Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by florza »

Hmm, an exothermic reaction would make sense there.

Heat is released from the system (the ice particles) and then converted into kinetic energy by magic.

Check with the JP raws to be on the safer side though.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

Exothermic reaction? That's chemistry. The molecular composition of the object isn't changing, only the phase (water vapor in air being changed to ice), so I don't think there's any chemical reaction taking place. However, if by "exothermic reaction" you're referring to the phase change, then your theory is correct.

Since Tatsuya is discussing the conservation of energy, the question is which forms of energy is he (and therefore the author) taking into account. Internal/Thermal/Kinetic/Potential/Chemical energy?

But it is as you say, we can only really be sure by looking at the raws. Except, I don't speak Japanese or Chinese, so I need input from a translator.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

What are the opinions on using 1st Year student versus Year 1 student?

I prefer the former since that's what we call new students at our university – we don't call new students "freshman" like Americans do – so it feels more natural. Also, you could collective refer to those students as "First Years" (like our University Administrators call them), but calling them "Year Ones" wouldn't sound right.

"All the 2nd Years were on the field" VS "All the Year 2's were on the field"
"I'm a 2nd Year" VS "I'm a Year 2" (I'm here too?)

However, it's not about what I want, but what the majority wants. Viva Democracy! :D

So what do you guys think? If you're not strongly opposed to it, then may I suggest we stick with "1st Year student"?

Edit: I'll be changing all the instances of "Freshmen" to "1st Years", and (if I come across it) "Sophomores" to "2nd Years". I'd rather avoid Americanization in the translation. 8)
Last edited by MiY4Gi on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by Guest »

Please add the "Fairy Dance" alternative name for "Mirage Bat" (as described in volume 3 chapter 2) to the Guidelines page. As the event name translations have changed, it can be confusing to have an event name that's apparently still valid but not mentioned in the list. I can't add it myself as I don't know the kanji.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

I believe a Glossary/Terminology page or index would be useful for this particular LN story. There are just too many technical words for editors/translators to track in this thread. Can someone create one (i.e. a Glossary Page) under the Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei main page please?

Anyway, what's the general consensus on the usage of "Magic" versus "Magics".

Firstly, what is the definition of Magic in this story? In this story, I like to think of Magic as one of the world's sciences. So you have chemistry, physics, and then you have magic. Magic may overcome the physics/chemistry of a target, but only as long as the magic is in effect, and once the magic is gone the target's state will tend back to the state dictated by physics and chemistry. Even if magic isn't always present (while physics is e.g. Gravity), the laws of magic are - that is, you can predict the outcome of a magic before you cast it. Now, that was referring to Magic as a science and in that case it cannot have a singular or plural form - so it is simply "magic", not "a Magic", nor "many magics".

However, what word do we have that refers to a "single instance of using" magic? That is, what comprises the Activation Sequence, Construction Sequence, etc? Is it a magic? Is it a magic casting? Is it "a magic spell"? Is it "a magic sequence"? Does the word have a singular/plural form? Where the act of using magic is concerned, could a person "use one magic", or "use many magics", or does he simply "use Magic"?

Since I'm most familiar with magic not having a plural (and I probably speak for many readers) I feel that we only need to use "magics" where it is absolutely necessary. When referring to "Magic" as a science or a law (like physics) it should not have a plural. When referring to the "usage of magic" in general, it should not have a plural. However, when there's an obvious need to differentiate between the number of magic "spells" being activated, then both the singular "magic" and plural "magics" may be used.

Here's an example where I feel the word was used correctly.

Mari canceled her forward acceleration and switched to parallel rotational acceleration, using the waves crashing back from the walls of the aqueduct and her own magic to spin the board halfway around.

Next, she used multiple recalculations to use two new magics and prepared to receive the out of control Seventh High player.

First she used Move-Type Magic to fling away the player's board and then applied Weight-Type Inertial Neutralization Magic to prevent herself from crashing into the railing after catching the other player.


Please state your arguments, if you have any. :)

EDIT:

I see we have a Glossary already (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... i:Glossary), but it isn't very comprehensive. Perhaps editors can use this as a reference manual for terminology? However, for it to be useful, it has to include every technical term in the story. Also, the Glossary needs to be devoid of spoilers.

Currently, the link to the Glossary could be made more visible. Perhaps at the bottom of each chapter there could be a list new words, each with a link to its entry in the glossary.

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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by Dreyakis »

The Year 1 student vs. First Year student is something I'm on the fence on. First on all, Year 1 student is literally how it's pronounced. For example, one time the text specifically mentioned the difference between One Hundred and First Independent Battalion vs. One Zero One Independent Battalion. The latter is how the pronunciation is done in Japanese, and that's been kept in the actual text. From an English perspective, First Year definitely makes more sense, hence why I'm on the fence about it.

Regarding the terms "magic" vs. "magics", I've used the word "magic" almost as a catch-all term. Unlike chemistry or physics, we would refer to them as the overall field, for example: the field of physics or field of chemistry. We would never say, "I used the physics". However, this is not the case for the term "magic". Magic is both the name of the field of study itself, and also the components and application within the field. I could say the "field of magic" just as easily as I could use "Tatsuya cast Move-Type Magic".

In terms of sheer breakdown, this is how I visualize magic vs. Magic Sequences.

1) Magic Sequence - the act of casting magic itself
2) Activation Sequence - the act of preparing materials/chanting/etc. in order to cast magic
3) Magic - the actual manifested phenomenon

So the long and short of it is, yes, there are plural terms and no, they are not the same. Multiple characters have run Activation/Magic Sequences parallel to one another to simultaneously cast magics at the same time. (Tatsuya and Shizuku come to mind). Since they are casting two magics at the same time, I refer to it as such.

The glossary section is in the same situation as the list of characters for each chapter: work that's yet to be done. Currently, the terminology page is more for the various translators to be on the same page for terms and names. We don't have a formal dictionary for this series yet.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

I don't fully understand what Tatsuya is saying in the second paragraph – particularly the bolded line. Can someone please clarify?

"......So you weren't joking when you said you can comprehend anything you could see. It is a variant of 'Thunder Child'. In order to hide the weakness of the technique, additional layers were added on to disguise the original ability. However, this may tie into the unnecessary portions that Tatsuya spoke of."

"There was a time when longer casting times required certain defenses to avoid interference. Nevertheless, with the advent of CADs and the rise in casting speed for modern magic, individual counter spells have become obsolete if the magic that is being activated remains unknown. Thus, the real counter to modern magic doesn't lie in the type of magic, but counter magic that can eradicate its effectiveness in the first place."

<!-- Page 206 -->
Mikihiko made a small noise.

Amazingly, his smile was in no way self derogatory.

"Haha, so that's how it is...... Ancient Magic was supposed to possess superior firepower, but now they cannot stand against modern magic."
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by denormative »

MiY4Gi wrote:I don't fully understand what Tatsuya is saying in the second paragraph – particularly the bolded line. Can someone please clarify?

"......So you weren't joking when you said you can comprehend anything you could see. It is a variant of 'Thunder Child'. In order to hide the weakness of the technique, additional layers were added on to disguise the original ability. However, this may tie into the unnecessary portions that Tatsuya spoke of."

"There was a time when longer casting times required certain defenses to avoid interference. Nevertheless, with the advent of CADs and the rise in casting speed for modern magic, individual counter spells have become obsolete if the magic that is being activated remains unknown. Thus, the real counter to modern magic doesn't lie in the type of magic, but counter magic that can eradicate its effectiveness in the first place."

<!-- Page 206 -->
Mikihiko made a small noise.

Amazingly, his smile was in no way self derogatory.

"Haha, so that's how it is...... Ancient Magic was supposed to possess superior firepower, but now they cannot stand against modern magic."


It used to take a long time to cast magic. So you could watch what they were doing, recognise what they were about to cast, and prepare a counter spell that's designed to specifically target the weakness of the spell being cast. To counteract this they'd add in useless cruft that would confuse people into thinking they were using a non-standard magic, whereas it was actually a normal variant.

Nowadays with magic being cast by CADs, casting time is too fast, and reaction time is too slow, to recognise the spell, nor to prepare and cast a counter spell. However ancient magic still has this 'junk' in it, thus the comments from Tatsuya
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

Thanks.

And what is an "unbreathing machine"? I've only ever heard of a "breathing machine".

Without wandering around unnecessarily, he proceeded through the entrance of the hotel (of course, requiring bio-metric identification), and went straight to his room.

Before he entered, he realized at the door.

His roommates were unbreathing machines.

At this time of night, when he was confident the minute hand of the clock should be announcing a date change any time now, there shouldn't be any sign of life aside from him in the hallway – but he turned the key and walked inside regardless.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by Zeferion »

MiY4Gi wrote:
"Magic is a technique that involves changing phenomena and is not limited by conservation of energy. However, the object being rewritten remains bound by the law of conservation of energy. For example, if you apply Speed Magic to an object without using magic to maintain its condition, the accelerated object will turn cold; if you cast Heat Magic on a speeding object without using magic to maintain its velocity, then the target object will slow down. Generally, magic strives to avoid changing unrelated aspects by adding in abilities to maintain the status quo, so there's rarely an opportunity to observe this in action.

The laws of physics are very difficult to circumvent and, even when altered by illogical forces like magic, will attempt to revert back to a logical outcome. Thus, magic that does not break the law of conservation of energy remains a "natural" phenomenon and from a magic perspective, this requires a low interference strength.

You should understand by now, right? The magic used to accelerate the ice particles is based on "taking the projectile motion lost from creating ice particles and forging them into potential energy" and scamming the laws of physics. While this runs counter to the law of entropy and is something that would never occur in nature, but is a more logical explanation than simply constructing ice particles, accelerating the ice particles with magic, then applying thermodynamics."


I'm finding this explanation of the laws of physics Vs laws of magic very confusing, but then, I'm not even sure if it is supposed to make sense - I mean this is story about magic after all.

From what I understand, the laws of physics still hold, but magic can be used to bypass it, and the larger the change from what physics dictates, the more magic power (greater interference strength?) is needed. Therefore the most efficient use of magic would be where you use the laws of physics to achieve part of what you're aiming to do, and then use magic to achieve the rest.

What I don't get is why when you apply speed magic to a stationary object it get's colder, while when you apply heat magic to a moving object, it slows down.

When you speed up an object, it would get warmer due to friction, especially at sonic speed. Although, it would make sense if it was the thermal energy the object that was being converted to kinetic energy, so that it cools down when it speeds up.

And then, if you apply heat to a moving object, why would it slow down? Or is the "Heat magic" not really applying heat to the object, but simply causing the object to become hot on its own? Like, is it that the kinetic energy of the object is being converted to thermal energy, so that is slows down while it heats up?

Then there's Tatsuya's "simple explanation" in the last paragraph, which makes no sense to me, using my current understanding.


From what I understand, he's saying that when applying speed magic to a stationary object, the object's potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, aka the 'vibrational' energy of the particles(higher temp = larger amplitudes of vibrations). So, by converting the energy from the vibrations into kinetic energy, the particles have smaller amplitudes of vibrations, in other words, become colder. Similarly, the reverse can happen, converting kinetic energy into 'vibrational' energy, resulting in a deceleration of a object with heat magic cast on it.

In essence, what he is saying is that if the energy can come from somewhere in the system, the magic will try to conform to the laws of physics as much as possible.

MiY4Gi wrote:The magic used to accelerate the ice particles is based on "taking the projectile motion lost from creating ice particles and forging them into potential energy" and scamming the laws of physics.

Shouldn't it read as:


The magic used to accelerate the ice particles is based on "taking the thermal energy lost from creating the ice particles and converting it into kinetic energy" and scamming the laws of physics.



Only then it would make sense. And that also "counters the law of entropy" as Tatsuya stated, since according to entropy, kinetic energy of an object can spontaneously be converted to thermal energy (through friction), but thermal energy of an object cannot spontaneously be convert to kinetic energy.
[/quote]

You are correct as far as I can tell here. The line has also been edited by someone to make sense.

Currently it is'"The magic used to accelerate the ice particles is based on taking the heat that is removed from the frozen particles and converting it into the energy of projectile motion, thus scamming the laws of physics.""

MiY4Gi wrote:And what is an "unbreathing machine"? I've only ever heard of a "breathing machine".


As in he has no living roommates, in other words only machines that do not breathe are his roommates.

On another note, I came across a term in the japanese text in chapter 11 that I cannot translate.

...選手とエソヅニアはコスチューム (モノリス .コード 選手は防護服) と CAD...

The line transliterated is ""... ... senshu to esodzunia ha(wa) kosuchiyumu (monolith code senshu ha(wa) bogofuku) to CAD ... ...""

So I translated it as saying (mirage bat) contestants and their ''esodzunia'' costumes (Monolith code contestents and their protective gear) and their CAD...
What is esodzunia or エソヅニア in the original text? Google translate reveals nothing and googling the term results in some pages about japanese engineers.

Anyone have the slightest idea what it refers to? I'm assuming katakana means some loan word or english transliteration?
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by denormative »

Zeferion wrote:On another note, I came across a term in the japanese text in chapter 11 that I cannot translate.

...選手とエソヅニアはコスチューム (モノリス .コード 選手は防護服) と CAD...

The line transliterated is ""... ... senshu to esodzunia ha(wa) kosuchiyumu (monolith code senshu ha(wa) bogofuku) to CAD ... ...""

So I translated it as saying (mirage bat) contestants and their ''esodzunia'' costumes (Monolith code contestents and their protective gear) and their CAD...
What is esodzunia or エソヅニア in the original text? Google translate reveals nothing and googling the term results in some pages about japanese engineers.

Anyone have the slightest idea what it refers to? I'm assuming katakana means some loan word or english transliteration?

Eh? Isn't that "enjinia", as in "Engineer"? Your text does have エソヅニア rather then エンジニア, but I'm guessing that's a fault of the OCR software or something.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by Zeferion »

denormative wrote:
Zeferion wrote:On another note, I came across a term in the japanese text in chapter 11 that I cannot translate.

...選手とエソヅニアはコスチューム (モノリス .コード 選手は防護服) と CAD...

The line transliterated is ""... ... senshu to esodzunia ha(wa) kosuchiyumu (monolith code senshu ha(wa) bogofuku) to CAD ... ...""

So I translated it as saying (mirage bat) contestants and their ''esodzunia'' costumes (Monolith code contestents and their protective gear) and their CAD...
What is esodzunia or エソヅニア in the original text? Google translate reveals nothing and googling the term results in some pages about japanese engineers.

Anyone have the slightest idea what it refers to? I'm assuming katakana means some loan word or english transliteration?

Eh? Isn't that "enjinia", as in "Engineer"? Your text does have エソヅニア rather then エンジニア, but I'm guessing that's a fault of the OCR software or something.


Thanks a bunch, that was driving me nuts, courtesy of OCD, don't know why I never thought of that.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by denormative »

Zeferion wrote:
denormative wrote:Eh? Isn't that "enjinia", as in "Engineer"? Your text does have エソヅニア rather then エンジニア, but I'm guessing that's a fault of the OCR software or something.

Thanks a bunch, that was driving me nuts, courtesy of OCD, don't know why I never thought of that.

No problem. One of the few benefits of still being a newbie at this is that I still keep getting the n/so and ji/dzu characters mixed up, so I always have to double check those ones to see if it makes sense. :P That and I've never encountered a 'dzu'/'du' used before in an English imported Japanese word, so I always read it as 'ji', so even if it's 'esojinia' it stands out a bit more.
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by MiY4Gi »

Alright, I changed "unbreathing machines" to "non-breathing machines".

In chapter 8 vol 4, there's a line that I don't understand.

Tatsuya, who was at this moment receiving such unjust treatment from the athletes in their rival schools without any knowledge (obviously) after finishing a late lunch proceeded to the girls' Battle Board course.

Planned for the afternoon were the fourth to sixth races.

Honoka would appear in the sixth. If he only needed to keep his appointment with her, there should be no need to come so early.


What does "without any knowledge (obviously)" mean?
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Re: Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Names & Terminology

Post by denormative »

MiY4Gi wrote:
Tatsuya, who was at this moment receiving such unjust treatment from the athletes in their rival schools without any knowledge (obviously) after finishing a late lunch proceeded to the girls' Battle Board course.

Planned for the afternoon were the fourth to sixth races.

Honoka would appear in the sixth. If he only needed to keep his appointment with her, there should be no need to come so early.

What does "without any knowledge (obviously)" mean?

In the previous section (before the diamonds) Kichijouji and team are complaining about Tatsuya being, well, "overpowered". Given that Tatsuya is not there when they're complaining, he is "obviously" unable to have knowledge this is happening. I'm guessing the parenthetical "(obviously)" was there in the original to give a bit of sarcastic emphasis to the fact that whilst Tatsuya may be god-like, he isn't omniscient. Well, at least not yet. >.>
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