Dialogue syntax issues

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Da~Mike
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Dialogue syntax issues

Post by Da~Mike »

Dialogue syntax issues

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"


From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --Baltakatei 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

"I see... I understand."
What did you understand?
"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does."

Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
--Psieye 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Though on second thought, "her voice is so full of sadness" and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
--Psieye 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)



Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description.

Note in this example from Volume 1, Chapter 3, how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a

... let's begin searching!"

"......What are we looking for?"

Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.

vs.

EX.1b

... let's begin searching!"

Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.

"......What are we looking for?"

There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in Volume 1, Chapter 6 - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody (except maybe Nagato Yuki) could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to (and understanding of) the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--The naming game 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)


* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it. Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

Onizuka-gto 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)


* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. (Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.) In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. (I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)


(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)


That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I am starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
... let's begin searching!"

No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

"......What are we looking for?"


EX.1d
... let's begin searching!"

"......What are we looking for?"

-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.



The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!


EX.2b

"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!

EX.2c
Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!



This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

[Insert Haruhi monologue here]

Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.


EX.3b
Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

[Insert Haruhi monologue here]

Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.


EX.3c
Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

[Insert Haruhi monologue here]

When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.



My comments:

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. (shudder) Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.


By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--The naming game 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. ( ^^; )

Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical

Onizuka-gto 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. Baltakatei 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)


I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint. I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...). I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do). After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories: EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke: e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father." ..... Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example... Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's. EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered. EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.


--Da~Mike 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)
User avatar
Nutcase
Astral Realm

Post by Nutcase »

Greetings. I'm new here. I've started doing some "drive-by" editing on my second read-through, am still getting my bearings, don't want to either waste effort or annoy, but I probably have. Sorry about that.

I'm a native American English speaker with miniscule exposure to Japanese.

To address the ispecific examples you put forward;

Ex. 1

I favor 1c, as it comes closest to representing the natural flow of internal dialog. In the particular instance, the observation that, "No one else is going to ask? Fine." is the direct motive for asking. Motive precedes action.

In other instances, rationalization follows action. This is the nature of internal dialog. Placement comes down to a discrimination between motivation and rationalization. I think it's a clear choice in this particular case.

This stream of consciousness frame is the flip side of your real world timeline frame.

Ex 2

2b>2a>2b

2b represents startlement best and reads fine. 2a represents startlement okay and it's plain vanilla English. 2a is "good English" but loses the startlement. Insipid.

3b>3c>3a

Similar reasons to others, just the defective English in 3a annoys me much more than the foreshadowing of the monologue in 3c. In the stream of consciousness frame, the "without pause" arises as an aside in the monologue, so pushing it up or back is a compromise either way. Interjecting it would be the worst choice, in the particular instance.
popocatepetl
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Re: Dialogue syntax issues

Post by popocatepetl »

Much apreciated. Thanks for all the commentary here about dialogues. I learned something new today.

I think the author's intent supersedes the need to make the text flow better in English, as long as that intent expertly, meaningfully delivered through the masterful command of the English language (American or otherwise)
If only the finest birds in the forest dared sing, how quiet the forest would be.
-William W. Purkey
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