Rule for Editor?

[LiTTleDRAgo]

There are some editor that I find "hard to deal with" in the wiki, he believed that every project that translated into english "should be edited to make sense in english as possible". While I think his belief is good, he does it way too far (changing the novel's sentence, writing style, structure or adding something that not exist in the raw, etc) that when I read them it looks like a different novel.

It seems he also gets a conflict with other project supervisor because his belief. Talking with him is probably pointless since he believed his way is the right one. Honestly at first I was hesitated whether ban him for eternity or not (but I decided not to since I still unsure whether he is doing good or bad).

http://baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php ... #AMA_35_TP
http://baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php ... d.27s_Edit

Is there any standarized rule for editor in this community? Does BT allow the translation to be edited in "english style" while ignoring the "RAW / original author style"?

I also ask your opinion in this case as well in case for encountering someone similar to him in the future.

[krytyk]

Mosswind... that guy... I thought about forwarding the issue to oni before, however after I banned him for a day, he stopped bothering me and editing my project (thankfully). First, translator should be probably the one to decide the ultimate shape of the translations. First, the translator is the one who does the work, and makes sure that the project is accurately conveying everything original novel has, including the specific style. It's up to said translator if he accepts the edits or not, I'm all for making the flow better and I completely approve it. However, what that mosswind guy did before was altering the original novel style under pretence of "english styling" "well englished" making it lose the meaning, moreover he added new lines of text that did not exist in original novel, while there was no actual need for them. That goes over what you call editing, it goes to realm of altering. While I know of some official publishers who heavily alter the content to "westernize" it, the best publishers nowadays make sure to retain the original style. While I could continue the wall of text and rant about this, I'll stop for now and try to summarize below.

As far as I am concerned there's no specific rules on BT about "westernizing" the novels, however it's up to project supervisor/translator to decide whether they accept such edits or not.

Mosswind is pretty much a troll editor, if you look at his talk page you'll get what I mean, he thinks he's doing something right, and yet he does more harm than he helps, moreover he's hotheaded and starts insulting people left and right when he's denied. Did I mention he "reported" me to ping (it should be still on ping's talk page) saying that I'm a cruel dictator who goes out at night to harm puppies and eat kittens? Or that he spammed one of my project's editor's talk page saying how bad of a person I am? (this one's on taesar's talk page).

Anyway, while my opinion might be biased, I think it should be up to supervisor or translator - case the supervisor isn't the translator, whether he accepts something like that within his project or not. Also I do think that any major edits like the one that guy does (especially that they're mostly harmful) should be consulted with project translator in charge of the target volume.

Also, DRAgo,

[Cthaeh]

Well, the one thing that doesn't work against that user is that the issue of who has supervision or control over submitted works is a little ambiguous, at least in that I think it could be elaborated on more explicitly. From spending some time on BT, it becomes more obvious that the accepted policy is that the translator has the ultimate control over how their translations are handled (hopefully not in conflict with the supervisor for projects with multiple translators). However, the editor guidelines do say that major edits should be posted on discussion pages so that translators and supervisors can review. So the ambiguity in the general custodian policy isn't really an excuse.

As for the issue of whether things can be changed to "English style," I think that's a version of the recurring liberalization vs literalization debate (here's one thread on it). My personal opinion leans pretty heavily on the liberalization side, but I acknowledge the translator's choice, and I just avoid projects that have too much of the "raw" style for my tastes.

An issue that is unrelated to either of the above is that all users should be polite. And some of the communications in question are unnecessarily hostile.

[Hiyono]

The adage "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" seems particularly apropos here.

More generally speaking, however, it's very difficult to establish any sort of rules or even guidelines in this respect, given the nature of B-T and the philosophies of the translators involved. That said, there's definitely room for clarification when it comes to how much "ownership" translators have over their work.

[Misogi]

If he had proposed the changes beforehand, then there would be no problems.

Actually, if he wanted to edit the way he does, he should communicate with the translator, but well, seeing his attitude...

For now, he must be kept under watch. If he works on another project, tell it asap.

[Drowzycow]

I feel his edits in Log Horizon haven't actually been that drastic.

Just looking through some of his proposed changes for v6c2, they haven't changed the underlying source material they are stylistic issues.

His first issue was how to show thoughts- the use of brackets or italics. Which at the moment is mixed in this project. This isn't a right or wrong issue; like past tense/present issue decide which one we will be used and editors will stick to it I'm sure and there will be no arguments.

His other point lay in making it clearer who is speaking. He's been doing this by closing the paragraph between the dialogue and next piece of text which usually mentions who spoke. I personally don't think this is necessary in those parts since it's quite clear who spoke. I do get his point, that some dialogue does get confusing and in those parts editors should intervene. The most recent place I did it was on this section of text:

Code: Select all

It was hard to stomach, but the young man, wearing a ponytail despite being a man, was one of the top ranked vanguards in the server. Soujirou Seta, guild master of West Wind Brigade. Akatsuki couldn't match up to him in either fame or achievement. But even the renowned Soujirou couldn't suppress this dark Murderer.

"Run!"

She could tell Soujirou's response from the corners of his lips rising. His strong eyes looked towards Akatsuki. He might look younger than Akatsuki, but Akatsuki instinctively knew she wouldn't want to see his intimidating side. Regardless, Akatsuki was still fighting like a mini hurricane.

"Why?"

Soujirou asked so naturally that Akatsuki was dumbstruck.

She just yelled on reflex. Akatsuki herself didn't even know why she did that. The monstrous Person of the Land outmatched Akatsuki by far.  

This initially confused me on first reading since Soujirou's name came up twice; for clarity the text was adjusted to "Run!" yelled Akatsuki.

Too many times in LN's on this site, I have found myself confused as to who is talking. Japanese novels have no problem in stringing 4 - 6 spoken lines one after another. However, in English, this is unacceptable.

I've read plenty of novels where this is done in English with no problem, as long as the dialogue is done between two characters. If they are more it may necessary to insert a x said when a third party injects. Again should be decided on a case by case basis.

[Detalz]

Like drowzy, I don't think his edits are as drastic as you make it out to be. Yes, his edits are definitely more wide-scale and do in fact alter sentence structure to a more 'Engish' style, but this is just a matter of preference. And yes, this does make managing his edits far more difficult.

In terms of what he does change, I personally don't see anything wrong with them except changing ( ) that represents thoughts into italics. But again, this isn't wrong, considering how the instead of using brackets to represent speech in Japanese raws, we use quotes, while the ( ) does not turn into italics. I suspect this is likely something the starting translations did, and thus have set this as the precedent for the 'standard' format that most novels follow. If you use the "stick close to the raws" argument, then speech should be represented in [] instead of "" as well, as the Chinese Raws apparently do. But it isn't, so that logic is flawed. That's why I understand all the edits he makes and where he's coming from. In fact, I support most of them. That's my opinion. But as Project Supervisor, you have the right to tell him what he can and cannot change. That's just how the hierarchy works. You should be more specific than "do not change sentence structure" and specifically forbid certain instances of changes (i.e. do not change () to italics, etc...), and he'll just have to follow them even if he doesn't like it.

He comes off as a bit rude, but I do think he has the best interests in mind.

P.S. On a side note, I highly recommend you fix the V4C2 title to "A Lazy, Cowardly Princess" and V6C2 to "Cracked Wing" or "Fractured Wing(preferred)". The V6C2 is definitely a misspelling, which he was right about. He just guessed wrong. I know you want to use what the Author wrote out in English...but when he's wrong, he's wrong.

[larethian]

Actually, I agree with much of what Mosswind said in terms of readability. But it's up to the translator to see whether he/she wants to accept these edits on his/her work. If a translator wants to keep it original to his/her ideal (even if it might be a bad idea) and sacrifice readability in the process, it can't be helped, since the translations technically belong to the translator. But I suggest more communication and reach a consensus on it.

[LiTTleDRAgo]

I see, since there is no restriction for english style / original style then I guess I can allow such edit.

[An outsider]

Well, I am just an outsider lurking for a while, but this incident reminded me of a similar occurence a while ago: Zero2001's case, only much more rude.

Maybe Mosswind was right about a few things(which I actually doubt it) but his way of "discussion" and doing the edits without notifying people involved in the project, i.e. the supervisors, translators and editors has no excuse imo. He basically ignored many people by doing that, and when they reverted his edits, he went ballistic.That would just send a bad message to others, especially the translators who then might withdraw his translation. Not to mention his statement: Once a translator post the translations online, they are all of ours(I'll read it as him) .
Not only that he is wrong, he also denying translator's right for his or her translation, which is clearly stated on TLG Translation Common Agreement.

For Log Horizon, skythewood has already gave his permission for others to do anything with his translations(except probably selling them),so anyone can edit them, but the final says on the wiki probably fall on the supervisor (LiTTleDRAgo). From what I've seen, LiTTleDRAgo is quite tolerant. So it is up to him/her to accept Mosswind's "better" edits (To be honest I preferred the original ones, since it has Mamare's feel)

And for Magic academy, I have no choice but to say that Mosswind is totally at fault here. Not only he overstepped his boundaries, he is also rude, making false accusations, and badmouthing others, he also dismissed the translator's right.

Well I am just an outsider, so don't take this seriously. this is just my view of things~

[krytyk]

Like drowzy, I don't think his edits are as drastic as you make it out to be. Yes, his edits are definitely more wide-scale and do in fact alter sentence structure to a more 'Engish' style, but this is just a matter of preference. And yes, this does make managing his edits far more difficult.

In terms of what he does change, I personally don't see anything wrong with them except changing ( ) that represents thoughts into italics. But again, this isn't wrong, considering how the instead of using brackets to represent speech in Japanese raws, we use quotes, while the ( ) does not turn into italics. I suspect this is likely something the starting translations did, and thus have set this as the precedent for the 'standard' format that most novels follow. If you use the "stick close to the raws" argument, then speech should be represented in [] instead of "" as well, as the Chinese Raws apparently do. But it isn't, so that logic is flawed. That's why I understand all the edits he makes and where he's coming from. In fact, I support most of them. That's my opinion. But as Project Supervisor, you have the right to tell him what he can and cannot change. That's just how the hierarchy works. You should be more specific than "do not change sentence structure" and specifically forbid certain instances of changes (i.e. do not change () to italics, etc...), and he'll just have to follow them even if he doesn't like it.

He comes off as a bit rude, but I do think he has the best interests in mind.

P.S. On a side note, I highly recommend you fix the V4C2 title to "A Lazy, Cowardly Princess" and V6C2 to "Cracked Wing" or "Fractured Wing(preferred)". The V6C2 is definitely a misspelling, which he was right about. He just guessed wrong. I know you want to use what the Author wrote out in English...but when he's wrong, he's wrong.

Quite easy to retort to any kinds of accusations that appear in here.

First of all, I do not discourage changes, however I do discourage changing things on your own.

Long time before Mosswind made any of his edits, I have made:
http://baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php ... erminology

This page, it includes all the guidelines for editors on how to edit the project, also all of it is up for discussion, and I did make a separate irc channel on rizon for any editor that wishes to make changes to the specific project, on which I sit actively nearly 15 hours a day - alone, waiting for anyone who wants to discuss just about anything concerning the novel. I make a lot of effort supporting editors, so that the quality of the novel can improve.

But if someone comes by and tramples on all these efforts, disregards specific guidelines I have made to maintain consistency - and changes things without consultation. I will act and revert these changes.

Also, while some of the changes he made were actually good, the others that also looked good weren't in fact that good from the perspective of a translator as they falsified the original content - which I do try avoid as much as possible. If anyone wants to make so much changes, he's free to contact me anytime and discuss them, and adapt these changes to fit after speaking with me.

But a random patrolling editor coming in and changing randomly? Sorry, I won't let it. And if it is decided that I'm not allowed to do that, I'll find another place to spread the fan-made translations. That would be really unfortunate, since I greatly appreciate work of the editors who work on the project, and they're doing amazing job while I only occasionally have to revert a single sentence or adapt their edits to fit more. And the improved quality serves the audience well.

[Drowzycow]

I've only checked out the first two edits of Mosswind related to the AntiMagic project. Some of it reads better grammar-wise. It's not "westernizing" the text, it's better english grammar. Preventing spliced sentences (the run on sentences caused from the jap>eng) is something most editors should be trying to fix.

Original

"To be exact, you've been disqualified, which means you can obtain qualifications once again. Starting today you're no longer a member of Inquisition, but just a student of Antimagic Academy."

Sougetsu Ootori, Antimagic Academy's and the Inquisition Board's president said that while smiling faintly. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female, it held unique coerciveness and charm.

vs

Mosswind's

"To be exact, you've been disqualified, which means you can obtain the qualifications once again. Starting today you're no longer a member of Inquisition, but just a student of Anti-Magic Academy."

stated Sougetsu Ootori, while smiling faintly. He was president of both the Anti-Magic Academy and the Inquisition Board. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female; it held an unique coerciveness and charm.

Breaking this down:

AntiMagic vs Anti-Magic
Comes down to original usage from author- its AntiMagic in the cover. Like some of the crazy spellings we have in Log Horizon on Maryele and Krusty the clown. Mosswind will have to get over it, otherwise you get into arguements over why is it antimagic in the first place when you have vocab like countermagic available.

This is one of those long run on sentences, that I think an editor will try to juggle around. Personally would have went with something like ...said Sougetsu Ootori with a faint smile, president of both the Anti-Magic Academy and the Inquisition Board. Point here is the wording is a little awkward to an english reader. The underlying meaning of the text isn't being changed by both Mosswind's and my edits, so I wouldn't call this a major change, but I feel people would but this up as an example of editor's changing an author's writing style-which it isn't. An example of changing an author's writing style would be

Code: Select all

"............"

The girl knowing the reason remained speechless. 

Mosswind changes "speechless" to "silent". This is up to Krytyk who can TLC this, if it's a better fit to what the author actually intended.

The second bit is just better use of grammar. The ; is used to separate the two lists/show a show a change in thought/direct of the text. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female; it held an unique coerciveness and charm.

All the above changes I don't think fall under the major changes label that some are making it out to be. The underlying meaning of the text isn't being changed, so even if I was making these changes, I wouldn't be asking a translator in the discussions tab before making them.

On an edit like:

Original
It's been 150 years since the witch hunting war ended those who use magic, witches and sorcerers are low in numbers, resulting in status quo. People that are classified as ''witches'' are not allowed to have children, so outside of rare mutations, people born with magical power are rare.

Vs Mosswind's
It's been 150 years since the Witch Hunt War ended; those who use magic, witches and sorcerers, are low in numbers; this resulted in a particular standard. People that are classified as ''witches'' are not allowed to have children; so, outside of rare mutations, people born with magical power are rare.

An edit like that I might stick in the discussion page, simply asking for clarification on the meaning behind it. More likely tho I would stick in a suggested reading using the hidden comments/remarks into the wiki directly. <!-- ...are low in numbers, resulting in this situation. status quo sounds abit odd here--> sort of thing.



On the issue of rudeness, I can see where both are coming from.

Code: Select all

Edits that change content itself and decided terms will be undone without mercy and ignoring the "good corrections" --Krytyk

I just noticed you undid my changes for the chapter one for antimagic academy. I would like to ask why and also I would like to ask why you did so without even  consulting me? - Mosswind(guessing since unsigned)
            
I'd like to ask you why are you changing terms in my translation project without consulting it, moreover especially that I made an irc channel for any editor who wants to change something major. Like terms, or adding text that is unneccesary and is not there in original japanese raw. That's it, thanks and bye. --Krytyk

*Queue massive blowup that follows*

Working on edits for an hour and seeing them undone, asking for an explanation but getting "That's it, thanks and bye" as part of the reply can rub someone the wrong way. Not saying Krytyk is wrong (he made perfectly clear the hours he's spent working on the thing, the terminology page and project specific guidelines are some of the most detailed I've seen for any project); the offending "Anti-Magic, additions of prodded Sougetsu, Ouka replied" are enough to warrant an undo (since the additions could be described as straight up vandalism, no different to some anon-editors adding the colour illustrations to revelant parts of the text; while well-meaning they aren't supposed to be there) but equally could be said, that since you did consider some of the other edits to be good, just remove the edits/terms you think were bad and continue working on the editing in a constructive manner.

This thing has been handled badly on both sides.

[krytyk]

I've only checked out the first two edits of Mosswind related to the AntiMagic project. Some of it reads better grammar-wise. It's not "westernizing" the text, it's better english grammar. Preventing spliced sentences (the run on sentences caused from the jap>eng) is something most editors should be trying to fix.

Original

"To be exact, you've been disqualified, which means you can obtain qualifications once again. Starting today you're no longer a member of Inquisition, but just a student of Antimagic Academy."

Sougetsu Ootori, Antimagic Academy's and the Inquisition Board's president said that while smiling faintly. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female, it held unique coerciveness and charm.

vs

Mosswind's

"To be exact, you've been disqualified, which means you can obtain the qualifications once again. Starting today you're no longer a member of Inquisition, but just a student of Anti-Magic Academy."

stated Sougetsu Ootori, while smiling faintly. He was president of both the Anti-Magic Academy and the Inquisition Board. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female; it held an unique coerciveness and charm.

Breaking this down:

AntiMagic vs Anti-Magic
Comes down to original usage from author- its AntiMagic in the cover. Like some of the crazy spellings we have in Log Horizon on Maryele and Krusty the clown. Mosswind will have to get over it, otherwise you get into arguements over why is it antimagic in the first place when you have vocab like countermagic available.

This is one of those long run on sentences, that I think an editor will try to juggle around. Personally would have went with something like ...said Sougetsu Ootori with a faint smile, president of both the Anti-Magic Academy and the Inquisition Board. Point here is the wording is a little awkward to an english reader. The underlying meaning of the text isn't being changed by both Mosswind's and my edits, so I wouldn't call this a major change, but I feel people would but this up as an example of editor's changing an author's writing style-which it isn't. An example of changing an author's writing style would be

Code: Select all

"............"

The girl knowing the reason remained speechless. 

Mosswind changes "speechless" to "silent". This is up to Krytyk who can TLC this, if it's a better fit to what the author actually intended.

The second bit is just better use of grammar. The ; is used to separate the two lists/show a show a change in thought/direct of the text. His appearance and movement could be described as neither male nor female; it held an unique coerciveness and charm.

All the above changes I don't think fall under the major changes label that some are making it out to be. The underlying meaning of the text isn't being changed, so even if I was making these changes, I wouldn't be asking a translator in the discussions tab before making them.

On an edit like:

Original
It's been 150 years since the witch hunting war ended those who use magic, witches and sorcerers are low in numbers, resulting in status quo. People that are classified as ''witches'' are not allowed to have children, so outside of rare mutations, people born with magical power are rare.

Vs Mosswind's
It's been 150 years since the Witch Hunt War ended; those who use magic, witches and sorcerers, are low in numbers; this resulted in a particular standard. People that are classified as ''witches'' are not allowed to have children; so, outside of rare mutations, people born with magical power are rare.

An edit like that I might stick in the discussion page, simply asking for clarification on the meaning behind it. More likely tho I would stick in a suggested reading using the hidden comments/remarks into the wiki directly. <!-- ...are low in numbers, resulting in this situation. status quo sounds abit odd here--> sort of thing.



On the issue of rudeness, I can see where both are coming from.

Code: Select all

Edits that change content itself and decided terms will be undone without mercy and ignoring the "good corrections" --Krytyk

I just noticed you undid my changes for the chapter one for antimagic academy. I would like to ask why and also I would like to ask why you did so without even  consulting me? - Mosswind(guessing since unsigned)
            
I'd like to ask you why are you changing terms in my translation project without consulting it, moreover especially that I made an irc channel for any editor who wants to change something major. Like terms, or adding text that is unneccesary and is not there in original japanese raw. That's it, thanks and bye. --Krytyk

*Queue massive blowup that follows*

Working on edits for an hour and seeing them undone, asking for an explanation but getting "That's it, thanks and bye" as part of the reply can rub someone the wrong way. Not saying Krytyk is wrong (he made perfectly clear the hours he's spent working on the thing, the terminology page and project specific guidelines are some of the most detailed I've seen for any project); the offending "Anti-Magic, additions of prodded Sougetsu, Ouka replied" are enough to warrant an undo (since the additions could be described as straight up vandalism, no different to some anon-editors adding the colour illustrations to revelant parts of the text; while well-meaning they aren't supposed to be there) but equally could be said, that since you did consider some of the other edits to be good, just remove the edits/terms you think were bad and continue working on the editing in a constructive manner.

This thing has been handled badly on both sides.

I'll sum it up rudely, I don't have time to wipe mosswind's ass every time he makes an edit because he goes overboard in too many areas. Simple as that. There are rules for editors even disregarding the specific guidelines that are posted, such as asking supervisor for permission before making major changes. He is to blame himself only for arbitrarily changing content on his own. If he can't cooperate and abide with rules he should not try editing a project that's strictly supervised. And yeah, an hour of his time hardly equals to hundreds of hours spent at translating the content - just if you were to emphasize how evil I am for being strict and deleting his 1h of changes, in which there was a lot of those that were invalid.

I've seen projects that were left behind by translators after finishing up translations, and I've seen those which turned into something completely different losing a lot of it's original content to constant changes, there's a lot of meanings lost in the process of translation from Japanese to English, or Japanese to Chinese to English, but what some of editors do, even though they have the best intentions, is far beyond that.

[Lery]

Heck, it's a shame it turned that way.

The problem is that he seems me to be right on some topics, while being totally wrong in the ways he's doing it.

And yet, I think he's not doing it to do evil, but actually really intends to make the texts more "English"... Which should be the role of the editors, as I understand it.
Still, I totally agree that he's doing too much edits on one go and should discuss a lot of them with the translator beforehand.
(But at the same time I can't disagree with his point about "italicizing" the thoughts for example and a few other points too.)

It's a shame it's going awry, because he seems to be a good reader and editor, he's got a good eye about that stuff. (Still, I agree that he totally lacks social interaction skills. )

I totally agree too with the fact that he must abide to the specific rules translators/supervisors are setting up about their projects, which he doesn't even seem to care about...


On the other hand, concerning the "english style while ignoring the RAW / original author style" problem :
I do think that Jap->English translation actually can't be accurate and can't really be representative of the (Jap) author's style, simply because of the "basic but fundamental differences" between both languages... So arguing about the "author's style" isn't meaningful IMO... Still, it's important when a translator is investing his time to translate a lot of some work that his style at least stays coherent, hence that's more (IMO) a matter of changing the "translator's style" than the author's... Isn't it?

(As for the question of "westernizing", with the "replied" and other stuff... Well : I do think that it's necessary in French, but I can't tell for English. French is a really strongly ruled language, which English isn't.
Is a text more understandable when you are sure about who's speaking/responding/and so on?
Totally : I've always trouble trying to read LN which are displaying dialog as they are in the jap' version, it's a question of habit and culture I think, but the fact is, that Japanese has ways to distinguish who is speaking only by the way (s)he's speaking, that "western" languages don't have...
Hence westernizing is always a little bit necessary. Yet the way Mosswind did it isn't the right way to go with it, because it should be first discussed with the translator.)

Do you guys want to take measures to prevent future problems? I think we could.
So, I guess we could try to keep a tight rein on him, while giving him a last chance and so set some rules about how he should go on with any edits...

I propose :

• from now on, he should always propose his editions on the talk page or on the project's topic (on the forum), he should not edit anything excepted for correcting a typo or an obvious inattention's mistake.
• should the translator agree with some of the propositions he did, then he would be allowed to do the said edits, but not the ones the translator disagreed with. He's allowed to discuss them extensively as long as it stays polite and respectful...
• should he not abide to those rules, then he should get holy punishment or be totally blocked on the wiki, having to propose any edits on the forum and not being able to do them himself, should the said proposed edits be accepted (until he amended).

What do you think?

PS : please note that I do not pretend to have the proficiency to judge whether his edits are really improving the text towards "better English", I let this for native speaker who studied English further. I'm trying here to be only judging what he did, the ways he did it and the reasons he gave for doing such things, from the point of view of an (french) editor, while also taking into account the way I would feel as a translator if someone were to go and do the same to my translation. (Which are En->Fr, I confess.) [By the way, should I write "an (french) editor" or "a (french) editor"? Damn parenthesis.]

[Mystes]

Meh. If it's not getting anywhere, maybe another version of the text can be created on a separate page if krytyk lets him to do so...it would, however, set a precedent and I don't think it's in BT's best interest to have multiple versions of one single chap...

Well, I am just an outsider lurking for a while, but this incident reminded me of a similar occurence a while ago: Zero2001's case, only much more rude.

Zero talked more and objected to some stylistic choices the translator made - and mods happened to let the situation to snowball for the worst, as Zero got over-punished. Moss, on the other hand, is blunter and enforcing on a correct use of English, despite its possible changes to the original wording from the authors.