TAMnI: The present problem of past/present tenses

[Snorca]

So, this is a very controversial topic, but I believe we really need to set a norm for how we write this story. I realize that I'm going against the something that has already been set so far where the story is written in present tense (except for the small part that I've edited to be otherwise). In this topic, I think we should maybe discuss how we should take this story to be told in the past tense or present tense. To avoid giving any biases on the first post in the topic, I’ll jot down my feelings on the following post and update the pro’s and con’s on this post.

Oh, I’d love for some translators to add some input into the discussion as well as to how they feel the author is trying to relay story-like events at the moment or trying to relay a story from that happened. Translators probably don’t have to worry about changing any of their routine in translating because this is more of an editor’s job to worry about tenses and stuff. If it’s a matter effort to change all the written text into past tense, I wouldn’t mind doing that if there’s a demand for it.

[Snorca]

While reading the story in present tense, I felt many times where words or actions just seem out of place because there just seems to be no sequence in events despite the fact that the sequence is quite explicit.

After Daihaseisai, the workers have been in alert mode as they continue to remove the equipment, and during these days, the students now get a break. Maybe it’s because they tried to force the planning of the trip that resulted in this being so urgent — to ask for a passport in this situation, if something is to happen, he doesn’t know how to explain it.

I believe that I should remove the “have” but it’s a question of whether the workers are STILL in alert mode and whether they are still removing equipment.
I can understand how reading in present tense feels that everything is happening in the moment, but when it comes to telling the stories when many sequences of actions are happening at the same time, it feels very distorted as to what happened first or whether they happened at the same time.
It just picks at me when I read in present tense is when I read actions that require a period of time to perform but it feels like it was done instantaneously the moment we get to the next sentence.

The calico cat curled up nearby is shocked and jumps off the bed, grabs the clothes hanging on the wall and leaps into the closet.
At this moment, the calico cat kicks a dusty tangled item out of the closet, which lands onto Kamijou’s face that is facing up.

Finally, I don’t know if anyone else feels annoyed when I read things like: “he thinks…” It just feels like unless it’s written in a first person perspective or an assumption made, the word “think” should never be used, yet due to the need to be consistent, the word “think” or “is thinking” Is necessary for “thought.”

So there must be a trap, Kamijou thinks.
Therefore, he mustn’t go for this trip full of traps, Kamijou thinks.

So far, I feel that writing in present tense is more of an artistic method where an author tries to be creative in making the reader think more than necessary. It serves some purpose into making things seem to be at-the-moment and has a certain poetic feel to it at times, but seeing as how TAMnI (at least in my opinion) isn’t aiming for that angle, I think it should be in past tense where we get the feeling that everything written has happened already and is being retold to us by some anonymous narrator. I’ve read stories that have beautifully use present tense to tell stories, but I don’t think this story fits that angle.
Anyway, that’s my couple of cents. If someone will provide some reasons as to why the story would be better left in present tense, it’d be much appreciated. I’d love to read some counter arguments.

[larethian]

Note that I'm NOT translating TAMnI NOR am I making a recommendation here. Just offering some insight on the difference in languages for the editors.

The Japanese authors usually use a mix of present and past tenses in light novels. Usually present tense is used as the story unfolds. It's like the author is telling you the story in real time; like you are watching a movie. However, while this creates a better flow and seems more natural in Japanese, it does sound odd in English, as traditionally, narrative tense in English is in the past tense. Reading lots of singular present tense in English narration does sound awkward to me, especially when there are temporal conjunctions (like "after that" or "then" are used and the preceding sentence is in present tense).

On top of that, there is often a blur line between monologue and narration in the novels, especially when there's a tendency to omit subjects in Japanese sentences, assuming you can infer them yourself. This adds to the confusion sometimes for the translator to decide whether a sentence is monologue-class (present tense)? Or narrative-class (past tense in natural narrative English)? Based on the sentence structure, there are times when the author is telling you what goes on inside the head of a character in a third person perspective, and there are times when you are actually listening in to inner thoughts of a character directly, and there are times when it's hard to tell.

Additionally, since there is no concept of tenses in Chinese, if the translator translates from Chinese source material, he has to make his own decision.

What I said probably won't help much in resolving this, but it should give a better insight on how the problem arose.

[Snorca]

Ah, that explains a lot to me. One person once told me that they're supposed to be in present tense, and when I read from the Chinese text, I didn't see how this could be. I didn't realize that Japanese had tenses. That's definitely a point for keeping it in present tenses.

[Snorca]

Is there a way I can change this topic to include a poll? So far, I believe it's 4-2 in favor of leaving this as present tense.

Side note: Heh, I originally thought it would be more work for me if I were to change things to past tense, but I now realize that it's more work to keep things in present tense IMO. With present tense, the narrator's usage of "before" and "after" have to be replaced, "should, would, could" have to be replaced, and other such words that indicate that the narrator knows what's going to happen to be replaced.

[Vaelis]

I like it only when it's in past tense.

[Snorca]

Oh, we should probably put "mixed" into the "present tense" category. The narrator in TAMnI sometimes do recaps and there is no way to do those without using past tense.

[Matt122004]

Personally, the way it's currently written in present tense, I just can't enjoy it. It's terribly awkward, unnatural, and lacks a flow. I am fully in favor of editing it all to past tense unless the story demands present tense for a particular phrase or scene.

[Teh_ping]

Well, I myself agree that it's extremely choppy, even though i use present tense (with the exceptions of past tense for things that have already passed, like some dialogue or past events). The problem is that I'm so used to the mixed version that I can't change it so naturally, which is why I requested for editors, or in the worst case scenario, I tried to be an editor and maybe change them to the past tense for some other LNs here. Of course, I ended up just focusing on translating anyway.

Anyway, does anyone know of any English books that uses present tense exclusively? I want to have some form of a reference. If this ends up being in past tense, it might be hard for me to change back, but I know that I can go through it at 4/5th the speed I'm going now.

[Darklor]

You as the translator shouldnt worry too much about it. If it is correct how you have done the translation, but others dont like it they could do three things read it as it is, change it (yet to find of a compromise or result of a discussion here) or leave it alone...

Btw. how is it in the translations done which are offically translated and published if the origin was a mix of present and past tense?

[Teh_ping]

Good question. Anyone can help check the Haruhi novels?

[larethian]

Hmm, previously I thought using present tense will be all awkward, but recently I started translating chapter 4 of dai densetsu no yuusha no densetsu following the original tense (previously I did everything in past tense), and it didn't seem all that bad. I believe the key is in the choice of English words used. Using more straight-forward and direct and high action-oriented verbs in present tense didn't feel that choppy at all, provided that during translation, the translator needs to keep in mind that the scene is unfolding in real time when he is choosing his words and structuring his sentences. Just my two cents.

[Teh_ping]

However, it's a case of level of acceptance. As much as I find it way easier to use the past tense, I would think of the anime's style of presentation when I work on this, so that kind of helps me visualise. Of course, there's a limit to what a translator can do, since we aren't professional writers anyway (If there's anyone out there who is, my apologies). Of course, my style would be different here, since I basically spam in present perfect and past perfect if present or present continuous don't work, which I don't think any translator would follow.

[Kadi]

Some input from Utsuro no Hako, since we do present tense. At least we did in Vol 4, and the feedback was very positive. People liked it better than Vol 3 in past tense. However, you need to keep in mind that Hakomari is usually very linear (in it's own way) and straightforward, concentrated on the moment with distinct moments of reminiscence. Therefore we decided to have me edit all volumes to present tense, and that's what I'm currently doing, in theory at least. Now, this doesn't mean you should/have to use present tense as well. Just take into account that it can work/get positive feedback.

Ohh, that reminds me. When I say we use present tense, it also implies I use past tense where it's due, as in flashbacks or in inner monologues about the past ("moments of reminiscence"^^). In order to avoid odd feelings as much as possible. Since this is the most present tense you can reasonably get, I actually wonder what you mean with "mixed"? Chapter a in present tense, chapter b past tense? COME ON, you can't do that, that's just confusing if you pay a little attention. If I got you wrong about this, sorry.

If you're interested in an example of how we do present tense, the links in the following spoiler might give you an idea. Beware, however, that the spoilers about Hakomari Vol 1 are major, if you haven't read it yet. And when I said major, I meant it. It might actually be best to just read Hakomari that far, if you haven't yet. It's worth it, and it's all been edited to present tense once, so except for some misses you can get a feeling for it (although Hakomari is peculiar, as I said).

Spoiler! :

Major spoilers about Hakomari, Vol 1:
"moment of reminiscence" in the middle in past tense, rest present: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... 1_0th_time
Present tense, past only where it's due: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... me_%282%29

P.S.: That's also the extent of editing I did for Vol 1, so don't refer to later chapters these for reference regarding tenses, or how to edit in general, since they aren't edited yet. And I'm far from perfect as an editor, so as I said, earlier chapters may have minor misses as well. And once again, Hakomari is odd. You have been warned .

P.P.S.: We still appreciate feedback on tenses over at the Hakomari-thread, so if you think the way we did it is horrible, please tell us clearly. (I should stop advertising now)

[Darklor]

Oh, I meant with mixed as the tenses were in the origin