Published Locking Policy

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Voting: Published Locking Policy

Poll ended at Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:39 am

I agree with this policy
8
80%
I disagree with the details of this policy (Details)
0
No votes
I disagree with this policy completely (please state alternative)
2
20%
 
Total votes: 10

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onizuka-gto
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Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

Edit: Note that the project abandoning policies introduced May 1st, 2014 supersede the rules related to licensed project listed here.

Please refer to those policies instead.


Dear Staff & reader,

one of the main concern of this proposed policy is prevent blatant plagiarism.

specifically, when a novel series has been licensed to a English publisher, the concern stems that if we leave the concerned project script open to editing after the novel has been published for commercial purchase.

There might be a possibility that the concerning script would be alter to match the professional translation, that will eventually turn the script to reflect the published version, word for word.

This in my opinion, is not acceptable nor justified.

Our translation is the result of our community effort to understand and enjoy the process of translating and reading Japanese novels.

We must be firm to oppose any deliberate attempts, while still allow our community to enjoy our unique home grown scripts.

thus the tentative guidelines i wish to enforce are thus:
  • Published Locking Policy


    Project subjected to this policy must fulfil the following criteria:
  • Western Publisher has been confirmed
  • The Date of the published novel(s) has been confirmed

    Projects subjected to this policy will enforced with the following actions:
  • The project will display a clear warning, which will inform all involved, that the project is subjected to this policy.
  • Volumes that will be locked from further editing will be indicated and with an estimated date
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Dan
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Dan »

Great! Now how do we prevent our work from being plagerized?
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fiendmaw
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by fiendmaw »

That meaning how to prevent people from copying the text(I'm pretty confused here).
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by TheGiftedMonkey »

The only question I have is what date would the lock be on? Most likely the same day that Volume is released right?
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

Yes that's more or less the idea.

In regards to Fiendmaw & Dan's concern, no, there really isn't any way to prevent our own translation from being plagiarised.

But that's the reality of the Interweb.

However this is more or less a way to protect ourselves from accusation that we are copying the published materials and at the same time overwriting our unique translated version.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by TheGiftedMonkey »

Sounds good. I'm in agreement with this policy.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

So may i pose a question?
In this case, if a novel has a western publisher backing, but has yet to release the novel, do we allow translating?
If yes, if the date is set before the volume is completed, do we stop mid-way?
Next, in the case of SnS (Shakugan no Shana), two volumes are already published, but they have no intentions of continuing translation, and we were given the green light to go on, so in this case, do we start from volume 3? or...?

The rules seems pretty fine, just that i guess there are plenty of details to work on?
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Const2k »

onizuka-gto wrote:one of the main concern of this proposed policy is prevent blatant plagiarism.

specifically, when a novel series has been licensed to a English publisher, the concern stems that if we leave the concerned project script open to editing after the novel has been published for commercial purchase.
If I got it right, ZnT vol.1 won't have been removed from B-T wiki by the end of 2008 (or whenever it comes out)? Man, that makes my day.

Yet I can't see the reason behind this policy. I mean, I don't see a reason that would justify killing any and all progress in a given volume/project.

The most dangerous for B-T thing I can imagine is some "copyright holder" posting their own translation on B-T wiki, filing C&D letter, suing B-T admin and, ultimately, closing B-T. I think it's, pretty obviously, an absurd situation (though I, being Russian, can't tell for sure about US copyright laws): if they want us dead, any hi-res (and, AFAICT, no low-res images are located here) novel scan hosted on B-T server will do the job. Even if they'd go as far as I've written, copyrighted text would be easily detected and removed (edit reverted) by B-T stuff or readers themselves, making whole "operation"... impractical.
To prevent "non-malicious" users from posting copyrighted translation, we can simply post a warning template on project's pages, something like "this translation isn't official, and if we find sentences in your edit that match official translation, you'll be mercilessly tormented and killed in an awful way" :twisted:

Don't shoot sparrows from cannon, as Russians say. Proposed policy is IMHO an overkill.

If you really need to lock a project, leave it open for B-T stuff to edit. This way any contributor will have to ask, say, project editor to post his changes instead of him/her. Any "suspicious" edit simply won't be posted while "normal" ones will get B-T staff's approval and appear on the wiki. I guess you understand how I've just voted.

P.S. Of course, admins might have some reasons users don't need to know of, and I'll never complain about it, if it's the case. However, project locking kills the whole idea of wiki.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

Copyright is a legal concept, enacted by governments, giving the creator of an original work of authorship exclusive rights to it, usually for a limited time, after which the work enters the public domain. Generally, it is "the right to copy", but also gives the copyright holder the right to be credited for the work, to determine who may adapt the work to other forms, who may perform the work, who may financially benefit from it, and other, related rights. It is an intellectual property form (like the patent, the trademark, and the trade secret) applicable to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete.
Quoted from Wiki, as i am not too sure about laws myself... so basically i believe the copyright laws we focus on would be the "who may financially benefit from it" part... Since B-T is free, we may be taking business away from actual publishers.

So in response to what Const2k mentioned, though we know very well that we have done nothing wrong in this case, the publishers may not think so, as it is a loss in their case. they can indeed sue us, but the purpose would not be to close B-T, but i would rather say, make more earnings, that is the most logical idea.

One reason mentioned i believe is so that the text on B-T would not follow those of the copyrighted text, as the copyrighted text would be BELIEVED to be the ORIGINAL translations, even if it is not the case, and in turn, B-T would lose its purpose at the same time, so i believe the current solution is to lock a volume once it is out to avoid further editting, at the same time acting as proof that we are not infringing on their rights?

The reason B-T exists, i think, would be to share products that are unavailable due to language problems, thus, if a publisher publishes a volume in that language, it is obtainable, thus the need for us to share it is removed in a way.

In any case, i am still new to this forum, and not good at law, so if i make any mistakes here, please correct me, at the same time, feel free to edit my post if there is any irrelevant here.
God!!
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For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
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If you were created to save this world,
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I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Dan »

Const2k, as far as I can tell, Oni is simply proposing that we lock the project from further edits. Whether we take the project down for good is another issue we should look at - do we keep it up until we are notified we take it down or do so ourselves when the commercial version is released?
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by onizuka-gto »

In American terms, its just locking from further edits.

taking down projects is another issue altogether, which i'll save for later.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Krikit »

I agree with the published locking policy, even if I don't like it too much.

Shadow's right in that the main point of B-T is translating Japanese novels to another language, because it isn't in that language. After a publisher publishes the work in say english, then locking the page is the best thing to do. It's because it's no longer editable that B-T can counter argue a claim, saying this is the date this project was locked, so there is no way our text was copied from theirs, as well as saying if you want a "completed" version, you can buy the one from the publisher, thus making a way for the publisher to make a profit. Of course, whether the publishers version is "censored" or not is another matter....seems Haruhi might be edited. (rumor only, but the way their handling the project so far...)

Also look at Haruhi for an example. All the Volumes so far have been translated. All 10. Volume 1 isn't coming out until April 2009, right? B-T is "done" with the translations so far, but the first volume isn't coming published to another language for near around another year. I think by this time there won't be much need to edit a page in Volume 1, if you know what I mean.

I think it's a great way to help secure B-T even more from accusations about copyrighted work, and I don't know about you, but if B-T was completely shut down because we didn't freeze project "no-name," and a company filed a claim and sued to have B-T shut down...we'd lose Toradora! Spice and Wolf, the rest of Haruhi, etc the list goes on.

So to me, this is a necessary evil. Now to vote in the poll....^_^
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Const2k »

Dan and oni, criteria for locking volume down:
TGM: The only question I have is what date would the lock be on? Most likely the same day that Volume is released right?
oni: Yes that's more or less the idea.
is the same as for removing volume (according to somewhat hazy discussion in ZnT Licensed topic). This contradiction makes me think that instead of removing volume, it will be locked. This is better, but it still prohibits our translators from doing their job. And nobody has given me a good reason for doing that yet.
onizuka-gto wrote:There might be a possibility that the concerning script would be alter to match the professional translation, that will eventually turn the script to reflect the published version, word for word.
Const2k wrote:copyrighted text would be easily detected and removed (edit reverted) by B-T stuff or readers themselves
...after all, what project editors/supervisors/admins are there for? It's pretty hard for editor to miss a major edit of all pages in a volume.
Krikit wrote:I think it's a great way to help secure B-T even more from accusations about copyrighted work, and I don't know about you, but if B-T was completely shut down because we didn't freeze project "no-name," and a company filed a claim and sued to have B-T shut down...
It's a great way to stop our own translations that make "unique home grown scripts". Besides, even in US, there's no legal way to shut down B-T under reason of "non-frozen project". We must have US licensee's text "word for word" hosted on our server located in US for B-T to get some problems. Probability of it is next to zero, because (see above). To be short, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE in real life. Yet oni's going to make our projects suffer FOR REAL. I'll never agree with this. If only project stuff (proven & trusted members) can edit project, thereby allowing its progress, I won't be against it.
I know that my opinion alone won't change an outcome, but I just can't stay silent on this matter. Because B-T projects (especially ZnT) are important to me.
Last edited by Const2k on Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added missing link to topic
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by Krikit »

Okay...so...let me see. Is the only way a company can sue for lost revenue/have a site shut down, etc, ONLY if the text is word for word?

Then was the proposed counter-measure to lock a project, so that it couldn't be made to look like XXXX Company's novel release?

Alot of these translators want to have the most accurate translation, right? So they work hard translating themselves, so they know it's creditable. The translators can, and I am sure will put out their own "home-grown" ideas, in other words they will put out the translations they worked out. Most likely they won't use another english book, as there's no guarantee of that book not being censored, or changed in some way.

So I'm thinking a "middle of the fence" idea now. I think it must be noted that if a translator wishes to continue with a work, then they should be able to do so. However, it's also true B-T needs to protect itself from malicious or otherwise "copied" edits. Here's where an idea comes in, tell me what you think Oni.

What if a project that was liscensed, was changed in "access?" I mean, instead of freezing the whole project, what if the project was simply locked to editing from anyone, with the exception of a specific account or two? In otherwords, you make "joe-shmoe" able to edit the page, but only "joe-shmoe." No other user or anonymous person can edit that project. This way, you know that translator "joe-shmoe" is the only one able to edit/translate. And before "joe-shmoe" (love that name =)) gets "account edit status" for that page and can edit, they have to go to the admins and ask for permission to be allowed to edit said project, that way the admins know the only one editing the project, and can make sure he/she isn't someone who would just retype or paste in the text from the already published novel?

What about something like that? I know it seems like more of a hassle, but is it something plausible? Until I hear yeas or neas, my vote stays in agreement with the current locking policy.
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Re: Published Locking Policy

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

Const2k wrote:Dan and oni, criteria for locking volume down:
TGM: The only question I have is what date would the lock be on? Most likely the same day that Volume is released right?
oni: Yes that's more or less the idea.
is the same as for removing volume (according to somewhat hazy discussion in ZnT Licensed topic). This contradiction makes me think that instead of removing volume, it will be locked. This is better, but it still prohibits our translators from doing their job. And nobody has given me a good reason for doing that yet.
The reason being that the translations are meant for novels that are not made in that language, and not a free service for all to read, as that would be putting B-T against quite a number of publishers if they ever start translating such novels. At the same time B-T can also be seen as a measure of the popularity for a series...

So the reason of locking the volume is because it is made available, thus there is no need to read the fan-translated version online. This is the same as the people telling you to go buy the actual anime if you like the fansub version, instead of telling you, "hey you can download and watch them anytime, so dont bother buying the product when it is out."
Const2k wrote:
Const2k wrote:copyrighted text would be easily detected and removed (edit reverted) by B-T stuff or readers themselves
...after all, what project editors/supervisors/admins are there for? It's pretty hard for editor to miss a major edit of all pages in a volume.
This is not a commericial company, i am not sure if anyone spends that much time to keep editing the translations. but in order to find the copyrighted text, one must obtain a copy of the actual one? and have to read through the lines one by one? furthermore, there may be instances when the texts are similar, as a line may only be translated in a way or two at times. The ones to really define whether we are infringing copyright laws are sadly not us, so it is better to play it safe. . and i am not sure if there are supervisors for the translations, but editors can be anyone, and that includes someone who might change the text into the one sold by publishers, and we wont know it since we dont compare word for word, nor are we able to keep track of every single edit. Of course, if you are able to contact the publisher and get them to give us a green light to show our translations, we do not need to lock it, but i doubt that will happen.
Const2k wrote:It's a great way to stop our own translations that make "unique home grown scripts". Besides, even in US, there's no legal way to shut down B-T under reason of "non-frozen project".
I am not exactly sure of US laws, but in Singapore, there was a dumb case of a company suing people for downloading animes from the net, claiming it causes major loss in the company, though NO SINGLE SANE PERSON would agree to its claims. Yet they still managed to earn a hell lot of money from this. And similarly, a publisher can also make such a claim, since reading from B-T may cause people to not want to buy the product that is published. So by locking the volume, it is to say that our work is earlier, and has no relation with theirs. If they do intend to continue making a fuss, B-T would have to take down the series if a publisher demands such an action to be taken. There is no way for B-T to protect itself, so we can only take precautions to minimize the chances of all these problems happening.

P.S. IMPOSSIBLE in real life is not true, read the Singapore case to find out how insane people can be. That company can demand payment from a 9-year old, and also someone once did a calculation that the so-called losses they claim would need the people to almost spend 5-6years just watching animes non-stop, and yet they can win the case to get payment. THAT is reality.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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