So, Incest ending impossibru?

[Lost]

Psion Count it's like max mana in rpg game's, it doesn't add directly to your power, bit it make difference in long fights and in usage of big spell's. we see that perfectly in fairy dance, only Miyuki could last all round's.

it's true it might not have direct impact on power of spell, casting speed or spell size, but still it should be important since it limits max number of spells. But calculation skills should also be evaluated (like in kubera magic test) since a lot of spells need user to input calculated data. only question is how common this is in this world since only Tatsuya showed that it could be important.

and than there is Gram Demolition which is special case since you need extreme Psion Count.

[Wszaman]

I feel like Mayumi is on the best way to, end with Tatsuya. She has best strategy(?) for him, by acting as "big sis Mayumi" from the start. Tatsuya is only able to feel brotherly love for Miyuki, but since he is able to feel it, it could be possible to create simmilar feeling for Mayumi if she reinforce her "older sister" impression in his mind (it would be incest on mental level for Tatsuya but the only way for hm, to show love). Mayumi also shown ability, to read Tatsuya emotions, and to make him smile. She shows her concern for him, even while suspecting him to be not only extra, but from Yotsuba. Miyuki would be jelous, but I think that if Tatsuya actually gained chance to have normal relationship, she would be happy. My guess is, big part of her jelousy, is that Tatsuya can only love her, so any other relationship than that, would be painfull for him, at least in her eyes:

Spoiler! :

Like when he, during Valentines, felt bad, that he can only give Honoka material gift, and not return feelings

Spoiler! :

Actually, there is posibility of comedy ending, with Tatsuya and Pixi (mechanical maid, infected with Parasite, which copied Honoka feelings for him). Human with machine-like mind x machine with human emotions. He could express his affection with his technical skills (which is his passion).

Honoka is worst possible choice. She will love him, think how she love him, smile at him, and then she will die at ripe age of 92; since she lacks strong personality to take a lead (it may sound bad, but Tatsuya needs a bit Yandere-like girl, that would constantly invade his comfort zone, since he won't initiate anything from his side and even if he would, it would be only superficial "because I should do that in this sittuation"). She also lacks mental fortitude for the day, when all stuff about Tatsuya will come to light: Yotsuba guardian, Taurus Silver, Strategic Magician (his kill-count is in tens of thousands) and full story about mind alteration (I mean his own mother did that with green light from the rest, to marry into such family is scary as hell).

[crisisavatar]

Tatsuya is not retarded lol, just because Mayumi acts like "an older sister" doesn't mean he will accept that =p

[Niflheim]

I feel like Mayumi is on the best way to, end with Tatsuya. She has best strategy(?) for him, by acting as "big sis Mayumi" from the start. Tatsuya is only able to feel brotherly love for Miyuki, but since he is able to feel it, it could be possible to create simmilar feeling for Mayumi if she reinforce her "older sister" impression in his mind (it would be incest on mental level for Tatsuya but the only way for hm, to show love). Mayumi also shown ability, to read Tatsuya emotions, and to make him smile. She shows her concern for him, even while suspecting him to be not only extra, but from Yotsuba. Miyuki would be jelous, but I think that if Tatsuya actually gained chance to have normal relationship, she would be happy. My guess is, big part of her jelousy, is that Tatsuya can only love her, so any other relationship than that, would be painfull for him, at least in her eyes:

My oh my, a small conversation about how it could feel to have a little brother followed by an even smaller joke about being the big sister turns into her master plan... Mayumi is the oldest daughter of the head of one of the strongest families within the Ten Master Clans, sadly anything but an arranged marriage on her part is out of the question.

Honoka is worst possible choice. She will love him, think how she love him, smile at him, and then she will die at ripe age of 92; since she lacks strong personality to take a lead (it may sound bad, but Tatsuya needs a bit Yandere-like girl, that would constantly invade his comfort zone, since he won't initiate anything from his side and even if he would, it would be only superficial "because I should do that in this sittuation"). She also lacks mental fortitude for the day, when all stuff about Tatsuya will come to light: Yotsuba guardian, Taurus Silver, Strategic Magician (his kill-count is in tens of thousands) and full story about mind alteration (I mean his own mother did that with green light from the rest, to marry into such family is scary as hell).

I'd like you to go and re read the interactions between Honoka and Tatsuya as well as the sections with her own thoughts. Give it all a good thinker, read what you wrote and if you still hold the same skewed view I'll bite.

[SinsI]

Don't forget that magicians are the thoroughbreds of MKnR's world.
And Inbreeding is used by breeders of domestic animals to fix desirable genetic traits within a population...

What trait can be more desirable than the ability to resurrect people, coupled with nuclear-level destructive ability and cheating level of information processing?

Incest is not only "possibru" - if Tatsuya and Miyuki survive all the troubles coming their way, they are certain to become husband and wife (or at least mistress and her male concubine).

[Niflheim]

Don't forget that magicians are the thoroughbreds of MKnR's world.
And Inbreeding is used by breeders of domestic animals to fix desirable genetic traits within a population...

What trait can be more desirable than the ability to resurrect people, coupled with nuclear-level destructive ability and cheating level of information processing?

Incest is not only "possibru" - if Tatsuya and Miyuki survive all the troubles coming their way, they are certain to become husband and wife (or at least mistress and her male concubine).

Man, this series seem to bring out the worst in people. Not only calling Tatsuya a psychopath or a sociopath in the other thread now we get this.

**
It is true that magicians are the royalty of this world, however that doesnt mean they will practice the old ways of royalty when it comes to marriages. And put a side certain examples first cousins are historicly the closest you got for old european royalty (and then even that wasnt that common), there is like 1 example of a sister-brother marriage. You will need to go back to ancient egypt to find this being anything close to the norm, when it was practiced simply to keep the blood "pure". You can look up Ptolemaic dynasty.

You should go and read whats said about how magic powers are inherited, the children don't inherit the exact powers. Strong parents only increase the chance of a strong child power wise, thier abilities will stay with in the same magic family but won't be exact copies. This is explained when it is described how Miyuki can limit Tatsuya. And do not forget that Tatsuya is a fake with zero power as child, so strong parents can turn up with failures like that as well.

Feel free to wish/hope for a incest ending if that is your cup of tea, but please don't try and pass your clear opinion on the subject as "hard facts"

[SinsI]

Man, this series seem to bring out the worst in people. Not only calling Tatsuya a psychopath or a sociopath in the other thread now we get this.

The series itself is pretty dark - Tatsuya's aunt was raped and when killed (in a sense) by her own sister, his mother and sister were killed, the Guardian of his mother was a specifically bred and altered human, his father had to abandon his loved wife and marry Tatsuya's mother, etc. Lots of his classmates and their ancestors are also victims of eugenics programs and modifications.

You should go and read what's said about how magic powers are inherited, the children don't inherit the exact powers.

I think normal genetic laws apply, with all the chances and variability they give. You won't get the same powers in his children, but by inbreeding you can make at least some of his grandchildren and grand-grandchildren to have the same or similar set of abilities.

A Magician's ability was heavily influenced by genetics.

Due to the connection between magic and national power, each country jealously guarded its magic bloodlines and either officially or unofficially forbade international marriages between Magicians. (This country that superficially allowed freedom of marriage belonged in the "unofficial" category.)

Yet, in the generation of Tatsuya's grandparents, allied countries actively encouraged international marriages between Magicians. The goal was to "cross" "excellent stock" to "develop" superior Magicians.

Granted, to select exactly his traits, the incest in question should be something like Tatsuya x his daughters and Tatsuya x his granddaughters, not specifically Tatsuya x Miyuki.

If they want to make the most of it, it makes sense to have Tatsuya court every single female magician around him (plus some of his cousins) - so a Harem ending is not impossible, either.

BTW, I think Maya and Miya were not a monozygote twins, as they had completely different abilities.

[Niflheim]

Man, this series seem to bring out the worst in people. Not only calling Tatsuya a psychopath or a sociopath in the other thread now we get this.

The series itself is pretty dark - Tatsuya's aunt was raped and when killed (in a sense) by her own sister, his mother and sister were killed, the Guardian of his mother was a specifically bred and altered human, his father had to abandon his loved wife and marry Tatsuya's mother, etc. Lots of his classmates and their ancestors are also victims of eugenics programs and modifications.

To be honest, I don't find this series dark or close to it. Sure it got it's dark corners, but hardly any series is through and through happy-go-lucky. It wasn't the tone of the setting I was refering to anyway. Whats basicly sought after in this thread is simply is Miyuki going to be his girl in the end out all the ones around him. It doesnt really go past that, which your original post brought it, with the inbreeding aso.

And for refrence sake, Shingeki no Kyojin is something I find dark. Boils down to personal opinion as so much do.

You should go and read what's said about how magic powers are inherited, the children don't inherit the exact powers.

I think normal genetic laws apply, with all the chances and variability they give. You won't get the same powers in his children, but by inbreeding you can make at least some of his grandchildren and grand-grandchildren to have the same or similar set of abilities.

If you want to look at genetics and inbreeding with humans, google 'Habsburg lip'. The result of human inbreeding, it gets worst with each generation. However since this is a fantasy world, with some rules established as certainties. Miyuki got a strong affinity to magic, Tatsuya got such weak affinity his own mother calls him an utter failure. He still is of Yotsuba blood, but that heritage is also the only thing he got going.

If they want to make the most of it, it makes sense to have Tatsuya court every single female magician around him (plus some of his cousins) - so a Harem ending is not impossible, either.

BTW, I think Maya and Miya were not a monozygote twins, as they had completely different abilities.

What harem? Sure he got girls all around him, but only two has shown love or strong affection for him. Not much of a harem there, specially with one of them denied already. Unless you wanna change the entier purpose of the series to be about how to generate an offspring with Tatsuyas powers this is a little ludicrous.

What type of twins Maya and Miya are/were isn't relevant, we know the Yotsuba don't have a type of family specific magic, they just obtain extreamly powerfull types regardless of magic familiy.

[SinsI]

If you want to look at genetics and inbreeding with humans, google 'Habsburg lip'. The result of human inbreeding, it gets worst with each generation.

That's a classic example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
But there are many known cases of inbreeding actually helping limited-sized communities through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_purging

It gets really messy if we add even current level of genetic engineering into the equation (not to mention the level it should reach 80 years into the future).

However since this is a fantasy world, with some rules established as certainties. Miyuki got a strong affinity to magic, Tatsuya got such weak affinity his own mother calls him an utter failure. He still is of Yotsuba blood, but that heritage is also the only thing he got going.

Tatsuya has overwhelmingly strong affinity! The problem is, he had no "flexibility", being a Born Specialized mage.
It's the same with General CAD's and Specialized CAD's. One is an FPGA, allowing to reprogram it to perform many functions - the other is an ASIC, much faster but with far lesser flexibility. His mother changed some of his non-magic-processing parts of brain (responsible for emotion) into an artificial calculation zone - and understandably failed to make that part strong.

What harem? Sure he got girls all around him, but only two has shown love or strong affection for him. Not much of a harem there, specially with one of them denied already. Unless you wanna change the entier purpose of the series to be about how to generate an offspring with Tatsuyas powers this is a little ludicrous.

Not many are brave enough to face their own feelings (i.e. Mayumi) or the wrath of jealous Miyuki. Out of all the girls and women around him, I'd right away eliminate only Kanon and Maya from the love dodecahedron (first one has a fiancee, second one is infertile).

What type of twins Maya and Miya are/were isn't relevant, we know the Yotsuba don't have a type of family specific magic, they just obtain extreamly powerfull types regardless of magic familiy.

No, Yotsuba is a mix of two lines: one with a strong matter manipulation magic (with Tatsuya reaching the pinnacle, and Maya taking the second place), the other with strong mind manipulation magic (Miya and Miyuki).

[Sashiko]

SinsI wrote:

No, Yotsuba is a mix of two lines: one with a strong matter manipulation magic (with Tatsuya reaching the pinnacle, and Maya taking the second place), the other with strong mind manipulation magic (Miya and Miyuki).

However the admittedly rough translation in Untouchable is:

The "Yotsuba" produced as a result inevitably descended from two types of magician lineages. One were those born with a mind manipulation ability that was strengthened. The other were those whose magic calculation areas were warped by a strong power.

Naturally, you are free to do a better translation of that section but, if you do will you please update the translation on the web, thank you.

Sashiko

P. S. As for Incest--Tatsuya feelings of love for Miyuki were frozen well before Puberty and although Miyuki was encouraged to think of him as just another boy instead of her brother, Tatsuya has always thought of her as his little sister so, Tatsuya doesn't have romantic feelings for Miyuki.

[seitsuki]

We'll see about that. In the end, Tatsuya just wants to make Miyuki happy. Will he have the power to resist a full dere appeal from his dearest imouto if she should finally inevitably crack? Does anyone have that sort of mental fortitude? No I didn't think so.

[The_Great_Galendo]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading the same story that everyone else is. I can't quite get over how many people here seem to be completely convinced that Tatsuya and Miyuki are actually siblings, when it's pretty clear to me that the author is leaving the issue open enough to jump either way (my money's on a not-really-siblings Tatsuya/Miyuki ending eventually).

There are a number of reasons to support either interpretation, all of them reasonably discreditable, so I can't blame anyone for deciding the evidence weighs more heavily on one side than the other. That being said, I'll leave you with one piece of physical evidence on the not-siblings side that I'll bet most people here haven't thought of.

It's incredibly rare for two non-twin siblings to be born to the same mother within a year of each other.

Now, it's obviously physically possible for that to happen, but it's not at all likely. Seriously, think of all your siblings, all your cousins, all your aunts and uncles -- I'm willing to bet that absolutely none of them were born within a year of each other. Think of all your friends' siblings, all their relations -- I'll bet it's the same story. The female body really isn't set up for back-to-back pregnancies like that, and even if the mother doesn't breast feed her baby at all, it still seems unlikely that she'd get pregnant again only three months after giving birth (and that assumes that Miyuki was born a month early).

Again, it's not technically impossible, and it could be pretty easily dismissed in-story (maybe it turns out that they're actually farther apart, but it was more convenient for the Yotsuba to fudge a few records and have them in the same grade) -- but it turns out that pretty much every piece of evidence can be brushed off in a similar manner. Like I said, it's pretty clear to me that they author's leaving the issue open for adjustment at any time.

[Niflheim]

That's a classic example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression
But there are many known cases of inbreeding actually helping limited-sized communities through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_purging

It gets really messy if we add even current level of genetic engineering into the equation (not to mention the level it should reach 80 years into the future).

You are going to great lengths with this, I'll give you that, but resting on theory used on a limited-sized community when we are looking at brother-sister? And for the sake of argument stay within current time, for all we know we can have Gundam SEED level of genetic engineering in 80 years and then this is all void, but we don't so if you wanna keep on going with this you'll need to stick to actual facts I guess.

Tatsuya has overwhelmingly strong affinity! The problem is, he had no "flexibility", being a Born Specialized mage.
It's the same with General CAD's and Specialized CAD's. One is an FPGA, allowing to reprogram it to perform many functions - the other is an ASIC, much faster but with far lesser flexibility. His mother changed some of his non-magic-processing parts of brain (responsible for emotion) into an artificial calculation zone - and understandably failed to make that part strong.

Don't confuse power with affinity. There was a profound reason for using affinity here and not power.

"Magic are the techniques which modify Information bodies, and thus change phenomena. However trivial the change is, to be able to make the change at all is magic. But Tatsuya is unable to do that. All he can do is break an Information Body down, and recreate it back in an earlier state. That is not magic in its truest sense. That child, who was born without the talent to use magic in the true sense of the term in altering Information Bodies, is unquestionably a defective magician."

Thoes with a strong affinity for magic would be the likes of Miyuki and Mayumi, they also hold great power. Tatsuya only holds great power. Even Miyuki agree, or at least unable to refute, that the power he has isnt really magic. Granted that could be the mind of a 11-12 year old not able to refuse her mothers train of thought.

Not many are brave enough to face their own feelings (i.e. Mayumi) or the wrath of jealous Miyuki. Out of all the girls and women around him, I'd right away eliminate only Kanon and Maya from the love dodecahedron (first one has a fiancee, second one is infertile).

I'll knock out the female cast for you, based on how it stands now. Honoka denied despite being the one honest with her feelings. Mayumi, not realised her own feelings yet (to where I've read anyway). Shizuku, aside from him as a hired CAD tech we know nothing. Mizuki, mighty as well make in offical that she and Mikihiko are infact dating. Erika, despite there seemed to have been some potential at first anything but Leo would seem odd to me at this point. Mari, dating Nao. Kanon, like you said engaged with Isori. Suzune, would be a world class curveball. Azusa , unless it is CAD related she hardly interacts with him atm. Sayaka, loving boyfriend.

Won't be some wrath of Miyuki, she admits she will be jealous but at the same time that she won't stand in the way.

No, Yotsuba is a mix of two lines: one with a strong matter manipulation magic (with Tatsuya reaching the pinnacle, and Maya taking the second place), the other with strong mind manipulation magic (Miya and Miyuki).

Admittedly badly worded by me but Sashiko to the rescue (most likely not intended though).

[Niflheim]

Mods, sorry for double posting but want to avoid messing up two convos.
***

Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading the same story that everyone else is. I can't quite get over how many people here seem to be completely convinced that Tatsuya and Miyuki are actually siblings, when it's pretty clear to me that the author is leaving the issue open enough to jump either way (my money's on a not-really-siblings Tatsuya/Miyuki ending eventually).

Well when you got information from the novels as this quote,

"As I was saying... Onii-sama and I are true siblings. Or at least that's what it says on the records, and DNA tests have always confirmed that relation."

it doesnt leave much room for speculation. Regardless of how rare it might be with a year/less than a year between births. I truely welcome you to debunk DNA tests that the author meantion. The way Miyuki phrased it indicates, at least to me, that thier sibling status has been questioned within the novel world at an earlier point to such an extent that DNA tests were needed.

[Gohankuten]

Mods, sorry for double posting but want to avoid messing up two convos.
***

Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading the same story that everyone else is. I can't quite get over how many people here seem to be completely convinced that Tatsuya and Miyuki are actually siblings, when it's pretty clear to me that the author is leaving the issue open enough to jump either way (my money's on a not-really-siblings Tatsuya/Miyuki ending eventually).

Well when you got information from the novels as this quote,

"As I was saying... Onii-sama and I are true siblings. Or at least that's what it says on the records, and DNA tests have always confirmed that relation."

it doesnt leave much room for speculation. Regardless of how rare it might be with a year/less than a year between births. I truely welcome you to debunk DNA tests that the author meantion. The way Miyuki phrased it indicates, at least to me, that thier sibling status has been questioned within the novel world at an earlier point to such an extent that DNA tests were needed.

Though there is still the possibility that the Yotsuba faked the DNA tests but still very little room to doubt that they are blood related.