Edits by the Masses [Mult. Chaps.]

Discuss topics concerning this volume

Moderators: Fringe Security Bureau, Senior Editors, Senior Translators, Alt. Language Translator/Editor, Executive Council, Project Translators, Project Editors

User avatar
Omio
Astral Realm

Edits by the Masses [Mult. Chaps.]

Post by Omio »

Prologue:

Caution tags:
At least this bogus SOS Brigade could disband, since it was formed for the sole purpose of finding aliens et al for Haruhi.
2 points for this one:

a) Only 2 other things besides 'Aliens'. Et al is not an easy thing to comprehend in this because Et al usually is 3 or 4 extra to listed. Et cetera could work... But again, this is for those who are picky about it. (In other words, if you don't change it, it's slang.)

b) Stupid Naruto illiterates. -_-' ...HAKODEN!!!!

But again, It's just a caution tag - nothing serious.

WARNING tags:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball; then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight daysthree hours and five minutes."
Comma needed, I think.
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball; then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
If you mean a comma instead of the semicolon, you would be correct; though, the sentence still seems rather awkward.

Let me see what I can do.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball; then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
I think I'm going with

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."

It's possible I changed the correct meaning, but it actually makes sense now. If someone with the original raws has a different change, feel free.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
Omio
Astral Realm

Post by Omio »

Beware the talking cat wrote:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball; then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
I think I'm going with

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."

It's possible I changed the correct meaning, but it actually makes sense now. If someone with the original raws has a different change, feel free.
Well, that works too, and I was thinking that in between "days" and "three" should be another comma - reading this:

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days, three hours and five minutes."

You will notice my add-in at this point here (space edit) ^
User avatar
quigonkenny
Temporal Time Variant Entity
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:03 pm
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: YES._

Post by quigonkenny »

Beware the talking cat wrote:I think I'm going with

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
I thought the semicolon was correct, as it can be in any case where you have two phrases with complete sentence structure that you can join into one sentence without making it too long; of course, "comma + conjunction" would work in its place. Problem is, "but" is the wrong conjunction here. It implies that the first half and the second half contradict each other, which here they don't. I think it's probably best to leave that part as it is, or break it into two separate sentences.
Omio wrote:Well, that works too, and I was thinking that in between "days" and "three" should be another comma - reading this:

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days, three hours and five minutes."
Most common mistake in punctuation is the "a, b and c" mistake. It should always be "a, b, and c." In this case, "fifty-eight days, three hours, and five minutes" is correct...but given Kyon's penchant for sarcastic imitation and Yuki's monotony, I think it actually works better without the commas, since that's how Yuki would say it.

Only real grammar problem I see is with the first part of the sentence, where you (technically) have three non-parallel phrases ("in a...", "wearing a...", and "carrying a..."). It sounds good, though (possibly aided by the flouting of the "a, b, and c" rule), especially considering how the narrative is intended to sound like Kyon's natural speech, and simply changing the prepositional phrase to a gerund clause like the latter two would be repetitive.

If we have to change something, we could probably add the commas into the quotation part of the sentence as noted above, or combine the first two phrases in the first part of the sentence:
I can imagine Nagato wearing a black pointed cap and black cape and carrying a crystal ball...
But given the loose, informal grammar used throughout the rest of the volumes, I think it's fine as-is.

I did correct the "besides" line in Volume 1 Chapter 3, though, Omio. Good catch. I'm pretty sure Oni was joking with the "[A]merican yankee spelling" crack, but I'm absolutely certain that that particular use of "besides" is incorrect in any version of proper English.
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

quigonkenny wrote:
Beware the talking cat wrote:I think I'm going with

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
I thought the semicolon was correct, as it can be in any case where you have two phrases with complete sentence structure that you can join into one sentence without making it too long; of course, "comma + conjunction" would work in its place. Problem is, "but" is the wrong conjunction here. It implies that the first half and the second half contradict each other, which here they don't. I think it's probably best to leave that part as it is, or break it into two separate sentences.
The semicolon is incorrect there because the second clause is a dependent clause; the "then" keeps it from being a complete sentence.

"Then I imagine" doesn't sound horrible, but it isn't a complete sentence.
Most common mistake in punctuation is the "a, b and c" mistake. It should always be "a, b, and c." In this case, "fifty-eight days, three hours, and five minutes" is correct...but given Kyon's penchant for sarcastic imitation and Yuki's monotony, I think it actually works better without the commas, since that's how Yuki would say it.
Actually, the a, b, and c is called the Oxford comma. Neither having nor not having it is incorrect. Some people, like myself, prefer it, but either way is correct.
quigonkenny wrote: Only real grammar problem I see is with the first part of the sentence, where you (technically) have three non-parallel phrases ("in a...", "wearing a...", and "carrying a..."). It sounds good, though (possibly aided by the flouting of the "a, b, and c" rule), especially considering how the narrative is intended to sound like Kyon's natural speech, and simply changing the prepositional phrase to a gerund clause like the latter two would be repetitive.
As before, this is correct as a list, but as it is written, rather than being a list, it can also be seen as a participial(I think this is the right term, might be something else) phrase.


I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed hat.
Nagato, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, went to the supermarket.
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed hat, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
quigonkenny
Temporal Time Variant Entity
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:03 pm
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: YES._

Post by quigonkenny »

Beware the talking cat wrote:The semicolon is incorrect there because the second clause is a dependent clause; the "then" keeps it from being a complete sentence.

"Then I imagine" doesn't sound horrible, but it isn't a complete sentence.
I'll give you the Oxford comma. Doing a little research, it looks like this might be one of those American English vs. Commonwealth English arguments, so I'll side with whichever one causes the least ambiguity...which is neither, so I'll just abstain. (Probably a good idea for my Texan butt considering how the font color drop-down in this forum spells it "colour.")

I'll even admit to a little nit-picking on the phrase/clauses in the first half of the quote, as it makes perfect sense as written, and can easily be explained away as an adverbial prepositional phrase and two objective gerund clauses.

But I'm going to have to ask you where you got the idea that "then" by itself intrinsically makes an independent clause dependent.

The only case where I see "then" causing a clause to be dependent is if you have the old "If X, then Y" structure (which admittedly does not require the "if"), showing causal or--more often--conditional effect. But even in that case, although neither clause would be correct as a complete sentence, it's the "if" clause that is actually the dependent one (it's an adverbial clause describing the "then" clause's verb).
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball; then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
In the case of the quote from the novel, the "then" is used to show a sequence of time (X happens; then Y happens), and is an adverb describing the verb "imagine" and showing when it happens. The sentence could be split into two and still be correct (if a bit awkward-sounding)without changing meaning, which is a reliable litmus test for whether a semicolon (or comma + conjunction) can be used.

It's a borderline case, I'll give you that (if only because sentences that begin with "then" sound a bit odd, even if correct), but it is technically correct. Of course, if you remember, my complaint was against the use of ", but" instead of the semicolon, and I already gave my reason for that in the previous post. If you were to put ", and" there instead of the semicolon, I couldn't really argue with that, since "and" has no connotations in this case, unlike the other coordinating conjunctions that could fit ("but," "or," or "yet"). Still think it flows better as-is.
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

Cambridge dictionary online wrote: then (NEXT) Show phonetics
adverb
next or after that:
Let me finish this job, then we'll go.
Give her the letter to read, then she'll understand.
This is from the Cambridge dictionary online.
[Independent clause], [then] [independent clause.]

Having then (in the context we're using it here)before an independent clause makes it a dependent clause.



From the OWL at Purdue University:
When you want to use commas and semicolons in sentences and when you are concerned about whether a sentence is or is not a fragment, a good way to start is to be able to recognize dependent and independent clauses. The definitions offered here will help you with this.
Dependent Clause

A dependent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb but does not express a complete thought. A dependent clause cannot be a sentence. Often a dependent clause is marked by a dependent marker word.
When Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz . . . (What happened when he studied? The thought is incomplete.)

Dependent Marker Word

A dependent marker word is a word added to the beginning of an independent clause that makes it into a dependent clause.
When Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz, it was very noisy.

Some common dependent markers are: after, although, as, as if, because, before, even if, even though, if, in order to, since, though, unless, until, whatever, when, whenever, whether, and while.
From another part of the OWL at Purdue University:
Pattern Five: Complex Sentence

This pattern is an example of a complex sentence with a dependent marker.

Dependent marker dependent clause[ , ] Independent clause[ . ]

Examples of dependent markers are as follows: because, before, since, while, although, if, until, when, then, after, as, as if.
Example: Because doctors are concerned about the rising death rate from asthma, they have called for more research into its causes.
Pattern Six: Complex Sentence

This pattern is an example of a complex sentence with a dependent marker.

Independent clause dependent marker dependent clause [ . ]

Examples of dependent markers are as follows: because, before, since, while, although, if, until, when, then, after, as, as if.
Example: Doctors are concerned about the rising death rate from asthma because it is a common, treatable illness.
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/604/01/
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/


The only time then can be used at the beginning of an independent clause is if it being used as "at that time".

I was working in the city then. Then I was working in the city.
I was working in the city at that time. At that time I was working in the city.





This is one of those "I need to check with someone with the original copies of the novel" moments.
If "then" is being used as in "I walked to the supermarket, then I walked home", then the sentence has some problems. It doesn't really make sense because "I can" is just a statement of condition. It's like saying "My car is not broken, then I can drive". There isn't a first part of time for the then to come after.

If "then" is being used as in "at that time", it still doesn't make much sense; "I can" still doesn't have a time element to it.
For the change I made, it was under the assumption of an "if I do, at that time" sort of sentence.

I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, but(, if I do,) then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."

Really, it is most clear as something along the lines of:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but if I do, I can't help seeing a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
This is a more clear version than the last one I suggested. It completely cuts out the ambiguity from the "then," and it also cuts the second imagine; it was a bit repetitive before.


Another option is what I suggested earlier:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, but(, if I do,) then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
The then is an "at that time" then. It could be technically correct with the semicolon, but the but makes it more clear to the meaning.


The last option is the "I did x, then I did y" type sentence.
I imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, then I imagine a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
Very dry and barely makes sense.


You were complaining about my use of ,but. It isn't saying the two parts of the sentence contradict each other; rather, it is saying "If I imagine x, I have no choice but to imagine y."

It really works fine either of the two ways I suggested here; the third option is really not good at all, and it surely is not what was intended.


I'm going to leave it how I first changed it. If it is still too ambiguous, it can be changed to the "I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but if I do, I can't help seeing a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."" option.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
quigonkenny
Temporal Time Variant Entity
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:03 pm
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: YES._

Post by quigonkenny »

Beware the talking cat wrote:Really, it is most clear as something along the lines of:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, wearing a black cape and carrying a crystal ball, but if I do, I can't help seeing a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
This is a more clear version than the last one I suggested. It completely cuts out the ambiguity from the "then," and it also cuts the second imagine; it was a bit repetitive before.


Another option is what I suggested earlier:
I can imagine Nagato in a black pointed cap, but(, if I do,) then I see a scene where she tells a couple, "You two will break up in fifty-eight days three hours and five minutes."
The then is an "at that time" then. It could be technically correct with the semicolon, but the but makes it more clear to the meaning.
Aha! That's where our problem lies. I was reading the sentence as "X happens; then Y happens." (Note the semicolon instead of the comma.) I didn't read the sentence at all as a causal relationship, but I see now that it certainly could be read that way.

I think very visually, so when I read that quote, I saw Kyon's mind's eye visually represented. In my mind, I see Yuki, and then the cap, cape, and crystal ball literally pop into existence as Kyon narrates them into being. And then, the couple and related scene pop/fade/shift in in much the same way. I never thought of it the way you did, where if he imagines the first part, the second comes unbidden to mind, but that's a valid possibility, too. I guess when you get down to it, there's no real difference in the meaning behind the two readings, just in the level of Kyon's control over his imagination. Or rather, in the focus on the level of Kyon's control over his imagination. Ah, nuance...

This is definitely one of those where we need to get someone with access to and ability to translate the original text and get them to give us an unvarnished translation of the line so we'll know which it is.
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

Actually, you got what I said backwards.
For an "I did X, then I did Y." sentence, it must be a comma.

If it is an "At that time", it is a semicolon.
I was working in the city then. Then I was working in the city.
I was working in the city at that time. At that time I was working in the city.

Either way though, it would be better if someone with the original novel could double-check.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
quigonkenny
Temporal Time Variant Entity
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:03 pm
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: YES._

Post by quigonkenny »

Beware the talking cat wrote:Actually, you got what I said backwards.
For an "I did X, then I did Y." sentence, it must be a comma.
Au contraire, mon frere...

That's only the case if one of the clauses is dependent or there is a coordinating conjunction connecting them. If there were an "if" in the first half (or if "then" were a coordinating conjunction), then the comma would be correct. (case in point)
User avatar
Beware the talking cat
Dot Mage
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:02 am
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: Don't give personal information online.
Contact:

Post by Beware the talking cat »

As I said before, if "then" is being used, except as "at that time", it makes the clause dependent.

then (NEXT) Show phonetics
adverb
next or after that:
Let me finish this job, then we'll go.
Give her the letter to read, then she'll understand.
then (RESULT) Show phonetics
adverb
as a result; in that case; also used as a way of joining a statement to an earlier piece of conversation:
Have a rest now, then you won't be so tired this evening.
You'll be selling your house, then?

This is from the Cambridge dictionary online.
[Independent clause], [then] [independent clause.]

Having then (in the context we're using it here)before an independent clause makes it a dependent clause.



From the OWL at Purdue University:
When you want to use commas and semicolons in sentences and when you are concerned about whether a sentence is or is not a fragment, a good way to start is to be able to recognize dependent and independent clauses. The definitions offered here will help you with this.



Dependent Clause

A dependent clause is a group of words that contains a subject and verb but does not express a complete thought. A dependent clause cannot be a sentence. Often a dependent clause is marked by a dependent marker word.
When Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz . . . (What happened when he studied? The thought is incomplete.)

Dependent Marker Word

A dependent marker word is a word added to the beginning of an independent clause that makes it into a dependent clause.
When Jim studied in the Sweet Shop for his chemistry quiz, it was very noisy.

Some common dependent markers are: after, although, as, as if, because, before, even if, even though, if, in order to, since, though, unless, until, whatever, when, whenever, whether, and while.

From another part of the OWL at Purdue University:
Pattern Five: Complex Sentence

This pattern is an example of a complex sentence with a dependent marker.

Dependent marker dependent clause[ , ] Independent clause[ . ]

Examples of dependent markers are as follows: because, before, since, while, although, if, until, when, then, after, as, as if.
Example: Because doctors are concerned about the rising death rate from asthma, they have called for more research into its causes.
Pattern Six: Complex Sentence

This pattern is an example of a complex sentence with a dependent marker.

Independent clause dependent marker dependent clause [ . ]

Examples of dependent markers are as follows: because, before, since, while, although, if, until, when, then, after, as, as if.
Example: Doctors are concerned about the rising death rate from asthma because it is a common, treatable illness.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/604/01/
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/


The only time then can be used at the beginning of an independent clause is if it being used as "at that time".

I was working in the city then. Then I was working in the city.
I was working in the city at that time. At that time I was working in the city.


Reading the other person's arguments is tech.
Administrator
Archnemesis of the name changing guy.
Image
Image
User avatar
Omio
Astral Realm

Post by Omio »

@_@

...I'm lost. What the fsck just happened?


Ignoring that for a sec...

Chapter 2: Warning tag
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best way is to just pretend nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene. Or to just give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
Where'd 'Either' go?
(Improper fragment)

Here's the 2 edits I was thinking:
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best ways are to either pretend nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene, or to just give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
and
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best way is to just pretend that nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene. That, or to give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
I like the second more, personally.
User avatar
quigonkenny
Temporal Time Variant Entity
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:03 pm
Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
Location: YES._

Post by quigonkenny »

Omio wrote:Here's the 2 edits I was thinking:
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best ways are to either pretend nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene, or to just give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
and
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best way is to just pretend that nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene. That, or to give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
I like the second more, personally.
Well, the second does flow better, and is more in-line with the intent of the original translation (that the first "way" is "the best"), but they both have problems. The first option can be fixed by just switching the "to either" for "either to" to fix the split infinitive. (the "to" before "just give up" can be removed, which I'd do) That doesn't fix the change in meaning, though.

The second option gives us a few more options. The most obvious fix is to remove the "to" before "give up" (and I'd bring back the "just" for flavor) and make the second sentence a complete thought. I'm a big fan of the em dash in situations like this, so this is what I suggest:
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best way is to pretend that nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene—or just give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
This keeps the meaning of the original, fixes the grammatical problems, and adds an appropriate pause before the punch line.
User avatar
Omio
Astral Realm

Post by Omio »

quigonkenny wrote:
Omio wrote:[chop]
[snip]
The second option gives us a few more options. The most obvious fix is to remove the "to" before "give up" (and I'd bring back the "just" for flavor) and make the second sentence a complete thought. I'm a big fan of the em dash in situations like this, so this is what I suggest:
In order to deal with her inconsiderate attitude, the best way is to pretend that nothing ever happened and quietly leave the crime scene—or just give up on struggling and obey whatever she says.
This keeps the meaning of the original, fixes the grammatical problems, and adds an appropriate pause before the punch line.
Now it's time to patch that up into the volume.
*Waits for Period 3*
Locked

Return to “Volume 2 - The Sighs of Suzumiya Haruhi / 第二巻: 涼宮ハルヒの溜息”