Monogatari Series

[Darklor]

Sound like a good idea I would think if they are continuing to translate...

[kerrichan]

...Our translators could also pitch in with the editing after they finish their bit so as to ease some of the pressure on the editors.

What bit? It sounds like they have translators willing to translate (not that I'm not) so we should just focus on editing?

Very confused...

[dragonst]

No, I'm proposing that we should split up the work between their translators and ours, and since our translators would then have less to translate, they'll be able to help with editing if they want to.

[kerrichan]

No, I'm proposing that we should split up the work between their translators and ours, then since our translators would then have less to translate, they'll be able to help with editing if they want to.

Oh. I suppose I don't mind. Who's doing the negotiation? We should probably divide it up soon so that I can get back to work on it.

[dragonst]

Uh. Oni? He's the project supervisor and also someone who can represent B-T in formal negotiations. More work coming up for you Oni!

[Darklor]

Oh. I suppose I don't mind. Who's doing the negotiation? We should probably divide it up soon so that I can get back to work on it.

Uh, while wait, you could translate something different before you get bored...

Uh. Oni? He's the project supervisor and also someone who can represent B-T in formal negotiations. More work coming up for you Oni!

Oh, isnt he occoupied otherwise at the moment? That could mean waiting for some time...

[onizuka-gto]

Okay, just caught up to what everyone is talking about.

Now my impression is that Kaien is pretty fast in the translation, yet they are only so far only on the first volume.

Considering the situation, I do agree that we shouldn't "race" to compete on the same chapters, its a waste resources.

On the other hand, I understand the "literal" and "naturalisation" debate and it is no surprise that I prefer the "naturalised" Baka-Tsuki version.

After considering the ideas of a joint project on volume 1 & 2 or that we continue translating Kizumongatari, I see the benefits and problems.

If we do a merge for the first proposal, it can be a bit difficult as then we will have to negotiate script, do we translate alternative chapters? Translating and editing then independently? Or do we take turns translating, then passing over the script to be edited? Or will the translators pass the script to be edit by both groups?

Having experienced the problems with our collaborations on the Zero no Tsukaima project, I'm not certain we can pull it off, on the other hand we have had successful partnerships with other groups and that will boil down to how good our communication are with each other and the organisation structure of the group.

For option two, it will be much easier knowing which group is translating which and ther will not be any over laps, however this will deprive kerrichan.....


So, I would like more input please, before I start any formal negotiation with kaien, to best work this out.

If there are any kaisen members around, please do not hesitate to join the discussion and help us understand how your group operates and what you think is the better options, as you know Baka-Tsuki operates in a different way to traditional scanlation/fansubbing groups.

[dragonst]

I would expect two main points of contention in any potential negotiation:

1) The final editing rights that I proposed. I do think that it's not a particularly unreasonable request, seeing that we probably have more experienced editors and a stable framework for novel editing. On the other hand, ii-subs is a fansubbing group (I think), so while they probably have experienced translators, I wouldn't think that their editors are used to editing a novel, especially one with such an emphasis on wordplay as bakemonogatari. That said, I would expect it to be a sore point as it basically gives us the right to do extreme edits or potentially null their translation all together (not very possible, but not completely impossible either). Of course, we'll also offer their editors the right to edit on our wiki.

2) The question of who'll give up their translation of volume 1. I'm thinking that we should split chapter 1 and 2 because there's one translator for volume 1 and one for kizumonogatari. Since we usually have a quota of one translator per volume for the sake of language consistency, the other translator wouldn't be working on kizumonogatari. Assuming that we leave out the translation of nisemonogatari, that leaves us with the only choice of dumping one translation of hitagi crab over the other. I'm thinking that we use the B-T one, since it's the more naturalised of the two, and would save us the effort in editing the other version of hitagi crab, seeing that we could possibly be pushing for final editing rights. This would be sore point number 2, since no one would like to see their hard work go to waste.

If we get our way for both points of contention, I should think that it'll be a successful, albeit slightly unbalanced partnership. If we don't get point 1, then I foresee difficulties in getting a standard naturalised translation of bakemonogatari. In short, I think that by splitting up translators to translate different volumes of the series then consolidating it in our wiki where it can be easily edited by editors from both sides, a consistent, high quality translation can be created in a relatively short period of time.

[joay_b]

1) So that means the chief editor rights would be assigned to one or two (dedicated!) persons answerable to both Baka-Tsuki and Kaien. ALL edits and/or translations would then go through them. Is it possible to defer wiki changes until reviewed and approved?

a) Make sure they've already read the original (Japanese) material.

2) Since 5 or more individuals spanning across at least 2 groups are involved, perhaps a shorter, tighter deadline for each chapter has to be implemented? Since this is could be a popular series, a risk exists where potential translators/editors are locked out due to inactivity of translators/editors assigned to the current chapters.

3) To maintain open communications, a regular status reporting has to be implemented. Here everyone involved can talk together on:

a) How far are they on their respective chapters?
b) Resolve potentially group-divisive risks and issues (translation or otherwise)
c) Here the chief editors can decide who gets to post the first translation of every chapter

AFAIK, Baka-Tsuki has an existing framework for stuff like wiki identification, page protection, formatting, etc.

DISCLAIMER: This is only based on what I've experienced in handling projects. It's possible that there are still risks and issues yet to be addresses. You have been warned.

[onizuka-gto]

Is it possible to defer wiki changes until reviewed and approved?

This is one of the tricky problems with our system, implementing page "restriction" is very limited on our wiki.

But saying that, yes, in the past we have had been able to set up limited access, however it severely handicapped the entire structure of our Wiki.

The main problem we had, is the way fansub/scanlation methods are traditionally handled.

They are used to handling raw sources which will be roughly translated, this is then proof-read and then edited, this will happen another one of two times before openly "published".

This method is normal for both anime and manga scene, the majority of the work is handled behind closed doors until it meets satisfaction and is released.

However this clashes entirely with the Baka-Tsuki philosophy and protocol, we cannot operate with all the editing behind closed door, if it cannot be placed on the wiki or a format that allows the majority of Baka-Tsuki staff to view and edit our structure does not allow use to function at optimal capacity.

This happened on our Z.N.T collaboration, the fansub group could not comprehend that we only needed the rough translation posted on the wiki for editing, they kept stalling and stalling, reluctant to publish the script on the wiki for us, and kept on insisting to send us one script that had to be edited, saved then pass on to the next editor.

The serial structure of the editing function clashed with the parallel processing we do here.

Fansub/manga = Silicon-based processing

Baka-Tsuki = Quantum Computing


I'm not saying it will be impossible, because when a group takes into account of our method it can work beautifully.
(Clannad, Later half of the Z.N.T. collaborative effort.)

shorter, tighter deadline

While it is understandable that we must have at lease an estimated time of completion, there is not really a "culture" at Baka-Tsuki to issue or discuss such "deadline" I'm not at liberty to comment on how well our community of translators can cope with a hobby-based deadline... (sounds a bit too much like work! D: )

Personally it boils down to this, is there a compromise in the method of editing/proof-reading between the two different scenes?

fansub/manga want privacy of script before publishing, Baka-Tsuki require open multi-editing platform before and after publishing?

Come to think of it, since modifying our wiki can be more trouble then it is worth (i.e. disabling the "recent change" feature, will severely cut down on our "productivity")

However, we could use "Google Wave" it is like a wiki, yet has the option of privacy in some respect, however this is restricted to google mail users only....

So as you can surmise, before we can even determine the division of working load, sorting out how to exchange the script for editing and communication is the more crucial hurdle for this collaboration to even begin.

Edited out your repeated lines and deleted your double post. - TGM

[NaweG]

I will be happy to help edit either or both sets of material. I am comfortable with the wiki here, and also have Google Wave access (also have a couple invites left if anyone on here needs one). Just point me to what needs work, and I'll get on it

[Darklor]

For those who cant access the http://kaien.ii-subs.net/ page:

【怪苑】

Hi, Kaens here. About a month ago I’ve given in to someone’s pestering on this other IRC channel and gave Bakemonogatari a shot, intrigued by all the fuss about the anime.

An hour later I wanted to pull the hell back, what with all the puns so easy to understand, all the references to what I’ve of course read a lot indeed, and overall the sheer amount of other translator-friendly crap you guys will never give a damn about but which makes my efforts so fleeting I want to cower in a corner with a stapler in my hand held out in a threatening manner. Further work on it revealed no elation, but I came to terms with the style and sort of had my initial interest doubled, heh.

But no matter, despite my originally light intentions and the mostly experimental nature of the project, by now I realise fully well that it won’t let go of me until I bring up at least this first novel Bakemonogatari 1/2 for your pleasure. With that said, you guys probably know the way the media I chose to work with, Google Docs, works, so you’ll be able to track my progress, failures, temporary solutions &c. whenever you like.

This will be where your attention would belong.

As I am not a native speaker, after all, nor have I read the book further than I have translated it, so kind people gathered up to help me get through, proofreading, giving advice, and for that I’m grateful as much as you should be ^^ Enjoy the product of this collaboration — and we know a product multiplies, not just adds up.

P.S. Credits also go to velocity7 of TLWiki who got in with the exact same project a bit later than me, has different everything and has already done so much for the scene.

P.P.S. The group title, Kaien, might mean “demonic intent”, or “wicked thought”, or just “Kae x eiennohito”, whichever you prefer.

And for completion also again:

【知識】

Hello guys!
As you can see on our staff page, most of II-Subs staff are taking part in this project too. Nisioisin’s compositions are deep and fathomless, and we aren’t about to let them pass by.
Coming to business, I would like to announce that all people who are interested in this project are welcome.
We need:

1. translators
2. proofreaders
3. quality checkers

Everyone who wants to participate should come to #bmgtl channel on rizon network.

Also, if anyone from baka-tsuki TL project is interested, how about making this a joint-project? First option is to merge our forces and translate Bakemonogatari 1-2 together. Second option is that we are finishing it, and you are doing Kizumonogatari, for example. There is no need to compete and waste TL resources: we all know how valuable they are.

So maybe they are a wiki open minded group? - At least one can hope... At least I think it sounds as if they arent against showing their progress and thus also some of their possible errors...

[onizuka-gto]

Thanks for the Edit TGM, not sure what happened, there I posted my comment and for some reason it had doubled the content, so I re-edited the comment, but evidently that didn't help....

So maybe they are a wiki open minded group? - At least one can hope... At least I think it sounds as if they arent against showing their progress and thus also some of their possible errors...

Perhaps they are open minded, but I don't think the "open mindedness" will allow them to publish anything that has not been initially edited already....It just not something they can be entirely comfortable with, but lets put that aside for now and let me ask a question to all the staff working on the project at the moment.

I have already established that modifying the wiki is more or less out of the question, so lets look at the alternative, which I mean Google wave.

How many of the staff involved in the project have Google Wave?


If you do not have it, I would like anyone who doesn't to have an invite, I would like to test it out with one of the currently translated scripts.

If all the staff here have at leased got access to Google wave and can play around with it, then we have the "communication" side pat down and I can reach out to kaien with a compromising solution to cover ourselves when we face the table.

It will also give me a chance to evaluate the state the script that we current use, that I can discuss with the Translators into how "rough" a draft do they think is suitable to be "published".

This will give me a benchmark to match against kaien definition of "rough" and a level they they are comfortable to release at, since you as you all know at Baka-Tsuki, we don't care how "rough" the script is, it'll "eventually" evolve into a very fine script.....

So at this moment NaweG has Google wave, I have Google Wave....

Let me add you to my contact NaweG and we will see how this Google Wave rolls...

P.S: just message kerrichan if she has it, NaweG I would appriciate if you can contact Omimon and inquire if he has Google Wave and if he will need an invite?

Thank you.

[joay_b]

Google wave

So far only two from this forum have Google Wave preview access ... good luck playing with it.

Let us know what happened during your time at the sandbox.

[onizuka-gto]

Dammn, my previous cost, seemed to be duplicating my edited text, must be some strange feedback of somesort, might be just my system, but if anyone else has experienced this problem might be server related....

But certainly Joey_b, I will publish my evaluation as soon as possible on this latest Google service.