Sword Art Online - Names and Terminology

[BeginnerXP]

I don't know if this belongs to this thread or not, but today I saw one member edited SAO volume 1 by dropping all honorifics. To my understanding, honorific is translator's preference and should be left untouched unless it's by the agreement from the project admins/supervisors.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I also want to hear opinions from users here as well, thank you.

[Mystes]

I think we'll have to wait for the anime to really know that since they might actually be spelling it out

Well, there is many possibilities.
1. Like Lare said
2. Essu-Ee-Ou
3. Saouh

What's the problem with dropping honorifics, BTW?

[PeKan]

How about that it gives more insight to a character when they're not removed?

It's like calling someone fifty years your elder "John" instead of "Mr. Doe." So, a lot of a character's personality can be hidden in honorifics..
And it also shows what kind of relationship is between characters.. 'cuz if you're saying -san, then you're probably not very friendly.. they're little things, but -enough- is lost from translation.. why must more be taken away?

I could cry if they were removed.
..But in such an event, XP is a lifesafer.

[larethian]

I think we'll have to wait for the anime to really know that since they might actually be spelling it out

Well, there is many possibilities.
1. Like Lare said
2. Essu-Ee-Ou
3. Saouh

What's the problem with dropping honorifics, BTW?

It depends on a lot of factors whether to use honorifics or not. These days, since most people who are into anime should be familiar with them, I think it's good to use them. They measure intimate/emotional/respect distance between people and also like above post mentioned, presents style to identify speaker more easily. However, it's really dependent on the translator's preference and the story as well. For most cases, I'd prefer to use them. 10 years ago, maybe I would not use them since people aren't familiar with them. Of course, I won't go so far as to use teme, omae, kisama, etc.

[Xplorer30]

Of course, I won't go so far as to use teme, omae, kisama, etc.

I am bumping into a lot of those in AW, do you have any suggestions other than "You Itsuki"?

Edit: hmm, the bas#### word got censored. I guess it is still ok to use it in wiki?

[Ushwood]

I am strongly against dropping honorifics if characters are Japanese. They reflect nuances of characters' personalities and relationships. For example, there is a huge difference between how Kirito calls Asuna by name and how Asuna calls Kirito "Kirito-kun".

[BeginnerXP]

What's the problem with dropping honorifics, BTW?

First, thank you very much to everyone posting comments.

Dropping honorifics is absolutely fine and acceptable if it was done by the translator or the editor who had approval from the translator, and I think most readers would respect their choice too.
But this was not the case, so I made a comment here asking for opinions.

[Naeko]

As an insight to the "old days" of fansubbing in the 1980's, there were a lot of "purist" fans who insisted that as many japanese terms as possible be retained to give the video that "japanese flavor". Hence, a lot of fansubs (not mine though) were burdened down with "-san", "-onna", "-dono", etcetera. Of course, fansubs also have to deal with the issue of limited onscreen space and time unlike ebooks. I generally prefer that honorifics not be used in translated works. Fans have been able to progress beyond both the "japanphile fervor" and "transliteration accuracy" attitudes of the early days of fan translations back in the 1980's. We've also progressed enough to avoid using "o-cha" or calling the store owner (manager) as Master.

Otherwise, if we were to keep honorifics, I could go PERL through the SAO story and add honorifics such as:

Lyfa-chan and Yui-chan looked at each other, and they could not help laughing.
“Pfft…Huh…Hahahah…!”
"I'm sorry papa-san, so funny ~~~"
As they hovered side by side in the air, they held their stomach laughing. When they were about to stop, they heard Kirito-kun’s screams, and broke into new gales of laughter.
Lyfa-chan couldn’t remember the last time she had laughed so hard. This must be the first time since she came to this world.
After laughing for long enough, Lyfa-chan darted in and grabbed Kirito-kun by the collar so that he stopped flying and finished teaching him the tricks to Voluntary Flight. For a beginner, Kirito-kun was a quick learner. After 10 minutes or so of lecture, Kirito-kun could fly freely.
"Oh … this is … amazing!"
Kirito-kun shouted as he flew in circles and loops.
"Yes, that’s right!"
Lyfa-chan answered with a smile.

[Ushwood]

Otherwise, if we were to keep honorifics, I could go PERL through the SAO story and add honorifics such as:

Lyfa-chan and Yui-chan looked at each other, and they could not help laughing.
“Pfft…Huh…Hahahah…!”
"I'm sorry papa-san, so funny ~~~"
As they hovered side by side in the air, they held their stomach laughing. When they were about to stop, they heard Kirito-kun’s screams, and broke into new gales of laughter.
Lyfa-chan couldn’t remember the last time she had laughed so hard. This must be the first time since she came to this world.
After laughing for long enough, Lyfa-chan darted in and grabbed Kirito-kun by the collar so that he stopped flying and finished teaching him the tricks to Voluntary Flight. For a beginner, Kirito-kun was a quick learner. After 10 minutes or so of lecture, Kirito-kun could fly freely.
"Oh … this is … amazing!"
Kirito-kun shouted as he flew in circles and loops.
"Yes, that’s right!"
Lyfa-chan answered with a smile.

Wrong.
Not a single honorific in that part of the original text.
Or you don't see a difference between "keep honorifics where they were" and "add honorifics where they weren't"?

[larethian]

As an insight to the "old days" of fansubbing in the 1980's, there were a lot of "purist" fans who insisted that as many japanese terms as possible be retained to give the video that "japanese flavor". Hence, a lot of fansubs (not mine though) were burdened down with "-san", "-onna", "-dono", etcetera. Of course, fansubs also have to deal with the issue of limited onscreen space and time unlike ebooks. I generally prefer that honorifics not be used in translated works. Fans have been able to progress beyond both the "japanphile fervor" and "transliteration accuracy" attitudes of the early days of fan translations back in the 1980's. We've also progressed enough to avoid using "o-cha" or calling the store owner (manager) as Master.

Otherwise, if we were to keep honorifics, I could go PERL through the SAO story and add honorifics such as:

Lyfa-chan and Yui-chan looked at each other, and they could not help laughing.
“Pfft…Huh…Hahahah…!”
"I'm sorry papa-san, so funny ~~~"
As they hovered side by side in the air, they held their stomach laughing. When they were about to stop, they heard Kirito-kun’s screams, and broke into new gales of laughter.
Lyfa-chan couldn’t remember the last time she had laughed so hard. This must be the first time since she came to this world.
After laughing for long enough, Lyfa-chan darted in and grabbed Kirito-kun by the collar so that he stopped flying and finished teaching him the tricks to Voluntary Flight. For a beginner, Kirito-kun was a quick learner. After 10 minutes or so of lecture, Kirito-kun could fly freely.
"Oh … this is … amazing!"
Kirito-kun shouted as he flew in circles and loops.
"Yes, that’s right!"
Lyfa-chan answered with a smile.

1. Thanks to those fansubs, many people now have a good awareness of honorifics. I meant no offense but like you said, those were the old days.
2. Anime fansubs are different from manga subs which are again different from light novel translations. As an insight to our experience, a method applied in one media does not mean it works well in another. In both anime and manga, one can easily tell who is speaking from the images alone. This can be difficult in light novels where speech nuances and addresses make the difference (which can be supplemented by translation notes or links the first time they appear). It is just as cumbersome to add "xxxx says" to every dialogue line, resulting in the reduction of the literary flow of the text and thus quite possibly reducing enjoyment of the read, imho.
3. Today, there are probably as many fans who would demand honorifics to be retained as people who would be 'burdened' by them, the later being new entrants to the otaku world. Note that this discussion has been effectively started" and highlighted by non-translators, and not us, the translators. Who would you want to satisfy?
4. The last and most important point is: what kind of audience, what kind of story is it, and at the end of the day, what are the translators trying to achieve? Is retaining the cultural aspect one of the goals of the translators? Is immersing in the cultural aspect of Japanese one of the goals of the readers? Honorific usage is part of the cultural aspect of Japanese and Koreans (unlike in the Western world, which lacks equivalent addresses for most honorifics). Honorifics tell us a lot of things and give clues to the relationships between characters. Courtesy level, upbringing, respect level towards listener, "distance" between people are a few of the things. It also adds flavor to a character (for example, when someone uses "dono", is it because he thinks himself as a samurai in modern times, or something else?) So the question is, is the purpose of the translation just for the sake of making the plot understandable to the reader, or do the translators also want to bring in the quirks, flavor and the cultural aspect the writers had intended. It thus boils down to objective.

While I agree burdening the readers with too much nihonglish can be a bad thing, with respect to honorifics, this has become less and less so. In fact, even outside of honorifics, there are fans who take in delight in knowing a word or two from non-localized translations, making them more 'Japanese-culturally savvy' than their peers (eg. kotatsu, or chabudai, as opposed to their lossy localizations, whatever they might be). Ultimately, there's no right or wrong and it's up to the translator's preference and discretion.

[Vaelis]

I'm also strongly against removing the honorifics.
(And I put them back 5 days ago in volume 1)

[milki]

Does the project admin's preference override the individual transaltors' preferences?

[Teh_ping]

Does the project admin's preference override the individual transaltors' preferences?

Yes.

[Mystes]

Personally, I don't think it changes much if you just add the right punctuation marks and add the "Mister" when it's needed.

[larethian]

Personally, I don't think it changes much if you just add the right punctuation marks and add the "Mister" when it's needed.

Really? So far, you've also translated with honorifics as well. No offense, really, truly, I don't mean any offense, but why not try translating something and do that (substituting with "Mister"), then tell me about it again? Even the Chinese translations try to use honorific equivalents, as far as I can remember, since it is in the capacity of the language, even though it still lacks a number of them. English addresses, however are just too limited.

And you are thinking of only "san". What about sensei, senpai, sama, chan, kun, dono, etc. etc. and what about custom speeches characteristic to the character, like -chi, -tan, -chama, etc. etc. for identification purpose?

And like I said, it depends on your objective. If you are one who doesn't care about 'translating' the cultural aspects, of course, it doesn't make a difference.