Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

[barbsicle]

i know i'm going to end up making everyone's life difficult if i say i agree but i wouldn't mind if you did "I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines".

after all, it's a compromise for the "agree" side too. both sides have to compromise if the compromise is going to work out, but then again i'm going into more unwanted things so yes.

This is my vote:
"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree"

sorry if i made things complicated or something. but i might as well take the opportunity to say that it is a compromise on the "agree" side as well. so yeah.


Barbs.

P.S. thanks for pm'ing me const, really busy these days heheh.

[Smidge204]

I think you need to reduce the qouta from the 20 people to 16 as simply the interest in this poll will without a doubt drop. Maybe I am overly pessimistic but I do not think 20 votes are realistic in todays circumstances.

total_votes.jpg

Sounds more like "I want the minimum number of votes to be the same as the number of people who voted in my favor"

So, Smidge, what's your choice?

Neither. Part of the problem with all the discussion on how the new poll will be formatted is you are creating a trap. I'm glad Oni has stepped in to make the new poll as he's not likely to engineer the phrasing to be bias.



Yet another take on it: Darknemo's (seemingly only) valid point for wanting to do this is to safeguard against the person who has the images disappearing. I still feel it's kind of like getting struck by lightning but I suppose it's still a valid argument...

In that vein, why not upload all the images like he's so keen on doing (so they are archived on the server) but make new pages for each chapter and place them there before the text is translated. Done properly this would include a note about what page the image appears on so they can be properly placed as the text is added. Less work for the editors.

On top of that, Create a category for each project, and tag the images accordingly. You could then provide a link to the category and everything is automagically generated. For example, in the image description include [[Category:Spice and Wolf B&W Images]]. Then link to [[:Category:Spice_and_Wolf_B&W_Images|B&W Images]]. This handles the creation of the galleries for you, and they don't have to be hard-linked ANYWHERE until they are ready to place. They will be easy to access as a group for anyone who wants them (easier, as it will be linked from more places) and will aid in organization from being grouped on a deeper level then just being lumped into a gallery page.

Under this system, You won't have to worry about one person somehow having all the images and then dying (Should make Darknemo happy), you'll still have easy access to a complete list of images (Should make people like Krikit happy), but you won't necessarily violate the original layout (which would make me happy 'cause I'm a purist like that).
=Smidge=

[onizuka-gto]

I think you need to reduce the qouta from the 20 people to 16 as simply the interest in this poll will without a doubt drop. Maybe I am overly pessimistic but I do not think 20 votes are realistic in todays circumstances.

Also what about the votes of this poll? Are you letting it go to waste? In this case I like Krikits suggestion more as at least it won't let the the votes go to waste and the details do not matter would not be counted as an actual solution but just a general support of the position.

Also what do you mean "clear majority" over the rest? You mean +2 votes over the second decision or +2 votes over all other option votes combined? if in second case then there is no chance of that to happen.

Also how about if the revoting would be needed as +2 won't be acquired then in revoting leaving only two top voted options?

Valid questions.

to answer you're first, 20 votes minimum was based upon this current vote.
we have an overall of 30 votes.

Therefore it was reasonable to expect at leased 20 votes combined.

considering it is more or less 2/3.

However, it was either that or leave it at the original number, which was 17.

This is rather a popular project, and it will take at leased a month, considering we will get at leased 13 votes initially from the members here, you will only need an additional vote of 7 other members who would more or less represent the "silent" majority of the wiki and those forum reading lurker.

I'm sure you will have no problem gaining those additional votes.

For your second question, the +2 votes majority is for the individual selection over any other.

i.e.

A. 7 votes

B. 9 Votes

C: 5 Votes

option B wins this vote by a majority of +2 over the other

[Const2k]

...the most votes will get the details do not matter option as simply the interest is very likely to drop.. It is not 100 percent sure but very very likely to happen.

We'll wait and see.

And Krikit, I think your suggestion does sound logical but i do not know if others would agree with it.

hmmm....is it maybe because the "1st place" on the poll isn't really "1st place?"

That's because IMHO it's excessively complex and doesn't provide an exact answer to "what should we do?" question.

I will be making a new poll based upon the selectable options:
"I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
"I agree, use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
"I disagree, use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY"
"I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines"

In other words, you're remaking current poll without "I do not know" option, splitting "I (dis)agree" options into two and leaving no room for fresh ideas (despite what's happened to current poll)? I'd like to see reasons behind this, if possible.

• Voting rules are:
• Voting will last one month (30 days)
• One Vote only per member (One I.P)
• Votes are changeable within the allocated time
• Minimum overall number of votes required is 20
• Only one outcome is acceptable, failure will result in a re-vote
• The selection must win by a clear majority of two votes over the rest, failure will result in a re-vote
• The winning option will be implement with immediate effect upon satisfying all the above points

Mostly OK for me, but they're unscalable: no matter how (un)important question is, it will take 30 days to decide. How about time interval for poll's creator to choose from? I'd say 7-30 days should be enough. I don't like fixed number of votes as well. Wide-scale elections AFAIK are based on population percentage; similarly to this, we could count active users. For example, now we have 193 users with 10+ posts (out of 719 registered). Won't 10% of all users with 10+ posts be more "elastic" rather than rigid "17" or "20"?

i know i'm going to end up making everyone's life difficult if i say i agree but i wouldn't mind if you did "I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines"[...]
This is my vote:
"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree"

That means -1 to generic "I agree" and +1 to "make two pages". Let's recalculate...

"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree" - 9 = 17 - 9 = 8
"Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" +5
"Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" +3
"I disagree, details don't matter" = "I disagree" - 2 = 12 - 2 = 10
"Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" +2
"Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" +1

I'm glad Oni has stepped in to make the new poll as he's not likely to engineer the phrasing to be bias.

If you mean poll choices, right now oni is going to use my variants. Just a side note, in case you're implying that I'm biased.

In that vein, why not upload all the images like he's so keen on doing (so they are archived on the server) but make new pages for each chapter and place them there before the text is translated. Done properly this would include a note about what page the image appears on so they can be properly placed as the text is added. Less work for the editors.

Being an editor, I can't help but agree Nice idea to be put into general guidelines, I'd say. However, this is a bit off-topic.

On top of that, Create a category for each project, and tag the images accordingly. You could then provide a link to the category and everything is automagically generated.

Man, I like this typo.. Gonna steal it
More seriously, if I got it right, it's just a technical shortcut to make gallery of project's B&W images anywhere on wiki. That's all nice and good, but this won't solve the problem of LOCATION of this gallery (BTW, does that mean that you're switching from "like in SHnY" to "two pages" idea?)

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Vote:

"I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"

[Const2k]

Thanks, TheGiftedMonkey. Seeing

Is it possible to make an Illustrations page for all the color/non-color illustrations, but have a divider or two separate sections on that page to sort them?

...as your last post in this thread, I placed you on "single page". Fixing that...

"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree" - 9 = 17 - 9 = 8
"Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" +6
"Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" +2
"I disagree, details don't matter" = "I disagree" - 2 = 12 - 2 = 10
"Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" +2
"Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" +1

[Smidge204]

"Automagically" is not a typo.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not strictly opposed to a page with a collection of B&W images, but I *am* opposed to diverging from the original format to accommodate it. Place it at the end, for example:

Book Title: Volume Foo
--Cover art and color illustrations
--Chapter 1
--Chapter 2
--..
--Translator's Notes
--Volume Foo Artwork Gallery (or similar title)

Like that. The category thing just makes the whole process more standardized and accessible.
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

Not really Smidge (by the way the number of votes is 17 now anyway). Another thing is that only an idiot would hope to get another eqoal number of yes votes in the revoting that takes right after the voting... Personally I would expect the yes votes to decrease as the no votes either...

All what I am saying that it is very possible that the number of votes will not reach 30 in the next voting. And I am pessimistic about it reaching even 20 as again GTO you should not forget that now the situation is different from the way it was a month ago, as simply the possibility is that it will be more difficult to attract the attention needed once again from the users that do not have much time to waste voting for the same issue twice thats why i said decreasing the quota. If you want it can be 12 votes if you want so that it would match the disagree votes but such quota would be too small as it seems. my main argument for decreasing the quota number in this particular case is taht we are in not standard situation as we are revoting right after the voting.

Const2k suggestion is like always pretty logical - we have 193 users with 10+ posts and if we use 10 percent of them as quota we would get the 19,3 vote quota which would make it in to the 19 or 20 if you are to round down 0,3 into 1. It all is ok but the fact that we are in revoting situation right after one voting ended thus attracting the attention might not be so easy as it was in the beginning.

[Jumpyshoes]

I was asked for my opinion on this again. Honestly, I don't care or have time to care. I've been busy all this last month and will be busy for some time. Feel free to ignore my opinion.

[Darknemo2000]

Jumpy illustrates my fears taht the same thing can happen with more others too as it is revoting instead of voting thus it is very likely for others to feel that we are beating a dead-horse , they voted it before and would not want to waste anymore time of it.


Concerning this, GTO maybe you could release the revoting of this issue from the quota? I mean we already received the necessarily amount of votes in first voting, and now we are voting to clear the issue that came out of the first voting, but we should not ignore the fact that the first voting did match the quota criteria and that we still stay on the same issue just with more options.

[Smidge204]

Gee, Jumpy's reaction couldn't have anything to do with what you said to him, huh?

=Smidge=

[onizuka-gto]

My decision is that there will still be a re-vote.

But after consideration of the recent points made, some of the points are slowly bringing me around, (i.e. All the shouting from the dissidents outside my filthy-rich palace is getting hard to ignore/finger hover briefly over the firing squad dispatch button)

However i will wish to take a day to deliberate before i make any decision (can't think right now. need sleep)

For the moment i will delay the closing of this thread and posting of the new poll.

So until then, take a break, socialize with the comrade palace guards, try to avoid the Secret Police and the Tanks, Worship the picture/statues of the Big Boss etc etc etc etc etc.

[Darknemo2000]

Smidge, If you forgot jumpy first started to go personal flaming (as my OP even if it had biased position was not meant to be flaming anyone in persona) to which I responded with a flame back, however, his second post was fairly normal and I also answered him without trying to flame him down. So no, it more seems just like the issue itself became more of a time waste as it just worn out with our argues against each other. It doesn't mean that it is not actual (30 votes seem to confirm that is important enough) but simply with time less people are willing to go back beating a what it starts to look a dead horse.

[Const2k]

"Automagically" is not a typo.

Okay then. It's not too strange for Russian not to know this. Especially when "t" and "g" keys are very close.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not strictly opposed to a page with a collection of B&W images, but I *am* opposed to diverging from the original format to accommodate it. Place it at the end[...]

That makes your vote fall into "two pages" category, formerly being in "like in SHnY".
And thanks for reply, Jumpyshoes, though it doesn't contribute to "extended" poll.

Which ATM looks like (current results can't be interpreted in single way, but they let us assume votes' distribution in an upcoming poll, if any):
"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree" - 9 = 17 - 9 = 8
"Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" +6
"Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" +2
"I disagree, details don't matter" = "I disagree" - 2 = 12 - 2 = 10
"Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" +3
"Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" +0
(numbers +n are relative since we don't know how votes are distributed in "generic" options)

Unfortunately for it, my presence is required in the country right now (I'm leaving in less than hour), and this will take 3-5 days. No steady GPRS (let alone EDGE and WiFi) available there means I'll be offline and miss the most important part of story. But that doen't mean my arguments and questions can be ignored. Feel free to discuss their strong/weak points and/or suggest better ones.
We can't drag this matter on for eternity.

[barbsicle]

i know i'm going to end up making everyone's life difficult if i say i agree but i wouldn't mind if you did "I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines"[...]
This is my vote:
"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree"

That means -1 to generic "I agree" and +1 to "make two pages". Let's recalculate...

erm well actually i meant it as "I agree", but i don't mind the "make two pages" option either which is an ultimate clash.
either way if you choose to recalculate my vote or not it does not matter because really i am a man of no preferences. which makes things hard yes i know i apologise once again.
so yeah.

so sorry.

Barbs.