Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

General discussion related to this novel series

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Do you agree with changes?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:28 am

I agree
18
58%
I disagree
12
39%
I do not know
1
3%
 
Total votes: 31

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Darknemo2000
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Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

As you may already know, there were some...arguments regarding the way images are uploaded in SaW project.

Right now we are using the standard system. I am suggesting it to change to the system used in Zero No Tsukaima, Toradora! or Kaze No Stigma one.

Basically the argue runs that non-color images should not be uploaded in the image section (that each volume has) and placed only directly in the text.

I am suggesting to change it so that all non-color images would be placed together with the color images in the same illustration section and later linked into the text (it would not affect the way the text looks or the image look).

The reasons behind this:

A) This way we would give users more freedom. As some of the users might be willing to look at the illustrations first to decide weather they like it or not. Keeping them all in one bunch would allow him to have better view at them without wasting onces time and would help you to download all images faster.

B) This also also ensures a better circulation of images. Like lets say someone may have HQ scans and seeing low quality uploaded replace them with better ones. yes, wiki restriction would not allow you to get overboard as there are limits in size but different scans can still be scanned differently, like one can be transparent, have the tear off lines and so on. This would ensure that you can have highest possible quality ones at the moment.

C) We know that teaser projects work as sort of advertisement to attract attention (and maybe possible translators). Having images uploaded even if none of that particular volume text has been translated allows may attract the attention of potential translator/editor as he sees hmm interesting images maybe I should try to give a go?

Yes the main focus of B-T should always be text, but lets be realistic images are more captivating eyes thus it may also captivate an interest with a volume that barely has any chapters translated.

D) Editors or translators do not have to have the actual scans to upload image. Since all images would be placed in one section beforehand, you can just throw a link into a text. It is very convenient for people who do not have scans but are still editors, or translators who have poor quality images or none at all and just text.

It ensures that chapter gains an attractive look more quickly. For comparison we can compare the speed that images are uploaded in SaW and in Toradora. In Toradora which is using the new image storing way the images are uploaded into the text much faster as simply you are not dependent on the people who have scans. Scans are uploaded already so all you have to do is to link that, while in old way you would still have to wait for those few selected ones that have the scans to come and upload the image.

E) Project becomes less bound to a person with scans. In the old way it is dependent on the person with scans so lets say what if a person with HQ scans leaves and all others left have LQ ones or none at all. If we were using the changes, a person would upload his scans and even if he is gone from B-T, project itself would not have to suffer.

Well those are the basic arguments for the changes. Now, what are arguments for the old way:

A) Smidge204 said so

B) It follows old book format more closely.

C) The non-color iamges uploaded spoils info (weird but color images that in Saw case do reflect what happens in the chapter, doesn't).

D) It gives more focus on the text rather than on images - as now you have to browse through text and separate chapters just to fish-out those few images.

Now it is up for you to decide if you want the changes or now. Please feel free to discuss (though we have had loooong discussion already).
Last edited by onizuka-gto on Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Change polls to allow re-votes to reflect debate opinons
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by TheGiftedMonkey »

As always, I'm completely for this change. 8)
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Smidge204
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Smidge204 »

Yes sir, no bias here. Nope.

Maybe if these were the reasons you presented from the start it would have gone smoother. Before voting I encourage everyone to read the history behind this.

Edit: I also thought I'd point out that I am abstaining from voting because I'm clearly biased. Darknemo2000 seems to not have any such scruples.

Edit:

If you agree with fiendmaw's compromise proposal:
fiendmaw wrote:What you can do to please both parties,is to introduce a non-color gallery,to a total of two galleries,but that's too much of a hassle.
Then VOTE NO on this poll. We can amend the proposed change and re-vote to include the compromise.

(It is also worth noting that you can change your vote at any time.)
=Smidge=
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Well you yourself gave me such an reason ("because I say so") when i asked for the reasons for the old way.

And yep i do not have any scruples. I am surprised you do.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

Well, i'll throw in my vote regardlessly, and it's a resounding

"I don't know"

So, i guess that makes me neutral. so i make a final decision at the end of this petition.

I'll more or less count this thread as the opening window for Darknemo2000 to submit a draft for a project specific guidelines,
you have 30 days to have at leased 10 comrade votes in favour, to bring any new specifics though.

I will check in now and again to see how the debate is going. so good luck to both our yays and nays.

All decisions will be final and just remember you will have a chance to resubmit the draft if you fail.

( but it won't help if it's the same one that got rejected.)

:)

haruhi. i do love red tape.

*rolls in it*

viva bureaucracy!

:roll:
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Vaelis »

*agree with the change*
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Jumpyshoes »

Darknemo2000 wrote:The reasons behind this:

A) This way we would give users more freedom. As some of the users might be willing to look at the illustrations first to decide weather they like it or not. Keeping them all in one bunch would allow him to have better view at them without wasting onces time and would help you to download all images faster.

B) This also also ensures a better circulation of images. Like lets say someone may have HQ scans and seeing low quality uploaded replace them with better ones. yes, wiki restriction would not allow you to get overboard as there are limits in size but different scans can still be scanned differently, like one can be transparent, have the tear off lines and so on. This would ensure that you can have highest possible quality ones at the moment.

C) We know that teaser projects work as sort of advertisement to attract attention (and maybe possible translators). Having images uploaded even if none of that particular volume text has been translated allows may attract the attention of potential translator/editor as he sees hmm interesting images maybe I should try to give a go?

Yes the main focus of B-T should always be text, but lets be realistic images are more captivating eyes thus it may also captivate an interest with a volume that barely has any chapters translated.

D) Editors or translators do not have to have the actual scans to upload image. Since all images would be placed in one section beforehand, you can just throw a link into a text. It is very convenient for people who do not have scans but are still editors, or translators who have poor quality images or none at all and just text.

It ensures that chapter gains an attractive look more quickly. For comparison we can compare the speed that images are uploaded in SaW and in Toradora. In Toradora which is using the new image storing way the images are uploaded into the text much faster as simply you are not dependent on the people who have scans. Scans are uploaded already so all you have to do is to link that, while in old way you would still have to wait for those few selected ones that have the scans to come and upload the image.

E) Project becomes less bound to a person with scans. In the old way it is dependent on the person with scans so lets say what if a person with HQ scans leaves and all others left have LQ ones or none at all. If we were using the changes, a person would upload his scans and even if he is gone from B-T, project itself would not have to suffer.
A) What freedom? Is scrolling down a page SO MUCH HARDER than clicking links?

B) What does this have to do with anything? If they like the series enough to buy the books, rip it up, and scan it, they're going to read the text. And look at the images. In the text. What's the point of having a gallery? It also follows the original format of the book more closely.

C) You seem to think translating is a "Oh hmm... sound interesting, let's do this." Sorry to break it to you, it isn't. Translating a novel requires dedication and ability. If they don't like it (not talking about machine translations here, those are for brain dead people), they aren't going to work on it; pretty pictures isn't going to change their mind. At least not for more than one or two chapters.

D) "you can just throw a link into a text." Uhh... you have never used a wiki. RTFM, GTFO.

E) What are you talking about. You can upload images WHENEVER you want to. It's not bound to anyone anyways.

Also, lolz Smidge owned you in the other thread.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Vaelis »

I'm sorry to say this Jumpyshoes but for the points A), B), D) and E) I don't understand the relation between what Darknemo2000 said and what you said :?
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Lol, Jumpyshoes from what planet you are from? Maybe come back to earth at least on vacations?

A) Yes, it is. Surprised? Try some english dictionary and try the word "convenience" you probably never heard of it but you could try to imagine what it means. This is where it suits.

B) Some people like with the text have some quality in images as well. For you it doesn't matter if an image looks like it was printed on toilet paper but some of us do. Surprise, surprise.

C) Let me ask how much you have yourself translated? Before you go to such insulting comment about braindead people check what you have done and what others did, k?

Right now I am the only active ZnT translator. And I am one of those Braindead people as you call. I have already translated 10 chapters no-one ever complained about low quality. I actually edit some of the normal translators translations. I use two machine translators and 8 dictionaries. So i guess I do not have any determination and just translate it by "Oh hmm... sound interesting, let's do this." Since after all all others are either inactive or taking a break, and since I lack of determination I am still with it.

Pretty pictures can grab ones attention. You can say "For such shallow reason? Losers? Won't hold much and be gone in an instant.."

Maybe but it is still better to have chapters translated by such losers who will be gone because of the lack of determination and love for pretty pictures or braindead people than having ones like you, talking highly about braindead people, but not able to produce even the slightest translation.

D) You can read? I am shocked. Of course learning the casual language expressions are still beyond you, but don't worry. As an imbecile you are doing fine.

E) Ah seems like you cannot read after all.

Lolz and i own you in this one.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by TheGiftedMonkey »

Alright, now that we've got the lolz and insults out of the way, please keep it about the topic at hand.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Alright, sorry about this one, but his comment was really offensive. And I am not one of those who turn the other cheek... Sadly...
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by TheDefend »

Agree :P


Jumpy = Fail
Nemo = Win! XP
though i just return to forum this week, i though jumpy has been exiled from this forum :D
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Jumpyshoes »

A) If you think so, I can't make you think otherwise. I don't think clicking the page down button or moving a finger is so much effort.

B) Printed on toilet paper? What are you talking about? If you're talking about the thumbnails, those are dynamically generated for each time it's placed on the wiki. If the person reading it thinks like toilet paper, they can spend another thirty seconds to click on the link and take a look at the real picture. If the real picture sucks, they can upload a better scan whenever they want.

TGM - Does not pertain to the topic at hand.
Spoiler! :
C) No, I haven't. But, I have talked to 4-5 translators and they all said 1) Atlas sucks and 2) If they don't like the project, they will either not do it, or they will do it very slowly. Very very slowly. Also, every person I have talked to that has used Atlas (this numbers in the dozens just for your information), says that it sucks. In fact, if you machine translate things, why not just stick the entire novel through babelfish? It'll be about the same, just slightly worse. I like the quality of my translations.
D) Yes, I can read, sorry to break it to you. Unfortunately, you still have never used a wiki, and you still don't know how things work. Sorry to break it to you, people can upload scans whenever they want. Yes, surprising, you don't need a link to upload a scan. Throwing a link in the text is just typing a few more brackets. Oh the pain.

E) If they leave, you can't get scans for further volumes anyways. Also, when has anyone been credited for uploading scan? As far as I know, never. Either way, if someone has scans, uploading will require little to no effort. Having a place for all scans won't make the project not "dependent on the person with scans". If push comes to shove, just live with it and don't have any scans. The text is the most important part anyways.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

TheDefend wrote: though i just return to forum this week, i though jumpy has been exiled from this forum :D
Actually i though Jumpy exiled YOU from the Forum, he has gone along way since he was just a reader, you know.

:roll:

edit: I'm gonna raise the number of votes needed, after all, i was unsure as to the number of active users about, and i did not want the petition unfair dismissed due to the lack of votes, but at the same time i do not wish to make it that only the first few number of votes can make an overwhelming decision so fast.

since this is only the second day, and we have already acquired close to 10 votes,
Hence the number of votes will be changed to a nice odd number of 17.

At the rate this is going, i'm sure this will be easy to acquire.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

B) it is not an argue about the thumbnails it is argument on how the image itself looks. If it is scanned as in poor quality it will look badly regardless if it is thumbnail or the real picture as they both are scanned badly (lest say the cut marks or the page transparency).

TGM - Does not pertain to the topic at hand.
Spoiler! :
C) If you use ATLAS V 11 of course it sucks. Even ATLAS 14 sucks if you do not build up a manual dictionary. Can you name those 5 translators by the way? I am curious to know if they ever seriously tried ATLAS or never really considered using patches build in dictionaries as such.

Who said about not liking? We were just talking about the fact that images help to attract people, and if they are attracted they are interested enough to at least start translation. Are you even able to follow yourself? because in this particular case you are talking nonsense which is not related to the actual point that I made in the beginning.

And please name people that you talked about and said that ATLAS sucks. Saying " i talked to dozens people who said this and that " is not reliable information as you can say "I talk to dozens of translators who said ATLAS is ten times better than them" and so on.

I have great doubt that they ever used ATLAS. Besides you do understand that MT translator is not just copy paste the translation from ATLAS, right? ATLAS right now is the best translation program specially with manually build dictionary, yet it alone is not enough to produce really quality translation. I use Systran to cover ATLAS faults whicgh basically are Kana characters. Also use my all dictionaries to check each kanji manually so taht there would be no mistakes at all and then from all these translations i have I produce a sentence. In fact Machine translator (as long as he wants to produce quality translation) works two times if not three times more work than the actual translator with these various checks and re-checks.

And how you can like the quality of your translations when you do not have YOUR translations? They are someone else, never yours. You yourself did nothing.
D) Since i never used Wiki I wonder how I uploaded my translations or images on Kaze no Stigma and color images on Spice and Wolf? By no using it? Wow, your logic is really impressive.

I was talking about the linking (this is what you call putting in bracelets) to an image which was already uploaded. The way i did with ZnT countless times already.

I was just using casual language to speak without going into details as I haven't thought that there still can be still be brain dead people who would not be able to figure it out.. Sorry, was wrong.

E) You do understand that they can upload images first right?

Lets say a person N has good quality scans that others lack of (like not having cut lines) He has scans for all of the volumes even latest volume 8 that others have trouble in obtaining. If you were to use old image storing system this person N would have to wait for the chapter to finish to upload the images in question. yet because slow translation the chapter gets finished after three weeks and the person is sadly gone from B-T as he could only stay for one week (or have the scans for one week and so on). Using the newer system he can upload all of them on Monday and even if he would be gone after one week his uploads would still be stored and any person can link them to the text.

Text is always most important but images can help get more attention and enjoy it more in general. Images are like spices. They add specific taste to the food make it much more enjoyable so why to use second-class spices or none at all when you can use a high-quality ones? They make it taste even better.

NOTE.

I have deleted Smidge's post since we agreed to stop flaming and the bigger part of his post were just personal attacks against me.
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