Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

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EusthEnoptEron
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by EusthEnoptEron »

I just recalled this article by Moogy on editing in general, which might be relevant to this topic. I think he raises a few good points and brings up some common literalization "mistakes". At least, I could relate with quite a few of them and go あるある!超ある!.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by Rava »

EusthEnoptEron wrote:I just recalled this article by Moogy on editing in general, which might be relevant to this topic. I think he raises a few good points and brings up some common literalization "mistakes". At least, I could relate with quite a few of them and go あるある!超ある!.
Haven't seen that before, but I really love it.

These lines in particular, I feel, are frequently ignored:
Oh, and there’s one more thing you should be aware of: You are dealing with someone else’s writing, not your own. It is of absolute importance that you endeavor not only to express the author’s concepts in English, but to express the author’s concepts in English in the manner that he or she would have done so were he or she to have written his or her work in English in the first place.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by pudding321 »

I felt the need to drop this interview here.

http://www.technologytell.com/gaming/11 ... ings-done/

He's definitely not the best translator around, but he's generally right. He has used 0 translator notes in the translation (certainly because it's a game) and dealt with being said as disrespectful to the original work. (Though, it is virtually impossible in our translations since we couldn't possibly ask the author for his opinion in localisation.)
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by onizuka-gto »

Ah, how nice to see this being discuss again. :lol:

I remember during the first Baka-Tsuki Wiki Wars, this debate went on for months.

Since my first involvement as an Editor here, my stance has been Liberalization and to this day i still stand by this philosophy.

My reasoning is simple, we are not professional, we are not for profit and we are certainly not a translation "Group", "Guild" or whatever you wish to call it.

The main objective i have always wish to promote and maintain, is accessibility.

If it is easy to read in English (substitute your alternative language here), people will read it.

Now the question of authors style, personality or doing them justice, has always been a counter-point. These criticism are valid and i certainly do not deny them.

However, if you are to take this stance, you must do it 100%, not 99.5% not even 99.9%, everything. Only can you stand by your justification can you maintain this stance.

The question of Baka-Tsuki taking this stance, is frankly, unobtainable. Even with a clear line of authority and strict discipline, this is just not possible to rely on just amateur translators. This is professional territory.

Of course, many disagreed with us, thus sparked a mighty war that rage across the Baka-Tsuki heavens.....Ahh im rambling again.
Getting back on track....

Therefore the alternative is to at least, be able to convey the spirit and the story of the authors work and to be able to bring their universe alive and in the process will help encourage more interest in Light novels.

The other obvious intent was to bring this interest to the publishers and convince them that it was worthy of them to translate these novels by a team of professional and eventually bring us a translation that can satisfy both sides of the divide.

So, in hindsight, i think my stance is pretty much justified, while the materialization of seeing these fantastic novels released in the west has been a rollercoaster, i'm sure as long as we continue down this path, we will eventually see release of light novels just like we see manga flourish today. Hopefully within my lifetime. :roll: :lol: :wink:
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by pudding321 »

Well, I am aiming for professional level... :P
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by Hiyono »

I'd brought this up in channel before, but I'm curious to see the opinion of others. How do you guys feel about the Ship of Theseus paradox as it pertains to the act of translation? Quoting from Wikipedia, this paradox poses the following problem: "The ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's paradox, is a paradox that raises the question of whether an object which has had all its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object."

This seems to me to be particularly pertinent to this discussion. If you adapt, i.e. replace, all components of the original, is it still the same thing? (There are, of course, a million other questions this raises, even in this context. Feel free to address whatever you'd like.)
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by onizuka-gto »

Hiyono wrote:I'd brought this up in channel before, but I'm curious to see the opinion of others. How do you guys feel about the Ship of Theseus paradox as it pertains to the act of translation? Quoting from Wikipedia, this paradox poses the following problem: "The ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's paradox, is a paradox that raises the question of whether an object which has had all its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object."

This seems to me to be particularly pertinent to this discussion. If you adapt, i.e. replace, all components of the original, is it still the same thing? (There are, of course, a million other questions this raises, even in this context. Feel free to address whatever you'd like.)
Interesting question! :lol:

It's a complicated question to answer, so let me answer it with a question!

Is a movie adaptation of a novel still consider the same as the novel?
i.e.
Starship Trooper vs. Starship Trooper the Hollywood movie.
Lord of the Rings vs. Fellowship of the Ring
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by cramped »

It's not really like it is the original work anyway since we butcher it into another language; cultural differences and the likes. Also, for the liberal vs literal parts I think it depends on how the translators interpret it, in my case I go literal since I think I need to preserve the original text as much as possible. Furthermore, it will be hard for non-native speakers like me (Thailand), my knowledge of english maybe good in my country, but compare to the others I am mediocre at best; this also applies to the fact that my vocabulary pool is limited + my understanding of the language like how people would normally speak, thus this lead to difficulty in translating (I think?).

The other problem is the onomatopoeia I think (in CH since I only know CH), sometimes one word can be use to describe many others in english. EX. eh, ah, oh.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by Vanril »

For me, the basic guideline would pretty much be "Don't lose the original meaning of the phrase."

Going too literal will just make it too stiff and unnatural. But damn it's like a nightmare when I stumble upon some translation that's far off the original meaning,
when I get the chance to compare and feel like "Wth, is this actually supposed to be the same story at all?!"

I guess I'd say that for those with less experience more literal translating would be good, to hopefully not stray too far off the original meaning,
and for more experienced ones that have the resources, a moderately liberal translating would bring a more natural feel.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by decemdies »

I'm so glad i found this discussion page. As a translator, I always had problems transforming the essence of the light novel into english words. Props to EusthEnoptEron & pudding321for the links. They were really helpful!

However, I'm not commenting here just to waste forum space. I'd like to raise some questions:

1) How should we go about translating character mannerisms? Occasionally, you might find characters speaking with ~de arimasu, ~nya, etc,.......and rarely you might find characters using ~su as in ないす which is not the English word 'nice' but the transliteral word 'No ~su.'

2) How should we also go about retaining certain translations such as how a person addresses another. To illustrate what I mean:

Let's assume there are 4 girls and 1 guy in a harem novel(That cliche formula)
Let the guy be named Ichika(from IS) because Ichika-type characters are quite prevalent in the light novel industry.
Each girl might address the MC with different honorifics such as Ichika-kun, Ichika-chan, Ichika, or Ichika-san.

I usually see the honorifics untranslated but sometimes I also see Mr.Ichika(as in from Ichika-san). With that said, should we only address said character with the formal Mr. Ichika depending on the context?

Finally, what about the use of the word baka? I know that "You are such a baka" is Engrish but what about:

Ichika is so dense.......baka VS Ichika is so dense.....idiot.

I understand that the latter choice would be more accesible to the native english speaker but there's just an allure to having that one japanese word in the former sentence.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by Detalz »

Well, that's the thing with liberalization. Not only do you have to understand the language you're translating from, but you also need a masterful knowledge of the language you're translating to.

1) The choice is really yours. I would personally avoid tagging them on (i.e. No ~su). There are subtle ways that exist to indicate the difference, such as usage of exclamation, wording choice. There's too many possible meanings for 'ないす' without having the proper context. But assuming it was a simple response to a question, consider "No", "Nope", "Not for me", "Not for me!", "Didn't happen", or more creative ways that are currently beyond me. There are many alternative ways to phrase it that subtly reflect regional locales/speaking styles.

2) I think the problem stemming from this is the overly common translation of 'baka' as idiot. In english, there's about fifty or more ways to call someone an idiot. In Japanese, there's....4 or 5 I can think of on the spot. Keep in mind that colloquialisms are often the most annoying to translate, due to differences in culture. I'd normally translate the sentence to "You're too dense, Ichika....." since following such a comment, I think a normal English speaker would blame the culprit in internal dialogue, and not say it out loud. Of course, if you wanted to voice it out, you could use something like, "You're too dense, Ichika....you duncehead." (Yea, I made up that word. It should be dunce, but using that word alone doesn't quite convey the meaning). An alternative would be voicing what you believe would be the reason why she's conflicted over his actions. "You're too dense, Ichika......and too nice for your own good." (This is one example, in a case where she's somewhat angry at him for being nice to others and neglecting himself.) If you want to be liberal, it's usually better to add whole lines when necessary, even when it's not reflected in the text. Or you can be lazy and go literal, especially if you're not too comfortable in overly changing the structures in your translations.

The line between liberalization and literalization lies in creativity. Direct translations of colloqualisms almost never work out. Yet, it's usually very hard to find/think of that one line that properly conveys the meaning. But if I had to choose between the two choices you provided in 2), I'd go with "Ichika is so dense.....baka". Typical tsundere reaction, that 'idiot' is like an incorrect appropriation of.

Hope this offers some insight.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by larethian »

decemdies wrote:I'm so glad i found this discussion page. As a translator, I always had problems transforming the essence of the light novel into english words. Props to EusthEnoptEron & pudding321for the links. They were really helpful!

However, I'm not commenting here just to waste forum space. I'd like to raise some questions:

1) How should we go about translating character mannerisms? Occasionally, you might find characters speaking with ~de arimasu, ~nya, etc,.......and rarely you might find characters using ~su as in ないす which is not the English word 'nice' but the transliteral word 'No ~su.'

2) How should we also go about retaining certain translations such as how a person addresses another. To illustrate what I mean:

Let's assume there are 4 girls and 1 guy in a harem novel(That cliche formula)
Let the guy be named Ichika(from IS) because Ichika-type characters are quite prevalent in the light novel industry.
Each girl might address the MC with different honorifics such as Ichika-kun, Ichika-chan, Ichika, or Ichika-san.

I usually see the honorifics untranslated but sometimes I also see Mr.Ichika(as in from Ichika-san). With that said, should we only address said character with the formal Mr. Ichika depending on the context?

Finally, what about the use of the word baka? I know that "You are such a baka" is Engrish but what about:

Ichika is so dense.......baka VS Ichika is so dense.....idiot.

I understand that the latter choice would be more accesible to the native english speaker but there's just an allure to having that one japanese word in the former sentence.
You can just use 'dummy'. It's pretty close in tone.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by decemdies »

Detalz wrote: Hope this offers some insight.
That was really helpful. Thanks.
larethian wrote: You can just use 'dummy'. It's pretty close in tone.
So if we go with using 'dummy', then I take that it's always better to change as many words into English as possible and not leave any words in Japanese. In other words, liberalizing as much as possible without losing the ambience of the novel is the way to go?
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by hayashi_s »

decemdies wrote:
larethian wrote: You can just use 'dummy'. It's pretty close in tone.
So if we go with using 'dummy', then I take that it's always better to change as many words into English as possible and not leave any words in Japanese. In other words, liberalizing as much as possible without losing the ambience of the novel is the way to go?
Yes. As a rule of thumb I only keep Japanese words that are universally recognised (kimono, sushi) or significant to warrant maintaining it in Japanese (katana, futon, tatami).

As for words like 'Baka', 'sugoi', 'oishii'... Well, personally I feel they should never be left in that form. Makes you sound like a total weaboo and it ruins the flow of the sentence in English. If you still feel like you're lost, try vocalising the sentence out loud, that helps.
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Re: Discussion: Liberalization VS Literalization

Post by IlkatSumil »

hayashi_s wrote:As for words like 'Baka', 'sugoi', 'oishii'... Well, personally I feel they should never be left in that form. Makes you sound like a total weaboo and it ruins the flow of the sentence in English.
Different medium, but I'm reminded of the commercial release of I My Me! Strawberry Eggs where they transliterated the word "kyoushi" instead of translating it into "teacher." I watched that back when I was a dumb weaboo who naively thought literal translations were the best thing ever, and I still hated that they did that because it sounded so stupid. It's not as if "kyoushi" has a special cultural meaning, and it did ruin the flow of the subs. (And, if I recall correctly, they did the same pointless thing with a bunch of other words; "kyoushi" is just the one I remember.)

Then there's the problem of English words in the original Japanese. Not loanwords or random English for the sake of fashion, but actual English, with actual meaning, that's meant to be taken as foreign. (Or even random, fashionable English if it's treated kind of meta, like in Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai.) It's a hairy thing to deal with for either literal or liberal translations. I know some pro translations will just choose a third language, but that doesn't always work. And, as much as I prefer liberalization these days, a change that big can go too far.
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