larethian wrote:orrh, just what I'd expect from Doranyako-sama, a very detailed and complete answer, thanks
My pleasure.
so お揃い is part of keigo? it's referring to "assembling"?
It literally means gathering / assembling / going together / matching.
As for whether it is keigo... There is a certain degree of politeness in it but I wouldn't put it up to the level of full-fledged sonkeigo.
The example you quoted, "皆さんお揃いでおいでください", shows precisely the level of politeness exhibited. "お揃いでおいで" is clearly more polite than "揃ってきて". But the use of 皆さん instead of 皆様 shows that the whole line has yet to reach the top rank in the hierarchy of politeness.
larethian wrote:orrh, just what I'd expect from Doranyako-sama, a very detailed and complete answer, thanks
My pleasure.
so お揃い is part of keigo? it's referring to "assembling"?
It literally means gathering / assembling / going together / matching.
As for whether it is keigo... There is a certain degree of politeness in it but I wouldn't put it up to the level of full-fledged sonkeigo.
The example you quoted, "皆さんお揃いでおいでください", shows precisely the level of politeness exhibited. "お揃いでおいで" is clearly more polite than "揃ってきて". But the use of 皆さん instead of 皆様 shows that the whole line has yet to reach the top rank in the hierarchy of politeness.
ahh ok, I understood the usage context of "assembling" in the sense of creating a full (matching) set, but it confused me initially since I can't figure out how it applies to the girls, but after you explained my misunderstanding of "綺麗どころ", I get it now.
I have now a new problem that has been staring at me for the past half hour:
The context is a girl named Liir who's considering about the philosophical meaning of "despair". Because I can't really type in Japanese on this PC due to some restrictions, merely being able to copy and paste from an online dictionary, I opted to use translated sentences for the context, they are simple enough so I shouldn't have made any mistake other than sucky grammar:
the bold parts are Liir's part and the bold 'she' also refers to Liir. she is watching 3 shoujo bullying 1 shoujo.
Spoiler! :
"...... what manner of despair on earth are you people experiencing?" She asked.
The young girls, on hearing that,
"Huh? What's that pipsqueak babbling about?"
"Hey hey, what's despair?"
"You don't even know that?"
"I'm not really good at studies."
"That's not the point right?"
"Save me. Please. These people are trying to kill......"
"Don't say that in such a distasteful manner. Do you really want us mash up your face?"
"Eeehhhh ~ that will really be bad ~. If you do something to my face, I'm going to tell on you, so don't do it."
"Even if we don't do that, you will still tattle on us."
"I won't! I......"
"Quiet!"
And that young girl beat up the other young girl.
A human beating up a human.
And she looked at them for a while, then murmured. "Perhaps, Cross was right." She murmured.
A magic had been cast on this country.
An abnormal power that was tampering with everything.
That was what she felt.
After Cross had disappeared, she had also begun to notice it gradually. 安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
Afterschool.
Chime.
Classroom.
Desk.
Blackboard.
Club activities.
Bullying.
And, what else?
Anyway, it was not unthinkable that everything in this country was backed by this special magic.
Maybe the author is trying to be cryptic or something, but I can't make much sense on the untranslated sentence; the blue and the red parts seem kind of mismatch to me.
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:28 am
by YoakeNoHikari
Afraid of whether or not this cheap despair would continue on for eternity, to the extent that it was a boring, tranquil atmosphere.
Ah...That is what I think, but it does not make much sense to me either.
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:29 am
by larethian
ok, after thinking about it, I kind of understand the contradiction already, so I'll manage somehow. Liir is actually comparing the so-called 'despair' as defined in Japan, compared to the true 'despair' that is happening in other parts of the world. To the girls, getting bullied is despair, but in other places, people are getting killed, violated, etc. etc.
She is trying to describe the things/objects in Japan, that are supposedly protected by a kind of magic from the true despair that plagues other parts of the world. Using 退屈な, 安穏とした空気 creates the contrast to show 'mild' this kind of 'despair' is.
as for the translation, I''ll think about it later when I get home, or until our in-house consultant can help me with this .
Just returned from my trip, so my worn out brain might not be operating optimally, but I'm thinking of
"She felt cheated by that lazy, boring despair, which seemed to go on forever, and that thought alone struck fear in her."
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:18 am
by Doraneko
安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
Solely on the point of grammatical construction, "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, while "永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど" modifies "退屈な, 安穏とした空気".
As for the context...
安売りされている絶望
Without substantial knowledge of the story and by just relying on the information provided Lare, the "cheap" nature of despair in Japan is quite understandable.
永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気
My literal take on this line is "a boring, uneventful atmosphere that makes one fears that it would continue forever."
larethian wrote:She is trying to describe the things/objects in Japan, that are supposedly protected by a kind of magic from the true despair that plagues other parts of the world. Using 退屈な, 安穏とした空気 creates the contrast to show 'mild' this kind of 'despair' is.
Indeed. I agree that it is exactly the point of the line. To the heroine, amidst the so-called despair, was a stale, uneventful atmosphere that seemed to have no end.
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:42 pm
by larethian
thanks for all the input.
I just need to clarify this last thing on the grammar construct wrt to what Doraneko said. I thought the break-up was like this:
even when "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, I thought this whole clause "安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないか" is a subordinate set of "と怖くなるほど" rather than just "永遠に続くんじゃないか". Am I mistaken?
Thanks again.
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:43 pm
by Doraneko
larethian wrote:
even when "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, I thought this whole clause "安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないか" is a subordinate set of "と怖くなるほど" rather than just "永遠に続くんじゃないか". Am I mistaken?
Thanks again.
If it was such a case, the line would instead be "安売りされている絶望は/が永遠に続くんじゃないか、と怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気."
Compare this version with the original. Note the grammatical function of に, and to a lesser extent, the position of the commas.
安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:14 am
by larethian
seeing your example of what it should have been if it's based on my breakdown seems clearer. though I have a bad tendency to read whatever intangible noun, like 絶望, that comes before に as an adverb for the action that comes after without thinking too much. In my mind, I just tried to share "続くん" with "永遠に" and "絶望に" at the same time, treating both as adverbs in a n00bish way.
P.S: practicing my Chinese because I'm working with some Chinese clients now. btw, did I use 得 wrongly when it should have been 地?
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:23 am
by YoakeNoHikari
In your first sentence: 日文文法对我来说真得是太伤脑经了。 The 得 should just be 的.
看来要掌握适当的文法运用形式还需要花费我不少心思呢。 Not really a mistake, but the 我 should be unnecessary.
您在这里指得《に》的用途(after 絶望)是否意味着《pair》或是《and (additive)》来连接上半句(安売りされている絶望)与下半句(永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気)的用途呢?真是不好意思。 Once again, it should just be 的.
小的鸟。
快地飞。
飞得快。
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:35 am
by Doraneko
larethian wrote:seeing your example of what it should have been if it's based on my breakdown seems clearer. though I have a bad tendency to read whatever intangible noun, like 絶望, that comes before に as an adverb for the action that comes after without thinking too much. In my mind, I just tried to share "続くん" with "永遠に" and "絶望に" at the same time, treating both as adverbs in a n00bish way.
It is certainly important to identify the correct grammatical structure first before jumping to context interpretation, or else the final translation will drift away from the original intended meaning. But then everyone makes mistakes, so as long as you keep practising and revising there should be no worries. Even for me, I get trapped by complex sentence from time to time.
地
(1) 用在状语和中心词之间 [used after an adj.,noun,adverb or verb,etc.to form an adverbial adjunct]。如:他认真地学习;天气渐渐地冷了;有计划地安排生活。又表示动态,相当于“着”。常附在立、卧、坐等不及物动词的后头
后妻向床上卧地不起。——《舜子变文》
(2) 还用于状语后或补语前
相看月未坠,白地断肝肠。——唐· 杜甫《越女词》
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:59 am
by YoakeNoHikari
Damn, that's complicated. I prefer my three example sentences. ^^
Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:30 am
by Doraneko
YoakeNoHikari wrote:Damn, that's complicated.
Yea. In general the Chinese language takes a minimalist approach, meaning less grammar stuff to memorize on the surface, but each grammar item has a whole lot of meanings and radically different uses attached to it. As contradictory as it may sound, its simplicity inevitably contributes to its complexity.
I prefer my three example sentences. ^^
With respect, the "的" in your example of "小的鳥" serves a very different grammatical function when compared to the ones in "真的是" and "你指的用途." To start with, note the nature of the word preceding "的". More specifically it is for showing a modifying relationship between the preceding attribute of "小" and the succeeding noun of "鳥", by effectively turning "小" into an adjective (i.e. 形容詞作定語). Refer to definition 助1 in my previous quote.