So, Incest ending impossibru?

[Onanimousse]

Something you forgot, Tatsuya is in no way a defective magician. His mother considered him defective because he does not conform to HER view of what a magician is.
He was labeled as a defect because he "could not" use magics that are expected of stereotypical magician.

You say others forget he isnt defective when you don't seem to recall when Miya explains to Miyuki what magic is. She doesnt only speak about what the Yotsuba consider a magician, but also broadly speaking what magic is and how it is defined.

"Magic are the techniques which modify Information bodies, and thus change phenomena. However trivial the change is, to be able to make the change at all is magic. But Tatsuya is unable to do that. All he can do is break an Information Body down, and recreate it back in an earlier state. That is not magic in its truest sense. That child, who was born without the talent to use magic in the true sense of the term in altering Information Bodies, is unquestionably a defective magician."

He simply doesnt fit the bill. You are constructing an argument when you start creating lables as "sterotypical magician", unless you can point to any source from the author that confirms there is a thing such as a "sterotypical magician" you are out on very deep water. Miya's explaination is so broad that it covers anything considered magic. He got power, a lot of it, but that is also the only thing he has.

There's a fine line between "can't" use and "could not" use here. He was born with 2 extremely unbalanced specialized magics that took up his entire magic calculation area. They are the reasons he could not use other magic prior to the artificial magic calc area whereas in the case that if he was born without any specialized magic and is still can't effectively use other magic, only then will he fit the label of defective.

There is also a "fine line" between fact and personal opinion spun as fact, called "sources". He has 2 great powers but neither of them are strictly speaking magic as magic is defined in this world. This is something you can not escape. If the powers he was born with was truely considered magic he wouldnt be where he is, not even logical does it make sense to call it magic with in this world. He wouldnt even be an irregular at a magic high school if the power he has was considered magic. The title of the work it self would be wrong.

Tatsuya wasn't born with defective magician-esque genes. On the contrary, those genes were the jackpot that Miya seeked with her selective breeding (lol) but was too blind to see for what they were. His dominion is basically over Life and Death/Creation and Destruction. If anything, any successors to his genes has more to gain than lose

There is nothing wrong with his genes, his father was picked for his high psion count and Miya was of the Yotsuba, so far so good. What they most likely sought was just strong children like Miyuki, not a dud like Tatsuya. Miya knows very well to what extent her sons power reaches, she wasnt blind to anything. His area of expertise is with Destruction and Reconstruction. It is explained what limitations Regrowth has regarding death.

And that means her given opinion should be immediately confirmed as a fact? The author didn't reveal that info though a reliable source if that's what you're assuming her to be. She was a bitter woman who couldn't move forward from her past, whether it's the issue with her sister or a loveless marriage she forced with money and power. Also, members of the Ten Master clans are all raised according to strict standards and guidelines set by their predecessors. Stories with this plot device usually ends up revealing that such standards are outdated and relics of narrowminded fools that poses threatening consequences in the future. The Fourth family wouldn't be as "brainwashed" by these tenets as the other families since they follow a dogma of continually striving for stronger and stronger magic abilities but both sisters were mentored for Kudou for years and it is inevitable that those 2 would pick up some of his principles. She was judging him based on the given meaning of a "magician" and "magic" of the time but wasn't able to see past the limits of just altering.

If I must go about it in a more logical sense. Eidos/Information Bodies in their most stable state is the "normal" world. Based on that their mother said, altering them in any way is considered magic a.k.a. a miracle as it goes against the natural flow of the world. Like how alchemy/science was labeled as witchcraft from back in the Middle Ages all the way to the pre-Industrial Revolution era because they've surpassed the general population's capacity to understand. But even science intrude on the territory of magic if we are to take that meaning and apply it to nuclear reactions that keep a natural element in a high energy state (alteration of Information Body) through constant energy manipulation. Magic is the altering of Eidos and Magicians are people capable of doing so through inborn abilities rather than reliance on technology. For a relative comparison, using machinery to dig up the ground now and 100 years in the future would be the equivalent of using an ox and plow for centuries in the past whereas causing a building to disappear with the wave of a hand is seen the same way now as it would be back then regardless of whether it was through decomposition or light wave refractions. Also, note that magic back then did not have the aid of a CAD. If all the modern magicians were to go without them also, more than most of them would probably find their true ability to be comparable to the "Weeds".And in that case, are they not as defective as those they ridicule?

And if we adopt this is comparison to what Miya said and a legitimate piece of information given throughout the series about the short duration of magical effects ie. "healing" and such, we can even use the duration of these spells to judge whether one is an adequate magician or not. Based on the event in Yokohama where Mari notes that the duration of the same healing spell can differ (probably based on the caster),

If the effective time was short, then a fresh application of healing was immediately necessary.

we can safely assume that a stronger Magician can enforce his/her altering of the planet's Information Body longer than others. But no matter how long they last, they would eventually revert back because the strength of the caster's will is, in the end, weaker than the planet's. In that case, what can we say about Tatsuya who has two magic abilities capable of permanent alteration of Eidos? Personally, I can see two. One in which his natural ability just completely surpass the limits of what a "magician" should be capable of and he cannot be considered a magician because he is an existence that makes such labels meaningless. And two, his abilities are the results of evolution of magic. His father was forced into marriage for his genes (high psion count) but as shown through history of genetic mapping, shit happens. A chromosome splitting incorrectly or mutation because due to the presence of the abnormal amount of psions causing a radiation effect are possibilites that haven't been brought up yet but they haven't been debunked either so they might serve as plot devices in future. As mentioned before, the Ten Master Clans continue to follow an outdated dogma. That alone deprives them of the right to judge the never seen before. We've seen examples of what happens when this stuff happens in other works.

But not even his ‘Regrowth’ could call someone back from death. Life and death was an irreversible cyclic process, the changing of state from ‘alive’ to ‘dead’ being purely intrinsic. ‘Regrowth’ could restore a body back to a perfect state, but the dead do not come back to life. Such an inherent truth was clearer to none other than Tatsuya himself.
Even if the heart had already stopped, the brain shut down, the throat torn open, if that was the extent of their injuries then revival was still possible. Even an instantly fatal wound, as long as rebuilding the body and restarting the circulation of blood would have had even the faintest chance of resuscitating the person, his ‘Regrowth’ could be said to give life to the dead.

Lats but not least, his future children. They will, like all other of Yotsuba blood, inherit within the two lines of magic the Yotsuba inherits from. Ofc the mothers own genes will effect this. This means that his own children may very well inherit from the mind manipulation line rather than his own.[/quote]

Alright, I admit I was going overboard with saying dominion over Life and Death. Was 4am when typing it though. But you can say that his ability revolves around returning to the world in its natural state. In the sleepy trance I was in when typing that, I probably made the connection between that concept and the concept of the world in its most natural state being the creation of God. In Nasuverse terms, he was the embodiment of the planet's will for the correction of its natural flow.

Also, as seen in the last chapter of volume 9, Tatsuya is not capable of mind manipulation magic. He personally told Miyuki that he figured out how it works just enough to initiate an imperfect release of his abilities after her most recent unlocking of his true power. If his two "divine" abilities are result of genetic mutations, it is likely that it also resulted in the loss of the recessive gene for mental magic. So unless he gets it on with Miyuki, his kids are more likely to inherit offshoots of his own magic since the other females that has displayed any special feelings for him do not have any outstandingly unique magic ability. Mayumi and Erika (and maybe Azusa) basically have higher specs than average in their specialized area. I'm not including Lina since she is the representative magician for the USA so it would be impossible for themend up together. She can't go rogue without headhunters on her rear unless Tatsuya decides to dump Miyuki and threatens to obliterate the continent if they decide to pursue her.

[Niflheim]

And that means her given opinion should be immediately confirmed as a fact? The author didn't reveal that info though a reliable source if that's what you're assuming her to be.

But her opinion is fact within the realm of this world, you labeling it "her opinion" doesnt change what it represents. She is explaining to Miyuki why her brother isnt considered a magician despite what he did a moment ago. Until the author changes the status quo of that piece of information on the basic workings of whats defined as magic and what it is to be a magician it is canon, utterly regardless of what you or I might think about it. Sorry but I have to ask, are you a smurf of that other poster that wanted to seperate the author from the characters regarding what pieces of information that is more valid? All of what we read is from the author, be it narrated information, spoken by a character or just the thoughts of one, it is all from the same source. It is not like the characters sprung to life to chip in thier two cent on a topic or in this case thier own defention of what magic is. You can't seperate what Miya said as something the author didnt want to tell us.

She was a bitter woman who couldn't move forward from her past, whether it's the issue with her sister or a loveless marriage she forced with money and power. Also, members of the Ten Master clans are all raised according to strict standards and guidelines set by their predecessors. Stories with this plot device usually ends up revealing that such standards are outdated and relics of narrowminded fools that poses threatening consequences in the future. The Fourth family wouldn't be as "brainwashed" by these tenets as the other families since they follow a dogma of continually striving for stronger and stronger magic abilities but both sisters were mentored for Kudou for years and it is inevitable that those 2 would pick up some of his principles. She was judging him based on the given meaning of a "magician" and "magic" of the time but wasn't able to see past the limits of just altering.

Kudou thought them as students for what is called a short period of time, unless you got some other source on what that means I'd cut back on the exaggerations. As for her mental state, quilt ridden because she broke her son to the point where he only recognizes her as "that thing" called mother, while watching him truely love his sister. Since it is all open for speculation but I'd advise you to reread vol 8, it gives you a decent grasp of thier rather complicated parent/child relationship. The marriage was one out of convinience. The Yotsuba got a desired blood line, He got compensated and they didnt do much about his affair with the lover they forced him from. We can also deduce it happend around the time she got out of her 10 year hospital trip. You say loveless. Doubt there was any to begin with.

If I must go about it in a more logical sense. Eidos/Information Bodies in their most stable state is the "normal" world. Based on that their mother said, altering them in any way is considered magic a.k.a. a miracle as it goes against the natural flow of the world. Like how alchemy/science was labeled as witchcraft from back in the Middle Ages all the way to the pre-Industrial Revolution era because they've surpassed the general population's capacity to understand. But even science intrude on the territory of magic if we are to take that meaning and apply it to nuclear reactions that keep a natural element in a high energy state (alteration of Information Body) through constant energy manipulation. Magic is the altering of Eidos and Magicians are people capable of doing so through inborn abilities rather than reliance on technology. For a relative comparison, using machinery to dig up the ground now and 100 years in the future would be the equivalent of using an ox and plow for centuries in the past whereas causing a building to disappear with the wave of a hand is seen the same way now as it would be back then regardless of whether it was through decomposition or light wave refractions. Also, note that magic back then did not have the aid of a CAD. If all the modern magicians were to go without them also, more than most of them would probably find their true ability to be comparable to the "Weeds".And in that case, are they not as defective as those they ridicule?

And if we adopt this is comparison to what Miya said and a legitimate piece of information given throughout the series about the short duration of magical effects ie. "healing" and such, we can even use the duration of these spells to judge whether one is an adequate magician or not. Based on the event in Yokohama where Mari notes that the duration of the same healing spell can differ (probably based on the caster),

If the effective time was short, then a fresh application of healing was immediately necessary.

we can safely assume that a stronger Magician can enforce his/her altering of the planet's Information Body longer than others. But no matter how long they last, they would eventually revert back because the strength of the caster's will is, in the end, weaker than the planet's. In that case, what can we say about Tatsuya who has two magic abilities capable of permanent alteration of Eidos? Personally, I can see two. One in which his natural ability just completely surpass the limits of what a "magician" should be capable of and he cannot be considered a magician because he is an existence that makes such labels meaningless. And two, his abilities are the results of evolution of magic. His father was forced into marriage for his genes (high psion count) but as shown through history of genetic mapping, shit happens.

All that and I honestly can't see where you are going, what Miya tells us isnt conceptually hard.
Magic modifies the information body, and change phenomena. Tatsuya destroys down to the molecular level and rewriting the edios with it's previous information (if we are going to go with Miyukis explanation). What is the issue? Other than that it makes Tatsuya a defective magician. Right next over to healing magic. Since I can't find where you pulled that quote, I'll just look over this.

"How long will Tatsuya-kun's magic last?"
Using magic to heal was only a temporary measure. That was the basic rule of healing magic.
By constantly recasting the magic during its effective period and repeatedly cheating the world, this was the only way to finally stabilize the illusion of healing in the actual world.
If the effective time was short, then a fresh application of healing was immediately necessary.
"It's perpetual."

What sets Regrowth aside from actual healing magic is that magic isnt eternal due to how the edios strives to restores itself when it is effected by an alteration such as magic. Regrowth goes back to the point in the Edios information right before an alteration effected it. No external information is added, only already existing information in the edios is used. Healing magic is a direct alteration that the edios tries to revert, hence why there is a need to recast over and over to cheat the world. So no, Regrowth isnt by defenition magic.
You are right shit can happen with genetics, it can give you a dud like Tatsuya when you were hoping on a gem like Miyuki.

A chromosome splitting incorrectly or mutation because due to the presence of the abnormal amount of psions causing a radiation effect are possibilites that haven't been brought up yet but they haven't been debunked either so they might serve as plot devices in future. As mentioned before, the Ten Master Clans continue to follow an outdated dogma. That alone deprives them of the right to judge the never seen before. We've seen examples of what happens when this stuff happens in other works.

Can not be more speculative than this. "I was wrong but you just wait what might happen in the future and what was done in other works so I'm not wrong anyway!!" Is that your last line of defense? What has been used in other works or what might happen that we don't know will not change the current status quo as to what magic is in the world currently.

Also, as seen in the last chapter of volume 9, Tatsuya is not capable of mind manipulation magic. He personally told Miyuki that he figured out how it works just enough to initiate an imperfect release of his abilities after her most recent unlocking of his true power. If his two "divine" abilities are result of genetic mutations, it is likely that it also resulted in the loss of the recessive gene for mental magic. So unless he gets it on with Miyuki, his kids are more likely to inherit offshoots of his own magic since the other females that has displayed any special feelings for him do not have any outstandingly unique magic ability. Mayumi and Erika (and maybe Azusa) basically have higher specs than average in their specialized area. I'm not including Lina since she is the representative magician for the USA so it would be impossible for themend up together. She can't go rogue without headhunters on her rear unless Tatsuya decides to dump Miyuki and threatens to obliterate the continent if they decide to pursue her.

You are reading things that arent there and reading to far into things. What I said was that Tatsuya's children may inherit from 1 of the 2 different types of magic that is present in the Yotsuba genes. 1 of thoes are mind manipulation, the one Miya and Miyuki inherited from, the other includes Maya and Tatsuya.

I saved this for last. Please stop spinning your opinion that his two powers are some warped evolutionary stage when it comes to magic in this work to try and pass them of as magic. You are blantly making things up.

[Onanimousse]

I admit that I do tend to read too far into things and make speculation based off them. However, you are taking too much of the given info given at face value. I'm sorry but authors do not have habit of having all the major and minor characters constantly reveal 100% accurate info. Writers can and will purposely work what they feel are appropriate biases into the dialogues to build character and throw readers off. It's a common literary technique. What Miya said may be canon but that doesn't make it true. And while I'm at it, I also based much of my speculations on some of the more common plot techniques used in other works, which pretty much goes in a predictable fashion given that they're light novels.
Face it, this series isn't exactly original. While some parts are a suprisingly refreshing twist compared to the norms that most the other generic LNs seem to go by, indicators of the more commonly used plot devices has been foreshadowed since volume 1. A group of old men insistent on enforcing their traditions to maintain their authority? Anyone who's read any popular series, Japanese or not, can partially tell what that could lead to. We may not necessarily be able to predict how the author would do this 100% but as long as it's a LN, anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that.

And before I reread volume 8, you need to reread the first 4 volumes yourself. It was stated throughout that manipulating the information body technically involves manipulating the molecular bonds. Read the 9 school tournament specifically. Tons of confirmation given there. And just what does Tatsuya's magic allow him him to do? Breaking down molecular ands and forcing them together is technically manipulating the molecules aka eidos. He simply do so to the extreme rather than from the middle ground that the magicians are accustomed to. Since speculation is making any sense for you, how about this technical stance?

Have you not heard the phrase, magic is the power to bring forth miracles? Just because the commonly used healing magic has a temporary duration does not equal all healing magic are the same. Sure it's because of the eidos. But what about if you look at this way. Temporary recovery is not healing at all in any sense of the word. it's the same as putting a bandage over a cut so nothing could interfere with the natural recovery. In this case, regrowth is definitely the only true healing magic in the series thus far.

The difference between us is that, putting it nicely, you are seeing 1 as only +1 where I see it can be either +1 or -1 or even 1i.
I agree I speculate too much sometimes but it'll happen when I see people making claims based on stuff they read and took at face value.
And no, I'm not an alt account of another poster. I rarely visits the forums and just happened to this time while reading up on the upcoming anime adaptation. I hold a semblance of respect for the way the author made Tatsuya's personality out to be since it also

[Niflheim]

I admit that I do tend to read too far into things and make speculation based off them. However, you are taking too much of the given info given at face value. I'm sorry but authors do not have habit of having all the major and minor characters constantly reveal 100% accurate info. Writers can and will purposely work what they feel are appropriate biases into the dialogues to build character and throw readers off. It's a common literary technique. What Miya said may be canon but that doesn't make it true. And while I'm at it, I also based much of my speculations on some of the more common plot techniques used in other works, which pretty much goes in a predictable fashion given that they're light novels.

Speculations are all fine, as long as it is made clear it is that, specially when arguing against an established defenition within the work. Maybe it is just a different approach to a fantasy work, or any other for that matter, but unless a piece of information is retconed (big FU Blizzard) or otherwise contradicted within the work it is something I consider hard fact. Unless I would do that I might as well doubt and question every singel thing given and that is frankly stupid and wouldnt make for a good read, equally stupid would be to be selective in what information I doubt because it doesnt align with my personal belief on something.

Face it, this series isn't exactly original. While some parts are a suprisingly refreshing twist compared to the norms that most the other generic LNs seem to go by, indicators of the more commonly used plot devices has been foreshadowed since volume 1. A group of old men insistent on enforcing their traditions to maintain their authority? Anyone who's read any popular series, Japanese or not, can partially tell what that could lead to. We may not necessarily be able to predict how the author would do this 100% but as long as it's a LN, anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that.

As far as magic stories goes I'd say it is original simply based on how the magic works, this is one of the larger parts of the story for me so I don't really care that the rest of it is a tad cliché. It has had some interesting twists for me to set it aside even there so overall I'm pretty pleased.

And before I reread volume 8, you need to reread the first 4 volumes yourself. It was stated throughout that manipulating the information body technically involves manipulating the molecular bonds. Read the 9 school tournament specifically. Tons of confirmation given there. And just what does Tatsuya's magic allow him him to do? Breaking down molecular ands and forcing them together is technically manipulating the molecules aka eidos. He simply do so to the extreme rather than from the middle ground that the magicians are accustomed to. Since speculation is making any sense for you, how about this technical stance?

Finished 4 last friday so I'll pass on a reread at this moment, won't be long til I'm there again though. Now, when you use lines like the one bolded and underlined you will need to provide some of these confirmations, you can not tell the other party to go and read a good 900-1000 pages and look for things they havent seen before. Even more so when you are arguing against the authors own defenition.

Have you not heard the phrase, magic is the power to bring forth miracles? Just because the commonly used healing magic has a temporary duration does not equal all healing magic are the same. Sure it's because of the eidos. But what about if you look at this way. Temporary recovery is not healing at all in any sense of the word. it's the same as putting a bandage over a cut so nothing could interfere with the natural recovery. In this case, regrowth is definitely the only true healing magic in the series thus far.

You are leaving the boarders of this world again.

Using magic to heal was only a (1)temporary measure. That was the (2)basic rule of healing magic.
By constantly recasting the magic during its effective period and (3)repeatedly cheating the world, this was the only way to finally (4)stabilize the illusion of healing in the actual world.

To our knowledge there is only healing magic, there is no common or uncommon to our knowledge. 1 state that it is temporary, 2 sets it up as the norm 3 and 4 confirms that albite it is called healing still it is viewed as not true healing. Regrowth can be seen as true healing, but it does not fall under the given defenition of what is magic regardless.

The difference between us is that, putting it nicely, you are seeing 1 as only +1 where I see it can be either +1 or -1 or even 1i.
I agree I speculate too much sometimes but it'll happen when I see people making claims based on stuff they read and took at face value.
And no, I'm not an alt account of another poster. I rarely visits the forums and just happened to this time while reading up on the upcoming anime adaptation. I hold a semblance of respect for the way the author made Tatsuya's personality out to be since it also

I'd guess the difference is that I don't atempt to impose my own defention of a concept within the work to make it align with my own belief when there is an established defenition. I can, and do a lot, speculate when it is called for, like the original purpose of this thread. If there were a thread that dealt with who we thought Tatsuya ends up with if any and why we thought that character you would see some rather outrages speculating and logical leaps on my part, but when discussing established defenitions I see no reason to speculate the slightest.

[Onanimousse]

And I'll say it again. You are taking everything at face value. Has my mentioning of misdirecting readers with literary techniques not make it through to you somehow? This is still a nowhere near finished series. The author can just as easily overturn everything you have cited so far the way my speculations could either be hit or miss. Actually, at times like this, citing what is currently revealed as simply FACTS is the ridiculous notion given the severely limited amount of info we have in proportion to 9 and a half volume of translated content. Sure we got a lot of the details from the expositions and all but how much do we even know about the backgrounds of magic in the story. We were given no real background info on how the standards of magic were decided other than speedy modern technique beating the slow casting ancient magic and have that notion overthrown by Tatsuya in the same arc.

I find it that you constantly quote what the characters were made to say but not give thought to common sense. Can you seriously call putting on a bandage healing? Rather than saying that that is how healing magic works, it can just as well be that before Tatsuya, there were no healing magic so whoever was calling the shots simply gave that label to what they now call healing in order to avert some if the fear and hostility the normal population felt toward the magic community. The early hostility against magicians is if I may, canon info that actually makes sense.

And if you want examples, try rereading the match between Miyuki and Shizuku for outright description of energy transference and control which comes from manipulating molecular bonds. Or the mirage bat match for Honoka where if you examine a little deeper than the surface, would understand that lights suddenly appear because molecules in the air are manipulated to release energy probably through vibration at various strengths in the determined loications. If I slept my way through AP chem and physics and still reach this conclusion, how can you not?

If you have actually laid any real thoughts to what I've said thus far, I made sure to include indicators of what if's in all my speculations. That is me offering my ideas not forcing them. I was using their possibilities to counter your so call canon facts. And since you're gonna start with personal attacks against me, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. The difference between us is that I question the inconsistencies and incomplete/questionable details given whereas you're citing a nowhere near complete series for facts. It is one thing to speculate but to quote potentially incorrect info to "win" a debate... I say you need to stop trying to impose your "canon" info on me. I can accept it just fine when the author has it confirmed reliably. Otherwise I'll take everything with a grain of salt since this series validate that method with it's slowly progressing plot and the many foreseeable twists.

[Niflheim]

yare yare

And I'll say it again. You are taking everything at face value. Has my mentioning of misdirecting readers with literary techniques not make it through to you somehow? This is still a nowhere near finished series. The author can just as easily overturn everything you have cited so far the way my speculations could either be hit or miss. Actually, at times like this, citing what is currently revealed as simply FACTS is the ridiculous notion given the severely limited amount of info we have in proportion to 9 and a half volume of translated content. Sure we got a lot of the details from the expositions and all but how much do we even know about the backgrounds of magic in the story. We were given no real background info on how the standards of magic were decided other than speedy modern technique beating the slow casting ancient magic and have that notion overthrown by Tatsuya in the same arc.

You used the 'can' word, and I had some hope for you. What the author can do, or what the author can have planed is equal to Graham's number of different things. This is why using your own speculations as some sort of truth against the only information given that can currently be considered fact the ridiulous notion. Since it has come to this I'll ask for your logical explaination to some things if we are to ignore the given defenition to what constitutes magic.
Why did the Yotsuba deem him defective if his two powers are magic?
Why did they need to perform an illigal operation on his mind if the two powers he has is magic?
What would make him an irreuglar at a magic high school if the the two powers he has is magic?

I find it that you constantly quote what the characters were made to say but not give thought to common sense. Can you seriously call putting on a bandage healing? Rather than saying that that is how healing magic works, it can just as well be that before Tatsuya, there were no healing magic so whoever was calling the shots simply gave that label to what they now call healing in order to avert some if the fear and hostility the normal population felt toward the magic community. The early hostility against magicians is if I may, canon info that actually makes sense.

Using your common sense, real life one here I might add, upon a fantasy work and even more so on a term such as healing magic. Mind blown? I don't see why you are arguing against healing magic when the characters within the world where it is used themselves know that it isnt really healing but more cheating the world and creating an illusion. And again with that icky 'can' word, you should really stop using it unless you got some information that contradicts what we know within the fantasy world.

And if you want examples, try rereading the match between Miyuki and Shizuku for outright description of energy transference and control which comes from manipulating molecular bonds. Or the mirage bat match for Honoka where if you examine a little deeper than the surface, would understand that lights suddenly appear because molecules in the air are manipulated to release energy probably through vibration at various strengths in the determined loications. If I slept my way through AP chem and physics and still reach this conclusion, how can you not?

Inferno, Resonance, Data Fortification, Niflheim and Phonon Maser, nethier are decomposition magic. So compare the effects of thoes 5 spells with the quote below on what happens when Tatstuya uses Mist despersion on a human target and see if they can replicate that.

The decomposition was so complete that it was no longer recognizable as a biological entity and left no traces that this was a living being. Proteins were broken down into hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur; the bones were rendered down to phosphorus, oxygen, and calcium; everything including blood, the nervous system, stored nutrients, even waste was decomposed down to the molecules and ions.

Since you have forsaken the original "topic" of Tatsuyas powers being magic or not to go over to looking at 5 other spells I should just point that out and leave it. You have just moved the goalposts. How thoes spells change phenomena doesnt change what Mist Dispersion does. As for Mirage Bat.

A holographic sphere is projected in the air

Don't go assume that Miyukis training method for the event is how it actually is played out at the competition.

If you have actually laid any real thoughts to what I've said thus far, I made sure to include indicators of what if's in all my speculations. That is me offering my ideas not forcing them. I was using their possibilities to counter your so call canon facts. And since you're gonna start with personal attacks against me, I'm gonna go ahead and say this. The difference between us is that I question the inconsistencies and incomplete/questionable details given whereas you're citing a nowhere near complete series for facts. It is one thing to speculate but to quote potentially incorrect info to "win" a debate... I say you need to stop trying to impose your "canon" info on me. I can accept it just fine when the author has it confirmed reliably. Otherwise I'll take everything with a grain of salt since this series validate that method with it's slowly progressing plot and the many foreseeable twists.

Thought it was obvious I had given this some thought, guess all my typing has come of as random ramblings.
Simple obscure indicators while offering ideas is how misinformation is born on the internet. You are using unfounded speculative possibilities to question what the author has established as factual information currently. The normal way of doing things, at least for me when I question something in a written work, is to offer the part you question as well as the reasons for why to the rest of the class to look at. This becomes even more important when there are two very polar opposite opinions on it. You speak of inconsistencies and incomplete details, share with the class so we can look at them please.

[Kurumi]

Why did they need to perform an illigal operation on his mind if the two powers he has is magic?

Well, it was never said that his 'Decomposition' magic wasnt considered magic, Tatsuya's mother, aka Miya, said that only about his 'Regrowth'.
Vol 2 Chap 11

This was one of the most difficult magics imaginable, able to directly interfere with the design information.

So yeah, his 'Decomposition' is considered magic.

About 'Regrowth' not being considered magic: I think that the Yotsuba didnt consider this magic simply because of the fact that they couldnt classify 'Regrowth' under any of the already known systems of magic. It is an entirely new kind of magic that they couldnt classify.

About why they did the operation on him:
Vol 8 Chap 14

"But, we the Yotsuba are magicians who stand amongst the Ten Master Houses, and therefore one who cannot use magic cannot be a Yotsuba. That child, unable to use magic, could not live as one of the Yotsuba. So Maya and I, seven years ago, performed a certain operation on him. Although truth be told, the motivation behind that experiment wasn’t that alone……"

Half the reason was that they wanted him to be able to use normal magic the other half is that they wanted to see if an 'Artificial Magician' could be created.

Why did the Yotsuba deem him defective if his two powers are magic?

It may be an exageration on my part but, I see Tatsuya as an "evolution" of a magician (a pseudo evolution would be more accurately since he couldnt use magic to alter the phenomena though). A modern magician can only alter 'Information Bodies' but cant destroy and neither reconstruct them directly. Since Tasuya could only destroy/reconstruct 'information Bodies' and not alter them it wasnt wrong to label him as defective. If you see the thing the other way, all the 'normal' magicians are defective too because they can alter but cant destroy/reconstruct 'Information Bodies' but, since Tatsuya is the only one different and has only two magics (minority), he's the only one that is viewed as 'defective'.

What would make him an irreuglar at a magic high school if the the two powers he has is magic?

I think that the irregular here is because Tatsuya is different of the rest and even though he is labeled as a 'Weed' as a failure his achievements are above of an A class magician.
Vol 5 Chap "Presidential Elections and the Queen"

—Through lots of time and labor, scholars around the world took their accumulated knowledge, bundled it up, and constructed the current rating system for magicians.
—His existence questioned the validity of that system.
—Even by rounding up, he was only C-rank by international standards.
—In spite of that, all the actual results that she and others had seen for themselves exceeded those of an A-rank magician.

The monologue of Mayumi here show to us why he is 'irregular'.

[Niflheim]

Well, it was never said that his 'Decomposition' magic wasnt considered magic, Tatsuya's mother, aka Miya, said that only about his 'Regrowth'.
Vol 2 Chap 11

This was one of the most difficult magics imaginable, able to directly interfere with the design information.

So yeah, his 'Decomposition' is considered magic.

"Magic are the techniques which modify Information bodies, and thus change phenomena. However trivial the change is, to be able to make the change at all is magic. But Tatsuya is unable to do that. All he can do is break an Information Body down, and recreate it back in an earlier state. That is not magic in its truest sense. That child, who was born without the talent to use magic in the true sense of the term in altering Information Bodies, is unquestionably a defective magician."

I should make this quote my catch phrase, could probs find it in my sleep by now.
Where is the modification to the information body that changes phenomena when Mist dispersion is used?

If it was an Information Body, then he could directly disassemble the design.

You missed a line, and it gives context because it falls in line with what Miya tells Miyuki about his powers, "directly disassemble the design" falls in line with "break an information body down", they have the same meaning.

About 'Regrowth' not being considered magic: I think that the Yotsuba didnt consider this magic simply because of the fact that they couldnt classify 'Regrowth' under any of the already known systems of magic. It is an entirely new kind of magic that they couldnt classify.

Or it could just be so simple as the Regrowth doesnt fit within the only defenition of what magic, regardless of difficulty, boils down too.

About why they did the operation on him:
Vol 8 Chap 14

"But, we the Yotsuba are magicians who stand amongst the Ten Master Houses, and therefore one who cannot use magic cannot be a Yotsuba. That child, unable to use magic, could not live as one of the Yotsuba. So Maya and I, seven years ago, performed a certain operation on him. Although truth be told, the motivation behind that experiment wasn’t that alone……"

Half the reason was that they wanted him to be able to use normal magic the other half is that they wanted to see if an 'Artificial Magician' could be created.

While you are sort of right if you decide to skip the contiunation to what Miya says and not stop when Miyukis thoughts interupts.

"The Artificial Magician Plan. A project to implant in the consciousness of a person who isn’t a magician, a man-made magic operation area and thus give him the abilities of a magician."

Why would they need to do this on a person with magic powers, and thus in extension is considered a magician? The operation and experimental nature of it is to see if you can creat a magician. But he would already be one if his powers were considered magic.

It may be an exageration on my part but, I see Tatsuya as an "evolution" of a magician. A modern magician can only alter 'Information Bodies' but cant destroy and neither reconstruct them directly. Since Tasuya could only destroy/reconstruct 'information Bodies' and not alter them it wasnt wrong to label him as defective. If you see the thing the other way, all the 'normal' magicians are defective too because they can alter but cant destroy/reconstruct 'Information Bodies' but, since Tatsuya is the only one different and has only two magics (minority), he's the only one that is viewed as 'defective'.

Your reasoning springs another rather tricky question though as to why destruction/reconstruction would some how be the norm as to what defines a magician? Your thought only holds as well if the accepted defention as to what is magic is changed, if it remains unchanged they will still be magicians regardless of thier ability to destroy to a molecular level or rewrite the edios. We are stuck in that we got a very strict defention to what true magic is, until it changes.

I think that the irregular here is because Tatsuya is different of the rest and even though he is labeled as a 'Weed' as a failure his achievements are above of an A class magician.
Vol 5 Chap "Presidential Elections and the Queen"

—Through lots of time and labor, scholars around the world took their accumulated knowledge, bundled it up, and constructed the current rating system for magicians.
—His existence questioned the validity of that system.
—Even by rounding up, he was only C-rank by international standards.
—In spite of that, all the actual results that she and others had seen for themselves exceeded those of an A-rank magician.

The monologue of Mayumi here show to us why he is 'irregular'.

That just shows a flaw in the ranking system for not taking into account the application of magic. This is what makes him beat Hattori, application not raw strength. It is what makes the inferior monolith code team win, application of magic. Kudou speaks about application in his opening speach at the Nine Schools Competition.
The ranking system only tests the areas where he truely is weak. If this is what makes him an irregular plenty of course 2 students would be as well, so he wouldnt be irregular.

[Niflheim]

Time for some first class hindsight.
I'd like to make the small suggestion that to not hijack this thread any further than we have already done, we as one stop the current discussion where it is. Alternatively if someone strongly feel like contiuing it they start a new thread for it, I'll take part in a contiuation if so. This despite that this thread has been tad OT since page 4-5 but currently we are around Pluto in terms of the topic.

[crisisavatar]

Just going to quietly leave this here:

https://apps.facebook.com/forumforpages ... adc76fcc/0

[Niflheim]

Just going to quietly leave this here:

https://apps.facebook.com/forumforpages ... adc76fcc/0

Well, it sounds like you agree with him. May I inquier as to way and on what points?
***
Since I didnt ruin my laptop splurting coffee all over it reading that I'll jot down some general thoughts, just like most things that entier post lack any form of actual sources despite making an array of claims that really need some backing. I'll take one quote and take it from there.

To be specific: it has been confirmed that Tatsuya is HEAVILY based on Shiva, the Hindu God of Destruction and Regeneration, while Miyuki is based on various Goddesses of Death

Since his entier theoyy hinges on this, this is something he needs to substantiate with either an interview with the author or other information that can be connected to the author. Without that it is just a fanboy rambling on about his desired ending and constructing his argument for it. Also even if the author has confirmed that the characters are based on deities from various mythologies to a certain extent, this guy is making the massive assumption that 'based on' equals ' mirrored on'. Thats not the only problem, not all views within Hinduism regards Shiva as the supreme god either, which further the need for sourcing. Further on Shiva is only refered to as the Destroyer or the Transformer within the hindu Trimurati, nothing about regeneration.

Then we have the factually wrong statement that only deities marry thier sister. Honstly, I thought it was common knowledge that incesteus marriages were practiced in ancient egypt to a certain extent for the purpose of keeping the "blood clean". One blantly wrong "fact" puts him up the creek without a paddle.

However the best was actually the on the 4th line when he claimed he wasn't "fanboying" it. It is more or less unsubstantiated fan drivel and he keeps beating his own drum all the way to the end, it wasn't anything other than "fanboying". Going as far as hinting at a mathematical beauty with their school year, birthdays and time between births, guess it is true what they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

With that said, and my previous posts on the subject, I guess I come off as someone that don't approve of this type of ending. Frankly speaking I don't care, I got my own thoughts and theory on the subject of who ends up with who in the end. It is just that many that wish for the incesteus ending tries to find random theories to justify it, when all they really need to say is that is what they want. The above link is a good example of it. We are all fans of the same series, yet that guy tries to be above that claiming he isnt "fanboying" to somehow make his theory more valid. All that while the entier post screams "fan boy!" with side tracking his reasoning and that annoying use of capsing words to emphasis them as if we are to dumb to get it otherwise.

[crisisavatar]

Went all out on that response I see =p

Let me begin by saying I am not particularly familiar with the mythology of the gods in question. That being said the results I got from google support the Shiva-Tatsuya connection beyond a doubt, even looking at his sons they don't feel alien at all.

Without going over every point let me clarify my stance on this piece, I think it's fun; thats kinda it. I also believe the op doesn't believe this is how things are and you can expect a mirror of Shiva-Tatsuya events, this is just nerding out for him and connecting the dots which he clarifies in his second post along with the fact he doesn't think they are ACTUAL gods.

However If you feel an internet skirmish is in order over whether Tatsuya is based on Shiva or not I can do a bit of that later for you = )

[Niflheim]

That wasn't very much really. Since his entire theory hinged on one claim that he could not substantiate it didnt really need much. Had I gone all out you would have been greeted by a massive wall of text full of quotes

Just look at the part of where he named magic Miyuki uses. Inferno is a no brainer of what it is mythology wise. Niflheim however isnt where the dead go in norse mythology, not until later after the creation. In norse mythology the way you died and the choice of Odin decided where you went in the afterlife. So while on one level he is sort of right he is at the same time wrong for making such a simple destinction that once dead you end up in Niflheim. Cocytus isn't either the final destination in greek mythology, it is just 1 of the 5 rivers around hades with Styx being the famous one. This gets even more complicated when you consider the name Miya earned which is one of the other rivers as well, Mistress of Lethe.

I don't doubt that on some level Tatsuya is modeled after Shiva, the name given to him by the great asian alliance is Mahesvara and if i recall correct that is what Shiva is called in some buddhist work. But I won't do some great logical leap to imply all aspects of the deity Shiva will be incoperated into the character Tatsuya and that is simply because the entier mythology around Shiva is so complex even within hinduism.

His second post is even more depended on that his initial theory is correct. It also mixes up and embellishing around Parvati and Sati.

Going to climb down the walls now.
To be honest the more of these theories I work my way through the more I start to believe that the hinting of more than a sibling relationship is just a cheap ploy and bait, bloody brilliant one too, to instigate these types of theories to just get more readers one way or another.

[NewAgeOfPower]

Wow. You guys took this way off track.

[Niflheim]

Guess you just wanted to bump the thread after a week of silence