Shami "not fastidious", etc.

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Nutcase
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Shami "not fastidious", etc.

Post by Nutcase »

The originally-talkative tri-colored male cat had completely lost its voice, and established its status in our home as merely a pet. It had become a nondescript cat found everywhere – as if I had hallucinated that this cat had ever spoken in human language, now that I thought about it. The cat is great and not fastidious: its purrs are seldom, close to absent, as if it has forgotten cat language along with human language. Somehow it made my room its bed, and thus grew silent to the frequent dropping by of my sister, who is avid in taking care of Shamisen.
a nondescript cat found everywhere

Tricolor male cats can't be "found anywhere," though Kyon may not realize it. Tricolor males are XXY, i.e. they have an extra chromosome. The tricolor pattern arises because the body of the cat is a mosaic of patches with one or the other X chromosome activated, with another gene that isn't on the X "whiting out" much of the coat.

I see ambiguous indications that characters in the story understand this point. I think it likely that that author understands. This is just a heads-up for translators.

is great and not fastidious This doesn't quite make sense. There's nothing "great" about a cat that isn't clean. "Not fussy" would seem closer to the point of an easy-going, tolerant cat.

thus grew silent This also doesn't quite make sense. Shami was never talkative about the sister, was he? So what sense does it make to say that he grew silent? Perhaps "thus is silent."

Alternatively, perhaps it's Kyon who is growing silent to his sister's intrusions.
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Umiman
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Post by Umiman »

I think you're placing these complaints to the wrong people. Regardless of whether the translation is accurate or not, the meaning should still be the same. I.e: It's the author himself who wrote the facts, not the translators.

Cat colouration:
In the world of manga and anime, tricolour cats are the norm. Besides, what Kyon is referring to is not the breed of the cat, but rather the cat is now normal in the sense that it doesn't speak anymore. That's what he means when he says it can be found anywhere.

Greatness and fussiness:
There is nothing in the text that suggests the cat is dirty. Also, what Kyon derives as great is probably not it's cleaniness, but the fact that it doesn't do anything so he doesn't have to take care of it. Fastidious is just a complicated way of saying fussy.

silentness:
I partially agree with this one. "thus grew silent" seems out of place.

EDIT: This topic reminds me of
http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=0PBF42028 ... ven.jpg#44
...Tg...g.g........... And Kol Ravensabbey cried,
..g...B...g........@.. "In Armok's name!!!!"
T...T..B..g........... And there was bloodshed.
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

Honestly? I think you're trying way, way too hard :D

a nondescript cat found everywhere: It's clear he is referring to the cat's behavior rather than physical appearance. ie: It's just a normal cat. It's obvious Kyon knows the cat is rather unique genetically (see his comments in Vol 2 Ch 5 when Haruhi picks it up.)

is great and not fastidious: We use the American Heritage Dictionary as per the UFG. Fastidious sense 2 and 3 fit this description very well (haven't checked the Japanese text, though, but it's not really a word that needs contending)

thus grew silent: I would take this to mean the cat stopped complaining about being handled by Kyon's sister (not necessarily in a vocal manner, though perhaps it would meow in objection). "Grow" is perfectly suitable here since we can assume Kyon's sister still gets her hands on the cat from time to time, but taking refuge in Kyon's bedroom has placated it enough to stop objecting.

Kyon rarely handles the cat, and usually just pets it where it lays if he touches it at all.
=Smidge=
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

Okay, I see. Thanks for pointing me at the dictionary. "Fastidious" in my experience has a shifted meaning, but I certainly accept the dictionary as referee. "Fussy" might be minutely preferable as a more casual term with fewer syllables...shrug.

I still don't think the "grew silent" is quite right, but without the "fastidious" issue, it's not worth the attention.

Finally, on the tricolor point,
It was a spotted cat, not to mention it's male. Yet Haruhi had no idea how much of a pedigree this cat had, and she wasn't in awe by the cat she had randomly picked up,
"Spotted" isn't obviously tricolor. The overall context does imply that the cat is tricolor and that Kyon understands that this is highly unusual, but verification on this point in the translation is far down-stream. As a reader, I found it unnecessarily obscure. This could be cured by substituting "tricolor" or "tricolor spotted" -- unless the author actually intended to make the point obscure. Which would be a bit odd.

Also Haruhi should be either "not in awe of" or "not awed by." But that's not the sort of small point that needs discussion.


I will try hard not to try too hard. :D Thanks again.
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

Better to have these discussions than not, so don't be discouraged!

I don't think your average reader will understand that a 3-color cat is truly unique, although the "no idea how much of a pedigree this cat had" line suggests that it is indeed a special cat, and I think that's all the reader really needs. "Spotted" is thrown in there so the reader can get a quick visual.

=Smidge=
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

What the "average reader" gets...I agree, but is that a relevant standard as regards editing? You and I, Kyon and of course the author understand the "hidden magic" in a tricolor male cat. Haruhi and the "average reader" don't. If we edit out all the "hidden magic," Haruhi at least would throw the book down, saying, "this is totally boring! Totally!" The hidden magic isn't the same as no magic. And obscure references aren't the same as no references. So I say the tricolor nature of the cat should probably be easy to see, as Haruhi could see it plainly.

However, I say this with no direct view of the original text, and I understand that factors outside my view may strongly shade your judgement in any particular instance.
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

How about this: Create a hyperlink on the word "pedigree" that goes to the chapter's discussion page, and add a short blurb there about the unique qualities of tri-colored cats.

In other words, make it a footnote!
=Smidge=
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

Putting in a footnote might well make sense. However, it doesn't address the central point here which is that Shamisen's tricolor nature is never, ever explicitly established in the translation of Vol. 2 Chapter 5. He is described as "spotted". There is also an illustration, but it is monochrome. However, I suppose he might be understood as tricolor by Japanese artistic convention, given the two-tone representation of his markings.

The fact that Shamisen is tricolor is established in the anime the moment he appears on the screen, and his maleness is in evidence when he speaks.

Does the author somehow establish that Shamisen is tricolor in the original Japanese? Or is the author's original intent on this point to leave the reader guessing?
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ellimist
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Post by ellimist »

Hmmm...i'm just chancing a guess here, Nutcase, but i think during the translation of Vol.2 the translators didn't really notice the distinct colours of Shami, but in that particular paragraph, since the author was trying to imply about how everything's back to normal (i.e. kyon's idea of making haruhi say out that disclaimer at the end of their club-produced movie), the main focus is on Shami himself, hence they'd naturally pay more attention to the author's description, and thus described him in greater detail (and accuracy), and therein lies the discrepancy btw that paragraph and why it wasn't established back in vol 2 chapter 5.

of course, i could be dead wrong, but we'd only know if the translators would care to comment. :D
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HolyCow
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Post by HolyCow »

Oh I know! I'm a translator and I'd like to comment!

Truth its, it wasn't me who translated this volume :D

Now you can go on living your lives as usual. Just ignore this post :P
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/me claws out throat and dies
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ellimist
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Post by ellimist »

ahem. Let me rephrase that. We'll only know if the RELEVANT translators would care to comment. :wink: XD
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Kinny Riddle
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Post by Kinny Riddle »

It wasn't me that translated the first half of vol 4, where this passage comes from, that's for sure.

Though I did translate almost the whole vol 2, I didn't notice anything particular about the description of Shamisen's features when translating his first appearance.
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

Maybe we should shift discussion on this particular point to Vol 2?

I came to this story through the anime, and so I noticed the tricolor and probably male cat very early; even before the cat spoke, the size implied male. However, at that point I couldn't assess at all whether this was just an ignorant blunder on the part of the animators or an intentional anomaly, along with the cat talking. Shortly into the second episode, the brilliance of the whole thing made the ignorant blunder theory seem unlikely.

In reading the story, the cat appears in Volume 2. I know it's tricolor from the anime, but the description and illustration are ambiguous. Yet Kyon makes the remark about pedigree, strongly implying the "hidden in plain sight" magic of a ticolor male.

I just don't see what the author could intend by hiding from readers the "magic in plain sight" that Kyon takes note of. It seems more congruent with the overall style that this point would be established plainly, just as it is in the anime. However, I can easily understand that this is the sort of small point that can fall through the cracks in translation.
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

The problem is, anime is a visual medium and it would be nearly impossible to disguise the cat's coloration.

In the novels, the uniqueness fo the cat is spread out all over the place. In this way the reader is not overwhelmed by the cat's very minor role throughout the series. Suggesting the pedigree in the cat in in this case, how well behaved, passive and parasite-free he is despite living in the wild for who knows how long, etc.

To spend an entire paragraph explaining why the cat is so special would break the flow of the story. It is enough that the reader gets hints here and there about how special the cat is if only for the fact that Haruhi has picked it.

Maybe it's just me, though, since I don't believe everything needs to be spelled out.
=Smidge=
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Umiman
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Post by Umiman »

/Agree with Smidge.

Honestly, you're blowing this way out of proportion. It's just a minute character and the quality of the cat has absolutely no impact on the story.
...Tg...g.g........... And Kol Ravensabbey cried,
..g...B...g........@.. "In Armok's name!!!!"
T...T..B..g........... And there was bloodshed.
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