Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

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Do you agree with changes?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:28 am

I agree
18
58%
I disagree
12
39%
I do not know
1
3%
 
Total votes: 31

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Smidge204
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Smidge204 »

There is no such thing as "wasting" a month. Despite all this, work on S&W has been continuing just fine. A testament to how trivial this all is, really.

Const2k is suggesting that we disenfranchise half the people who voted.
Darknemo2000 wrote:Nope smidge you are wrong, this poll you listed did not collected enough amount of votes (well at least the amount that GTO held for standart that he listed before starting this poll) thus cannot be held to be taken place at all.
That was over a year ago. There was no minimum vote requirement because there wasn't as many people TO vote. The forums just weren't as active. Your assertion that the guidelines were forced upon everyone are just wrong, deal with it.

Darknemo2000 wrote:The initial position of both "yes' and No' were uncompromisable thus changing one of the position into compromisable made bit more confusion than needed and changed the voting flow pretty strongly. My mistake as well as I should have corrected this at the start.
So you admit that your pol is a false dichotomy because it presents only two extreme positions without any true consideration for a middle ground.

Darknemo2000 wrote:You are suggesting logic but do not use logic that much

"Yes" - 14
"No" - 8
Compromise (I do not know/middle) - 8
And how did you come up with these numbers? You are assuming that everyone who voted since the compromise was offered actually intended to vote for it. Correlation does not equal causation. So much for logic.

So what would happen if the majority of people voted "I don't know" ? Bear in mind that the option existed before the compromise was brought up, so you can not argue that this is really the middle position. It is the neutral position. Even if "I don't know" came out as the majority, we would still choose based on the greater of "yes" or "no" votes.

Darknemo2000 wrote:Just because something worked in my favor doesn't mean that it should not be complained about as simply one cannot change the quotas during voting is not a very great or fair idea. Just because something worked in my favor doesn't make that something better or more right.
And the right thing to do, then, would be to sink this poll and start over. You certainly don't seem too keen on doing that, though! (likely because it would not work to your advantage)
Darknemo2000 wrote:In fact this poll became illegitimate when one of the positions shifted the standing based on compromise while the voting was still in process. Yet you cannot blame the starting format for that because it was approved and allowed to start without the rejection based on the not-matching format. It allowed the possibility for an error to happen but it itself wasn't the an error as such.
Since you used your own government as an example, I'll use mine as well. If a proposed law contains things people don't like, you vote against it. If the proposal is defeated, it gets rewritten and proposed again for another vote. The process repeats as many times as necessary until either the people proposing the law give up or enough votes are gained to approve it.

Hence, if you want a compromise, vote "No" so we can rewrite the proposal and vote on it again. We do not try to figure out who actually voted "yes" but wanted a compromise, who voted "no" but wanted a compromise, and who voted "Don't know" but wanted a compromise. That's called "shenanigans."

I'm still waiting for a coherent reason why you want this to happen, by the way. I bring it up again because every time I do I get a different answer. I'm curious as to what your response will be this time.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Const2k »

Smidge204 wrote:Const2k is suggesting that we disenfranchise half the people who voted.
You mean "why only 13?" That's because their opinions are verifiable (they've written them here long ago), hence we can safely subtract them from "general" "I (dis)agree".
So, Smidge, what's your choice?
( ) "Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" (compromise)
( ) "Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" (uncompromisable position)
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

Darknemo2000 wrote:Would it not be better to simply take out such an option? Since ye's I do not care about details provide no information and when we were to create another pool it would be what? This?

( ) "I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
( ) "I agree, use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
(o) "I agree, details don't matter" (on by default for those who voted "I agree" previously)

And then you would get the same results over again if 'details don't matter' win. And again. And again... This is not a bureaucracy, but clownery, as you keep the possibility of eternal voting circle, without any attempts to prevent or limit it.

Face it it - to get a result in this case you would have to take out the option 'details don't matter' at all, as simply such 'details don't matter' option adds completely nothing to the solution. As far as I can fiollow Const2k thought process, this option is basically just to keep the continuity of the voting from this poll so that the votes would not be lost completely.

Yet I think that the voting should be restarted completely, but now only positive and compromise positions would remain if the "yes' (which is more likely to win at this moment) wins. This way the results of this poll would still matter (as it would eliminate the complete "no" option, if the results remain similar as to what they are right now) and we would not completely disregard the option that won (or is more likely to win), but now would go to a constructive solution of such option.

( ) "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" (uncompromisable position)
( ) "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" (compromise)
( ) "Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" (compromise)

If in the end "No" would receive more votes then the options should be:

( ) "Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY (uncompromisable position)
( ) "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" (compromise)
( ) "Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" (compromise)

In either of the cases the uncompromisable position ('yes' or 'no') gets eliminated depending on the voting in here (thats how we would bring the continuity of votes from here into another poll, rather than using the 'details don't matter' option which does not add to solution at all and would only create a possibility of eternal voting circle).

If the result of 'yes' and 'no' would be equal by the end of the date then the options should be:

( ) "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" (uncompromisable position)
( ) "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" (compromise)
( ) "Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" (compromise)
( ) "Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" (uncompromisable position)

But in either case, GTO you have to provide the rules (most importantly the quota and the voting counting system) before the voting starts rather than changing it in the process of it as it carries the possibility to disfeature the voting results.

Your accusation of "clownery" (not sure what that means) in that i don't attempt to limit the number of the voting process over a single issue, you are partially correct.

nothing is perfect, it can always be improved, i think any attempt to stop change is detrimental to the Baka-Tsuki community.
The day we stop evolving is the day we stagnate and die.

However i understand that everything needs a break now and again, so i will leave out the option for "details don't matter" just so that this new vote will come to some sort of conclusion.

however this won't stop someone else requesting another vote on the issue somewhere down the line, you know. :roll: :wink:

As mentioned in the p.m. to you C2k, i understand i should state the voting guidelines and stick to them, since there seem to be far more people in the community since the last time we had any major voting decision, i was unsure if the previous minimum vote estimation was far few so i had to wait to see the results from this one.

now that i'm sure of the number of active users here, i won't be changing it.

i hope that satisfy your questions.
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Darknemo2000
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

But that was the argument that at that time it wasn't a communities decision it was only a few individuals decision that by nowadays standards do not even pass the needed quota. so either reduce the todays quota (to keep the standard) or the re-vote the polls that by nowadays quota standards cannot be held to be taken place.

in fact, it is meant to be either 'yes' a or 'no' thread to either accept this issue or just to discard it once and for all. But the actual error happened from you trying to push a compromise into what started the uncompromisable position. You should gave said for others go voting for "I do not know" as a possible compromise position rather than 'no' which did not started as compromise.

I do not say that all those votes are necessarily for the compromise but using simple logic is that in either case "No" still looses against 'Yes' and "yes' looks to be less numerously influenced by possible compromise voting than 'No'.

I am not keen to do something that would lead to a possibility of eternal voting, nor I am very keen on wasting all votes, thus i am suggesting that when the other poll will start to avoid using the "do not care about details' statements and also excluding one of either of the uncompromisable statements "yes' or 'no' based on votes so it would not go completely to waste.

You are right that the process repeats as many times as necessary until either the people proposing the law give up or enough votes are gained to approve it. However, you should also take into account that if the form has an obvious error which will lead to another possible restart the form is asked to be changed. And this is on what based my arguments against the 'do not care about the details' options since if you let them be the possibility of another revoting is very high, as though time many will be bored with this issue and simply not many will bother to remove their votes from it. Thus it would make us spin in this circle of repeated voting.

And what do you have in mind with 'this' to happen? If you have in mind why I want the non-color images be posted together with cover I already posted my arguments. If you are asking why i want to correct the form of the poll , i just wrote why - leaving the 'do not care about the details' options have high probability to be unsuccessful voting again. And why I do want one from either of the uncompromisable positions "no" or "yes" to be removed - thats because to keep the continuity of voting so that they would not go completely to waste.

clownery - n klounada, in lthuanian. in english the definition would be a farce, or clown-like acting.

Anyway, GTO there should be standard of quotas one have for all the projects rather than creating special quotas for each project, or what is even worse - creating quotas during the process of voting.

Like for example the voting that Smidge linked in here regarding the guidelines do not match the current community size as it had only 5 votes in general. Thus a revoting may be a good option to not being stagnated and still, as gain the community grew up during the time and if the voting was counted as matching the quota's at that time, it doesnt match the quotas of the current community thus cannot be considered as properly reflecting the community at the moment. I understand that we need some stability but we also need to renew from time to time, we wont go starting voting just because one or two new members joined, but there also has to be the limits of how old the voting can get before it should be revoted and the 5 vote poll looks too old and not reflecting the current community size by any means. The standard quota should have increased to more than 5 people for sure by now.
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Smidge204
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Smidge204 »

Darknemo2000 wrote:Like for example the voting that Smidge linked in here regarding the guidelines do not match the current community size as it had only 5 votes in general. Thus a revoting may be a good option to not being stagnated and still, as gain the community grew up during the time and if the voting was counted as matching the quota's at that time, it doesnt match the quotas of the current community thus cannot be considered as properly reflecting the community at the moment.
Smidge204 wrote:I'm redrafting the master guidelines anyway (proposal will be after this and one other poll are resolved) so there will be a chance for everyone to throw in their opinions.
Way ahead of you chief. A somewhat lengthy discussion in the IRC channel prompted me to redraft the main guidelines and actually create a few others. Expect it to pop up in about two weeks for discussion and voting in September.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Well thanks for clearing the issue GTO regarding the changing quota, yet your actions were still incorrect. If you wanted to change the quota and create a new quota standard based on voting in this poll you should have waited till the poll ended and only then initiated the changes in quota. Changing a quota during the voting process is not a way to do.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

Darknemo2000 wrote: Changing a quota during the voting process is not a way to do.
In Wiki-Communist Baka-Tsuki, voting quota change YOU.

:roll: :P
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Krikit »

Okay, here we go:

I AGREE:
( ) "I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
( ) "I agree, use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
(o) "I agree, details don't matter" (on by default for those who voted "I agree" previously)

Details doesn't matter is fine. If it has the most votes, then that means the people don't care whether the other two win, but the vote still goes into the "YES" section. You can pretty much use those votes as "YES" votes, and then at the end, whichever one has more votes out of the other two, (put them together, or use single page with some separation), is the one that we go with. Vice versa if "NO" wins.

The most accurate way to get the consensus of the majority of readers, is to re-vote....While if we could PM everyone and they answer within the next few days, that would be fine...but if not, and even one doesn't respond, then we have to "wait," otherwise we're kicking their vote out. As much as I don't want to wait, I think the best thing to do is wait...1 more month....haha.

Barb and Judg are still translating. Judgment is hoping to be done with Volume 3 by the end of August. Right now, the format will hold, with the color images in the folders, and the rest "in-line." This is to support Smidge saying translation hasn't been hampered by this. It really hasn't. It's just an aesthetic bit of "flair" we're voting on ^_^. (That is, how we want it to appear)

Barb as started school again, so his translation has slowed down. It doesn't really slow the translation effort, it's just the "aesthetic appearance" of the pages that are slowed in development. Not too serious, and the time just means that we can get it right to the best consensus available.

Anyway, I'll end with just saying what I said earlier:

A new poll, set for another month, with all the choices Const2k recommended, with a disclaimer saying that if "I don't Care" wins, then they are counted as votes in the specific category, (YES or NO), and then whichever category has the most votes, second place is the winner. Either "All together" or "All together/separated". Same with the second place for "NO."

How's this sound?
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

So, If i understand you correctly you are saying that

All the options from i agree category would be counted as one I agree while all options from I disagree would be counted as one i disagree to see which of the two wins.

For example.

"I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" (4 votes)
"I agree, use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" (2 votes)
"I agree, details don't matter" (on by default for those who voted "I agree" previously) (10 votes)

and "I disagree" with:

"I disagree, use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" (3 votes)
"I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" (3 votes)
"I disagree, details don't matter" (on by default for those who voted "I disagree" previously) (7 votes)

So the I agree general votes would be 4+2+10=16 and i disagree 3+3+7=13 votes. Lets say that I agree wins since the details do not matter as many will not bother to vote again and thus their votes will not be moved from I agree details do not matter.

But since it doesn't give any solution then you have to chose from either of the two other I agree options and whichever has the most votes is the winner? So if the first option has 4 votes while second has two means that the first option of i agree wins?

Did I understand you correctly?
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Krikit »

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant...I thought it would be a good idea to keep the "Details Don't Matter" options, because that way, if someone wants to vote yes, but they don't really care to choose between the two, or something...it's like "insurance" I guess to make sure that at least any yes votes do make it into the "yes" category, and same with making sure all "no" votes go into the "no" category.

Example: In your above post, "YES" won with 16 votes. The the "most voted in" was "don't matter," which is really only a place holder for an undecided yes or no vote. Then, the next highest vote is chosen. Again, in your above poll, the winner was:

"I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" (4 votes)

As it came in second place in the "YES" category, which had won, and so that is the option that would be chosen.

EDIT: I fully understand your above post. YES is my answer ^_^, that's what I meant. Sorry for dragging it out above.

How does this sound?
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Const2k »

If we sum up discussion in this thread to date (6 Aug 12:30 GMT), we have following opinions stated (chronological order, traffic light colored):
Spoiler! :
Darknemo2000 "I agree" -> "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
TheGiftedMonkey "I agree" -> "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
Smidge204 "I disagree" -> "Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY"
onizuka-gto "I do not know"
Vaelis "I agree" -> "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
Jumpyshoes "I disagree" -> ???
TheDefend "I agree" -> "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
Const2k "I agree" -> "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
barbsicle "I agree" -> ???
Dan "I agree" -> "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
Matt122004 "I agree" -> "Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
fiendmaw "I disagree" -> "Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines"
Krikit "I agree" -> "Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"
So, currently we have
"I agree, details don't matter" = "I agree" - 8 = 16 - 8 = 8
"Place images on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora" +5
"Use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close" +3
"I disagree, details don't matter" = "I disagree" - 2 = 13 - 2 = 11
"Make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines" +1
"Use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY" +1

If you think I've understood someone in a wrong way, please state so.
I'm PMing those whose opinions are uncertain or could've changed since they wrote prior to the new variants.
"You'll never know unless you try", they say...

If this thing fails, we'll make another poll. However, the question won't be "do you agree with changes", since we'll soon (in ~50 hours) find this out. The question should be something like "what are we going to do?" rather than proposed "what do you generally think?"
As for these "...details don't matter", it is obviously excessive for the next poll since "I (dis)agree" in current one are essentially the same. If we think about outcome of current poll, we'd make next one with "other/custom/not listed/see my comment" option that would leave some place for future ideas. For example, Darknemo2000 couldn't (and nobody could, BTW) foresee proposed alternate variants at the time of creating current poll.
Basically, next poll (if any) should contain <uncompromissable>, <compromise1>, <compromise2> and <other> options. Probably "against all" would be useful as well (obviously omitting "I don't care" - if you don't care, you simply don't vote).
And we really need as many votes as possible, so there should be note about this discussion on main S&W page/its illustration page.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

Actually if you are planning to bring the votes from this poll into the votes of "details do not matter' then it is easy to predict an outcome - the most votes will get the details do not matter option as simply the interest is very likely to drop.. It is not 100 percent sure but very very likely to happen.

And Krikit, I think your suggestion does sound logical but i do not know if others would agree with it.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Krikit »

hmmm....is it maybe because the "1st place" on the poll isn't really "1st place?"

example: NO-don't care has 10 votes, but NO in general has 13 votes. Then imagine none of the YES votes have over 10 individually, so NO-don't care "wins." But total, lets say YES has 16 votes. so "YES" wins, even though "NO-Don't care" has the most "votes."

Is it because of this logic that the poll is wacky and people might not agree with choosing "second place" in a poll that the most voted option might not be the option that wins? hahaha

Spice and Wolf...wow this is an "original" project....^_^

What do you others think about the "PLAN" I wrote out a bit earlier? That is keeping all the choices, but if a "doesn't matter" has the most votes, then the second place option will take perogitive?
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

I will be making a new poll based upon the selectable options:

"I agree, place them on one page altogether, like in ZnT and Toradora"
"I agree, use single page, but covers and B&W inlines shouldn't be too close"

and "I disagree" with:

"I disagree, use gallery for covers and chapters for inlines, like in SHnY"
"I disagree, make two pages: one for covers and another for B&W inlines"


As mentioned before, i have omitted "details don't matter"

The following are voting rules that in future may be used (with some modification) to apply for all projects.

however this one is specifically for this petition, as i still need to use this for evaluation.

However I promise that i will not be changing them during the voting process.
  • Voting rules are:
  • Voting will last one month (30 days)
  • One Vote only per member (One I.P)
  • Votes are changeable within the allocated time
  • Minimum overall number of votes required is 20
  • Only one outcome is acceptable, failure will result in a re-vote
  • The selection must win by a clear majority of two votes over the rest, failure will result in a re-vote
  • The winning option will be implement with immediate effect upon satisfying all the above points
This thread will be linked to this one for voting comrades if they require additional information.

Upon creation of the new poll, this thread will be closed. Please transfer your votes to the new poll.
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Re: Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

Post by Darknemo2000 »

I think you need to reduce the qouta from the 20 people to 16 as simply the interest in this poll will without a doubt drop. Maybe I am overly pessimistic but I do not think 20 votes are realistic in todays circumstances.

Also what about the votes of this poll? Are you letting it go to waste? In this case I like Krikits suggestion more as at least it won't let the the votes go to waste and the details do not matter would not be counted as an actual solution but just a general support of the position.

Also what do you mean "clear majority" over the rest? You mean +2 votes over the second decision or +2 votes over all other option votes combined? if in second case then there is no chance of that to happen.

Also how about if the revoting would be needed as +2 won't be acquired then in revoting leaving only two top voted options?
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