Mahouka Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (bunko spoilers)

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Mahouka Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (bunko spoilers)

Postby TheLaG » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 pm

This topic will be about Tatsuyas powers, past and many more 8)

- thread renamed (edited by larethian)

Spoiler tags are not needed in this thread.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby TheLaG » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:09 pm

2 larethian: not only spoilers :) BUT yeah, strongly preferable/recommended that you read MKnR before continuing here :)

Now some quote from old MKnR thread (link):
Haxton Fale wrote:If you think about it like that, then true - there are no limiters before him as his magic is on the level of wonders and can easily dispel probably any effect by interfering directly with Eidos. I doubt he'd be unable to remove any limiters set on him if they were more literal, and his obedience is simply a simple display of pragmatism (if he doesn't step out of the line, he's able to keep working as part of Taurus Silver, perform research and stay with Miyuki) and brotherly love.
He cannot be restrained literally, but there are other ways of influencing a person. I mean, think about it - what's stopping you from, say, murdering a passer-by? You probably have the capability to strangle a person, twist their neck or maybe stab them in the head or chest, should you happen to have a sharp/pointy item on you. You won't, because consequences will outweigh any benefits, assuming there are any.


About his other "limiters", don't forget they have Yotsuba Maya which set few of limiters for Tatsuya, like his past and connection to Yotsuba must remain hidden. Also, few limiters are from military, also, he may really have few more magical limiters, and it's not that he cannot remove them by himself, it's more like he is not allowed to do so :) Next, limiters like "don't kill" are useless against Tatsuya, he is coldblooded and logical, so if he needs, he will kill... And from here, the main limiter is Miyuki, because only for her Tatsuya have strong emotions, and he can be controlled trough her.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Haxton Fale » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:33 am

TheLaG wrote:About his other "limiters", don't forget they have Yotsuba Maya which set few of limiters for Tatsuya, like his past and connection to Yotsuba must remain hidden. Also, few limiters are from military, also, he may really have few more magical limiters, and it's not that he cannot remove them by himself, it's more like he is not allowed to do so :) Next, limiters like "don't kill" are useless against Tatsuya, he is coldblooded and logical, so if he needs, he will kill... And from here, the main limiter is Miyuki, because only for her Tatsuya have strong emotions, and he can be controlled trough her.

In Tatsuya's case every limiter is an agreement, I assume. It's probably not impossible for him to "unrestrain" himself and go on a rampage if he really wanted, because he has the capability and knowledge to do so. It's just that the consequences of such actions (turning the army and/or Yotsubas against himself) surely outweigh whatever he would have gained. Especially since he knows the power of the Yotsubas.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby ananda » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:36 am

I wonder how much of a limiter the Third Eye CAD is. The military is taking some serious steps to keep it away from Tatsuya (it is locked with "a card key, blood pattern verification, password, and voice-print verification"), so presumably he cannot utilize the full extent of his power without it and they regard it as an important safeguard. But how much does he has access to without it? I got the impression (maybe false) that the CAD is mainly for providing pin-point accuracy, more so that Tatsuya don't blow up a large chunk of the country by accident than to limit his power. Furthermore, if he really put his mind into it, don't you think he would be able to recreate it in his lab? After all, he single-handedly performed cutting edge research that no one else could dream of, so something like that may not even be an obstacle at all. I guess he would have trouble hacking the satellites or cameras to connect to the Third Eye that way if Fujibayashi is opposing him, though.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Joko » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:37 am

random question,

so in in this world, tatsuya is the only one that can do Disintegration magic ?
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Haxton Fale » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:50 am

@up:
This seems the most likely. He's a natural-born specialist in outer-systematic magic who has problems using the systematic magic (originally he was unable to do so). Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that there is another magician able to use disintegration, but it's unlikely they will reach Tatsuya's level of mastery without it being a skill they were born with. After all, Tatsuya also mastered direct manipulation to Eidos.

@ananda:
As you already noted, Tatsuya is able to perform incredible feats of CAD design, so I don't suppose a device to support this particular magic procedure is the main point of Third Eye.
The name implies that this CAD's main purpose is to help him aim over long distances - there must be limits to his information manipulation magic, plus I'm sure the combination of his "sixth sense" with at least visual information greatly improves the accuracy, if not also efficiency of his casting. For shorter range effects, he should be able to build a rifle without satellite uplink to help him aim. Or so I believe.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Ehsan » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:48 am

well there is one thing that's bugging me why do Yotsuba fear tatsuya so much.If it's about that that tatsuya will destory Yotsuba for erasing his emotion from him then i know tatsuya doesn't have any strong emotions like hatred,envy or angry.. :?
so how will he harm Yotsuba if he can't even make himself angry?
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby TheLaG » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:43 pm

Ehsan wrote:well there is one thing that's bugging me why do Yotsuba fear tatsuya so much.If it's about that that tatsuya will destory Yotsuba for erasing his emotion from him then i know tatsuya doesn't have any strong emotions like hatred,envy or angry.. :?
so how will he harm Yotsuba if he can't even make himself angry?


You already answered the question, Tatsuya don't have strong connections to Yotsuba, and that means he can leave family easily, he already don't consider himself as Yotsuba, so considering what he knows and his power levels, it's impossible that Yotsuba would want to lose him, even from the point of information, he knows to much! Second problem, Yotsuba don't have firepower to take Tatsuya out if it is needed, so the fear of him is deepened :)

Also there is such thing as master family balance (it is in favor of Yotsuba), but any family which Tatsuya joins, will become master clan or be on top of every other family, he is to unbalanced...
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Kadzu » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:01 pm

Ehsan wrote:well there is one thing that's bugging me why do Yotsuba fear tatsuya so much.If it's about that that tatsuya will destory Yotsuba for erasing his emotion from him then i know tatsuya doesn't have any strong emotions like hatred,envy or angry.. :?
so how will he harm Yotsuba if he can't even make himself angry?


I can think of some reasons:
- Tatsuya`s mass convert into energy magic together with third eye makes him too powerful , other countries and powerful enemies(so powerful that it wold be too much for the Yotsuba to handle) would start targeting him because of that and the Yotsuba might get involved in that, which they don`t wish to.
- The correct definition of a "talented" magician is "To be able to cast relatively high level magic which alters the eidos" , you could say that the society was built giving privileges to the "talented" because they would a prevail against "not talented" magicians almost all the time. Even though Tatsuya is able to instant cast magics that alter the eidos,he can only cast the low-level ones,he cant cast high-level ones so technically speaking hes "not talented",yet hes probably stronger than anyone in the Yotsuba which is one of the ten families.Its like Tatsuya`s existence itself is a threat to the current system.
-They might also be afraid that he comes to the conclusion : "The Yotsuba is a burden/threat to Myuki`s life/happiness" or something similar .
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Haxton Fale » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:23 pm

I wouldn't be so sure about them not having enough firepower to restrain Tatsuya. For starters, they know his ability (though Lord knows how many aces is he hiding up his sleeve) so they can take his natural enemy - Juumonji Katsuto - against him. Katsuto is the next Juumonji family head, so he ought to know about Yotsubas and their influence, and there's no need to reveal the connection Tatsuya has with Yotsubas. So they have some leverage against Tatsuya himself, and that's without having to resort to military (ie. Tatsuya's unit). Of course, that doesn't mean Tatsuya will be taken down. He's a very skilled fighter, as well as tinkerer/engineer with particularly destructive form of magic and insane regenerative ability. I suppose even for Katsuto the fight wouldn't be trivial.
But that's just a single magician. Yotsubas have a small army of extremely capable soldiers (Guardians are basically soldiers with their extensive combat skills and dedication), and that's just one of Ten Master Clans. With the influence they have, making Tatsuya the enemy of the state would pose no problem at all, and then they get Ten Master Clans involved, as well as the Hundred Families. Tatsuya's unit knows his expertise and could probably devise a few ways of countering his magic.
There are also less forceful leverages - Miyuki is still very loyal to her family and Tatsuya wouldn't go against her wishes. That gives Maya huge influence over siblings, especially if you consider recent events from the novel, when she chose to speak to him personally, indirectly acknowledging him as a member of Yotsubas, or at least a person worthy personal audience with Yotsuba family head. I'm fairly certain she was forced into that decision, as to not let Miyuki know about Material Burst, Tatsuya's involvement in the explosion and its consequences, but she could have chosen a less direct way. Of course, Tatsuya himself thinks nothing of it, most likely, but Miyuki might have seen the implications of Maya's actions.

I'm actually curious why would you think that Yotsubas would fear Tatsuya. His magic is powerful, but not omnipotent, his skills strong, but not unbeatable. He's in no position to be feared, being a high school student (and hence having some sort of image to maintain) as well as military subordinate. He has no ambition to take over the Yotsuba family and is easily controllable through Miyuki.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Kadzu » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 pm

You are assuming that Tatsuya will engage into a fight,thats wrong,if the 10 families became his enemies,he would just destroy all of their headquarters without even give than an opportunity to start a combat.

And the Yotsuba cant make Tatsuya an enemy of the state whenever they wish to because hes a strategic class magician who could easily destroy a country if he wants to(in theory),the state would always wish to have him by their side unless Tatsuya himself started to become a threat to the state.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Haxton Fale » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:17 pm

Levelling a country is no trifling matter. While Tatsuya could technically annihilate half of the planet (or heck, destroy it whole), not only he'd be ridding himself of a place to live, but also would make him an international threat. I doubt many countries would be willing to take in a magician capable of destroying his own homeland. He's a strategic weapon - he's used as a last resort in pushing situations, like facing an attack of an invasion fleet.
That, and a strategic class magician with no exploitable weaknesses, such as Tatsuya who chose to sever his connections with Yotsubas, does sound pretty dangerous if you ask me - his motivation might sway towards whoever provides the best conditions to whatever his agenda might be, that doesn't sound too favourable to Japanese government, or any government for that matter. And being an enemy of any state means no access to cutting edge magical technology research.
Sure, if you think about it, strategic class magicians have enough power to level a country each, or at least would be able to successfully escape anything set against them. The key is not to make it impossible, but impractical.

Regarding headquarters - I believe the system is rather decentralized, and should the head of a family fall, a new would be chosen in their place, should a Master Clan fall, a new will be chosen to replace it. Besides, infiltration of an enemy magicians' fortress doesn't seem like Tatsuya's forte. While path of total destruction is possible for Tatsuya, it's very unlikely that he will turn towards it, because he has no business doing that.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby sinnershot67 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:50 pm

Joko wrote:random question,

so in in this world, tatsuya is the only one that can do Disintegration magic ?


No. What makes Tatsuya's disintegration magic is that he's taken it to the extreme level that no one can match him in that aspect.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Gohankuten » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:48 pm

Haxton Fale wrote:There are also less forceful leverages - Miyuki is still very loyal to her family and Tatsuya wouldn't go against her wishes. That gives Maya huge influence over siblings, especially if you consider recent events from the novel, when she chose to speak to him personally, indirectly acknowledging him as a member of Yotsubas, or at least a person worthy personal audience with Yotsuba family head. I'm fairly certain she was forced into that decision, as to not let Miyuki know about Material Burst, Tatsuya's involvement in the explosion and its consequences, but she could have chosen a less direct way. Of course, Tatsuya himself thinks nothing of it, most likely, but Miyuki might have seen the implications of Maya's actions.

I'm actually curious why would you think that Yotsubas would fear Tatsuya. His magic is powerful, but not omnipotent, his skills strong, but not unbeatable. He's in no position to be feared, being a high school student (and hence having some sort of image to maintain) as well as military subordinate. He has no ambition to take over the Yotsuba family and is easily controllable through Miyuki.

Actually Miyuki is even more loyal to Tatsuya than to the Yotsuba and actually dislikes the Yotsuba due to what they did to Tatsuya regarding his emotions. If she felt it was in the best interest for Tatsuya she would turn against the Yotsuba.
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Re: Character Discussion: Shiba Tatsuya (spoilers aplenty)

Postby Ehsan » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:53 pm

well technically speaking tatsuya is nothing more than a pawn of Yotsuba who can be use through Miyuki? :? :?
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