Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Novel Series that has ceased translation

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cautr
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by cautr »

zerry wrote:yes please remove all Preview Machine Translation it not worth to post in wiki and they bother Translator and Editor who work hard to bring this novel for us . :evil:
and If you're still insist to machine translation, at least do it to Enigma's standards:

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... r1_Preview.
Look, another one who thinks glossed over MTLs are good/better. You're trying to tell crap apart from shit. :roll: I'd even say that glossed over MTLs are worse because they discourage "real" TLs even more to do a right TL for the stuff.

Anyway, I'm out.
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jegaggin
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by jegaggin »

I haven't bothered to read these machine translations properly but there have been some very good ones from people who've actually tried to make sense of the machine translation so we can't throw this stuff in the same category. Though I must say I'm really thankful people are actually translating this series as I've been enjoying it so much. I'm up to Volume 8 and looking forward to reading Volume 9 and onwards. It really is such an interesting story!
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Blankdom
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Blankdom »

cautr wrote:
zerry wrote:yes please remove all Preview Machine Translation it not worth to post in wiki and they bother Translator and Editor who work hard to bring this novel for us . :evil:
and If you're still insist to machine translation, at least do it to Enigma's standards:

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... r1_Preview.
Look, another one who thinks glossed over MTLs are good/better. You're trying to tell crap apart from shit. :roll: I'd even say that glossed over MTLs are worse because they encourage "real" TLs even more to do a right TL for the stuff.

Anyway, I'm out.
@zerry
Spoiler! :
Broken is still broken, as was said by kwh89. Machine translation is doesn't convert sentence structure of the two different languages correctly; it's mainly converts the word's meaning, and even then it's bare minimum (since they tend to go by how often it's used rather then it's use(meaning) in the context, it's a program, but not an AI). [That's why for some MTLs there are words that gets converted to 'sexual' type words and/or the placement of words are all jumbled and hard to read.
@cautr
Spoiler! :
I would have to agree, glossed over MTLs seem to be good and 'full' at first sight, but that's to those that don't know the language (or so I read in a few forums. I didn't realize anything at all till I read the post :P, just goes to show how awesome you guys are).
Anyways, been checking back nearly every day to read the next chapter (in order) cuz MTLs just doesn't cut it for me, (makes my head hurt trying to decipher the sentences) sd I really appreciate your dedication, and how much effort you guys put into bring us these works of art. Can't wait till it's caught up.


PS. I would suggest there be a screening for translators, if the problem keeps arising; that way if people want to, and can, they can help out, but if they're just doing it in a way any one can, it's kinda redundant to the cause, and should be blocked from 'helping'.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by zerry »

read again my post i not encourage use Machine translation. i said before : If you're still insist to machine translation, at least do it to Enigma's standards:
and it still in category Preview not actual Translation. :x
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by kwh89 »

cautr wrote:
zerry wrote:yes please remove all Preview Machine Translation it not worth to post in wiki and they bother Translator and Editor who work hard to bring this novel for us . :evil:
and If you're still insist to machine translation, at least do it to Enigma's standards:

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... r1_Preview.
Look, another one who thinks glossed over MTLs are good/better. You're trying to tell crap apart from shit. :roll: I'd even say that glossed over MTLs are worse because they encourage "real" TLs even more to do a right TL for the stuff.

Anyway, I'm out.
he means that if u wanna put something as "Preview" at least have that kinda standard. The current "Previews" that we have up atm is total crap(No offense here). Cant even make sense out of it whereas the Madan no ou's preview are at least readable.
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Lighthalzen
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Lighthalzen »

Thank god you guys cleaned up the Translator's list. That stupid shit was getting out of hand. I'm still concerned about Cother.
The reasoning behind using 6 machine translations and merging them together (sound like they're using TA) is OK IF you have a basic understanding of Japanese & English language structure and you don't know the words.
You'd filter out the gist of it and iron out the details from the differences into basic level of English.

Judging from their profile, I think they're just trolling people. Their comments (not previews) seem to leak knowing English and but faking not knowing by throwing machine translations into the mix.

I've had to work with Taiwanese programmers who've had horrible English, but the noticeable difference is they don't waste words. They don't use words that didn't have a point.
Last edited by Lighthalzen on Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Vanant »

Lighthalzen wrote:Thank god you guys cleaned up the Translator's list. That stupid shit was getting out of hand. I'm still concerned about Cother.
The reasoning behind using 6 machine translations and merging them together (sound like they're using TA) is OK IF you have a basic understanding of Japanese & English language structure and you don't know the words.
You'd filter out the gist of it and iron out the details from the differences into basic level of English.

Judging from their profile, I think they're just trolling people. Their comments (not previews) seem to leak knowing English and but faking not knowing by throwing machine translations into the mix.

I've had to work with Taiwanese programmers who've had horrible English, but the noticeable difference is they don't waste words. They use words that didn't have a point.
Since there seem to be lingering concerns about COTHER and the war against the machines, I suggest that we send a translator back in time and have him impregnate a woman so that the child can lead the human army in the future.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Hiyono »

* I apologize for the incoming wall of text, and the fact that this is off-topic, but I also felt that this was the most appropriate place to post this.

Given the constant references to EnigmaticAxiom's work as some sort of standard, I thought I'd take a shot at providing some sort of visible metric of its accuracy for comparison purposes. It seems to be commonly held that if the English is fine, and as much care as Enigmatic took is taken, then the translation should be more or less accurate. I want to dispute that claim.

I've taken the epilogue from Madan v1 for comparison and translated it myself, though admittedly from Chinese. That notwithstanding, as the official translation, it should be fairly reliable. You can find the comparison of our two translations here.

As should be fairly obvious, while the MTL'd text is fairly accurate, there's still a lot missing. Sure, much of it is still there, but the devil is in the details. Consider, for example, when a series we fans love is adapted into an anime that "butchers" it. Again, much of the content is the same, but when all those small things that make up the series we love are gone, it's aggravating, is it not? When translating, it's almost a given that some things will be lost in translation, but do we not owe it to the series we love to at least try to preserve the feel of things? Authors agonize over all these little details. Writing is an extremely difficult task, and getting published even more so. They spend countless hours working on these novels that we so enjoy, and do we not owe them at least the effort of attempting to match that effort with effort of our own? When you MTL something, you don't even do that much.

Finally, in an admittedly more emotional and personal appeal, do readers not realize the disrespect and disdain they show translators when they suggest that an edited machine translation can reproduce "most" of what a translator does? When you suggest that a pure machine translation is of value - even an edited one - what you are in effect saying is, "Sure, you may have spent years learning a new language, and countless hours crafting a translation, but look, I can do 80% of what you do in a fraction of the time and with far less effort!" Or in other words, "What a waste of time and effort."
"There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible and wrong." H.L. Mencken (1971)
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Armnorn »

Hiyono wrote:* I apologize for the incoming wall of text, and the fact that this is off-topic, but I also felt that this was the most appropriate place to post this.

Given the constant references to EnigmaticAxiom's work as some sort of standard, I thought I'd take a shot at providing some sort of visible metric of its accuracy for comparison purposes. It seems to be commonly held that if the English is fine, and as much care as Enigmatic took is taken, then the translation should be more or less accurate. I want to dispute that claim.

I've taken the epilogue from Madan v1 for comparison and translated it myself, though admittedly from Chinese. That notwithstanding, as the official translation, it should be fairly reliable. You can find the comparison of our two translations here.

As should be fairly obvious, while the MTL'd text is fairly accurate, there's still a lot missing. Sure, much of it is still there, but the devil is in the details. Consider, for example, when a series we fans love is adapted into an anime that "butchers" it. Again, much of the content is the same, but when all those small things that make up the series we love are gone, it's aggravating, is it not? When translating, it's almost a given that some things will be lost in translation, but do we not owe it to the series we love to at least try to preserve the feel of things? Authors agonize over all these little details. Writing is an extremely difficult task, and getting published even more so. They spend countless hours working on these novels that we so enjoy, and do we not owe them at least the effort of attempting to match that effort with effort of our own? When you MTL something, you don't even do that much.

Finally, in an admittedly more emotional and personal appeal, do readers not realize the disrespect and disdain they show translators when they suggest that an edited machine translation can reproduce "most" of what a translator does? When you suggest that a pure machine translation is of value - even an edited one - what you are in effect saying is, "Sure, you may have spent years learning a new language, and countless hours crafting a translation, but look, I can do 80% of what you do in a fraction of the time!" Or in other words, "What a waste of effort."
*clap clap clap* Couldn't have said it better. There might just MIGHT be a point in the future where translations by machines are as accurate as the translations of a human that spent years to learn that language but that point is way in the future. I can understand that people want new content but this is not a solution. You will spit on the work of the authors and real translators and destroy your own enjoyment of a great novel just because you couldn't wait for a few days.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Treyon »

i too agree with what hiyono said, MT will always have a degree of error even if well made. For example my native language is spanish, if i write something in spanish and translate that it will be quite different to how i would have written it in english and most of the time the context is wrong. Same happens with japanese and even more so since the structure of sentences is different from english. I did like that all MT translations are put as previews, even if they are well made until a proper person who understand japanese can cross check that the context is correct. That way real translators may use that preview and reduce the time needed to translate... What i mean is that a translator may make use of MT that have been made up to standars (not complete crap) and they just need to basically fix things while they compare to the original text, some paragraphs may be fine translated by MT but most arent. This may work for people who dont dominate japanese but for people who do dominate it, it would be far better to just translate word by word, sentence by sentence from cero and this will be always better that MT.

PD: If its not to much trouble can someone who knows japanese read the original chapters in japanese and then read the MT translated chapters once they are finished and give an estimate % of error? if possible pls add places that need to be checked and fixed.By the way im not talking about those previews, im talking about the chapters done by kazeboy and Ren in volumes 9 and 10 once they are completed

PD2: Lets remember that this is Mushoku Tensei forum, so lets talk about the Novel instead of keep discusing about MT. Im really looking forward to Sylphiette Chapter!!!!.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Vanant »

@Hiyono, @Treyon

I think you guys are still kind of missing the point. EnigmaticAxiom's stuff was used as a standards for previews.

As in, 'if you're going to do a preview with machine translations, at least put in this much effort to make it reliable'.

What we weren't saying: 'Look what you can do with machine translations! Who even needs real translators!?'
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by TJP1600 »

I was the mastermind behind the troller, no need for the applause. For some reason the community actually supports these machine translations to various degrees which absolutely baffles me (this applies more to the BT management/contributors). Do we not have any standards left (if we had any to begin with)? Usually I just turn a blind eye to most BT issues and it just ends up being indifferent disgust for me. However, I wanted to bring this issue to light before Baka-Tsuki makes an acquisition deal with Google Translate. Could I have done this in a more civil way? Of course, but where's the fun in that......


In short, I'm against any sort of machine translations.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by hayashi_s »

If you're going to put in any effort at all into making machine translations "readable", why not take that dedication and actually translate the thing?

You can clearly see the previews have inherent defects, but they're only obvious to actual translators. Essentially you're saying that "look, this is not permanent, this is only temporary, have this piece of crap to tide you over until someone eventually takes over and does it correctly." So look at madan. The first 5 volumes are machine translated, and no one went back to do them. You think they're temporary, but you don't realise they function as a huge ball and chain to anyone who actually wants to translate them.

The point being: Machine translators will never replace humans, but they also do more harm than good.
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Vanant
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Vanant »

hayashi_s wrote:If you're going to put in any effort at all into making machine translations "readable", why not take that dedication and actually translate the thing?
Agreed with you here, but it's not like BT has any sort of rule against machine translation previews, so it's going to happen anyway. Oni is still going to let basically anyone in lol (he even let me in). Since this is the case, it may as well not be crap like COTHER's. Perhaps if you real translators feel strongly enough, you could pressure for stricter standards on anything that isn't a teaser project anymore?
hayashi_s wrote:So look at madan. The first 5 volumes are machine translated, and no one went back to do them. You think they're temporary, but you don't realise they function as a huge ball and chain to anyone who actually wants to translate them.
Okay, touche lol.
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Re: Mushoku Tensei ~Isekaiittara Honkidasu~

Post by Lighthalzen »

TJP1600 wrote:I was the mastermind behind the troller, no need for the applause. For some reason the community actually supports these machine translations to various degrees which absolutely baffles me (this applies more to the BT management/contributors). Do we not have any standards left (if we had any to begin with)? Usually I just turn a blind eye to most BT issues and it just ends up being indifferent disgust for me. However, I wanted to bring this issue to light before Baka-Tsuki makes an acquisition deal with Google Translate. Could I have done this in a more civil way? Of course, but where's the fun in that......


In short, I'm against any sort of machine translations.
Oh goodie, thats nice to know. At least it was done intentionally to make a point. I was beginning to get worried people got the feeling it was ok to do this and start going across all projects and posting MTL's just to get their names on the translator's list
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