Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

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dragonst
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by dragonst »

I'll put seitokai no ichizon at 3 too, since the main difficulty lies in getting the translation to sound funny instead of thinking of how to translate it.

On the other hand, I'll put Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu at 4, since the sentence structures can be a little complicated at times, and for the fact that knowledge of classical music is required.

Are finished projects counted in this rating?
彼らの任務は一つ。
友軍のために死ぬこと。
誰にも知られることなく、散っていく命がありました。
決して語られることのない戦いがありました。
明日さえも見えない絶望の中で、今日を生きる権利すら奪われた戦士たち。
守るべき祖国から捨てられ、戦争の大義も、勝利の栄光も、自らの名前さえも奪われた戦士たち。
そして、理想を追い求め、自らの手を血に染める戦士たち。
戦場という絶望の中で、彼らが見た希望とは何だったのでしょうか?
そして、彼らが守り抜いたものとは、何だったでしょうか?
死か、それとも解放か?
これは、歴史を変えた名もなき戦士たちの物語。

-戦場のヴァルキュリア3-
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Poke2201
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Poke2201 »

But Seitokai usually is funny with literal translations as well. A little fudging of the words is needed, but its not hair ripping hard.
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Teh_ping
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Teh_ping »

All projects. You can even share experiences 8)
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Mystes
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Mystes »

Teh_ping wrote:All projects. You can even share experiences 8)
Ok then, but I won't share my experiance with what happened when I decided to translate Bakemonogatari for fun. You can all guess the result.

My personal opinion on IS is that it is not hard to translate for me, but it's rather because I often don't know a word if it hasn't a pinyin, which slows me down. And I wonder why it has tht much monologue. Maybe it's just my chapter?

As for HnA, I think that it's not balanced. You can have a 7 lines paragraph and then tons of dialogue.

SnI is hard for me since I don't know Japanese puns, but it's way much easier than the Monogatari series.

ZnT is complicated with the messed up geography and the spell names. Otherwise, it's still OK and easy.

BakaTest is maybe one of the most simple novel, since it uses the very basic words. Like my poor English.

Hakomari (damn, my autocorrection turned it into Hallmark) is complicated, and unfortunaly, for the word 'me', there's only one way to say it, not like Japanese with 'boku', 'ore' or 'watashi'.

SnS has a different writing style, and everyone agrees with that, I think.

Pretty long post, isn't it? Sorry...
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

Ahahaha, translating the monogatari series for fun never cross my mind. It's too hard with all the narrative, monologue, and description. Not to mention the obscure words, pun, word play, and reference in it XD. I personally give it 10/10 XD.
Fill in the blank : She ( ) a bus

Yoshii Akihisa's answer : She is a bus

Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Mystes »

kuroi_shinigami wrote:Ahahaha, translating the monogatari series for fun never cross my mind. It's too hard with all the narrative, monologue, and description. Not to mention the obscure words, pun, word play, and reference in it XD. I personally give it 10/10 XD.
Well, you see, I watched the anime and then decided to translate. So...

For some reason, I prefer watching the series rather than read it. Guess why.
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

Hahaha. Well, it was a good read, not so good to translate though :lol: .
Fill in the blank : She ( ) a bus

Yoshii Akihisa's answer : She is a bus

Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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Poke2201
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Poke2201 »

SnI is not as hard as it looks. Puns are a bit hard for me to notice though.
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Mystes »

Poke2201 wrote:SnI is not as hard as it looks. Puns are a bit hard for me to notice though.
The only reason why I notice puns in SnI is because the Chinese translator puts a note beside it LOL.
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Doraneko »

larethian wrote:this is another recommendation purely based on my own opinion: for non-native Japanese readers translating from Jpn->English, I seriously do not recommend anyone with less than 300 hours of study (either independent or academic) make an attempt, unless there is a more competent translator for that same series who's able (and willing) to proof-read for you. well actually, I personally think that 450 hrs is preferable, but gauging from school standards, 300 hrs provide you with basic mastery of grammar (less expressions) and a marginally sufficient amount of vocab. and even with that, you should start with level 4 and below. by study, I don't mean watching anime and stuff like that, but really studying, memorizing and practicing :p
Very much agreed. If a translator has to struggle himself to understand the text and flip the dictionary every minute or two, then I can't see how could the resulting translation possibly be of a satisfactory level. There is only oh-so-much an editor / translation checker can do if most of the details are missed in the poorly translated text.

I do understand that some people here use translation as a way to practise their Japanese, but there is also a minimum moral obligation that they do not do so at the expense of translation quality.

As a rule of thumb, for people with a Japanese level equivalent to JLPT3/N4 or JLPT4/N5 (less than 450 hours of study), I would recommend against attempting any kind of J to E novel translation. It would certainly be more comfortable for them to start with scanlations first and gradually build up their language skills. (Of course circumstances may vary for each individual and this is just a general advice)

Anyway, if I have to propose a rough rating system, I think it will be convenient to make it base on the JLPT level required.
Difficult (10 pts?)
- Beyond JLPT1/N1 (Working knowledge at a tertiary level)
- Frequent occurrence of vocabulary that Japanese working adults (university graduates) cannot grasp, or
- Some occurrence of archaic text (koubun, kanbun), or
- Frqeuent occurrence of complex sentence structures
- eg. Works of Kyoutarou Nishimura, Kyougoku Natsuhiko, etc

Upper Intermediate (7-9 pts?)
- JLPT 1/N1 (900 hours of study)
- Equivalent to the level of difficulty expected in conventional novels
- Some occurrence of vocabulary that Japanese working adults (university graduates) cannot grasp, or
- Frequent occurrence of self-created terms, or
- Frequent occurrence of hard-to-translate puns
- But as a whole, reasonably comprehensible to high school graduates
- eg. Works of Ishin Nishio, 12 Kokki, Shana, Yukikaze, etc

Lower Intermediate (4-6 pts?)
- JLPT 2/N2 (600 hours of study)
- The catch-all category for works that fall between "Upper Intermediate" and "Easy"
- Some cultural or academic references that are reasonably understandable to late junior school or early high school students
- eg. Oreimo, Kino, Wolf & Spice, etc

Easy (1-3 pts?)
-JLPT 2.5/N3 (450 hours of study)
- Considerably easier than conventional novels
- Remarkably large number of dialogues and small number of descriptive text, or
- Low page density (small amount of content per page)
- Fully comprehensible to junior school students.
- eg. Most of the dialogue-based light novels such as Seizon
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by YoakeNoHikari »

HnA is probably a 3.

Probably. Looking at the Japanese raws, I can understand most of it, even though I've not been studying Japanese for more than 50 hours...
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dragonst
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by dragonst »

The recommended hours of study for the level of Japanese proficiency is just a rough guide, since it took me only about 200 to get to JLPT N2 without any prior knowledge of the language. On the other hand, I do agree with Doraneko's system that follows the JLPT grades, since they're quite clear about the level of language proficiency required for each band of difficulty.
彼らの任務は一つ。
友軍のために死ぬこと。
誰にも知られることなく、散っていく命がありました。
決して語られることのない戦いがありました。
明日さえも見えない絶望の中で、今日を生きる権利すら奪われた戦士たち。
守るべき祖国から捨てられ、戦争の大義も、勝利の栄光も、自らの名前さえも奪われた戦士たち。
そして、理想を追い求め、自らの手を血に染める戦士たち。
戦場という絶望の中で、彼らが見た希望とは何だったのでしょうか?
そして、彼らが守り抜いたものとは、何だったでしょうか?
死か、それとも解放か?
これは、歴史を変えた名もなき戦士たちの物語。

-戦場のヴァルキュリア3-
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larethian
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by larethian »

there is however an insanely large number of zokugo and urban words these days that fall out of JLPT scope.
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by Doraneko »

I include the hours since there are people who have not taken the test but has some degree of Japanese proficiency. For such a case the study hour can give a general estimate as to the minimum level they are expected to have achieved.

For people who have already taken the exam, there is no point to stick to the rigid hour requirement. More than usual people need much less time to clear the exams. I have a certain friend who dropped out from high school. He then just spent 1 year as an eroge hikkikomori and got JLPT1. Strictly speaking his formal study hours were likely less than 50.

As for zokugo, they are certainly of concern but I don't think they are that siginificant when compared to conventional measures of language level. Slang words are prevalent in teen fiction in any language. Once you have the fundamental language capability ready, you can easily pick new words up by exposure, such as reading light novels extensively or frequenting Japanese bulletin boards. But if you don't even have a sound lanaguage background, no matter how much time you spend on 2ch shouting at people you will still be unqualified as a translator.
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Re: Discussion for potential tier-list for translations.

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

I'm still having difficulty understanding dialect. Most used dialect I encounter so far is Osaka-ben(actually Kansai-ben) and it's quite difficult for me to understand the meaning of kansai-ben if they don't use kanji. I also sometimes encounter another dialect that use べ in the dialogue ending a lot, I think it's from Hiroshima or somewhere north. I wonder where can we self-learn these kind of dialect?
Fill in the blank : She ( ) a bus

Yoshii Akihisa's answer : She is a bus

Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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