Rule for Editor?

[Drowzycow]

ProjectAdmins should be individuals who are able to walk a middle ground; for example, a PA should be able to sit down with the translator and figure out how his or her style works and where he/she leans in terms of literal vs free-edit. When edits start flying in, the PA should address any problems the translator has by not undoing everything that particular editor has done, but picking out things that the translator finds particularly offensive and fixing them. In fact, I think PA's should be the only people with undo/redo power.

This is never going to happen simply because most project starter's ie. the translator who found the will to begin translating something to begin also goes onto also be the project admin. I highly doubt you will see a separation in these roles. And saying translator can't commit undo's is fanciful.

The case of Log Horizon is special since the main translator doesn't seem to have an account on this website. He's given permission to post his work and do what we like with it. If LittleDrago stuck to what he said originally (needs a TLC from a translator), it's unlikely your edits would have been approved since there was no one TLCing against the original text in the first place.

[Lery]

If you have privileges to block, you should be only blocking spam bots.

Banning an active member is a serious issue that should be taken up with a Wiki Supervisor prior to when you do so.

I totally agree with you on that point. And I think that any ban should be discussed in the Admin part of the forum.

We have so many spam-bots that when I see a user banned for less than life, I'm almost automatically banning him forever, thinking it was a mistake from the previous banner ^^''
Yet I do check if it does look like a spam account or not beforehand, but what if others don't ? It could lead to awry situation.

@Mosswind : you could try editing things where there is only one translator involved... So all you have to do is firstly making sure he's okay with a in-depth revision of his translation and then go ahead as you want ^^
(I don't know what kind of story you like, but you may try with Iris on Rainy Days, for example... Or Remembrances for a Certain Pilot / To Aru Hikūshi e no Tsuioku, it's an external translation, but we had permission to host it here, you may try to ask for the permission to edit it, it's worth it ^^)

[krytyk]

I might be for a change, the most open person for discussion, after all I don't think anyone sits 12 hours a day on separate irc channel, alone, just in case any editor has questions. I took my time to prepare guidelines that can be discussed, and should be adhered to unless changed... but what does that effort amount to, when faced with the self-importance of certain editor...

The main issue was that Mosswind went in and started to make a huge, major changes without asking, without consultation, without adhering to specified project guidelines - in fact blatantly against them. I take my time and check every edit on series I do, every single one. But I've never seen someone go that far, moreover there was many changes that I didn't like - mainly changing the meaning in few spots and adding additional - unnecessary lines (why would you need to indicate who speaks when there's only two people speaking? In fact I do add lines indicating the speaker myself when there is a need to, but there - it was unnecessary.). And that was something I couldn't - and won't accept whether now or the future. It's annoying and insulting the effort I take to support/supervise the editors to the point I won't think twice of reverting it. You took two hours to do it? That's cute, imagine how long did I take translating the entire volume, or the series so far - of which consistency goes down and the meanings change - and with that - the quality goes down.

Well, just this. I'm not gonna delve any further into this topic since I think it's really pointless, but I felt somehow obliged to at least write one post of reply to mosswind's ?accusations?

Also, I'm very happy that you're going to avoid me, thanks for consideration.

Any and all editors are welcome to join me at #antimagicacademy@rizon if you need to consult any major changes or you have any doubts on translated part of either Antimagic Academy or Elysion.

EDIT: This was my closing post on the entire Mosswind issue and a response to comments about me above, thus I'm not going to add a single one beyond this. (This edit is sponsored by Mosswind's post below)

EDIT2: Ah, right this topic is about rules editors should adhere to, (thanks cloudi, those rules make sense) and dealing with problematic editors, not about the editing style. There is a separate liberal vs literal topic started long time ago by larenthian: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5682 so please try your luck with editing discussion over there.

Anyways, with this I'm really gonna stop myself from commenting any further.

[Mosswind]

If you have privileges to block, you should be only blocking spam bots.

Banning an active member is a serious issue that should be taken up with a Wiki Supervisor prior to when you do so.

I totally agree with you on that point. And I think that any ban should be discussed in the Admin part of the forum.

We have so many spam-bots that when I see a user banned for less than life, I'm almost automatically banning him forever, thinking it was a mistake from the previous banner ^^''
Yet I do check if it does look like a spam account or not beforehand, but what if others don't ? It could lead to awry situation.

@Mosswind : you could try editing things where there is only one translator involved... So all you have to do is firstly making sure he's okay with a in-depth revision of his translation and then go ahead as you want ^^
(I don't know what kind of story you like, but you may try with Iris on Rainy Days, for example... Or Remembrances for a Certain Pilot / To Aru Hikūshi e no Tsuioku, it's an external translation, but we had permission to host it here, you may try to ask for the permission to edit it, it's worth it ^^)

@ Lery: thanks for the suggestions! I'll check them out.

I agree on the banning point. It seems like an extreme to go to if people...I don't know...repeatedly delete an entire LN or something lol.

[Mosswind]

I might be for a change, the most open person for discussion, after all I don't think anyone sits 12 hours a day on separate irc channel, alone, just in case any editor has questions. I took my time to prepare guidelines that can be discussed, and should be adhered to unless changed... but what does that effort amount to, when faced with the self-importance of certain editor...

The main issue was that Mosswind went in and started to make a huge, major changes without asking, without consultation, without adhering to specified project guidelines - in fact blatantly against them. I take my time and check every edit on series I do, every single one. But I've never seen someone go that far, moreover there was many changes that I didn't like - mainly changing the meaning in few spots and adding additional - unnecessary lines (why would you need to indicate who speaks when there's only two people speaking? In fact I do add lines indicating the speaker myself when there is a need to, but there - it was unnecessary.). And that was something I couldn't - and won't accept whether now or the future. It's annoying and insulting the effort I take to support/supervise the editors to the point I won't think twice of reverting it. You took two hours to do it? That's cute, imagine how long did I take translating the entire volume, or the series so far - of which consistency goes down and the meanings change - and with that - the quality goes down.

Well, just this. I'm not gonna delve any further into this topic since I think it's really pointless, but I felt somehow obliged to at least write one post of reply to mosswind's ?accusations?

Also, I'm very happy that you're going to avoid me, thanks for consideration.

Any and all editors are welcome to join me at #antimagicacademy@rizon if you need to consult any major changes or you have any doubts on translated part of either Antimagic Academy or Elysion.

If this is going to turn into an argument, please take it to PM.

Please refrain from derailing from the topic. This topic is about rules for editors in general, not Mosswind's individual behavior.

Please refrain from talking about my behavior. Keep it to editing. Furthermore, don't get on our topic and talk bad about editing/editors when we are trying to actually achieve something on here. This topic is to discuss how editing works on here and all you just did was bash editing as a whole.

[Lery]

I might be for a change, the most open person for discussion, after all I don't think anyone sits 12 hours a day on separate irc channel, alone, just in case any editor has questions. I took my time to prepare guidelines that can be discussed, and should be adhered to unless changed...

We do not intend to criticize you in any way, krytyk, you're in well within your rights to complain, I think (hope) that even Mosswind will agree now that he would have asked first if he knew how we consider major edits. Yet, now he knows and thanks to you, LiTTleDRAgo and this topic, hopefully such situations won't happen before long.

And I hope that thanks to Cloud's work, it will be clearer for future (new) editors, how they should go ahead with their edits.

@Mosswind, please refrain from posting such things : you're the one at fault to begin with.
As we say : ignorantia legis neminem excusat

[Mosswind]

I might be for a change, the most open person for discussion, after all I don't think anyone sits 12 hours a day on separate irc channel, alone, just in case any editor has questions. I took my time to prepare guidelines that can be discussed, and should be adhered to unless changed...

We do not intend to criticize you in any way, krytyk, you're in well within your rights to complain, I think (hope) that even Mosswind will agree now that he would have asked first if he knew how we consider major edits. Yet, now he knows and thanks to you, LiTTleDRAgo and this topic, hopefully such situations won't happen before long.

And I hope that thanks to Cloud's work, it will be clearer for future (new) editors, how they should go ahead with their edits.

@Mosswind, please refrain from posting such things : you're the one at fault to begin with.
As we say : ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Lol I so did not see that phrase coming. However, ignorance of the law is an excuse when it comes to everything BUT actual laws...but, for argument's sake, lets say that I didn't read your laws before starting in on editing.

I can't say I don't mind being the one who started something that led to change, though .

[Mystes]

Also, there was talk about banning earlier in this topic.

I strongly feel that translators and project supervisors should not be allowed to ban anyone without notifying a Wiki Supervisor first.

Here are several reasons why:

• First of all, the translator usergroup does not have block privileges. Only editors do. I think in TLG's vision, translators should not be banning because of translation conflicts.
• There's a warning system that exists and should be carried out before banning active users:
  • Yellow Card: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... ing:yellow
  • Red Card: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... arning:red

If you have privileges to block, you should be only blocking spam bots.

Banning an active member is a serious issue that should be taken up with a Wiki Supervisor prior to when you do so.

As Lery said, banning should be done after a discussion about it in the admin forum, unless it's spam or deliberate trolling. But yeah, it should be the case.

For major edits though, I do not agree with the procedure. I'd say you make the major changes in a separate revision that is easy to revert if it's not good enough. At this rate, some translators may very well end up with a talk page longer than a volume of Horizon if the editor is dedicated enough and has a low standard for major changes.
If the editor disagrees with a change being reverted, THEN a discussion on a talk page can be started.

[Lery]

Well, since we do consider *our* laws as being important, and being given that there are a lot of remainders about reading them before doing anything on the wiki, I hope you understand that we feel like you've broken a few of them... So you could at least try to be a little bit penitent That's why Misogi was talking about keeping low profile a few posts ago, and that's why I think I'm not the only one to dislike your previous post about "keeping it to editing"...
Anyway, that's not the topic, so let's keep it to editing as you said.

@Kira : well, it all depends on the size and importance of the edits, IMO. And as we said, creating multiple revisions could leads to confusion if they were to last...

Major edits should be discussed I think, but I disagree with Cloud's use of the Talk page, since I agree with your point about lengthy Talk pages.
But then, wouldn't it be the purpose of the forum? Discussing the edits in the dedicated forum thread shouldn't be harmful to anything/anyone...

[Misogi]

For those involved in the discussion, expect a PM in the following minutes.

Further OT (off topic) messages will be deleted, and measures will be applied if it degenerates. Keep it to PMs.

Thanks for your comprehension.

[Mosswind]

Well, since we do consider *our* laws as being important, and being given that there are a lot of remainders about reading them before doing anything on the wiki, I hope you understand that we feel like you've broken a few of them... So you could at least try to be a little bit penitent That's why Misogi was talking about keeping low profile a few posts ago, and that's why I think I'm not the only one to dislike your previous post about "keeping it to editing"...
Anyway, that's not the topic, so let's keep it to editing as you said.

@Kira : well, it all depends on the size and importance of the edits, IMO. And as we said, creating multiple revisions could leads to confusion if they were to last...

Major edits should be discussed I think, but I disagree with Cloud's use of the Talk page, since I agree with your point about lengthy Talk pages.
But then, wouldn't it be the purpose of the forum? Discussing the edits in the dedicated forum thread shouldn't be harmful to anything/anyone...

I agree on the long talk pages...I just changed one sentence around in LH which had a verb that wasn't conjugated right and saw how long said Talk page could get if I continued to type any major changes like that.

[Lery]

Well, actually such changes aren't major in my opinion... If you were to change the tense of the verbs in a whole paragraph, then it would be major, but just correcting typo isn't anything like major, I think...

What do you, other editors/translators think about it?

[Mosswind]

Well, actually such changes aren't major in my opinion... If you were to change the tense of the verbs in a whole paragraph, then it would be major, but just correcting typo isn't anything like major, I think...

What do you, other editors/translators think about it?

Well, the edit in question didn't change source material, but I had to go from

"With armor '''cladding''' their limbs,"

to "Their limbs clad in armor"...So a SORT-OF major change... lol...

So my question as a follow-up to yours is is that the type of thing that needs to be put on a talk or forum page?

[Lery]

Well, I must confess I don't see the problem with the first one...

So isn't it more like a stylistic correction? If it's the case, it may not be major, but it still needs approval depending on the translators

Regarding your question, I'll let someone else answer it, because I dislike Talk pages and prefer the forum So my opinion on the matter isn't objective at all.

[Mosswind]

Well, I must confess I don't see the problem with the first one...

So isn't it more like a stylistic correction? If it's the case, it may not be major, but it still needs approval depending on the translators

Cladding is a word... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladding but i don't think the -ing-form of Clad is cladding...

Anyways, so that would be a stylistical change and therefore need the check from a TLer then?