Non Color Images

[Vaelis]

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-Files have to be uploaded twice (Did I read that right?)

No the files are only uploaded once.

If Darknemo2000 have reuploaded the files of volume 1 it's because there was a mistake with the filename format.

The first uploader didn't mention that it was the first volume in the filenames: Okami 000a.jpg, Okami 000b.jpg, etc
And it should be Okami01 000a.jpg, Okami01 000b.jpg,etc

Also, here's an example of the JPG vs PNG file thumbs. The PNG had a large file size, so it's kind of screwed up unless you view the full resolution picture - but that's how PNGs will be since most are larger in file size.

To test I've uploaded another version for the png and indeed it's still a mess
[edit: Oops I deleted the png picture but I've uploaded again dan's version]

But as I said, it's a problem with the thumbnail function of the wiki (more precisely the resizing function). It doesn't like the .png

Quality/size aren't the problem.

[Smidge204]

Actually, Darknemo was the one who uploaded the original versions (without volume label). He re-uploaded them because when I removed the links to them in the gallery page he thought I physically deleted the images as well.

Doesn't matter, the way they are now is the "proper" way and Dan was talking about something completely different.
=Smidge=

[Vaelis]

Actually, Darknemo was the one who uploaded the original versions (without volume label).

No it's Barbsicle for the color images (Okami 000a.jpg, Okami 000b.jpg, etc) and that's why Darknemo made a mistake the first time when he uploaded the rest of the pictures (Okami 037.jpg, Okami 065.jpg, etc).

The second time he used the correct filename format (I don't know if he believed you had deleted the pictures or if he wanted to correct the filenames at the same time).

[Darknemo2000]

The main reason why I have doubled up the image uploads were because of the wrong naming of the original uploader as it was Okami and not Okami01. The first time I uploaded following the standard but after uploading volume 2 and 3 I noticed the inconsistency in terms of numbers based on this first volume thats why I uploaded Okami01 second time so it would match the requirements.

I still haven't received an answer why you have to follow the in this particular case because SaW is much more similar to Toradora or ZnT.

The translation is slow and rather inconsistent. No matter what you cannot guarantee your presence through long periods, because again we live a real life and not only virtual and many things can happen.

Making image uploading depending on yourself you are making the project too vulnerable. specially with the latest lock from editing.

Personally, I suggest to change the guidelines considering that different projects have different specifics and something that is Haruhi based (so what if Majority of it was written before the guidelines, it just shows how heavily guidelines are orientated towards Haruhi project).

The number of projects grow and the guidelines should also be edited accordingly to make them more flexible because they are too heavily Haruhi based at the moment.

Yes it was my mistake thinking that uploading them into image collection and then linking them into the text creates a quality of thumbnail, however another argument still seems to be totally unanswered - that is not tying the project to your own persona and not excluding the possibility that someone may have better quality scans.

Your argument about spoilers is invalid (as color images are spoilers by themselves) and you cannot take "I will not go anywhere" or "because I said so" for a serious argument at all. Unless you are a god, which I somehow doubt, you cannot guarantee your presence throughout the project.

It wont be much of a problem if the translation would be going smoothly but it isn't. It is not kaze No Stigma (meaning it is not stalled) but it is not Haruhi either.

Thats why I do not see any logic in your arguments but "I am right because I am stronger (can block you from editing), and thus you are wrong". But any intelligent person should restrict himself from using such silly argument.

The probably most sensible argument is that you are wiling to keep it as close to original text, but then you would have to remove the back cover and place it in the end of the volume.

But again this is already different in so many aspects that I do not think that following the original format is a very good argument. Some people might want to see all illustrations at one place either, you cannot exclude this possibility just because you yourself would not.

The novels in internet and novels in book are different. And them being on internet may have a few advantage over simple book (not talking about editing or so on) so why not making a use of it?

Even if you keep all images in one pack it doesn't mean that they wont be used in actual text so it will be close to original format but it will be convenient for the ones who want to check just images (maybe to check if they have better version or just to browse through them).

[Smidge204]

I still haven't received an answer why you have to follow the in this particular case because SaW is much more similar to Toradora or ZnT.

Those two projects are ALSO doing it wrong. I'm doing this with S&W for two reasons: 1) I have a personal interest in this project (I don't find either ZnT or Toradora to be that interesting) and 2) I caught it early enough to easily fix it. I want to make sure it's done right BEFORE it gets done wrong, not go back and fix it all after the fact.

The fact that two other projects are doing it wrong is not a valid excuse to do this one wrong too.

The translation is slow and rather inconsistent. No matter what you cannot guarantee your presence through long periods, because again we live a real life and not only virtual and many things can happen.

You can't guarantee the SITE'S presence through long periods. This entire argument is based on a fear that somehow everyone involved with the project will vanish and make it impossible for anyone else to continue. Do you honestly think that's possible? Do you honestly think that any one person, or even a half dozen people, leaving this project would make it impossible for someone else to continue where they left off?

Making image uploading depending on yourself you are making the project too vulnerable. specially with the latest lock from editing.

I am not making the process dependent solely on me. I am trying to make you understand that it is not necessary for you (or anyone else) do do what you are doing. When I say "I'll do it" I am using myself as an example. (Even though I will literally do it if it needs to be done)

Personally, I suggest to change the guidelines considering that different projects have different specifics and something that is Haruhi based (so what if Majority of it was written before the guidelines, it just shows how heavily guidelines are orientated towards Haruhi project).

So do you want to use Haruhi as a basis or not? The format guidelines have been written to be very generic. You seem to both want to use Haruhi as a basis and complain how Haruhi is unique and shouldn't be used as an example...

The number of projects grow and the guidelines should also be edited accordingly to make them more flexible because they are too heavily Haruhi based at the moment.

And they have been. The format guidelines are actually quite different than the original drafts that were almost entirely Haruhi-based. They were written in anticipation that there would be many future projects.

S&W is not significantly different from Haruhi anyway. You like to cite translation speed but that has no meaning to the Internet.

Yes it was my mistake thinking that uploading them into image collection and then linking them into the text creates a quality of thumbnail, however another argument still seems to be totally unanswered - that is not tying the project to your own persona and not excluding the possibility that someone may have better quality scans.

I answered this already, twice. We agreed that the JPGs scale better than the PNGs. However the limitations of the server do not allow for "high quality" scans - at least scans that are significantly higher resolution than the ones we have now. This is a physical limit of the host and something I have no control over. And HQ scans will need to be scaled down in order to be uploaded, which defeats the purpose of using HQ scans.

Your argument about spoilers is invalid (as color images are spoilers by themselves) and you cannot take "I will not go anywhere" or "because I said so" for a serious argument at all. Unless you are a god, which I somehow doubt, you cannot guarantee your presence throughout the project.

The color images are not spoilers any more than a standard preview. They were put there by the publisher and are intended to be seen first. If the publisher wanted the B&W images to be seen first they would also be at the beginning of the book. They are not because they were intended to be viewed in context.

Thats why I do not see any logic in your arguments but "I am right because I am stronger (can block you from editing), and thus you are wrong". But any intelligent person should restrict himself from using such silly argument.

Part of my job is to enforce standards. My argument of "because I said so" is just as more valid than your "because I want it that way" (and I said I hate using that method, y'know.) If you want to deviate from the established standard, then you discuss it FIRST. You don't just rearrange things as you see fit, especially when you aren't familiar with the established standards. Unfortunately we're having the discussion now, after it's all gotten out of hand.

Undoing the edits of TWO administrators knowing full well that the administrators did not want those edits is vandalism. I protected those pages to prevent further vandalism by you.

The probably most sensible argument is that you are wiling to keep it as close to original text, but then you would have to remove the back cover and place it in the end of the volume.

Propose that as an alteration to the format guideline, then.

But again this is already different in so many aspects that I do not think that following the original format is a very good argument.

You're right, it's already wrong so let's not try and fix it - just redefine what's "right" because that's easier. It's not like we spent any time or effort discussing and refining the current guidelines so they could actually be applied.


Everything else in that post is purely subjective on your part.
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

If it is wrong then it should be fixed unless your purpose is to make SaW as miserable as possible.

You do understand that by locking it up and preventing from uploading non color images you are already making it very very risky.

Are you sure that others will have the scans suitable? What if you are gone? Many things do happen you know, you cannot be really sure.

Uploading images you have is a good way of preventing that even if you were not able to participate in this project anymore the scans and preferable HQ ones (again with HQ ones i have in mind suited for Wiki, so most probably, still resized) would still remain. It would also help with the circulation of images, though you are pretty sure that there is only one scans (even if you were contradicting yourself with previous answer about it being "different scans by different people") you cannot be really sure of that either.

Having them all placed would sped up editing too because it is no secret that some editors do not have the scans at all, but this way, even without having the scans they can still add images because they are already uploaded and not wait for a few chosen ones with scans to appear and upload them (maybe much much later, if at all).

Plus some people do like to see all images in one place (you can question around if you do not believe me) thus it would be more convenient this way too. Considering that the thumbnails are still in the text it would not disturb the story at all.

Even not all of the translators may have a good quality scans, since usually the txt versions do not have HQ scans (even by the wiki standards) if any at all.

Color images are based on chapters and they are spoilers, books simply do not have the ability to place them at two different places so it is normal that the non-color ones are placed in the text while the color ones are placed outside it to capture the reader, but they are spoilers by themselves as they are directly connected with an events in the novels).

You mostly argue that it has to be because it has to be, but such stagnated type of thinking should be changed considering that there are more projects and some of them have different situations.

I do not want to follow Haruhi based guidelines (as they are based on Haruhi and even if they were orientated for the future they are still based on this project thus sometimes they are just not flexible enough).

Not allowing any flexibility or innovations is not the best way to keep project alive. SaW is already 'weird' one in terms of translating (specially the first volume) so not following guidelines does not seem so out of place to begin with considering that it is not following usual translation standards either.

How about making a poll concerning this question?

[Matt122004]

Ok, my opinion has been asked to be given, and I'm giving it.

The illutations should be handled like they are on ZNT


b+w illustrations should be with the color.

I think its very conveniant that way.

That is my opinion.

-Matt

[Smidge204]

For the record, I was the one who asked Matt's opinion. Since he's listed as the project supervisor, his opinion carries more weight than most others. Here's the discussion in full:

Spoiler! :

You are currently listed as the project supervisor for "Spice and Wolf" - is this accurate?

=Smidge=

I was at one time, was trying to get translators, etc..

But I guess you could remove that now, since the project has taken control of itself.

-Matt

Well, I don't know if you noticed but there's something of a debate going on regarding how the images are to be laid out. There's basically two opinions on the table:

1) Put *ALL* images from the book (including B&W images from within the text) into the "Color Illustrations" section
2) Only put the B&W images as inline images

If you still feel connected to the project at all, I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter. I've also asked Onizuka for his input, and between the two of you I'll use that as a solution.
=Smidge=

In reply he posted as above.

I also asked Onizuka-GTO, who is listed as the project admin. This is how it went down:

Spoiler! :

I think I can trust you for an unbiased opinion. You put your name down for project admin on the Spice and Wolf page, so which way do you want to go regarding the image debacle?

I'm asking you and Matt. Between the two of you I'll use that as a definitive answer to solve things.
=Smidge=

Dear Smidge,

From what i can understand of the situation, (correct me if I am wrong)

Is that there is a difference of opinion, over the "quality" of the illustration uploaded on the wiki with the two graphic formats using .jpg and .png and listing of the "thumbnail" of the images in the illustration page.

In regards to the first situation (assuming i got all this right.) quality of the images isn't much of a factor.

They are just there for an overall "complete" package, first and foremost the focus should be on the script and less on the images. After all this is about a novel, not a manga.

the same goes for the situation of the gallery pages.

while you know my opinion on the general standard i wish to bring to all projects on Baka-Tsuki, it is a never-a-less based upon those of use who wish to maintain this standard.

I'm lax on the enforcement on the speed of the progress (lack of time these days, to be honest)

This means that while i give general allowance to take into account for the difference circumstances of each project, they still make a steady progress towards a set standard to ensure a minimum line and never deliberately deviate.

We are for the people, but we never said it was the democratic type....

but i'm glad to see you working on this, despite our constructive differences, i trust your personal decision over the formatting of the project as you see fit.

best regards,

oni

All hail our ambiguous leader...

=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

Mind you that some other projects are used to upload non-color images together with color ones and no one really complained. What is more the edition of chapters (in terms of form as in including images) go faster as well, because basically any editor can include image into the text, not having to wait for the few respective ones that have the scans.

Again, this way the project doesn't get bound to single people who have the scans and again some people do like to see all illustrations (non color images included) in one pack rather than to have to search them throughout the text. Yes it is not strictly following original format but it is more convenient this way too.

Guidelines should be flexible enough to adjust some projects. No one is saying to change everything about it, but some things can be changed and I view non-color image inclusion together with color ones as one of changes that can and should be made.

I am still unclear what your answer is though...

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Spoiler! :

Dear Smidge,

From what i can understand of the situation, (correct me if I am wrong)

Is that there is a difference of opinion, over the "quality" of the illustration uploaded on the wiki with the two graphic formats using .jpg and .png and listing of the "thumbnail" of the images in the illustration page.

In regards to the first situation (assuming i got all this right.) quality of the images isn't much of a factor.

They are just there for an overall "complete" package, first and foremost the focus should be on the script and less on the images. After all this is about a novel, not a manga.

the same goes for the situation of the gallery pages.

while you know my opinion on the general standard i wish to bring to all projects on Baka-Tsuki, it is a never-a-less based upon those of use who wish to maintain this standard.

I'm lax on the enforcement on the speed of the progress (lack of time these days, to be honest)

This means that while i give general allowance to take into account for the difference circumstances of each project, they still make a steady progress towards a set standard to ensure a minimum line and never deliberately deviate.

We are for the people, but we never said it was the democratic type....

but i'm glad to see you working on this, despite our constructive differences, i trust your personal decision over the formatting of the project as you see fit.

best regards,

oni

Wow. That is a pro way of weaseling out of the question. *tips his hat to Oni*

My opinion is that we should include all images in the "Color Images" section, as well as possibly just rename it to "Novel Images" or just "Images" even. Even if the images are included in the chapter pages they should be displayed in the "Image" section as well. So essentially every image from that volume of the novel will be in the "Image" section. Higher quality / size image copies taking the spot over lower quality versions of an image.

That is my two cents. I didn't get a chance to go back and read what this whole topic was about but I hope that touched upon the problem.

[barbsicle]

looks like i've been missing out on alot.

well first off, my apologies. i think part of my doing (the uploading with wrong file names) added to the flame of this conflict. i didn't really think from page 1 of this thread that it would escalate into such a big thing.

but importantly, i, as a translator, will follow what the supervisor and/or guidelines say. even though it may be more tedious, that's what i volunteered for in the first place right? if we don't like how it works, we just send a suggestion. if it gets rejected, then that's the end of it. after all, they have the bigger say. if they weren't there, this project wouldn't have started in the first place.

it's the age of the internet. i can't read a single word of japanese and yet i can come into possession of raws (which is a touchy subject i know so i won't go any further). it just shows that you can if you try.

so that's just my opinion from a translator's point of view. i believe judgment (who's working on the volume 3 chapters) is grateful for the upload of the images and now that the thumbnail quality has improved due to change of image format. but in the end it is not my say, and i will continue following the guidelines as well as whatever matt says.

so yeah, i apologise again. and that's just my opinion. spice and wolf is a wonderful novel. let's set aside the differences and just enjoy making it a wonderful novel for everyone.

[Darknemo2000]

The argument is the matter of convenience. The guidelines that are right now are not as convenient as they could be. And if you see a place that can be improved why not to be flexible and improve?

It is not that big but it gives more opportunities as as an editor you do not need to have the scans, I know you can get them but not always and not always they are of a good quality. Besides some wont bother as they do not understand a word in Japanese anyway.

Lets say when I edit ZnT novels I do not need to browse through my computer trying to search the illustration and then upload it - I just go to Vaelis uploaded pack find the needed one and link it to the text. Less bother and faster.

You say to stick to the guidelines but do not say as to why we should do so - it is not a bible, it didn't come from god, was made by people who can make mistakes or not foresee everything, more so it was based mostly on one of the novels that in terms of translation is massively different from many of the projects. In regards to all this some editions may be useful. And adding all pictures together may be one of that useful addition. Because this allow you to have all images in one place and not do the needless browsing around the text and also includes the possibility to gain better scans (as always better are the ones that match Wiki standards so not too big one way or the other but there may be better ones even if the size is similar like without split lines or so on).

[Mies]

You're still arguing about this after the Project Supervisor and the Chief Editor said no? Troll much?

Think of it this way: They did consider your option, accepting two of your points as well (if I'm keeping count correctly), but what is convenient to you is not so for the Baka-Tsuki system. The philosophy behind the open translation project is to be open for all contributions, but that does not state that all contributions are accepted and approved the instant someone does something because it could have negative connotations or cause a organization disaster or has some administrivia turmoil for whatever Acts-of-God you can think of. If it was the case that everything was accepted, moderation and administration would not need to exist.

Also, Images in a light novel, as onizuka-gto explained, are not the foremost focus of projects. Don't get me wrong, they are important, but not quite as quintessential as the translated text. There is no need to bring up so much drama just for the sake of getting all of the images up in one go, and then placing them outside the novel in the order the text did not intend to do.

Even if it is to get up "high quality" scans a quickly as possible so that it's ready for the script when it is done, what's the point? It's like releasing a HQ raw of an animation and not giving the translation subs until much later. It's just not logical, as images complement the text, not the other way around.


Don't get me wrong, I do see what you're saying, and I could see benefits from doing so, but I'm doubting the level of "convenience" it will actually bring a project.

[Darknemo2000]

Actually project supervisor said yes, if you are not following, ZnT image system is the same as suggested here. And GTO didn't say anything in particular he just wiggled his way out without saying 'yes" or "no" so if anything such changes of SaW seems more on the positive side rather than on negative one.

And no-one said to remove text, the text is still the focus, however, image part could still be done better. It would not steal the focus of the text, if you think otherwise go to Toradora or ZnT examples and you will see that text is still the main focus. The changes is just to make it more convenient and I haven't seen any really good arguments against it so far. Because again it is not meant to take the focus it is just meant to make it more convenient, speed up edition and not be so dependent on a few HQ scans holders.

If you are so much against pictures then offer to take them away, but I do not think that anyone would agree with that. Images do not take focus of the text, it is silly to think that way, they are meant to go together with the text and they do, just because they are stored together for better convenience doesn't mean that you will stop reading. You are just given the chance to look through them (and download them) without need to browse throughout the text and you can edit them into the text even if you do not have them.

[Mies]

HOLY S***, Smidge204 is *not* the one in charge of Spice and Wolf. That's not an embarrassing mistake at all. I apologize and retract my earlier comment. I need to learn how to open my eyes a bit bigger.

On a side note: I never said anything about removing the text, or the pictures at that. I simply stated that the pictures /complement/ the text. It isn't really all that important to the translation of the novel, as the primary content is the text; after all, lightnovels are not manga. At the same time, images are part of the novel and should be there. My mind just puts images on the postscript rather than the mainmatter, due to the target of the media in use.

Again, sorry about that comment. I knew I should have kept my bloody mouth shut...