Rule for Editor?

Do you have a fully fleshed idea that you think Baka-Tsuki should adopt? Post it here.

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Drowzycow
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Drowzycow »

krytyk wrote:...he goes overboard in too many areas.
As a general point about all edits, isn't better to do the edits in larger chunks like parts then smaller individual sentences?

I know when I started editing Zhhk advised that I consolidation them into parts at least.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by victorrama »

I personally always asks the project admin and / or supervisor and the translator before making major edit. Unless it's blatant typos. And it's still considered minor edits. And Moss being rude is true. I mean he didn't even put his name under the editor and doing things the way he likes.
Before things escalates further, might be better if he comes here and clarify things. Or maybe he's reading this thread already.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Lery »

^^'
I though that we were in the admin part. Why is this topic here ? Shouldn't it be in the private part ?
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cloudii
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by cloudii »

I didn't read very much of the conversation here, but I wanted to remind everyone that there are Help Pages in development that pertain to this topic: Link Is Here.

I've been slowly writing these pages based on existing resources on the Wiki (like the Format Guideline) and conventional protocol as I understand it. However, I'd appreciate it if people could chip in.

Since we're talking about rules for Editors, if you guys decide on something that sounds fair and accurately describes what we currently do on regular basis, feel free to add to the about pages. I plan on emailing TLG and Oni to get the about pages ratified when they reach a satisfactory state.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Mosswind »

Hey everyone,

I only found out about this particular forum (about me) from LittleDrago, who linked me it. As such, I'd like to say a few things:

Firstly, I do acknowledge that I could have handled the Anti-Magic Academy undo much better than I did. While it is not an excuse, I wrote it literally the second I learned about the undo and it snowballed from there. I had spent the better part of three hours on those edits and was treated to quite a rude dismissal of my edits, both in the undo itself and the talk page post from krytyk. However, I do realize that there were better paths for me to take than lambasting him.

However, I will say that there is no call for his comments in this thread and they only seek to make the problem worse. It also does not help the view of translators on this site to be blatantly inflammatory.

Second, I'd like to reiterate my stance on English vs. Literal Translation. I think many people have me wrong on this. I actually think that the literal translation of the text is great but only so far as it is able to convey a proper English meaning. Without a proper sentence structure, an eye for commas and such, and words that make sense in English, the texts become increasingly more and more difficult to read for the lay English reader. All my edits that I have ever attempted on this website have been with an eye at keeping the LN as close to the literal translation as possible, however, sometimes that just is not possible if you want an English audience to be able to enjoy it. I know I speak for many when I say that we come on to this site to read and enjoy the material that we will probably never see in an English bookstore; therefore, it is that much more important that we are able to enjoy it by not being puzzled about what a text is saying.

Third, I'd like to thank LittleDrago for talking to me after undoing my LH edits and letting me show him how the changes were not changing source material. He gets a gold star in my book.

Finally, I do think that the translators hold on to their particular translation style too much on this site. I'm not trying to start a war between editors and translators, but the truth of the matter is, this has been true since baka-tsuki has been online. I'd like to propose that there be three or four distinct classes of people on this website: Project Admins, Translators and Editors; no one can hold more than one job on a particular project. ProjectAdmins should be individuals who are able to walk a middle ground; for example, a PA should be able to sit down with the translator and figure out how his or her style works and where he/she leans in terms of literal vs free-edit. When edits start flying in, the PA should address any problems the translator has by not undoing everything that particular editor has done, but picking out things that the translator finds particularly offensive and fixing them. In fact, I think PA's should be the only people with undo/redo power.

Translators need to have their input in this system, of course. Translators would have approval power over official editors, which would lend to the ability for them to find someone who is of the same style as they are. However, they would not have undo power over editors with a registered name on this website. What this means is that translators would not have the power to remove the edits of someone that they didn't approve of until the PA saw the changes for him/herself.

Editors need to be free to edit and have some power in this system. If an editor feels that his edits are thrown out for no reason, whatsoever, he is not likely going to return to this website. It is very discouraging to be in a situation where you work hard at something because you love doing it and then what you have done is completely trashed. Furthermore, when you know that 90% of the changes are quality changes and the other 10% is easily fixable...
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Cthaeh »

^The thing with that proposal is that there really aren't that many truly active project admins/supervisors. And the default policy in such a situation is that the translator acts as the supervisor. And even when there is a supervisor or admin, they often choose to leave things at the discretion to the translators. The accepted bt policy is that translators have the ultimate authority over their translations; and I don't think that will change any time soon. While editors may feel powerless, remember that translators have spent much more time on the product, and they should have the ability to make sure the quality, as they see it, remains intact.

I personally support using a more natural English style in general. But in cases where the translator or supervisor doesn't agree, I simply choose not to edit it. In order to not waste time editing, my recommendation based on what I now do (for major edits) is to either talk to the translator/supervisor before making edits, or do a small amount of editing and have them check that. In general, if there is a lot of the "raw" style in the text, chances are the translator intended it that way and is not as likely to approve English style edits that remove those "raw" qualities (whatever some may think of that decision). I have decided not to edit some things based on that reason. Another way you can sometimes get an idea without asking is to look at previous edits they choose to undo.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Misogi »

Well, what was fully wrong wasn't your edits, but the lack of discussion and the flaming with translators.

In order to avoid a complete anarchy on translations, it is highly advised to get the translator's trust and approval over notable changes. Of course, the translator must be open to discussions over changes. I think that it should be added as an advice.

Anyway, conflicts don't fit BT's mood, so don't think to much of that.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by cloudii »

Hello Mosswind,

I think many of us agree with the content of your edits (liberalization vs. literalization). As such, I think you are a fantastic editor to have the courage to critique translators and improve the overall english of a translation. I almost wish there were more editors like you, in fact, because editors like you drive translators to improve.

However, like almost everyone else pointed out before me:
  • Contact the translator first. You'll avoid a lot of bloodshed and flaming if you give a heads-up to translators. Our translations are like our babies. For normal people (not Js06), it takes an immense amount of time to finish a translation. Like, weeks and even months for some translators. As such, we get hypersensitive when random strangers touch our babies.
Almost all of us translators feel better if we know in advance that major edits are going on. Most of all, the goal should be to develop trust between the translator and editor. We're most comfortable handing over our babies to people we trust, you know?

Thanks!


PS: Here is what I had written up under Contributor Rules help page. Any comments?
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by cloudii »

Also, there was talk about banning earlier in this topic.

I strongly feel that translators and project supervisors should not be allowed to ban anyone without notifying a Wiki Supervisor first.

Here are several reasons why: If you have privileges to block, you should be only blocking spam bots.

Banning an active member is a serious issue that should be taken up with a Wiki Supervisor prior to when you do so.
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Mosswind
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Mosswind »

cloud wrote:Hello Mosswind,

I think many of us agree with the content of your edits (liberalization vs. literalization). As such, I think you are a fantastic editor to have the courage to critique translators and improve the overall english of a translation. I almost wish there were more editors like you, in fact, because editors like you drive translators to improve.

However, like almost everyone else pointed out before me:
  • Contact the translator first. You'll avoid a lot of bloodshed and flaming if you give a heads-up to translators. Our translations are like our babies. For normal people (not Js06), it takes an immense amount of time to finish a translation. Like, weeks and even months for some translators. As such, we get hypersensitive when random strangers touch our babies.
Almost all of us translators feel better if we know in advance that major edits are going on. Most of all, the goal should be to develop trust between the translator and editor. We're most comfortable handing over our babies to people we trust, you know?

Thanks!


PS: Here is what I had written up under Contributor Rules help page. Any comments?
Image
Quite frankly, I had not thought that my edits were drastic enough to need to be TLC'ed by anyone. Now I know, and, as a classic doll once said, knowing is half the battle. If you can suggest people that might be open to discussion and projects you'd suggest (not kyrtyk's lol) then I'd be glad to work on those projects. I only want to make things better on baka-tsuki.

As for your png file, I agree with all the points made. I think there needs to be clarification and standardization as to what is and isn't changing the source material. I feel like translators each have their own definition of what equals changing the source material. I think that that randomness is what causes the problems like the ones between me and kyrtyk.

Thanks,

Mossy
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Misogi »

Nothing to add anymore.

And thanks for mentioning this card system, it'll help a lot.

@Mosswind : May you refrain from pouring oil on the fire? I have nothing against you, but keeping a low profile would be wiser than using sarcastic remarks.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Mosswind »

Misogi wrote:Nothing to add anymore.

And thanks for mentioning this card system, it'll help a lot.

@Mosswind : May you refrain from pouring oil on the fire? I have nothing against you, but keeping a low profile would be wiser than using sarcastic remarks.
@ Misogi: When did I do anything like that? I'm sorry, but keeping a low profile is kind of an anti-me thing. Besides, I have said nothing on this particular topic that isn't true. I really don't understand what you mean by this... Sorry...
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Misogi »

I'm referring about this.
Mosswind wrote:Quite frankly, I had not thought that my edits were drastic enough to need to be TLC'ed by anyone. Now I know, and, as a classic doll once said, knowing is half the battle. If you can suggest people that might be open to discussion and projects you'd suggest (not kyrtyk's lol) then I'd be glad to work on those projects. I only want to make things better on baka-tsuki.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by Mosswind »

Misogi wrote:I'm referring about this.
Mosswind wrote:Quite frankly, I had not thought that my edits were drastic enough to need to be TLC'ed by anyone. Now I know, and, as a classic doll once said, knowing is half the battle. If you can suggest people that might be open to discussion and projects you'd suggest (not kyrtyk's lol) then I'd be glad to work on those projects. I only want to make things better on baka-tsuki.
Well, Misogi, I was trying for some lightness there. What I was trying to say is that people who are more on the side of literal translation are the people that I should probably avoid. However, did you miss the bashing I took on this page from krytyk? My harmless comment was just that: harmless. It was also making a point.
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Re: Rule for Editor?

Post by cloudii »

If this is going to turn into an argument, please take it to PM.

Please refrain from derailing from the topic. This topic is about rules for editors in general, not Mosswind's individual behavior.
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