Published Locking Policy

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Voting: Published Locking Policy

Poll ended at Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:39 am

I agree with this policy
8
80%
I disagree with the details of this policy (Details)
0
No votes
I disagree with this policy completely (please state alternative)
2
20%
 
Total votes: 10

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onizuka-gto
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

Krikit wrote:Okay...so...let me see. Is the only way a company can sue for lost revenue/have a site shut down, etc, ONLY if the text is word for word?

Then was the proposed counter-measure to lock a project, so that it couldn't be made to look like XXXX Company's novel release?

Alot of these translators want to have the most accurate translation, right? So they work hard translating themselves, so they know it's creditable. The translators can, and I am sure will put out their own "home-grown" ideas, in other words they will put out the translations they worked out. Most likely they won't use another english book, as there's no guarantee of that book not being censored, or changed in some way.

So I'm thinking a "middle of the fence" idea now. I think it must be noted that if a translator wishes to continue with a work, then they should be able to do so. However, it's also true B-T needs to protect itself from malicious or otherwise "copied" edits. Here's where an idea comes in, tell me what you think Oni.

What if a project that was liscensed, was changed in "access?" I mean, instead of freezing the whole project, what if the project was simply locked to editing from anyone, with the exception of a specific account or two? In otherwords, you make "joe-shmoe" able to edit the page, but only "joe-shmoe." No other user or anonymous person can edit that project. This way, you know that translator "joe-shmoe" is the only one able to edit/translate. And before "joe-shmoe" (love that name =)) gets "account edit status" for that page and can edit, they have to go to the admins and ask for permission to be allowed to edit said project, that way the admins know the only one editing the project, and can make sure he/she isn't someone who would just retype or paste in the text from the already published novel?

What about something like that? I know it seems like more of a hassle, but is it something plausible? Until I hear yeas or neas, my vote stays in agreement with the current locking policy.

Just to clarify, when i mean "Locking" i mean you cannot edit the page.

You can still read it and later volumes will not be "locked" until they have been confirmed with an Western (English i.e. North American/UK ) publication.

Times of locking volumes will be announce on the overview pages, via a new section, that'll clearly state the dates known.

Alternative language projects and interactive visual novels will not be affected.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Smidge204 »

Const2k wrote: Besides, even in US, there's no legal way to shut down B-T under reason of "non-frozen project". We must have US licensee's text "word for word" hosted on our server located in US for B-T to get some problems. Probability of it is next to zero, because (see above). To be short, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE in real life.
Hey wow, I didn't know you were a copyright lawyer, Const2k. It really helps to have a professional, experienced opinion on these matters...



That was sarcasm, BTW. In a world where people can and have been sued for writing fanfiction under copyright laws, the above argument is clearly complete and total nonsense. Even if it wasn't, licensed is licensed and the entire project should be PULLED not locked. If pulling the English version hurts the other translation languages for that series, then they'll just have to put it on hold until the English version is on sale and use those, just like everyone else does with the Japanese version.

Sorry if you find it inconvenient but when you're doing something that's ethically questionable and suddenly it becomes legally actionable, certain rules apply. Deal with it.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

Smidge204 wrote: Hey wow, I didn't know you were a copyright lawyer, Const2k. It really helps to have a professional, experienced opinion on these matters...

That was sarcasm, BTW. In a world where people can and have been sued for writing fanfiction under copyright laws, the above argument is clearly complete and total nonsense. Even if it wasn't, licensed is licensed and the entire project should be PULLED not locked. If pulling the English version hurts the other translation languages for that series, then they'll just have to put it on hold until the English version is on sale and use those, just like everyone else does with the Japanese version.

Sorry if you find it inconvenient but when you're doing something that's ethically questionable and suddenly it becomes legally actionable, certain rules apply. Deal with it.
=Smidge=
Awwww, Smidge, dont be so harsh...

To put it in simple and nicer words, this is for the best of B-T, so that it can stay free from troubles so things wont be affected and work and continue on
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Krikit »

Okay, so would we still have a project until it was available in english and could be bought? For example: Haruhi.

Haruhi #1 is scheduled for release in April 2009. Can we still keep the project available and open until the day before it's scheduled release? That way it's editable right until the licensed version comes out, so pretty much the same day B-T locks/tosses it, one could buy the book in english without having to care too much?

Do you think it would be okay to keep them until the day of release? Or is it better to get rid of the project as soon as "information" is out that it is "scheduled" to be released? IE Haruhi #1 should be locked/tossed now as the information on it's english release is out. Is it okay to keep it until the volume is actually released?
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

Krikit wrote:Okay, so would we still have a project until it was available in english and could be bought? For example: Haruhi.

Haruhi #1 is scheduled for release in April 2009. Can we still keep the project available and open until the day before it's scheduled release? That way it's editable right until the licensed version comes out, so pretty much the same day B-T locks/tosses it, one could buy the book in english without having to care too much?

Do you think it would be okay to keep them until the day of release? Or is it better to get rid of the project as soon as "information" is out that it is "scheduled" to be released? IE Haruhi #1 should be locked/tossed now as the information on it's english release is out. Is it okay to keep it until the volume is actually released?
Can you P.M a link to where you got the information for the publication date of Volume 01 of Haruhi? thanks.

We will still keep the project on B-T pass the publication date.

We will not take down any volume or entire projects, unless there is an unavoidable situation.

All translated scripts will be still available to read, only those dated for publication, will be non-editable. This means that right up to the date, you can still edit. The dates will warn editors and readers alike that after this date, be prepared for this volume to be locked. It might not happen on the day, but it will certainly happen after it.

This means if you can buy the novel from a widely distributed channel (i.e. Amazon.com) then we can consider the main fundamental goals of B-T to have been fulfilled and therefore encourage you to buy the licensed professional translated version.

and just to a little advice,
having two version of a translations can be helpful for a lot people who wish to improve there own translation skills from Japanese/Chinese source.

....or so i've been told. which is what I'm going to run with anyway.
:roll: :lol:
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

onizuka-gto wrote:and just to a little advice,
having two version of a translations can be helpful for a lot people who wish to improve there own translation skills from Japanese/Chinese source.
Sorry, i dont really get this part? you mean one translation from jap=> english and another is chinese=>english?
onizuka-gto wrote:This means if you can buy the novel from a widely distributed channel (i.e. Amazon.com) then we can consider the main fundamental goals of B-T to have been fulfilled and therefore encourage you to buy the licensed professional translated version.
About this, i did make a topic but apparantly it was misunderstood...
I was wondering whether we should put ads up on the wiki for areas where they can get the original translations... Like for example we are unlikely to be able to translate Shakugan no Shana 1 and 2, we can post a link to where they can buy them? similarly for new publications, like when Haruhi is out? This may also help make the webby more acceptable...?
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
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I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Const2k »

Okay guys, I simply can't let it slip...
Smidge204 wrote:
Const2k wrote: Besides, even in US, there's no legal way to shut down B-T under reason of "non-frozen project". We must have US licensee's text "word for word" hosted on our server located in US for B-T to get some problems. Probability of it is next to zero, because (see above). To be short, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE in real life.
Hey wow, I didn't know you were a copyright lawyer, Const2k. It really helps to have a professional, experienced opinion on these matters...
That was sarcasm, BTW. In a world where people can and have been sued for writing fanfiction under copyright laws, the above argument is clearly complete and total nonsense. Even if it wasn't, licensed is licensed and the entire project should be PULLED not locked. If pulling the English version hurts the other translation languages for that series, then they'll just have to put it on hold until the English version is on sale and use those, just like everyone else does with the Japanese version.
Sorry if you find it inconvenient but when you're doing something that's ethically questionable and suddenly it becomes legally actionable, certain rules apply. Deal with it.
I'm fine with personal attacks as long as they have some payload that contributes to topic. However, I can't help but advise you to read carefully what you're replying to...
1. "Non-frozen project" doesn't qualify as a legally valid reason to sue someone in US.
2. US licensee's text "word for word" hosted on B-T server located in US may give some problems to B-T.
3. It's impossible for this text to appear on B-T wiki as long as editor's approval for posting it is required.
Which of these statements you claim to be false because of what reason(-s)?

Some points for you not to miss once again:
"non-frozen project" != "copyright infringement"
US laws don't apply outside of US territory
ShadowZeroHeart wrote:So the reason of locking the volume is because it is made available, thus there is no need to read the fan-translated version online.
Published official translation has no relation to our translators' one. Latter was made with educational purposes and is hosted for free on non-profit server (i.e. B-T has no ads). I think our translators have the right to edit their own translations anytime. You're not qualified to decide what other fans are (not) allowed to do.
ShadowZeroHeart wrote:in order to find the copyrighted text, one must obtain a copy of the actual one? and have to read through the lines one by one? furthermore, there may be instances when the texts are similar, as a line may only be translated in a way or two at times. The ones to really define whether we are infringing copyright laws are sadly not us, so it is better to play it safe.
If you can't find more-or-less popular thing on the Internet, that means only that you don't try hard enough.
It's highly unlikely for translated volume to experience complete rewriting that would make it identical to copyrighted text. No sane editor would blindly allow it.
And this "playing safe" because of virtual threats makes real damage to project's progress.
ShadowZeroHeart wrote:So by locking the volume, it is to say that our work is earlier, and has no relation with theirs. If they do intend to continue making a fuss, B-T would have to take down the series if a publisher demands such an action to be taken. There is no way for B-T to protect itself, so we can only take precautions to minimize the chances of all these problems happening.
Time-related arguments are nothing. If you're doing something that isn't illegal, it's okay. If this activity becomes illegal and you still continue doing it, it only means that you weren't a criminal, and now you are. Now substitute "activity" with "distribution".
You're completely wrong about helplessness of B-T. If US laws can harm you, don't let them do it. Host questionable texts outside of US (e.g. in Russia) or in untraceable location (Tor network), and you're safe. Why do you think US porn sites are hosted in Russia and vice versa? Why number of pedophiles in Tor network almost equals to number of normal people there?

To sum up my arguments, proposed policy is an overkill. It won't protect B-T from legal actions, but it will harm B-T projects. This is simply wrong idea, and I'll never agree with it.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by TheGiftedMonkey »

I understand where Smidge is coming from. Even if the law can't take a direct legal route to shut B-T down, there are still many side routes they can take to get there. The law is never a single street. :? I'm still for the locking of a volume instead of having it removed, though it does carry some risks.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Smidge204 »

Const2k wrote:I'm fine with personal attacks as long as they have some payload that contributes to topic. However, I can't help but advise you to read carefully what you're replying to...

1. "Non-frozen project" doesn't qualify as a legally valid reason to sue someone in US.
Please explain how a project being "frozen" or "non-frozen" absolves the host from distribution of a copyrighted work that is already on the site and publicly available.

Const2k wrote:2. US licensee's text "word for word" hosted on B-T server located in US may give some problems to B-T.
Please cite laws or judicial precedence that supports your "must be word-for-word" claim. Also, the servers are in fact hosted in the US (Los Angeles California, specifically). Remember that copyright infringement suits are civil not criminal actions, which means "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply - all they have to do is suggest there is evidence to get it before a judge.

Const2k wrote:3. It's impossible for this text to appear on B-T wiki as long as editor's approval for posting it is required.
This entire argument, as I understand it, hinges upon #2 - that is, the text on B-T needs to be "exactly the same" as the licensed version. Not only is that an incorrect assumption, but the idea that the publisher would plant their own text on our site (falsifying evidence) is so absurd I honestly feel you must be joking. Even the RIAA and SCO - which between the two of them have done some of the most obscene contortions of copyright law ever witnessed - have not stooped that low.

Const2k wrote:"non-frozen project" != "copyright infringement"
Active or not, you are making available a copyrighted work. It's not even a derivative work which might, by some grace of God, manage to squeak past a judge after a strong legal defense... it's quite plainly a direct translation.

Const2k wrote:US laws don't apply outside of US territory
1) If this is your only stance then your entire argument hinges on the paper thin ideal that it would be licensed in, say, the UK but not in North America. That's kind of like playing legal "Russian Roulette." (*Hint: Canada and the US will happily enforce each other's copyrights, so that's out.)

2) That might not even be the case for much longer, if it's still is true at all. WIPO has been expanding their power and it's not a question of if treaties allow copyrights to be enforced across borders - they have since the late 1800's - but only how difficult it is to do so and if the publisher thinks it's worth the trouble.


I guess you really aren't that up on your copyright law. Maybe you should stop with the wishful thinking?

Const2k wrote:To sum up my arguments, proposed policy is an overkill. It won't protect B-T from legal actions, but it will harm B-T projects. This is simply wrong idea, and I'll never agree with it.

And I agree! The only way to actually protect B-T would be to delete the material, including revision history, so it is no longer publicly accessible and do so as soon as a licensing agreement has been made. This also means taking a very strong policy against distribution as B-T could also be liable for third parties continuing to distribute under B-T's name.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Jumpyshoes »

Quoting from wikipedia:
Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

* to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (mechanical rights; including, sometimes, electronic copies: distribution rights)
* to import or export the work
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly (performance rights)
* to sell or assign these rights to others
* to transmit or display by radio or video (broadcasting rights)
Again:
In the United States, "derivative work" is defined in 17 U.S.C. § 101:

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.
"Such as a translation".

Sorry, translations are illegal once copyrighted. They can sue B-T even if we host copyrighted material.

PS: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html <-- The definition of a "derivative work" is from Cornell's law school, I suspect it's pretty accurate. At least in the US.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

Understand that any legal licensed western publisher can easily take down any projects here, by simply sending a legally enforcible warning letter to thelastguardian.

Who has a non-negotiable policy of taking down any project immediately upon request.

this policy was submitted as a intermediate measure to protect our own fan translated version from being influenced and "contaminated" by the version that will be published in the future.

I know it might affect and harm the continuous evolution of the scripts we host, however i think the positive advantage of this policy far outweigh the other unfortunate consquence if we do nothing.

It is my hope that this will give a positive signal to our readers and the general novel translation scene that we are responsible within possible limits while stay faithful to our fundamental goal of helping and encouraging more people to be more interested in Japanese literature fiction and in the translation process as well.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

Jumpyshoes wrote:Quoting from wikipedia:
Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

* to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (mechanical rights; including, sometimes, electronic copies: distribution rights)
* to import or export the work
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly (performance rights)
* to sell or assign these rights to others
* to transmit or display by radio or video (broadcasting rights)
Again:
In the United States, "derivative work" is defined in 17 U.S.C. § 101:

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.
"Such as a translation".

Sorry, translations are illegal once copyrighted. They can sue B-T even if we host copyrighted material.

PS: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html <-- The definition of a "derivative work" is from Cornell's law school, I suspect it's pretty accurate. At least in the US.
So basically if we lock the volume, then our works cannot be based on their works, right? that should help secure B-T?

http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=177985
This post on the forum shows a newspaper article about that a certain company that sues people that downloads fansub animes saying that it causes losses for their company. I am not sure if it is the same case for our translations, but it may be possible too?

And in China, chinese translations for Harry Potter is not illegal
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20070728_1.htm
The lawyers say as long as it is for free and not commercial use.
When people like TONYMAK translate the ending of the leaked version of <Harry Potter 7>, is he guilty of violation of intellectual property rights? Lawyer Zheng Yan of the Beijing Haotian Xinhe Legal Office told this reporter: "Suppose that <Harry Potter 7> was released prematurely by overseas booksellers and that overseas netizens obtained the scan images of the original book through legal means. If the translation is done by netizens who include their own creativity and knowledge and they are not doing this for profit, there is no rights violation."

Previously, the media had interviewed the People's Publishing House about whether the Internet translations violated their rights. Director Sun Xunlin of the Planning Department said that most of the Internet translations are not doing so for profit and therefore they cannot be censured.
So it may be okay, as long as we do not profit and we do not go word for word?
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For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
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I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:
Jumpyshoes wrote:Quoting from wikipedia:
Again:
"Such as a translation".

Sorry, translations are illegal once copyrighted. They can sue B-T even if we host copyrighted material.

PS: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html <-- The definition of a "derivative work" is from Cornell's law school, I suspect it's pretty accurate. At least in the US.
So basically if we lock the volume, then our works cannot be based on their works, right? that should help secure B-T?

http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=177985
This post on the forum shows a newspaper article about that a certain company that sues people that downloads fansub animes saying that it causes losses for their company. I am not sure if it is the same case for our translations, but it may be possible too?

And in China, chinese translations for Harry Potter is not illegal
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20070728_1.htm
The lawyers say as long as it is for free and not commercial use.
When people like TONYMAK translate the ending of the leaked version of <Harry Potter 7>, is he guilty of violation of intellectual property rights? Lawyer Zheng Yan of the Beijing Haotian Xinhe Legal Office told this reporter: "Suppose that <Harry Potter 7> was released prematurely by overseas booksellers and that overseas netizens obtained the scan images of the original book through legal means. If the translation is done by netizens who include their own creativity and knowledge and they are not doing this for profit, there is no rights violation."

Previously, the media had interviewed the People's Publishing House about whether the Internet translations violated their rights. Director Sun Xunlin of the Planning Department said that most of the Internet translations are not doing so for profit and therefore they cannot be censured.
So it may be okay, as long as we do not profit and we do not go word for word?

Nice find SZH-kun!

:)

As to answer your question, i think you are right, as long as we keep our translated scripts as "creatively" diverse in its interpretation from the source material and clearly show it is free from any profit (we don't even collect donations!) then i think at leased in China, we are clear.

whew.

all we have to cover is North America and Western Europe then we are more or less sailing safe waters.

:P :lol: :roll:
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by jeromemmm »

me agreed... :wink:
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

polls looking good. i forgot how long this discussion was suppose to be open for, but i guess if the trend continues for another 2-3 months i'll deem it conclusive.
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