So, Incest ending impossibru?

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Gohankuten
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Gohankuten »

You got the wrong volume. Was in v11. Anyway
Spoiler! :
Miyuki explicitly stated in her monologue she would never let anyone aside from Tatsuya touch her because her body and heart belong only to Tatsuya
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by NewAgeOfPower »

Gohankuten wrote:You got the wrong volume. Was in v11. Anyway
Spoiler! :
Miyuki explicitly stated in her monologue she would never let anyone aside from Tatsuya touch her because her body and heart belong only to Tatsuya


Thanks, fixed that; also.

I remember her stating that.

Spoiler! :
Its just she admit's she'll also be forced to marry someone else in v12
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Lucarion02 »

Niflheim wrote:That wasn't very much really. Since his entire theory hinged on one claim that he could not substantiate it didnt really need much. Had I gone all out you would have been greeted by a massive wall of text full of quotes :P

Just look at the part of where he named magic Miyuki uses. Inferno is a no brainer of what it is mythology wise. Niflheim however isnt where the dead go in norse mythology, not until later after the creation. In norse mythology the way you died and the choice of Odin decided where you went in the afterlife. So while on one level he is sort of right he is at the same time wrong for making such a simple destinction that once dead you end up in Niflheim. Cocytus isn't either the final destination in greek mythology, it is just 1 of the 5 rivers around hades with Styx being the famous one. This gets even more complicated when you consider the name Miya earned which is one of the other rivers as well, Mistress of Lethe.

I don't doubt that on some level Tatsuya is modeled after Shiva, the name given to him by the great asian alliance is Mahesvara and if i recall correct that is what Shiva is called in some buddhist work. But I won't do some great logical leap to imply all aspects of the deity Shiva will be incoperated into the character Tatsuya and that is simply because the entier mythology around Shiva is so complex even within hinduism.

His second post is even more depended on that his initial theory is correct. It also mixes up and embellishing around Parvati and Sati.

Going to climb down the walls now.
To be honest the more of these theories I work my way through the more I start to believe that the hinting of more than a sibling relationship is just a cheap ploy and bait, bloody brilliant one too, to instigate these types of theories to just get more readers one way or another.



Might as well join in the discussion.

First off, I'm the guy who wrote that theory post, and two---you're completely right!

But then again that was just me throwing everything that was cooking inside my head for some time into one long ramble. I also never said wasn't fanboying. What I did was total fanboying. It was pretty obvious. The bit about the "mathematical beauty" crap was just me adding a nice little cherry on top of my pile of fanrave--it was total overkill. All I said was that I wasn't "just" fanboying because the similarities I found were a little too numerous to be coincidental, and it wasn't the Shiva part--everybody knew that even before I even got around to reading the novels, and at first I thought it was just a nice little character motif used for some extra awesome...until I read Shiva's wiki and some random stories about the two gods around the web. (Along with a few Indian pictures books in the local bookstore). Whatever information I got was only found by scrounging about the net, my old mythology books--trying to find anything to strengthen the theory that Mahouka's possible wincest subplot might be closely following Shiva's love story.

Now so let's get around to Shiva being the Supreme God of the Hindu Trinity and the fact that there are some branches of the faith that dispute this. This should be irrelevant to us because we're fans of the LN. Anything that doesn't have anything to do with the LN shouldn't matter, because its Mahouka we like, and I'm guessing most of us in the fandom aren't practicing Hindus. Also, because this is an LN--something we read primarily to entertain ourselves--the author probably didn't go too deep into the subject: he just needed something really cool to possibly give him some inspiration and Shiva fit what he was looking for. He did some research, formed a general narrative from what he could find, and tied it to his own story and rewrote the scenes and some of the character relationships he really liked into his story's context. Mario Puzo did the same thing with the Borgias for his Godfather series.

As for why I felt the need to say the obvious: Inferno, Niflheim, Cocytus. Well, I was just trying to make a point. These are all places associated with death and not everyone is into mythology. Yes, not all the dead go to Niflheim--some of them are chosen for Valhalla; yes, Inferno and Cocytus are obvious if you know your Dante and your Greek Underworld. However; the death connection needn't be so deep. Again, like with Tatsuya and Shiva, all the author needed was to create an effect; all he needed was something cool to use for the names of his main heroine's techniques. It doesn't matter that some of Norse dead ended up in Valhalla--some of them ended up in Niflheim. The author got what he needed. Something which suits Miyuki's brand of powers, and create the "Goddess of Death" or the "Imperial Snow Queen" vibe he wanted for her--and it was good enough, that's all we need to know. Her being a "Death Goddess" also ties to her identity as a Yotsuba; the entire clan is very closely tied with death symbols: 4, crows(Kuroba), ninjas, assassination, "Grim Reaper", "Mistress of Lethe", Demon King of the Far East. Add in the Shiba siblings' "Snow Queen", and "Mahesvara"/"Obsidian Demon" titles and I think we can safely say the author is trying to imply something here.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Borderose »

Niflheim wrote:That wasn't very much really. Since his entire theory hinged on one claim that he could not substantiate it didnt really need much. Had I gone all out you would have been greeted by a massive wall of text full of quotes :P

Just look at the part of where he named magic Miyuki uses. Inferno is a no brainer of what it is mythology wise. Niflheim however isnt where the dead go in norse mythology, not until later after the creation. In norse mythology the way you died and the choice of Odin decided where you went in the afterlife. So while on one level he is sort of right he is at the same time wrong for making such a simple destinction that once dead you end up in Niflheim. Cocytus isn't either the final destination in greek mythology, it is just 1 of the 5 rivers around hades with Styx being the famous one. This gets even more complicated when you consider the name Miya earned which is one of the other rivers as well, Mistress of Lethe.

I don't doubt that on some level Tatsuya is modeled after Shiva, the name given to him by the great asian alliance is Mahesvara and if i recall correct that is what Shiva is called in some buddhist work. But I won't do some great logical leap to imply all aspects of the deity Shiva will be incoperated into the character Tatsuya and that is simply because the entier mythology around Shiva is so complex even within hinduism.

His second post is even more depended on that his initial theory is correct. It also mixes up and embellishing around Parvati and Sati.

Going to climb down the walls now.
To be honest the more of these theories I work my way through the more I start to believe that the hinting of more than a sibling relationship is just a cheap ploy and bait, bloody brilliant one too, to instigate these types of theories to just get more readers one way or another.



First off, I'm the guy who wrote that theory post, and two---you're completely right!

But then again that was just me throwing everything that was cooking inside my head for some time into one long ramble. It was really just me geeking out. I also never said I wasn't fanboying. What I did was total fanboying. It was pretty obvious. All I said was that I wasn't "just" fanboying because the similarities I found were a little too numerous to be coincidental. And it wasn't the Shiva part. Everybody knew that even before I even got around to reading the novels, and at first I thought it was just a nice little character motif used for some extra awesome...until I read Shiva's wiki and some random stories about the two gods around the web. (Along with a few Indian pictures books in the local bookstore). Whatever information I got was only found by scrounging about the net and my old mythology books--trying to find anything to strengthen the theory that Mahouka's possible wincest subplot might be closely following Shiva's love story.( The bit about the "mathematical beauty" crap was just me adding a nice little cherry on top of my pile of fanrave--it was total overkill. I knew. But I didn't really care. It was something I had in my head and I released it. The post isn't even that well organized as I basically copy-pasted past conversations I had with people on the subject and edited it to form something that resembles something cohesive instead of the Frankenstein of ideas that it was.)

Now so let's get around to Shiva being the Supreme God of the Hindu Trinity and the fact that there are some branches of the faith that dispute this. This should be irrelevant to us because we're fans of the LN. Anything that doesn't have anything to do with the LN shouldn't matter, because its Mahouka we like, and I'm guessing most of us in the fandom aren't practicing Hindus. Also, because this is an LN--something we read primarily to entertain ourselves--the author probably didn't go too deep into the subject: yes, he did serious research but he doesn't need to research everything--just the stuff he needed to create Mahouka. He just needed something really cool to possibly give him some inspiration and Shiva fit what he was looking for. And after reading on the deity, it's hard to see why he wouldn't use such a badass to create the basis for his badass main character: Shiva is Grade A material. He did some more research, formed a general narrative from what he could find, and tied it to his own story and rewrote the scenes and some of the character traits and relationships he really liked into the context of his story. Mario Puzo did the same thing with the Borgias for his Godfather series.

As for why I felt the need to say the obvious: Inferno, Niflheim, Cocytus. Well, I was just trying to make a point. These are all places associated with death and not everyone is into mythology. Yes, not all the dead go to Niflheim--some of them are chosen for Valhalla; yes, Inferno and Cocytus are obvious if you know your Dante and your Greek Underworld. However; the death connection needn't be so deep. Again, like with Tatsuya and Shiva, all the author needed was to create an effect; all he needed was something cool to use for the names of his main heroine's techniques. It doesn't matter that some of Norse dead ended up in Valhalla--all that mattered was that some of them ended up in Niflheim and it being a cold underworld kind of place it suits Miyuki perfectly. The author got what he needed. Something which suits Miyuki's brand of powers and create the "Goddess of Death" or the "Imperial Snow Queen" vibe he wanted for her--and it was good enough, that's all we need to know. Her being a "Death Goddess" also ties to her identity as a Yotsuba; the entire clan is very closely tied with death symbols: 4, crows(Kuroba), ninjas, assassination, "Grim Reaper", "Mistress of Lethe", Demon King of the Far East. Add in the Shiba siblings' "Snow Queen", and "Mahesvara"/"Obsidian Demon" titles and I think we can safely say the author is trying to imply something here.

Also, check the fb post again. I believe I wrote something in there about royals also performing incestuous marriages. Mostly on the basis of "divine blood". Sure I said only gods marry their sisters, and strictly speaking that's not true....but at the same kind of is? Because a lot of elites in certain cultures practice these unions as a way of setting themselves apart from the common folk. So, its not just gods who go after their sisters, but also people with alleged divine ancestry (living gods) or just people with divine pretensions.


P.S: I replied the same thing earlier, but I have very little idea how things worked here--I got a little confused, it fell under pending, I thought I already verified my account, but it turns out I didn't click the correct link. So my apologies if this post gets repeated. (Good thing I copied everything first ^_^)
Last edited by Borderose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Borderose »

Niflheim wrote:
crisisavatar wrote:Just going to quietly leave this here:

https://apps.facebook.com/forumforpages ... adc76fcc/0

Well, it sounds like you agree with him. May I inquier as to way and on what points?
***
Since I didnt ruin my laptop splurting coffee all over it reading that I'll jot down some general thoughts, just like most things that entier post lack any form of actual sources despite making an array of claims that really need some backing. I'll take one quote and take it from there.
To be specific: it has been confirmed that Tatsuya is HEAVILY based on Shiva, the Hindu God of Destruction and Regeneration, while Miyuki is based on various Goddesses of Death

Since his entier theoyy hinges on this, this is something he needs to substantiate with either an interview with the author or other information that can be connected to the author. Without that it is just a fanboy rambling on about his desired ending and constructing his argument for it. Also even if the author has confirmed that the characters are based on deities from various mythologies to a certain extent, this guy is making the massive assumption that 'based on' equals ' mirrored on'. Thats not the only problem, not all views within Hinduism regards Shiva as the supreme god either, which further the need for sourcing. Further on Shiva is only refered to as the Destroyer or the Transformer within the hindu Trimurati, nothing about regeneration.

Then we have the factually wrong statement that only deities marry thier sister. Honstly, I thought it was common knowledge that incesteus marriages were practiced in ancient egypt to a certain extent for the purpose of keeping the "blood clean". One blantly wrong "fact" puts him up the creek without a paddle.

However the best was actually the on the 4th line when he claimed he wasn't "fanboying" it. It is more or less unsubstantiated fan drivel and he keeps beating his own drum all the way to the end, it wasn't anything other than "fanboying". Going as far as hinting at a mathematical beauty with their school year, birthdays and time between births, guess it is true what they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

With that said, and my previous posts on the subject, I guess I come off as someone that don't approve of this type of ending. Frankly speaking I don't care, I got my own thoughts and theory on the subject of who ends up with who in the end. It is just that many that wish for the incesteus ending tries to find random theories to justify it, when all they really need to say is that is what they want. The above link is a good example of it. We are all fans of the same series, yet that guy tries to be above that claiming he isnt "fanboying" to somehow make his theory more valid. All that while the entier post screams "fan boy!" with side tracking his reasoning and that annoying use of capsing words to emphasis them as if we are to dumb to get it otherwise.



I do want to make a couple of corrections and ask few questions:

1) Shiva is also in charge of regeneration. Check it out. Also, the reason I don't even try to post links to my info sources is because 1) they're all over the place and some of them I found on picture books, and 2) People don't have to take my word for it. I'm trying to get people to do their own research into the myths. The stuff is everywhere on the net.

2) No, I don't immediately assume that "based on" equals "mirrored on", lots of people base their stories and characters on gods, assuming that just because a couple of characters share a few similarities would be stupid; but because I noticed a lot of parallels--not just with their powers but even in their characterization--then I began thinking that maybe there's more to the connections than we thought. At first I just checked out Shiva's wiki page to see just how much of the god inspired our main character. What I saw surprised me. I put two and two together. Tatsuya and Shiva are remarkably similar not just in powers but in their disposition. OK, now Parvati apparently plays a prominent role in his story. So if Tatsuya is heavily based on Shiva then could it be that there's a Parvati-inspired character in Mahouka? Then who is Tatsuya's Parvati? From my perspective there is--and Miyuki's the one who fits the description best. And so I formed a theory around that.

3) Pharaohs, Emperors, Kings, Chiefs...Yes, not everyone who takes their sister to bed is a god, but those who openly marry them have usually been people who boasted of divine lineage. It's one of the things that separates them from the commoners. Because marrying your sister is usually something only the gods are allowed to do. I only meant for the words "only gods marry their sisters" to mean that those who consider themselves above normal standards would ever think of such an "impossible pairing". And if there's anything the Shibas can do together it's the impossible. Also, even if I was wrong about this little part--it doesn't cancel out everything else that checked out. What could take it all crashing down however, is if Miyuki is proven not to be the Parvati-analogue. And right now, especially after volume 11, that's not happening.

4) I think it was pretty obvious I was fanboying. I never denied it. I was just sharing my thoughts on what I think may be happening here. Where on earth did anyone get the impression that I wasn't fanboying? Because I said "It's not just me fanboying"? I said "not just". I just think there's more to this than just me hoping for a wincest ending. This was all one guy having a fandom eureka moment. Yes, Shiva's mythology is complex, but, not even getting to their similarities as characters, the story he has with Sati/Parvati is actually quite consistent and the key scenes are reminiscent of things that also happened in the Shiba siblings' backstory. Everything I wrote was just me making a guess based on what I noticed. I tied everything together, came up with a theory that explains what I may be seeing, and starting looking for facts to support this. Still, it really was just a fan theory; everything could be thrown off to nothing in the next volume. I don't really mind. Who knows? Maybe the author just based a certain part of the story on the Shiva legend and then chose something else completely to decide how he's going to end this to create his own unique narrative. Point is: it's just fun trying to guess what people might be planning. It's like a big game to me. :D
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keysersoze
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by keysersoze »

Incest ending is impossible..i felt it would have, had oreimo ended in the same. dengeki should make an exception for this one and let tats x miyuki pair end up together..well 4th world is made out into a villain now.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Borderose »

keysersoze wrote:Incest ending is impossible..i felt it would have, had oreimo ended in the same. dengeki should make an exception for this one and let tats x miyuki pair end up together..well 4th world is made out into a villain now.


They could always develop make the pairing official off-screen. Maybe give us heavy implications that they did indeed end up together--I think people would be satisfied as long as they have every reason to believe Tatsuya and Miyuki are still together in the end--even if it was never explicitly stated. I think there's still a chance for a more in-your-face ending though as, unlike OreImo, this is set in an alternate future world, so maybe it has more freedom when it comes to what it's allowed to get away with using the "it's a different world" excuse.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Lord Lucifer »

Am I the only one who's rooting for a Shizuku ending? Dunno, just something about two kuu-dere types ending together just seems sweet lol
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by dunpeal »

On main topic, i have a little doubt if they are actually siblings. Back in volume 5 when shizuku was helping out honoka by separating miyuki from tatsuya and also asks if they were true sibling she answers as

As I was saying... Onii-sama and I are true siblings. Or at least that's what it says on the records, and DNA tests have always confirmed that relation.


"at least" part, some1 of their back ground having already erased their background it shouldn't be forge it .

Also, "D.n.a test's always " sounds like multiple time they went through it. ( makes one think how loose their mum's personality was ;) ) anyways why would they require that unless there was something suspicious somewhere.

Dont know if i am looking too much into it.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by nosaer »

dunpeal wrote:On main topic, i have a little doubt if they are actually siblings. Back in volume 5 when shizuku was helping out honoka by separating miyuki from tatsuya and also asks if they were true sibling she answers as

As I was saying... Onii-sama and I are true siblings. Or at least that's what it says on the records, and DNA tests have always confirmed that relation.


"at least" part, some1 of their back ground having already erased their background it shouldn't be forge it .

Also, "D.n.a test's always " sounds like multiple time they went through it. ( makes one think how loose their mum's personality was ;) ) anyways why would they require that unless there was something suspicious somewhere.

Dont know if i am looking too much into it.


While you do raise some good points, I think that's more along the lines of Miyuki having given up on not being Tatsuya's sister by being shown evidence of it. She doesn't want to be "just" his sister but is forced to believe so. I would say that it's feasable for the Yotsuba to have given DNA tests to a child (Tatsuya) born among their ranks who they've determined has disappointing Magic potential. Maybe they would've been curious as to whether or Not Tats was really a Yotsuba, Or maybe they've both been DNA tested several times for experimentation purposes.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by nobless oblige »

NewAgeOfPower wrote:I was informed that Oreimo ended the way it did because the publisher (same publisher as Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei), Dengeki Bunko, specifically forbids incest.
I'm personally a Saegusa Mayumi fan (best troll ever), but an easy victory is hardly a victory.

From my point of view the author have a very good idea of how the story will develop. If he had incest ending planned from the beginning then he might have done a deal with the publisher. (allow incest ending or I'll let someone else publish).

I agree that Mayumi is a good partner for Tatsuya but we must not forget Miyuki. I can't imagine her with someone else than. I don't think the series will end with Tatsuya and Mayumi live happily ever after and Myuki left alone. I therefore believe in incest ending until the author add a character that Miyuki develop feelings for. (this could very well happen given the mentioned number of planned volumes).
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by caiooa »

even if it's impossible inside dengeki restraints, it can easily have a different ending in other medias (mangas, games, anime, etc). See a example of ore no imouto psp endings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9zaf6DI ... e=youtu.be
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by dunpeal »

Talking about mayumi, i would have loved tatsuya being a secret product of mayaXkoichi love, leaving opening for tatXmyuki coupling. Also making mayumi his half sister, who is stuck liking tatsuya like a brother and also more than a bro at the same time. Justice i guess.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Mahesvara »

dunpeal wrote:Talking about mayumi, i would have loved tatsuya being a secret product of mayaXkoichi love, leaving opening for tatXmyuki coupling. Also making mayumi his half sister, who is stuck liking tatsuya like a brother and also more than a bro at the same time. Justice i guess.


While a nice thing to think about its impossible. Maya and Koichi were engaged but that ended because of Maya becoming infertile. It is possible. although extremely unlikly, of a MiyaxKoichi but there is absolutly no evidence of this.
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Re: So, Incest ending impossibru?

Post by Noblesse Oblige »

Mahesvara wrote:
dunpeal wrote:Talking about mayumi, i would have loved tatsuya being a secret product of mayaXkoichi love, leaving opening for tatXmyuki coupling. Also making mayumi his half sister, who is stuck liking tatsuya like a brother and also more than a bro at the same time. Justice i guess.


While a nice thing to think about its impossible. Maya and Koichi were engaged but that ended because of Maya becoming infertile. It is possible. although extremely unlikly, of a MiyaxKoichi but there is absolutly no evidence of this.

Not being able to bear children is not the same as =impossible. I don't remember how it was specified in the text but it could be possible that she could have children through a surrogate mother.
However, I think we should assume that the DNA test is correct (it should be as long as Tatsuya isn't lying and Miyuki being fooled)
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