TAMnI: The present problem of past/present tenses

[larethian]

@Snorca

I did read it :p. To add on, present tense in narrating just doesn't work as well and sound less natural in English than in Japanese. Aside from the different perspective of telling the story in real-time, there is also the matter of difference in language. They are just different. For example (not going to specifics though), Japanese use the same form for continuous and also, at times perfect tense if the action or situation in question that has been performed has an ongoing effect. And many a times, what appears in simple present tense in Japanese should be rendered into present continuous tense in English, or it will sound really unnatural. Because simple present in Japanese works for 'now' actions, but in English, it just doesn't create the feeling of the action happening right 'now', but rather sounds like a narrator telling you the story in bad English. On top of that, I have experienced mixed tenses in strange places, like something that was supposed to be happening in real-time but is described in past tense, and I could only interpret that as 'you', a spirit in the scene, noticed the action only moments after it has happened.

Lastly, this is not an exclusive problem to TAMnI, but to other light novels as well. I do have to admit though that translators may not be the best people to seek consultation at times unless they are very conscious of good English. At least speaking for myself, since I can render English words using Japanese grammatical rules and don't find it odd-sounding until someone points it out to me.

[Darklor]

Another question, how long are we going to leave the poll on?

At the moment it dosent have an ending date - so if you think you have enough votes for a conclusion and think that the poll was long enough open you could call it closed

[Teh_ping]

Spoiler! :

It's a method of writing stories. The general style is the write in past tense because if someone were to tell you a story, he would tell you the story that had happened. This is under the logic that the story he's telling is something that has obviously happened already or else he wouldn't be sitting down telling you it. This is the main argument for telling stories in past tense, the story told has already happened. The main issue for this style is how the author often goes back and talks about events that had happened. However, there is often no problem in the transition since he always says how far back the flashback is, but at the same time, it's more easily noticed when the tense suddenly changes.

The argument for present tense storytelling is that it gives the reader a sense of "being in the story at the moment". This gives the feeling of intense action that really works wonderfully in action scenes. However, this style does not work as well when actions are being explained or anything that has nothing to do with actions. In these styles of writing, it is more preferred for characters in the story to do the explanation and for the POV to be first person. Also, this feeling of being in the moment comes at a cost of being choppy and lack of sense of sequence. There is no feeling of pauses and the narrator should not be omniscient. Of course, being omniscient is totally the writer's decision, but it eliminates some of the being in the moment sense because if you're in the moment, you shouldn't be aware of everything.

The drawback of To Aru being told by an omniscient narrator in a present tense style forces the reader to constantly, albeit usually unconsciously for most readers, switch senses of being in the moment and being an observer that's listening to someone reiterate the surroundings. To help ease this sequence, in my edits, I have tried to get rid of words that have given the narrator the sense of being omniscience.

*Doubts anyone even bothered to read this*

Spoiler! :

@Snorca

I did read it :p. To add on, present tense in narrating just doesn't work as well and sound less natural in English than in Japanese. Aside from the different perspective of telling the story in real-time, there is also the matter of difference in language. They are just different. For example (not going to specifics though), Japanese use the same form for continuous and also, at times perfect tense if the action or situation in question that has been performed has an ongoing effect. And many a times, what appears in simple present tense in Japanese should be rendered into present continuous tense in English, or it will sound really unnatural. Because simple present in Japanese works for 'now' actions, but in English, it just doesn't create the feeling of the action happening right 'now', but rather sounds like a narrator telling you the story in bad English. On top of that, I have experienced mixed tenses in strange places, like something that was supposed to be happening in real-time but is described in past tense, and I could only interpret that as 'you', a spirit in the scene, noticed the action only moments after it has happened.

Lastly, this is not an exclusive problem to TAMnI, but to other light novels as well. I do have to admit though that translators may not be the best people to seek consultation at times unless they are very conscious of good English. At least speaking for myself, since I can render English words using Japanese grammatical rules and don't find it odd-sounding until someone points it out to me.

I agree very much on how present tense doesn't feel right, at all. Honestly, it's definitely weird to use present tense so exclusively. If you read my translations, you'll realise that like Larethian said, present continuous and present perfect fits better than simple present tense, which I have been doing all this time. When I translate, I would read it out verbally or imagine how a commentator would read it (blame the NBA). In other words, I don't imagine it as how it would look in a novel, but how it would sound on the television. Of course, with all the changes about present and past tenses (which I know a lot of people were editing to), it's hard to tell. Past tense would feel natural in English, but I'm imagining it like a narrator in some sort of a skit, so...

[Kadi]

I agree very much on how present tense doesn't feel right, at all. Honestly, it's definitely weird to use present tense so exclusively. If you read my translations, you'll realise that like Larethian said, present continuous and present perfect fits better than simple present tense, which I have been doing all this time. When I translate, I would read it out verbally or imagine how a commentator would read it (blame the NBA). In other words, I don't imagine it as how it would look in a novel, but how it would sound on the television. Of course, with all the changes about present and past tenses (which I know a lot of people were editing to), it's hard to tell. Past tense would feel natural in English, but I'm imagining it like a narrator in some sort of a skit, so...

But wouldn't it still be present tense even if you use present progressive and present perfect? The discussion should be about whether to use

a) Past tenses: simple past, past progressive, [past perfect (progressive)]
or b) Present tenses: simple present, present progressive, [present perfect (progressive)]

to tell the main story. There shouldn't be a need to say that you need to adapt when necessary. Be it within one time-level (between simple present, present progessive, (present perfect) or shifting it one step further into the past. [Didn't anyone read the examples from Hakomari I linked 2 pages back? Apart from that, it feels like I made this very same point already back then...]


Now, if we can agree that the decision is between the choices a) and b) I just mentioned, it comes down to whether you want to use...

a) "Typical" English for stories, because people are used to it and for all the other advantages of past tenses that were already mentioned (non-action related stuff is easier)
or b) Give a more dynamic, action-oriented feel with present tenses. Some odd feelings, problematic non-actions and possibly troublesome editing included. But Index has got quite a few action scenes, so you might still want to go with this

And as I also mentioned in the thread on chapter titles : Don't leave such decisions up to a public poll. Take a few qualified people related to the project and make a reasonable decision in private. I'm not sure who contributes the most, but I'd suggest a group like... teh_ping and flere for the translating side and enigma and tact for the editing side? And maybe joay to make it an odd number and because he was around the longest. [Or at least give me a reason why you absolutely must do it with a poll where the uninformed, stupid public gets to take part in the decision making.]

Spoiler! :

P.S.: This discussion is really great comedy for me. Although a bit sad. I wonder whether you will ever come to a decision, and what kind of decision it will be...

So please entertain me some more.

[Enigma]

[Didn't anyone read the examples from Hakomari I linked 2 pages back?]

Of course. I just have bad memory.

And as I also mentioned in the thread on chapter titles: Don't leave such decisions up to a public poll. Take a few qualified people related to the project and make a reasonable decision in private.

We sort of have, twice, on the talk page. Aside from Flere (I haven't actually read much of volume 22 yet, as while I don't mind skipping volumes, I can wait for it be done so I can read it not backwards, even if it does take place in Russia.), Tact was using present tense as his editing format and Ping was/is translating in present. It's just every time a potential new member arrives, the issue springs up again. Furthermore, this poll could just as easily turn out to be a poll of opinions as much as a decisive poll (I don't think we ever specified either, anyway). Technicalities aside, it's not all that great of a public poll regardless, with the whole 17 votes including the project-related people. Besides, past tense winning over present tense in public opinion would be far from surprising, since people enjoy tradition and all.

I would bring Joay into this, but he seems to enjoy his neutrality. Can't really blame him since neutrality is my preference as well.

I'm not sure who contributes the most

I would assume it would be the person who translated roughly 5½ novels out of the 9-ish translated.

[Or at least give me a reason why you absolutely must do it with a poll where the uninformed, stupid public gets to take part in the decision making.]

That spurred a chuckle out of me.

Spoiler! :

P.S.: This discussion is really great comedy for me. Although a bit sad. I wonder whether you will ever come to a decision, and what kind of decision it will be...

So please entertain me some more.

And that made me grin. You have my gratitude.

Aside from me abusing the quote tags, there are other less-immediate issues I plan to bring up eventually anyway.

[SilverPhyX]

Okay, looking at the lengths, I decided to just edit the Prologue of Volume 7 into proper storytelling tenses.

Since it looks absolutely horrible pasted into a forum post, here is a MediaFire link.

http://www.mediafire.com/?jyrn2p7hyaae446

Ignore the bolded bits, as those were just for me to keep track of my changes...which I forgot to do for all the new edits I made while changing tenses. Damn.

When I am finished with edits, would it be bad if I just pasted over the previous version?

Also, if anyone can offer insight into the questions I had about the translation that are in that document (the italicized portions), get them to me in some manner. That would be greatly appreciated.

SilverPhyX

P.S.
By the way, anyone know how to change the text of the link instead of just showing the address?

[Enigma]

By the way, anyone know how to change the text of the link instead of just showing the address?

Just quote this post to find out. Just the same Mediafire link as above. And copy-pasting would be slightly bad, as there's small amounts of wiki coding, like comment tags or navigation links.

Anyway, about your italicized questions, the second one is actually answered on the page.

I am aware she supposedly speaks strangely in Japanese, is the “culled” being used to give that impression in English?

Tact answers that with a commentary tag (you can't see them unless you go into the wiki's edit tab, so I assume you just copy-pasted the main page):

<!--Tact: I decided to make Laura's dialogue verbose and stilted on purpose- at least, up until it's addressed in the story.-->

For

(“the British Puritans” or just “British Puritanism”?)

as Teh Ping has been translating that as "English Anglicans" now, you may want to change those to that. (There's also a long discussion on the main talk page if you want to know why.)

And about the "Father" question: yes, a priest. I believe the word used is 神父. And no, I didn't feel like quoting it.

[SilverPhyX]

Thanks Enigma. Although, strangely, I was using that format to try and post the link, but on the preview it didn't show up as that. Weird.

Also, yeah, about Laura's speech, I know she was supposed to have a weird way of speaking, but I am not aware how any of the meanings of "culled" apply to that particular situation. I was more asking about why that particular word was there. As in, is that supposed to be a mistake in order to highlight the strange way she speaks.

I appreciate the help on the rest, though...what are your thoughts on the tense change? Does it make a better impression than the current version, a worse one, or do you not mind either way?

[Teh_ping]

Besides, past tense winning over present tense in public opinion would be far from surprising, since people enjoy tradition and all.

And another thing to note is that on the talk page, we actually had a 4-2 vote in favour of present tense.

I would bring Joay into this, but he seems to enjoy his neutrality. Can't really blame him since neutrality is my preference as well.

And I would too, if only my work isn't one of the things being debated on.

I'm not sure who contributes the most

I would assume it would be the person who translated roughly 5½ novels out of the 9-ish translated.

Now who would that be...

Spoiler! :

P.S.: This discussion is really great comedy for me. Although a bit sad. I wonder whether you will ever come to a decision, and what kind of decision it will be...

So please entertain me some more.

It will never end, so you can continue to visit this page (and we can all increase our post count )

Okay, half-joking, half-sarcastic aside, I would definitely prefer to keep mine the way it is.

[Shoe]

I don't think this should be up to the readers to decide through voting. I mean, as a reader, I understand that I do not understand written Chinese/Japanese etc. Shouldn't be up to the ones that understand it? I'm thinking out loud here, you translators that can read the raws/books have a better idea of what is appropriate.

I'm good with whatever you guys end up choosing, whether is unanimous or every translator for itself, so I'm excluding myself from the poll, and also because I'm not an English native speaker( maybe that's why I think is not up to us readers? ).

[thewizardninja]

I don't think this should be up to the readers to decide through voting. I mean, as a reader, I understand that I do not understand written Chinese/Japanese etc. Shouldn't be up to the ones that understand it? I'm thinking out loud here, you translators that can read the raws/books have a better idea of what is appropriate.

I'm good with whatever you guys end up choosing, whether is unanimous or every translator for itself, so I'm excluding myself from the poll, and also because I'm not an English native speaker( maybe that's why I think is not up to us readers? ).

I agree. I say you guys remove the poll and just leave this as a place for people to leave their opinions on the matter in the hope that we can affect your decision. You really shouldn't leave it up to us, I mean we aren't the ones translating the novels so we shouldn't be the ones to decide important things like this, not to mention there isn't really enough feedback from it to make a good judgment based on it. Personally I don't think it's necessary to standardise this kind of thing between novels, it's only really important if more than one person is working on the same novel that it should become an issue and in those cases it should be up to those people to decide between themselves what to do. I mean if Flere wants to use past tense then he should and if Teh Ping wants to use present tense then he should, don't be forced to change your translating style just because some of us want you to.

[Kadi]

Well, the magical faeries of the literature world (called editors) allow translators to do whatever they like and you can still get consistent tenses and style over all the translated novels, so for the translators, nothing would change. And as an editor, I do believe it's better to have consistency not only within single novels, but over the whole project.

[Darklor]

The translators wouldnt have to change their translating style, only the editors would have a lot more work to do... A unificated style isnt really necessary, but it would be appropriate at least if it were a officialy translation since the whole series is written by one author who probably didnt change his writing style in the whole series - or did he?

[Enigma]

What are your thoughts on the tense change? Does it make a better impression than the current version, a worse one, or do you not mind either way?

Before I get into this, I think "culled" can be used that way. And if it can't, she speaks oddly regardless. Anyway, I think the tense changes are fine. Personally, I think the impression is roughly the same, but I honestly couldn't care about the tenses. I pay more attention to the context rather than the tenses anyway, which is probably why volume 12 and 13 in their original mixed-tense format doesn't really bother me. I'm aware that tenses are more important for some novels that have harder to grasp contexts (like psychological novels), but Index makes it clear enough.

author who probably didnt change his writing style in the whole series - or did he?

I've heard his writing has gotten better, though the style changing I haven't heard about. He certainly does write enough projects to get better, anyway.

[SilverPhyX]

Man, it really seems that a lot of people just don't mind things being either way. I would include myself under that category, since I can make sense of things regardless of tense, but I feel, for presentation's sake, one tense ought to be decided on.

I'm all for past tense.