws in circulation. One. Your JPGs were made from my PNGs at some point, which is self-evident after comparing them... the chances that all of the images would be scanned by two different people and end up with the exact same resolutions and image dimensions is nonexistant.

The chances of someone uploading "HQ" scans are equally nonexistant. Simply put, raws of novels are actually pretty rare and nobody goes around rescanning them. Even if someone did, all they would have to do is re-upload and overwrite the existing files. The problem with that, though, is if the image dimensions are too large it will cause the Wiki to crash... so even if the planets align and someone comes up with HQ scans, we would have to downscale them anyway.

If nothing I've said has sunk in, I honestly have little else to say except "do it because I said so."

I don't like to do that, because I like this to be an open and community-centered place, but you seem hell bent on doing it wrong. Since I seem to be unable to convince you to do it right, perhaps I'll ask that you just not do it at all. You are not helping.
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Darknemo2000 »

You obviously have not seen many of Spice and Wolf novel scans or else you would not be so sure. There are the scans with the marks from the split pages there are also the markless pages of same volumes, also there are scans where with the transparent pages (of the pages on the other side). So at least three different scans exist at the moment but I cannot guarantee that there aren't more, nor can you.

Besides you are even contradicting yourself
Smidge204 wrote:The PNG and JPG images are different scans from different people. That's the difference.
And then you go saying that there are no different scans while a moment ago you were saying that they are different scans from different people.

I would choose any scan without a split mark as long as it is on high enough resolution, sadly the splitless were also rather small. But you cannot assume that higher resolution of them does not exist.

Thats why you you way too overconfident in regards of this question.

And I do not think I need to answer your argument of "Do it because I said so" as it is non argument at all.

Again you are assuming that you know what is right and what is wrong but you are not able to show me that. You just haven't provided a single note worthy argument throughout the whole discussion.

I am not going to back off about it as long as you do not provide a reasonable arguments or ban me (which seems closer at the moment).

It is painfully obvious that you never studied logic at school nor at uni because you are not able to provide sensible arguments and you tried to come up with "spoiler" argument but when it miserably failed you just did not come with anything more.

Your only argument is that you are able to lock me from editing. Wow, what a great idea of an open community. Pitiable.
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Vaelis »

onizuka-gto wrote:We are lax in the enforcement of the rules, but the general STANDARD that we hope to achieve for all projects are based upon the those that were set by the Haruhi project.
It doesn't mean that the "general STANDARD" based upon the Haruhi project is good.
And if you want an example I will say the format for the chapter title.
In Haruhi it's '''Prologue''' / '''Chapter 1''' / etc
Because of this in the full text version (http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... _Full_Text) you have all the titles in double.
If ===Prologue=== / ===Chapter 1=== / etc had been used then the problem wouldn't have appeared.

And I'm not going to speak about the format/system of the Translator's Notes http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... %27s_Notes that I completely disapprove.
The "Return to Main Page" "Jump to Chapter X" is completely useless. There is a way to go back to the exact word where you have clicked to see the translator's notes and I don't understand why it's not used.
Furthermore this "STANDART" format isn't even used for every Haruhi volumes, in a lot of them the Translator's Notes are in the talk page.


Personally I don't see any reason to not put the non color images in the illustration gallery and I like it better with them there.
Smidge204 wrote:The images belong inside the text just like they are in the printed version. End of discussion.

...

The color images appear at the beginning of the printed book, and anyone picking up a copy of the book would see them first. Therefore they are intended by the author/editor to be seen before you read the story. This is not true with the other images. This is also why we have a separate "Color Illustrations" section for them, because they belong up front by themselves.
A printed book and the wiki don't have the same constraints.

For the png/jpg problem, it's the wiki that makes a mess with the png when he does a thumbnail even if the quality of the pictures is the same.
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Dan »

Ah, so this is the argument Darko was referring to in the ZnT forum. What exactly is the problem here? Add to these so I can figure it out.

Code: Select all

Points for all images in gallery
-Ease of viewing/reference
-More likely to have updated pictures uploaded

Code: Select all

Points against all images in gallery
-Files have to be uploaded twice (Did I read that right?)
-Spoiler material
Also, here's an example of the JPG vs PNG file thumbs. The PNG had a large file size, so it's kind of screwed up unless you view the full resolution picture - but that's how PNGs will be since most are larger in file size.
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Re: Non Color Images

Post by Smidge204 »

Dan: Close but not really. Darknemo was the one who seemed to think they should all be put into the gallery because it would somehow be more work to upload them at a later date. This, of course, is false.

After the first few rounds, Darknemo's entire argument has disintegrated and the only point left standing is he feels people will be more likely to upload high-res scans in the future if they are all posted right away. I refuted this saying that the Wiki server can't handle large images (physically large, not file size large) and any HQ scans would have to be down scaled anyway, making the whole thing pointless.

We already agreed that using JPGs instead of PNGs works out better, but Darknemo misrepresented this argument by claiming the improved quality was related to putting them in the gallery rather than the nature of the file format.


Vaelis wrote:It doesn't mean that the "general STANDARD" based upon the Haruhi project is good.
Then you may propose a change to the standard. This is not the proper way to go about it, nor is saying "it's bad" good enough - you have to actually come up with something better. If you dig through the forums you'll find the original threads that discussed the format guidelines.

And if you want an example I will say the format for the chapter title.
In Haruhi it's '''Prologue''' / '''Chapter 1''' / etc
Because of this in the full text version (http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... _Full_Text) you have all the titles in double.
If ===Prologue=== / ===Chapter 1=== / etc had been used then the problem wouldn't have appeared.
Actually inserting "Chapter X" into each page is not only not part of the standard, but the standard actually recommends not doing that since page titles are automatically generated. Do not use the Haruhi project as the "Gold Standard" for formatting. While it is true that many of the format guidelines were written during and because of the Haruhi project, this doesn't mean the Haruhi project is a proper example...

And I'm not going to speak about the format/system of the Translator's Notes http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... %27s_Notes that I completely disapprove. The "Return to Main Page" "Jump to Chapter X" is completely useless. There is a way to go back to the exact word where you have clicked to see the translator's notes and I don't understand why it's not used.
In a proper lexicographical translation, notes and references would be added as an appendix. Hence, the format guidelines recommend placing the notes in their own section at the end of each volume. Having the notes in the discussion page is the "Old way" of doing it and makes them much more difficult to access.

The link-back you mention is a fair point, and probably should be fixed along with everything else.
Furthermore this "STANDART" format isn't even used for every Haruhi volumes, in a lot of them the Translator's Notes are in the talk page.
As I said, don't use Haruhi as an example. Much of the format guideline was written AFTER Haruhi was mostly complete, and needs to be applied retroactively. Spice and Wolf is a NEW project and what I am trying to get is compliance with the format guideline before it gets so far along it will never be fixed properly... like Haruhi. In other words, do it right the first time.

Personally I don't see any reason to not put the non color images in the illustration gallery and I like it better with them there. -- A printed book and the wiki don't have the same constraints.
The wiki's ability nothing to do with it. Instead it has everything to do with preserving the original layout as best we can.
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