Japanese in 18 Months? No way!!!

[kimoota]

So to write う゛ぁんぱいあ I type "u<enter>dakuten<space>lapaia<enter>" (la li lo are for "little" ぁぃぉ). Same with ディ, I type it "deli".

Unicode also has an う with dakuten. ゔぁんぱいあ〜

[Zell_ff8]

Unicode also has an う with dakuten. ゔぁんぱいあ〜

Cool. I expected it somehow. But on fanpages and BBS I always see them separated. I couldn't find it on my IME, I'd have to add it manually to the dictionary.

[rpapo]

As far as I'm concerned, taking the JLPT is something you need if you want to show on your resume that you have a certain proficiency in the language. I have absolutely no intentions of earning money from this, as my day job is quite sufficient for my needs. This is not a JLPT-only attitude, however: being a computer professional all my working life, I have yet to get any official certifications in anything. The notion of being "certified" by Microsoft, Oracle, IBM or anybody was something that cropped up in the 90s, and I've been doing what I do since the late 70s. Certifications are great for getting in the door when you have nothing else on your resume yet, but once you have a few years job experience, how you did on those jobs is what really counts. Likewise in translation: if you gather a portfolio of what you've done, and can show that off at a job interview, that would most likely count for more than what JLPT tests you've taken (and passed).

[Doraneko]

As far as I'm concerned, taking the JLPT is something you need if you want to show on your resume that you have a certain proficiency in the language. I have absolutely no intentions of earning money from this, as my day job is quite sufficient for my needs. This is not a JLPT-only attitude, however: being a computer professional all my working life, I have yet to get any official certifications in anything. The notion of being "certified" by Microsoft, Oracle, IBM or anybody was something that cropped up in the 90s, and I've been doing what I do since the late 70s. Certifications are great for getting in the door when you have nothing else on your resume yet, but once you have a few years job experience, how you did on those jobs is what really counts. Likewise in translation: if you gather a portfolio of what you've done, and can show that off at a job interview, that would most likely count for more than what JLPT tests you've taken (and passed).

Very true. At the end of the day JLPT would at most only help you to land on an interview. What happens after depends on your own quality and how you convince the interviewer, preferably with the backing of your professional experience. No one cares the number of certs you hold except maybe the HR officer who does the preliminary screening.

Though for those who aspire to become a JE translator or related professionals, they do need to start somewhere in their career ladder by getting a job. I'd say JLPT is a reasonable item to include in their resume just for the sake of getting them to the door. It is almost like a necessary evil for breaking the vicious cycle of no job -> no professional experience -> no interview -> no job.

As for using fan translations to substitute professional work samples, I am not sure of American firms and their culture. But I do have some Japanese acquaintances who took offence with job applicants proudly showcasing their fansub and scanlation experience in their portfolios.

It is also fair to say that for youngsters and fresh graduates with zero professional experience, showing your commitment in seriously learning the language by taking the exam will be helpful to not only your career (by getting you to the door) but also your Japanese proficiency. Without JLPT, which gave me realistic goals, provided me with a structured curriculum and forced me to study rigorously, I am not sure if I could ever attain my current level, let alone in less than two years.

In fact I lament at the fact that there is no advance level exams beyond JLPT1. For people with poor self-discipline like me, once they lose their goals, they tend to lose their momentum at the same time.

[larethian]

well, you can translate light novels

to tell you the truth, it opens a whole new world. try it and you would understand what I mean.

[rpapo]

As for using fan translations to substitute professional work samples, I am not sure of American firms and their culture. But I do have some Japanese acquaintances who took offence with job applicants proudly showcasing their fansub and scanlation experience in their portfolios.

One's portfolio should be carefully assembled to suit the intended audience. People who have found their niche in normal Japanese society seem to have a strong aversion to anything otaku, since interest in such things seems to imply that you have time on your hands, which in turn implies that your work ethic leaves something to be desired, and if you aren't a hard worker you aren't worthy to be called Japanese.

[Doraneko]

well, you can translate light novels

to tell you the truth, it opens a whole new world. try it and you would understand what I mean.

Lol it is certainly a new world that I am not ready for. I am still far from sufficiently proficient in Japanese or English to attempt novel translations.

A peek into the ultimate translation inferno called Japanese subcultural fiction... My respects to the godly translator who managed to pull this off.

　　「お兄ちゃん」（by可憐）→「big brother」
　　「お兄ちゃま」（by花穂）→「brother」
　　「あにぃ」（by衛）→「big bro」
　　「お兄様」（by咲耶）→「dear brother」
　　「おにいたま」（by雛子）→「bro-bro」
　　「兄上様」（by鞠絵）→「brother mine」
　　「にいさま」（by白雪）→「elder brother」
　　「アニキ」（by鈴凛）→「bro」
　　「兄くん」（by千影）→「brother darling」
　　「兄君さま」（by春歌）→「beloved brother」
　　「兄チャマ」（by四葉）→「brother dearest」
　　「兄や（にいや）」（by亞里亞）→「mon frere」
　　「あんちゃん」（by眞深）→「bud」　

As for using fan translations to substitute professional work samples, I am not sure of American firms and their culture. But I do have some Japanese acquaintances who took offence with job applicants proudly showcasing their fansub and scanlation experience in their portfolios.

One's portfolio should be carefully assembled to suit the intended audience. People who have found their niche in normal Japanese society seem to have a strong aversion to anything otaku, since interest in such things seems to imply that you have time on your hands, which in turn implies that your work ethic leaves something to be desired, and if you aren't a hard worker you aren't worthy to be called Japanese.

Very true. On top of that Japanese in general stress absolute obedience to rule and have high regard to their laws. They take the idea of copyright and privacy=illegal=evil very seriously, meaning that showing any trace of fansub/scanlation experience is a societal suicide, and to a lesser extent, a kiss of death to any job application.

A summary of the death flags:
- otaku = undesirable
- illegal translation = playing the law into one's hands / no regard to law
- any non-conventional act / outlaw attempt = too abnormal to be fit into the bottom of the command chain / difficult to control

[SkyFlames07]

Just to be sure, that JLPT3 is an exam?

Another question, I finished the Remembering the Kanji 1 and I can proudly say that those 270 kanjis got burned in my mind, at least for now... But after checking the second book it is such a dissapointment, since it is just to show the kun-reading and on-reading. I know that is excential if the word is on hiragana, but for now I just want to memorize the kanjis. So I was wondering, is there any other book that could help me to continue this nightmare? I still got 1700 character to go or so...

[Doraneko]

Just to be sure, that JLPT3 is an exam?

The full name is Japanese Language Proficiency Test, originally with 4 levels (1 to 4, with 4 being the lowest level) to currently 5 levels (N1 to N5, with N5 being the lowest level).

It is certainly not a perfect assessment of your Japanese proficiency, with quite a number of flaws such as having no oral test, no writing and relying solely on multiple choice questions.

But like it or not, as of now it is still the most widely recognized Japanese test for foreigners. Practically speaking it is a prerequisite to any career that requires Japanese capability.

[Mystes]

Another question, I finished the Remembering the Kanji 1 and I can proudly say that those 270 kanjis got burned in my mind, at least for now... But after checking the second book it is such a dissapointment, since it is just to show the kun-reading and on-reading. I know that is excential if the word is on hiragana, but for now I just want to memorize the kanjis. So I was wondering, is there any other book that could help me to continue this nightmare? I still got 1700 character to go or so...

As a Chinese-blooded guy, I recommend that you learn the basic kanjis, and then, learn the others by reading a lot. Thats how I remembered Chinese characters, since I never studied Chinese at school.

[SkyFlames07]

Another question, I finished the Remembering the Kanji 1 and I can proudly say that those 270 kanjis got burned in my mind, at least for now... But after checking the second book it is such a dissapointment, since it is just to show the kun-reading and on-reading. I know that is excential if the word is on hiragana, but for now I just want to memorize the kanjis. So I was wondering, is there any other book that could help me to continue this nightmare? I still got 1700 character to go or so...

As a Chinese-blooded guy, I recommend that you learn the basic kanjis, and then, learn the others by reading a lot. Thats how I remembered Chinese characters, since I never studied Chinese at school.

The problem over there is that the book I used only got 270 kanjis, skipped a lot of radicals and characters that are very used. And I am not abble to read even a simple manga because it got tons of hiragana, which just kills me as I don't know the pronunciations of many words. So at difference of some persons, I NEED to use textbook memorization to get it on my mind, it is not enough to use the program that Poke recommended, I just forget it after like 5 minutes... So yeah, I need another book with kanjis and some way to memorize them, or else, one that at least tells the primitives that compose them, so at least I can make myselft a way to remember it.

[Zell_ff8]

The problem over there is that the book I used only got 270 kanjis, skipped a lot of radicals and characters that are very used. And I am not abble to read even a simple manga because it got tons of hiragana, which just kills me as I don't know the pronunciations of many words. So at difference of some persons, I NEED to use textbook memorization to get it on my mind, it is not enough to use the program that Poke recommended, I just forget it after like 5 minutes... So yeah, I need another book with kanjis and some way to memorize them, or else, one that at least tells the primitives that compose them, so at least I can make myselft a way to remember it.

That happens to everyone. I also forget a kanji or a word in 5 minutes. But when I see it again, don't recognize it. The third time "aghh... I know this one... I know this one... I know this... I don't". and in two or 3 more times I find the same word I remember it.
It's by repetition rather than memorization. In my case it's backwards, if I memorize it, I forget it easily.

Read a lot and search everything you don't know. After searching 5 times the same thing you'll start remembering it naturally.
As for books anything other than a dictionary (Kodansha' Advanced Learners is great), I really liked Shin Nihongo no Kiso Kanji Workbooks. Between I and II you cover ~500 kanji.
Other more oriented to memorization is Reibun de Manabu Kanji to Kotoba (例文で学ぶ漢字と言葉), good for vocabulary and kanji associations by sound. There are by JLPT levels, I used the 2k and it got the 2000 kanji for that level. It has a workbook but I never used it, I think its for drawing the kanji

[rpapo]

FWIW, I now know roughly 500 kanji well enough so I don't have to look them up. About half of that was from rote memorization (via a PDA flashcard program), and the other half by zell_ff8's method: running into it, remembering but not remembering, looking it up, and then kicking yourself for not having remembered it. Enough times doing that, and you remember it . . . partly to avoid the pain of having to kick yourself again

[YoakeNoHikari]

I wish I could say that knowing Chinese helps you remember the pronunciation.

But it doesn't.

They mean roughly the same thing, though.

[kuroi_shinigami]

Very true. On top of that Japanese in general stress absolute obedience to rule and have high regard to their laws. They take the idea of copyright and privacy=illegal=evil very seriously, meaning that showing any trace of fansub/scanlation experience is a societal suicide, and to a lesser extent, a kiss of death to any job application.

A summary of the death flags:
- otaku = undesirable
- illegal translation = playing the law into one's hands / no regard to law
- any non-conventional act / outlaw attempt = too abnormal to be fit into the bottom of the command chain / difficult to control

Which is why even with my fascination of Japanese's culture and language(and food too ), I hesitate trying to work at Japan or even working at Japanese company. I'm not really the type to obey rule that well. I feel that in professional world, what is required from you is result, not just absolute obedience. Rule is just guideline to achieve the result easier. Not to mention I tried non-conventional act all the time in my work to achieve what I want.

Back to the topic though, for kanji, I feel that remembering them in a bulk has a bigger risk of also forgetting most of it. It's better to remember little by little, especially the more widely used one, by reading book or manga(or playing games). Even when you read a book, no need to remember all the kanji that you found at once, just go along with the pace you feel is the best and memorize just enough new ones so that you won't forget those new ones the next time you see them. When you have memorize enough, sometime you can know the pronunciation of some words that's made from two or more kanji, and even deduce their meaning from the individual kanji.