Page 1 of 33

Campione! - Names, Terminology and Stylistic Issues

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:59 pm
by Darklor
Just post and collect and if necessary discuss here the naming rules for Campione!

Quick link to Terminology Page.

Currently under discussion are:
Under discussion wrote:Mariya Hikari - 斬竜刀 Zanryuutou? "dragon-beheading sword"?

Ena - 王様 (Ou-sama): "my king"? Ou-sama? Other? (Ou=king, -sama=well-known honorific)

Ena - じいちゃま (jiichama): "Grampsy"? Jii-chama? Other?

Other - バンディエラ (BaNDiERa): Bandiera? Flag? Cape?

Other - (大)地母神 ? (Kanji: (big-)earth-mother-god. Translation should incorporate earth, mother and a gender-distinction)
Other - 地母 ? (Kanji: earth-mother)

Other - 権能 (kennou): Authority/Power/Function

Set unless wrong:
Names - Copper Black Cross - ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Genaro Gantz (unless not Italian)
Names - Bronze Black Cross - リリアナ・クラニチャール Liliana Kraniczar (only if Croatian or similar: Liliana Kranjčar; or other)
Names - Bronze Black Cross - ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito (unless not Italian)
Names - Other Campione - サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni (unless not Italian)
Names - Other Campione - デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dejanstahl Voban (unless not proper "Eastern European")

Magic - all (for now: discussion if regulation wanted)
(List of terms: see below or on the wiki)


Feel free to share your opinion or suggest other terms for discussion, for example if you find a mistake or have a better translation.
When you are a translator and coin new terms, please drop a note here along with releasing the update on the wiki so the other translators are informed.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:19 pm
by Kadi
a) Updated the list, it was quite out of date.
b) Should I also include the names of Japanese locations? I haven't done it for streets and districts yet...
c) These are Kira's suggestions which I haven't dealt with yet:

Kira0802 wrote:ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Jennarlo Gants (??? Italian, probably)
---I'd go with Genaro Gantz
《青銅黒十字》 Bronze-Black Cross
---I'll think about that one. A way to make it sound more fluid.
ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito (?? Italian)
---No doubt it's that.
サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni
---Salvatore Toni is what I'd translate.
------(Kadi) The kana explicitly say Do, so I'm hesitant
デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dernstal Voban (????)
---Dejanstahl Voban, or whatever...


d) Translators: Will you use this list? Do you agree with it? If you disagree, how can we come to an agreement? Do you want to have more guidelines? Less? Honestly speaking, I don't want to spend this much time if nobody uses it in the end, so I'm up for suggestions.
e) Feel free to add the Chinese versions of the names as well
f) as in... FFFFFFeedback! There are some cases where I left multiple possibilities. I'd say those are to be decided as soon as possible. Opinions+reasons, please!

g...) Would someone mind moving me the list to this, second post? Although it could be fun to see how big the number of edits will grow, it makes me feel uncomfortable... and I don't even want to imagine the mod logs

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:18 am
by Darklor
d1) I dont know, but I think it could be useful for possible new translators, when they can identify which signs are names and how to translate them.
d2) I would assume with a lifely discussion here... ;)

g1) I could do it, but so could you, since you could edit the first post, but if you can edit the first post why would you like to move the list into the second post?
g2) Dont fear the logs. ;) - The CSR Guidline was edited 28 times before the list and the edits where entirely moved into the wiki.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:28 pm
by Mystes
Anyways, we'll update the list no matter how, so...

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:40 pm
by Kadi
True, but since I update it almost every time I find find something new and I'm currently reading through the new novels, I will update it way more often than others. Well, now that we have a wiki page, I can add the unquestionable ones directly there and leave this for ones that need discussion... okay, let's do that.

*starts on moving the unquestionable ones to the wiki*

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:10 pm
by Mystes
Kira0802 wrote:ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Jennarlo Gants (??? Italian, probably)
---I'd go with Genaro Gantz
《青銅黒十字》 Bronze-Black Cross
---I'll think about that one. A way to make it sound more fluid.
ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito (?? Italian)
---No doubt it's that.
サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni
---Salvatore Toni is what I'd translate.
------(Kadi) The kana explicitly say Do, so I'm hesitant
デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dernstal Voban (????)
---Dejanstahl Voban, or whatever...


Here's my explanations for the guesses, or my reasoning, in case people are wondering.:
---I don't know any Italian whose name starts with a j the 'dge' sound. For example, Genoa has it, while Juventus is pronounce 'Iuventus'. Since Italian is a Latin language (which I've been studying for 4 years. though I never got above 95% in my report card), the 'j' didn't exist as the English 'j'.
---If CBC is Copper Black Cross, then we have no choice to but this into BBC, as Bronze Black Cross. Though both sound like TV broadcasting names...
---Diana Milito would be fine, if it's an Italian name.
---Salavatore Toni would be my guess, cauz...he's Italian, right?
---Dejanstahl Voban, デヤンスタール・ヴォバン sounds like Deyansutāru vuoban (source: Google Translate), so by chanjing the y into a j, the aru into ahl, and eliminating the u in "vuoban", it makes it.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:37 pm
by Kadi
Updating all done. I implemented some more of Kira's ideas. Shortened the list in the first post to an "under discussion" list. The other terms are pretty much safe/set, although not necessarily enforced. Note that the list isn't exhaustive, even regarding the already translated parts. Meaning there might be terms that don't show up on the terminology page yet. Also, sometimes only the English term shows up.

The annotated "under discussion" list (=why I put each of the words up for discussion)
Under discussion wrote:Names - Kusanagi Godou - 『戦士』 the [Hero]: I think it's more like [Warrior], the dictionary also says "combatant" or "soldier"

Names - 《正史編纂委員会》 History Fabrication Committee: Currently canonically in use like this, but... it sounds so negative. As if they admit they lie. "Official History Compilation Committee" is so much more unassuming...
Names - Seishuuin Ena - 天叢雲(劍) Ama no Murakumo (no Tsurugi) (?): Just confirming that we translate it "as is". I think everyone will agree that "Heavenly-cloud-gathering sword" sounds... suboptimal.

Names - Erica Blandelli - [紅き悪魔] [Diavolo Rosso]?[Diavola Rossa]?: Which is it? First seems to be male, second female... if both are correct, I vote for the 2nd...
Names - Copper Black Cross - 《老貴婦人》 [Old Lady]?[Old Dame]?: Dame sounds more noble so I vote for it, but I don't mind either way. Currently both are in use.
Names - Copper Black Cross - ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Genaro Gantz: Went with Kira's suggestion for now, but I'll keep it here until we find someone who knows enough about Italian names...

Names - Bronze Black Cross - ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito: Same for her as for Genaro Gantz. If Milito is a proper name and the 2nd i not short, it's a done deal.
Names - Bronze Black Cross - リリアナ・クラニチャール Liliana Kraniczar: Last name proper "Eastern European"? If so, I'd say it's in, until someone finds a better solution.

Names - Other Campione - サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni: Still not liking Toni because the Kana say Do. Anyone Italian around? If not, outvote me :)
Names - Other Campione - 『剣の王』 King of Swords? Sword King?: Up to you. Keep in mind Vol 5 has a similar name, "剣の巫女", Sword Miko/Miko of Swords. Vol 10 is "槍の戦神" "Battle God" of Spears/Spear Battle God.

Names - Other Campione - デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dejanstahl Voban: Eastern European. Here until someone with a clue comes around. Went with Kira's suggestion for now, it's as good as any (and better than my old one)
Names - Other Campione - 死せる ~~ (?): Voban's undead servants. Just here so we don't forget it, therefore italicized

Magic - all - Do you want to regulate this? I think it'd be nice:
『教授』 [Instruction]
『跳躍』 [Leap] (vastly improved jumping and falling, maybe also running)
『飛翔』 [Flight] (Liliana's forte. Seems to fall a bit short of true flight, but not much. And "Soaring" sounds odd.)
『変形』 [Transformation] (Erica's forte, changing shape and attributes of iron/steel or animating it; NOT changing one's own shape)
『使役』 [Employment]/[Enslavement]? (used to turn animals into familiars)
『~~』 [Mille Lingua]
『霊視』 (reishi) Spiritual Vision (May have a different translation in use; Contains Kanji for soul/spirit/ghost and visual/vision)
霊視術 (reishijutsu) ?? (techniques using Spiritual Vision)
霊視術師 (reishijutsushi) ?? (someone using techniques using Spiritual Vision)
霊視力 (reishiryoku) ?? (power of Spiritual Vision)
霊感 (reikan) ?? (Inspiration or Supernatural senses. Heightened instincts?)
霊脈 (reimyaku) Spiritual Pulse (Energy running through the earth thingie)
『魔女術』 (majojutsu) [Witch Arts] (Can also mean "Witch Techniques" or "Witch Spells", but I like Arts...)

Other - 権能 (kennou): Authority/Power/Function: What a Campione gains by killing a god. Do you want/need this regulated?
Other - 大騎士 Great Knight: Can we find something that sounds better? I think Great Knight sounds a bit mehh, that's all...


Non-standard honorifics: Do you want this?
#~卿 #~kyou; Sir~# (used mainly for Campione, but also for normal humans (Rivera))
#-嬢 #~jou; Miss-# (used for Erica from time to time)


I hope alexoconnel drops by some time. I'd like his input and his OK as well.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:05 pm
by Mystes
Under discussion wrote:Names - Kusanagi Godou - 『戦士』 the [Hero]

Names - 《正史編纂委員会》 History Fabrication Committee
Names - Seishuuin Ena - 天叢雲(劍) Ama no Murakumo (no Tsurugi)

Names - Erica Blandelli - [紅き悪魔] [Diavolo Rosso]?[Diavola Rossa]?
Names - Copper Black Cross - 《老貴婦人》 [Old Lady]?[Old Dame]?
Names - Copper Black Cross - ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Genaro Gantz

Names - Bronze Black Cross - リリアナ・クラニチャール Liliana Kraniczar
Names - Bronze Black Cross - ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito

Names - Other Campione - サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni
Names - Other Campione - 『剣の王』 King of Swords? Sword King?

Names - Other Campione - デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dejanstahl Voban
Names - Other Campione - 死せる ~~ (placeholder)

Magic - all (for now: discussion if regulation wanted)
(List of terms: see below or on the wiki)

Other - 権能 (kennou): Authority/Power/Function
Other - 大騎士 Great Knight


Non-standard honorifics (for now: discussion if regulation wanted and possible)
#~卿 #~kyou; Sir~# (used mainly for Campione, but also for normal humans (Rivera))
#-嬢 #~jou; Miss-# (used for Erica from time to time)


Here is, BTW, the 10 forms decribed in Wikipedia:

As an impetuous wind (14.2-5); as an armed warrior (14.27) and as an adolescent of fifteen (youth); and in the remaining seven forms as animals: a bull with horns of gold (14.7); a white horse with ears and a muzzle of gold (14.9); a camel in heat (14.11-13); a boar (14.15); a bird of prey (veregna, 14.19-21); a ram (14.23); and a wild goat (14.25).


Now:

Names - Kusanagi Godou - 『戦士』 the [Hero] - The Warrior?

Names - 《正史編纂委員会》 History Fabrication Committee - Nothing to say.
Names - Seishuuin Ena - 天叢雲(劍) Ama no Murakumo (no Tsurugi) - Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi is the word, or Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven (wikipedia)

Names - Erica Blandelli - [紅き悪魔] [Diavolo Rosso]?[Diavola Rossa]? - I don't know Italiian, but diavolo is perhaps always masculine.
Names - Copper Black Cross - 《老貴婦人》 [Old Lady]?[Old Dame]? - Old Dame.
Names - Copper Black Cross - ジェンナーロ・ガンツ Genaro Gantz

Names - Bronze Black Cross - リリアナ・クラニチャール Liliana Kraniczar - Liliana Kranjčar (Actually, there are soccer players with that name, including Niko Kranjcar, who plays for damn Tottenham.)
Names - Bronze Black Cross - ディアナ・ミリート Diana Milito

Names - Other Campione - サルバトーレ・ドニ Salvatore Doni
Names - Other Campione - 『剣の王』 King of Swords? Sword King? - King of Sword(s)

Names - Other Campione - デヤンスタール・ヴォバン Dejanstahl Voban
Names - Other Campione - 死せる ~~ (placeholder)

Magic - all (for now: discussion if regulation wanted)
(List of terms: see below or on the wiki)

Other - 権能 (kennou): Authority/Power/Function
Other - 大騎士 Great Knight - No other possibilities.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:12 am
by lchigo93
Gods and related beings
ペガサス Pegasus
ファーヴニル Fafnir
ティアマト Tiamat
マルドゥーク Marduk
パンドラ Pandora
メドゥサ Medusa
アテナ Athena
ウルスラグナ一 Verethragna
ヘラクレス Heracles
ジークフリート Siegfried
ペルセウス Perseus
東方より来たりし者 "(the) one who came from the east"
不敗の太陽 / Furigana: ソル・インヴイクトイス Invincible Sun / Sol Invictis (unsure about the spelling of the Latin)
ゼウス Zeus, ユピテル Jupiter
ヘリオガバルス Heliogabalus (God)
皇帝ヘリオガバルス Elagabalus (Roman Emperor)
アポロ Apollo (Roman), アポロン (Greek)
ネプトゥーヌス Neptune (Roman), ポセイドン Poseidon (Greek)
ウルカヌス Vulcan (Roman), ヘパイストス Hephaestus (Greek)
ソル Sol
ヘリオス Helios
イシス Isis
キュベレー Cybele
ヌアダ Nuadha (Celtic)
アフラ・マズダ Ahura Mazda
インドラ Indra
ミトラ Mitra (the root)
ミスラ Mithra (the Zoroastrian version)
ミトラス Mithras (the Roman version)


um, this is just a suggestion but wouldn't it be better to divide this list into Gods, Heretic Gods and Sacred Beasts for clarity's sake???

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:05 pm
by Kadi
First, Ichigo: Ordering by god/heretic/beast wouldn't help. I think there are only 2 Divine Beasts (adding the term to the canon list like that because that's what alex used and Sacred Beast would be 聖獣, not 神獣) in the whole list. And the line between Gods and Heretic Gods is thin. And then there are people who are none of it and still belong there... Anyway, we could divide the terms by pantheon/culture/region, though. Which I may do some day, but for now it's to help the Chinese translators find out who's who. It's painful enough when doing it from the Jap original (Mitra/Mithra/Mithras, I f...f... f-freaking hate you)


Kira: I love you (for Kranjčar)... is what I wanted to say. Until I played with google TL's pronunciation and found out that apparently, Kraniczar is really proper Polish for what we want to say. Croatia would fit to Voban's home territory, but I don't remember them saying their home countries were close/the same, only that they both had Eastern European roots. So the question I see it is: Is a Polish background or a Croatian background more fitting for our silver-haired fairy? Actually, I tend towards Polish, because in my mind it's more closely related to Russia, which I somehow connect to the silver hair... but I can't decide... and I loved how you can up with Kranjčar... *Kadi is being difficult again*

Kira: I hate you. The way you phrased your comment on Diavolo Rosso/Diavola Rossa did absolutely nothing to help with the discussion. Although you have a point. The dictionary I checked just know only knows Diavolo, not Diavola... Leaving it open for discussion, added a comment to the discussion list, we may decide not to care for grammar.

About Murakumo: Yeah, I know which sword it is, most legendary sword in Japan and all. But I still think it's better to keep it as Ama no Murakumo (no Tsurugi). It's a name, so it's okay, and I'm quite sure translating it will sound unnatural. And there are cases where only Ama no Murakumo is used. Yes, we can decide to ignore that, but... it'd be... you know?

About the 10 forms: Raptor to Bird of Prey might be worth a thought. Added it to the discussion.


Updated the discussion list in general, added what is discussed exactly in each case...

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:22 pm
by Mystes
Kadi wrote: (Mitra/Mithra/Mithras, I f...f... f-freaking hate you)

If I remember well, those three aren't exactly the same.

For Lily's country, I'll search that on baidu.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:26 pm
by lchigo93
Kadi wrote:First, Ichigo: Ordering by god/heretic/beast wouldn't help. I think there are only 2 Divine Beasts (adding the term to the canon list like that because that's what alex used and Sacred Beast would be 聖獣, not 神獣) in the whole list. And the line between Gods and Heretic Gods is thin. And then there are people who are none of it and still belong there... Anyway, we could divide the terms by pantheon/culture/region, though. Which I may do some day, but for now it's to help the Chinese translators find out who's who. It's painful enough when doing it from the Jap original (Mitra/Mithra/Mithras, I f...f... f-freaking hate you.


Spoiler! :
oh, sorry. Cause the chinese site i was reading Campione on used Sacred beast as their translation. Oh well. For the Gods and their origin it's kinda jumbled up. Because the author tried to relate one god from one culture or region to a god from another. Just like how Perseus (who is basically a Greek Hero) got related to Helios and Mithra/Mitra/Mithras. And then Those 3 Mithra based gods are written differently because they are similar yet different gods worshiped by different cultures. I think I read that it was Roman, Greek and Persian separately. Though I'm not sure which one belongs to which culture.


Edit: spoiler tag added.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:05 pm
by Kadi
SPOILERS!!! WAHHHH NOOO. Okay, I don't care, but you might want to use appropriate tags.

Sacred Beast and Divine Beast is... well, I don't really care about which we use. It's just that Divine is already in use and I saw it like that in the dictionary, but in the end, I think the words are similar. Although Sacred implies some kind of inherent goodness... more than Divine, if you consider the existence of evil gods.

About the the 3 Mit...

Spoiler about major twists in Vol 4. Really, don't read it unless you've read Vol 4.
Mitra is the root, the original, somewhere from ancient Persia. It developed into 2 directions.

One is Mithra, sun god and closely related to Verethragna. Same pantheon and all. Verethragna got a few of his powers from Mithra (or was it Mitra? I don't remember)

The other branch, Mithras, is the "wandering version" that was some day adopted by the ancient Romans. Like Perseus, he's "one who came from the east" and they were fused together. That's how Perseus in the novel got powers originating in Verethragna's root which allows him to seal Godou's powers.


Back to discussing translations of terms? (I don't mind straying a bit, but in the end I do want to stay on topic, 許せ)

P.S.: Need help with "ザンパリー二" ZaNPaRiINi. From what I got it's a town in Italy, most likely on Sicily. If not, it might be an Italian name, but I doubt it....

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:20 pm
by lchigo93
Kadi wrote:SPOILERS!!! WAHHHH NOOO. Okay, I don't care, but you might want to use appropriate tags.

Sacred Beast and Divine Beast is... well, I don't really care about which we use. It's just that Divine is already in use and I saw it like that in the dictionary, but in the end, I think the words are similar. Although Sacred implies some kind of inherent goodness... more than Divine, if you consider the existence of evil gods.

About the the 3 Mit...

Spoiler about major twists in Vol 4. Really, don't read it unless you've read Vol 4.
Mitra is the root, the original, somewhere from ancient Persia. It developed into 2 directions.

One is Mithra, sun god and closely related to Verethragna. Same pantheon and all. Verethragna got a few of his powers from Mithra (or was it Mitra? I don't remember)

The other branch, Mithras, is the "wandering version" that was some day adopted by the ancient Romans. Like Perseus, he's "one who came from the east" and they were fused together. That's how Perseus in the novel got powers originating in Verethragna's root which allows him to seal Godou's powers.


Back to discussing translations of terms?

P.S.: Need help with "ザンパリー二" ZaNPaRiINi. From what I got it's a town in Italy, most likely on Sicily. If not, it might be an Italian name, but I doubt it....


Added spoiler tag. Sorry for the post just now.

Spoiler! :
Uhm, in vol.4 of the chinese version I read, it's also mentioned that Perseus was a hero of steel or 钢之英雄 in chinese. It was also mentioned that Salvatore had some sort of similar Authority after he defeated Siegfried. So I was wondering if it was gonna be added into the terminology.

Re: Campione! - Names and Terminology

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:42 pm
by Kadi
Referring to Ichigo's previous spoiler about Vol 4. Again, spoils major twists of Vol 4, so don't read it. Seriously.
Spoiler! :
鋼の英雄... Hero of Steel, yep, that's Perseus, and maybe others. Subjugating the earth-mother-goddesses and the snake-monsters representing them, facilitating Athena's fall from her position as queen mentioned in Vol1 and taking the priestesses as his/their wives... if they wanted it or not (I rather doubt it)... Since Hero of Steel comes up a few times, it might be worth an entry, true. Although I don't like the sound of it. Sounds like some super hero story. Well, I'll keep it in mind and add it to the discussion list with the next batch of questionable terms.

What Salvatore got from the deified Siegfried is "invulnerability inside his body", just like Siegfried gained invulnerability by slaying the dragon Fafnir and bathing in his blood. Except for that one pesky spot in his back where a leaf kept the blood away, eventually allowing Siegfried's murder through betrayal and backstabbing... Siegfried is in the list, but there's no proper name for the power yet. As with most other powers, actually...