Translation Questions - Toradora Spinoff 2

[rpapo]

チュンチュン

[Zell_ff8]

*() means omitted context / comments
*[] is supposed. it lacks context to know what should go there
-----------------------


……でもさー、俺は、死ぬとこも見たい、つて、思うんだけど。そりゃ死ぬところなんて見たら悲しいけどさ、そこを見られなかったら、ずっと捜しちゃうじゃんね？ずっと、心配で、どうしてるのか考えて、ずっと……悲しい、ままじゃんね？
But you know, I kinda want to see the moment [he] dies. Of course seeing it (the moment [he] dies) is sad , but if I don't see it I'll always be looking for [him] right?. Always worried, thinking what has happened to [him]/what is of [him], always... in the blue, right?

見なかったからって忘れられるなんて、そんなの猫の浅知恵だよね。人間の愛って、そんなもんじゃないよね。なんでわかってくんないんだろ。
Forgetting about it it just because I didn't see it is absurd (like a cat' thinking). Human's love is not like that. Why [you/them] don't understand it?

……どうせ別れることが決まっているなら、死ぬとこも全部、別れの時もその姿も全部、見せてくれなくちゃ……好きになっちゃったら、そこまで見なくちゃ、納得できないよね。
If anyway [we] have to part away (i.e. one dies), I have to see everything, even [he] dying, the very moment [we] part away..... if I only see until the moment I started liking [him] it won't do.

そこを見せずに逃げようなんて、なんか、なんかそれってさ、人間、舐めてんよ！ もっと、ちゃんと、考えてみろって……言いたいよ！ ……言ったって、その言葉が通じるかどうか、わかんないけどさあ……っ
Running way without seeing it... it's like, like, don't think of humans so lightly! I makes me say "think it a bit more, carefully!" ... I want to say that, but don't know if those words would go through [him/them].

[rpapo]

The context is this: Haruta was speaking to his homeroom teacher, Yuri, and was speaking of a cat. This was a way of speaking indirectly about Sena Hamada, who reminds him of a cat herself. That he was speaking of death is for several reasons, including Sena's earlier tendency towards suicide, and how badly he felt over how he had run away from her, scared.

I will take your suggestions into account and revisit the paragraph. I had posted an approximation to the wiki something over a week ago.

[larethian]

didn't check rpapo's trans nor read this story. though jarring and literal at times, not considering context, Zell's translation is accurate. i never attempted this because of context, because this single-sided dialogue was just plain weird to me and didn't make any sense (despite rpapo trying to explain the context, I still don't understand, guy just sounds crazy to me, he needs a shrink, doesn't he?), but I'll translate more or less the same as Zell disregarding context. various places I'd smoothen and say it in a different way, like "I can't accept it" rather than "it won't do", and the last sentence could use some rephrasing, but I'm too tired now, and since rpapo's English is good, I'll just go sleep.

[rpapo]

My English is what it is: the result of a lifetime living in the USA and of lots of reading, seasoned a bit by having learned to speak Spanish fluently in South America and from studying various other languages, most particularly Japanese. My biggest problem is a tendency to be too open-minded about foreign sentence structures. Sometimes I can wind up saying things in a way that sounds strange to somebody who's never studied another language.

In any case, Haruta is absolutely in a sad state at this point of the story, and if you read the story you would understand why. Takemiya at her best: lots of conflicted emotions.

But it all works out in the end. See Toradora EP23 for the final result.

[rpapo]

I am having some difficulty deciding how to render what Takemiya is saying with regards to a "cord" that Sena is either pulling Haruta in with, or drawing a line in her relationship with Haruta which she keeps trying to cross, but Haruta doesn't want to. Some of the comments in the text don't quite make sense. The following paragraphs are together in the original text, and I find myself stumped on the last line I'm giving here.

瀬奈は考えてくれたのだった。考えて、そして、線を引いたのは間違いだったと認めてくれた。ちゃんとお別れをするために、開いた窓から戻ってきてくれたのだった。春田が乗り越えられなかった一線を、なかったことにしてくれようとしていた。

Sena had been thinking about him. Thought about him, and then, realized the mistake she’d made in doing what she did. The perfect way to say goodbye to him was coming back to him at the open window. She had been trying to do something Haruta wasn’t ready for.

だったら自分は、やらなくてはいけない。取り払われた線の先を――別れの瞬間を見届けなくてはいけない。どんなに胸が痛んだって、苦しくたって。これを、この再会を、最後の一目の挨拶を、喜ばなくてはいけない。

If it were only for herself, she could not do it. Just when that barrier was broken--- she wasn’t sure when it went away. Whatever happened, her chest ached. She could not turn away from this, this reunion, this last look at each other.

瀬奈は「ここまで」と引いたラインを、撤回してくれたのだ。自分のために。もう少し深入りしていいよ、と、ここまで会いにきてくれた。

In the start of this last paragraph, Sena seems to be saying (in her head) that she was going to back off a bit, for his sake, but also for hers.

I get the impression that are multiple meanings to the line 線, ライン, 一線 expressions used here. More than what the dictionary says, at least.

[larethian]

I am having some difficulty deciding how to render what Takemiya is saying with regards to a "cord" that Sena is either pulling Haruta in with, or drawing a line in her relationship with Haruta which she keeps trying to cross, but Haruta doesn't want to. Some of the comments in the text don't quite make sense. The following paragraphs are together in the original text, and I find myself stumped on the last line I'm giving here.

瀬奈は考えてくれたのだった。考えて、そして、線を引いたのは間違いだったと認めてくれた。ちゃんとお別れをするために、開いた窓から戻ってきてくれたのだった。春田が乗り越えられなかった一線を、なかったことにしてくれようとしていた。

Sena had been thinking about him. Thought about him, and then, realized the mistake she’d made in doing what she did. The perfect way to say goodbye to him was coming back to him at the open window. She had been trying to do something Haruta wasn’t ready for.

だったら自分は、やらなくてはいけない。取り払われた線の先を――別れの瞬間を見届けなくてはいけない。どんなに胸が痛んだって、苦しくたって。これを、この再会を、最後の一目の挨拶を、喜ばなくてはいけない。

If it were only for herself, she could not do it. Just when that barrier was broken--- she wasn’t sure when it went away. Whatever happened, her chest ached. She could not turn away from this, this reunion, this last look at each other.

瀬奈は「ここまで」と引いたラインを、撤回してくれたのだ。自分のために。もう少し深入りしていいよ、と、ここまで会いにきてくれた。

In the start of this last paragraph, Sena seems to be saying (in her head) that she was going to back off a bit, for his sake, but also for hers.

I get the impression that are multiple meanings to the line 線, ライン, 一線 expressions used here. More than what the dictionary says, at least.

Thought about him, and then, realized the mistake she’d made in doing what she did

I thought not so much as in realized, but rather acceptance that it was "a mistake to draw the line".

The perfect way to say goodbye to him was coming back to him at the open window.

から here == from. "In order to say a proper goodbye, she returned/came back from the opened window."

春田が乗り越えられなかった一線を、。

"The line which Haruta could not pass(ie. like surpassing or overcoming something)"

なかったことにしてくれようとしていた。

this second part of the sentence talks about Sena attempting to "void" the line(matter) for Haruta.

larethian no nihongo benkyou kyoushitsu!!!
for us non-native speakers, best way to understanding such sentences is to dissect the line,
firstly 春田 is the subject for the action 乗り越えられなかった and this action applies to 一線. So the line (一線) is the object for the second part of the sentence. (春田が乗り越えられなかった) is an information-providing modifier that merely talks about 'what kind of line is it'. There is no need for me to explain the negative-potential form here for 乗り越える, is there?

so now we can disregard the informative modifier and it becomes, 一線をなかったことにしてくれようとしていた. but the question is (だれが)一線をなかったことにしてくれようとしていた(か)? of course this could be inferred all along from the original declaration of the topic that it's actually (瀬奈が)一線をなかったことにしてくれようとしていた.

なかったことにする --> literally "make something into nothing"
Q: (なにを)なかったことにする(か)?
(一線を)なかったことにする --> so the something=='the line', "make the line into nothing"
一線をなかったことにして(くれる) --> "make the line into nothing (for Haruta)"

finally ,the "ようとしていた" tells you that "it" hasn't happened at the moment yet, but it's either about to happen, or being attempted right now. the "it" == "一線をなかったことにして(くれる)" of course.

so Sena is ('attempting' or 'is about to') to void the line which she had drawn and which could not be crossed/overcome by Haruta. this is in line with the earlier sentence that Sena accepted the fact that the "drawing a line" was a mistake.

I'll leave the task of making it into sensible English to you, mate.

[rpapo]

ありがとうございます、お先生様！

There are still many things about this section that I seem to be getting wrong. For one thing, from what I've been seeing in this story, it was not Sena who was "drawing the line" so much as Haruta. Sena has been behaving as if anything she wants, she gets, one way or the other. If anything, it seems almost as if the references to the "line" were to Sena drawing Haruta in as if on a cord or leash. Haruta, for all his initial teenage bluster about what he would do with a girl if he had half a chance, has actually been resisting, though part of that resistance is him not wanting to be simply "used" (and therefore wind up in a subordinate relationship with her). He doesn't quite understand this in his own mind, and doesn't really know why he is resisting.

Another oddity about this section is that it seems to be describing how Sena is thinking, which is not at all how the story has been written to this point: all from Haruta's point of view. If we assume that it is Haruta who is thinking here, then some things make more sense, some less.

Following Haruta's own advice, I've gotta do some more thinking, and perhaps rework some of the earlier sections.

[larethian]

larethian の日本語勉強教室パートツー！！！
You were confused here because you got the wrong subject. Based on what I'm seeing from the direction hints embedded in the verbs, the narrator is standing in the same POV as Haruta. For example, verbs like くれる should normally only be used in first-person sentences. Thus the 3rd-person narration was done from 1st-person POV, a common style of Japanese LNs, in which the narrator can see all the thoughts of that 1st-person he's standing with. Another direction hint would be 窓から戻ってきて, which indicates "towards here". Hence, when 自分 is used in this manner, it must be referring to Haruta. Subsequently, everything is talking about Haruta himself.

だったら自分は、やらなくてはいけない。

Continuing from before: "If that's the case, he (Haruta) has to act." (the case being Sena "voiding the line").

取り払われた線の先を――別れの瞬間を見届けなくてはいけない。[/color]

"the other side of the line which was removed / at the head of the line that was removed --- the instant of separation, he has to see it with his own eyes."
With it == "the other side of the line which was removed / at the head of the line that was removed --- the instant of separation"

Ok, I'm very literal here, knowing that firstly whatever Sena did was in a sense a favor to Haruta since くれる was used. From the tense-style of the novel, you have to put 2-and-2 together and judge whether the "line" has already been removed and what he meant by ascertaining it.

どんなに胸が痛んだって、苦しくたって。

"No matter how heartbreaking or painful it was" (or whatever you want to use, tormenting, anguish, agonizing blah blah).

これを、この再会を、最後の一目の挨拶を、喜ばなくてはいけない。

In short, this guy is saying that it won't do if he's not happy about their last meeting. since I don't get what the "line" was referring to, it seems like I don't get the story. LOL! 再会 used here suggests he hasn't seen her for quite some time, but yet 最後の一目の挨拶 --> last glance's greeting (sounds like they are going to part). and he has to be happy about that meeting.

瀬奈は「ここまで」と引いたラインを、撤回してくれたのだ。自分のために。もう少し深入りしていいよ、と、ここまで会いにきてくれた。

In the start of this last paragraph, Sena seems to be saying (in her head) that she was going to back off a bit, for his sake, but also for hers.

瀬奈は「ここまで」と引いたラインを、撤回してくれたのだ。: Sena is withdrawing the line she had drawn up till now.
As previous sentences already indicated. 自分のために --> this is referring to "for the sake of Haruta".

"もう少し深入りしていいよ、と" --> this phrase works like a direct reported speech (or something like that) --> "she seems to be saying, it's okay to go into (something) a little deeper". ここまで会いにきてくれた --> "She came all the way here to see him".

EDIT: what I meant here is that the action of "Sena coming here to see Haruta" is like saying "it's okay to go into (something) a little deeper".
It's just like "なになになに"と顔をする. Making a ""なになになに" face. Or making a face that says "なになになに".


Well, that's about it. The only perplexing thing to me is why Haruta refers it to be the last meeting. Is he dying or something?? Well, not like I'm interested actually, though it just makes it a little more difficult to translate when I don't understand the situation

[rpapo]

Thanks for the clarifications. Fortunately, there isn't too much that needs reworking (a couple of pages).

As for why Haruta is thinking of it being a last encounter, I think it's because he's doing what Taiga was doing about 3/4 through Toradora: thinking to sacrifice his relationship with her so that she can find a better relationship elsewhere. He doesn't think himself worthy of her, and, after all, he's 3-4 years younger than her.

[larethian]

Another oddity about this section is that it seems to be describing how Sena is thinking

No. The first sentence, "瀬奈は考えてくれたのだった" already disqualified this. The reason is because of (くれる). Like I mentioned above, くれる is only used by receivers, expressing it as a favor received (with some level of gratitude). Hence this sentence is not a 3rd-person describing Sena thinking. But a 1st-person POV describing Sena thinking for him(me). Thus the entire block is in the POV of Haruta.

[rpapo]

Which is consistent with the rest of the story. I got confused by what appeared to be text declaring Sena as the actor of the moment. Besides, Takemiya has been known to do this on occasion. I'm thinking of the moments in Toradora when Taiga or Minori suddenly became the main actors of the story. That story, for the most part, is narrated from Ryuuji's point of view.

Unless, of course, we got it wrong...

[larethian]

I made a mistake regarding this because I didn't notice the brackets initially:

瀬奈は「ここまで」と引いたラインを、撤回してくれたのだ.

「ここまで」 is the line drawn. meaning originally Sena was the one who said "this is it!" (don't go beyond this point).

it was not Sena who was "drawing the line" so much as Haruta

hmm, it could be something else, or you might have misinterpreted something along the way and subsequently this might have taken root in your mind and used as a reference for converting the other sentences. well, not having read the story, I'm could be totally wrong course. though for the blocks you posted, I'm pretty sure Sena was the one who set the limit, ie drew the line.

well, while vocabulary is pure memorization and exposure to usage, grammar is more tricky and people who are self-taught from scratch will have it tougher to build a proper grammar foundation without some kind of academic instruction or a sensei to turn to, that's what I meant in my post in another thread, if you know what I mean. because of the flexibility of grammar components like particles and conjunctions and a multitude of ways to connect, modify and transform words, sentences can be easily misinterpreted if one merely relies on checking the dictionary for vocab alone, without understanding how to dissect the sentence, identify actors, actees, inferring subjects and circumstances based on direction, etc. etc. conversely, if one has an in-depth understanding of grammar , learning advanced levels of Japanese, fixed expressions, and more vocab becomes much more manageable. don't get me wrong though, what I'm saying is just that self-taught people just have to be more patient and put more focus in grammar whenever possible and not underestimate it, before dabbling in deviants and slangs and uncommon zokugo (colloquialism), as it is simply a set of rules that help you find order in seemingly chaotic, long, jumbled-up sentences. Euths is a great example of a self-taught success. Though I'm pretty sure he has spent a lot of time and effort and constantly surrounds himself with Japanese stuff. So, がんばってね！

[rpapo]

I dived into the translation as a way to expose myself to all the strange things the language does. I read about vocabulary and grammar, and listened to recordings for nearly two years, and decided I wasn't progressing as fast as I wanted to, so I took the insane step of helping out here, as a way to force myself to the next level. That (moving to the next level) is hard to do when you're already in your fifties. Those neurons are getting stiff...

My Spanish got forced another way: living in South America. That was half a lifetime ago, though by marrying who I did I have managed to keep my language current. Now, locked in place by family, job and mortgage, I have to indulge my hobbies in ways that don't require a lot of money, and allow me to work on it in my spare time at work and home. Hence, self taught.

On the other hand, nobody's really complaining about my flubs, at least not yet. Everybody's been remarkably patient, letting me play in my sandbox.

[rpapo]

hmm, it could be something else, or you might have misinterpreted something along the way and subsequently this might have taken root in your mind and used as a reference for converting the other sentences. well, not having read the story, I'm could be totally wrong course. though for the blocks you posted, I'm pretty sure Sena was the one who set the limit, ie drew the line.

Depends on the "line" in question. In the beginning of the story, Sena set some strict limits, as she was basically using Haruta as a means to try and get back with her old boyfriend, Ryousuke. They were going through a charade in which it would look as if Haruta were her new boyfriend, as a way to force Ryousuke to act. That backfired, and Sena then went overboard in the other direction, seeking consolation from Haruta. She went so far overboard that Haruta got scared. In the immediate aftermath of that, both of them wound up pretty sick for several days, and the encounter of the moment is outside his school, after school. She sought him out, and is seeking to apologize, though Haruta still thinks (in his head) that he perhaps should be ending their connection, though in his heart he really likes her.

I know from the next few paragraphs that they wind up making up, at least provisionally. Of course, anybody who's paid close attention to the Toradora anime knows they wind up being an item (cameo appearance, episode 23).