BTlib - Testing the water

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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby draringi » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:39 pm

Kira0802 wrote:1. Fix those conflicting edits

I think I get what you mean, but could you explain to clarify.
Kira0802 wrote:2. Have a built-in auto-corrector. That way, simple typos can be more easily fixed

as in a spell check? that really should be the responsibility of the browser...
Kira0802 wrote:3. Traceable updates

? how is an update not traceable? again, I need a bit of clarification on this...
Kira0802 wrote:4. Language separation

Already in the code. Been there since day 1. This was one of my greatest problems with MediaWiki, along with easy listring and seperation of novels.
Kira0802 wrote:5. Auto-save

Added to the list.
Kira0802 wrote:6. Adapted for mobile safari/chrome/other browsers

Mobile compatibilty is being looked at for the frontend.
Kira0802 wrote:7. Generated list of editors sorted by edits, with the option to add some manually

? What we are looking at at the momment is translators choosing their own dedicated editors... how does that sound?
Kira0802 wrote:8. Stats page

What stats do you want?
Kira0802 wrote:9. A stalled section for projects, so the sidebar gets shorter

We have project types. I quess we could simply add stalled to the type list... or add a Status field...
Kira0802 wrote:10. Built-in IRC.

... how typical...
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby Mystes » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:43 pm

I think I get what you mean, but could you explain to clarify.

Is it possible to be able to merge two edits into one, or something? Or a warning during the editing, at least?
? how is an update not traceable? again, I need a bit of clarification on this...

Err, I meant RSS feeds and else.
? What we are looking at at the momment is translators choosing their own dedicated editors... how does that sound?

Fine~~
What stats do you want?

Most popular per month/per year/total would be enough, I think.
... how typical...

Hehe~~
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby draringi » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Kira0802 wrote:Is it possible to be able to merge two edits into one, or something? Or a warning during the editing, at least?

2 into 1, maybe, we are looking into it, but we can't guarantee anything... a warning we can do though, providing you aren't using a 100 year old browser...
Kira0802 wrote:Err, I meant RSS feeds and else.

yes, we already plan on having such feeds.
Kira0802 wrote:Most popular per month/per year/total would be enough, I think.

We'll look into it...
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby Simon » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:35 pm

draringi wrote:Kira0802 wrote:
Is it possible to be able to merge two edits into one, or something? Or a warning during the editing, at least?

2 into 1, maybe, we are looking into it, but we can't guarantee anything... a warning we can do though, providing you aren't using a 100 year old browser...


So.. Kira wishes for versioning system... is there one ? I think it's easy to show the changes... but something like cvs function(as add this here, remove there(In a browser I mean(html,js and stuff I mean))), I still haven't seen such one... someone give me enlightenment on that.

Spoiler! :
I have an idea. Let's force Kira to learn the language of our people. And then make him write his own request ? How's that ? Is it just me or did it become a habit to mock Kira ?

Kira0802 wrote:10. Built-in IRC.


Kira... *looks away*

But there was a small idea of something like that. Maybe you have luck and someone will be so kind to implement that. But that's also a bit of a problem, because the sites are being loaded "anew" and not into frames or with js. As we also wish to support text based brosers that don't use css and js.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby zzhk » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:47 pm

Kira, how about you simply press "Show changes" before clicking "Save page" whenever you spend a lengthy amount of time on editing?

I think what Kira actually meant by listing out editors is a quick way to output all the editing contributions of a given volume, for example, so that the contributors can be acknowledged/identified.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby larethian » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:41 pm

I'm afraid you guys may be wasting your time without even getting an approval from the big boss to present a proposal. Of course you can always do it and start a new translation group on your own (in fact, this will be my suggestion).

Some of my questions would be:
1. How many phases are you going to divide the project into?
2. How many man-hours will be needed?
3. Will you have a software test plan and QA procedures? (for a SW of this scale and where security is important, you would need one)
4. For all the things you want to do, will there be an impact in QoS?
5. Are you going to open source the code?
6. Maintenance, who will be responsible?
7. Deployment, what kind of infrastructure will be needed? (note that TLG has been hosting baka-tsuki on his own servers from his own pocket and have been against us supporting him with server and infrastructure costs)

Currently, this is only 'talk'. If you are serious about wanting to do this, before we even talk about prototypes, you should come up with a sound proposal and plan that can impress some of the people here (not me, since I'm no expert), especially the big boss.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby draringi » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:04 pm

larethian wrote:I'm afraid you guys may be wasting your time without even getting an approval from the big boss to present a proposal. Of course you can always do it and start a new translation group on your own (in fact, this will be my suggestion).

As I believe I told Simon (i'm not 100% sure I did), I plan on using the system for my own purposes even if TLG doesn't decide to use this new system, so as far as I'm concerned no time is being wasted.


larethian wrote:1. How many phases are you going to divide the project into?

Still undecided. I have started setting out the requirements for stage one on the Github Rep, and will figure out how many more will be needed as feature requests come in.
larethian wrote:2. How many man-hours will be needed?

Again, very hard to tell before the feature list has been completed, but quite a few I do believe. Add in that an hour spent by someone on the weekend as part of their free time is not equal to an hour spent by a full-time paid coder, and the measurement of Man-hour becomes ambiguous... but that's another discussion, and all the people involved fall into the community free time coders category..
larethian wrote:3. Will you have a software test plan and QA procedures? (for a SW of this scale and where security is important, you would need one)

As you said, we need them, and we will have the Milestone releases hosted somewhere (I'm still debating between one of my Virtual Servers and Heroku), and possibly even host the rolling version somewhere as well.
larethian wrote:4. For all the things you want to do, will there be an impact in QoS?

I'd prefer not, but at this stage I am not sure... I have sites running on top of the same framework that load in reasonable time (~200ms to load completely with caching in effect), so I am not foreseeing any great QoS drop.
larethian wrote:5. Are you going to open source the code?

Yes, MIT style
larethian wrote:6. Maintenance, who will be responsible?

Well, as I said, I plan to use it myself so at the very least I will maintain it. As it is open source the community is free to fork it at any time if they feel my direction is not the same as where BT wants to go. I will comment my code, and the development documentation which we are using to sort out our ideas will be released so that anyone that wishes to work on the code will get a better idea of where we were coming from.
larethian wrote:7. Deployment, what kind of infrastructure will be needed? (note that TLG has been hosting baka-tsuki on his own servers from his own pocket and have been against us supporting him with server and infrastructure costs)

Python 2.7, and Django, though you can install Django in a python virtualenv with pip. You could host this on the current server, or just as easily host this on a PaaS could system, such as Heroku, where I sometimes place my Personal Projects when I want a friend to take a look and recommend changes... It's flexible.
larethian wrote:Currently, this is only 'talk'. If you are serious about wanting to do this, before we even talk about prototypes, you should come up with a sound proposal and plan that can impress some of the people here (not me, since I'm no expert), especially the big boss.

My original intention was to present it after I was finished, but Simon wanted to get some input from the community. As confirmation from from TLG and the other community leaders is not the be all and end all as far as I'm concerned I will most likely not wait for a sign of interest from them before starting. I am open to suggestions from them however, as this will be software available to them, should they want it.

I plan on adding more details to the original post, including some links, but I'll wait, as I'm to tired at the moment.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby FNX » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:16 pm

I only wish for one thing, be able to see a preview while editing, nothing would make me more happy
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby Mystes » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:25 pm

zzhk wrote:Kira, how about you simply press "Show changes" before clicking "Save page" whenever you spend a lengthy amount of time on editing?

I always do that when it happens. However, when the previous editor and me both do parts-long changes at the same time, I have to copy-paste sentences here and there. Sometimes I can miss one or two things the previous editor did.

But at the same time, this idea is kind of unrealistic because if you don't check every single edit, the conflicting edits merged can cause some errors. :/

FNX wrote:I only wish for one thing, be able to see a preview while editing, nothing would make me more happy


Like wordpress' visual mode?

Spoiler! :
I have an idea. Let's force Kira to learn the language of our people. And then make him write his own request ? How's that ? Is it just me or did it become a habit to mock Kira ?

Spoiler! :
Mocking is off-limits. Though..

kira.PNG
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby larethian » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:09 pm

draringi wrote:
larethian wrote:I'm afraid you guys may be wasting your time without even getting an approval from the big boss to present a proposal. Of course you can always do it and start a new translation group on your own (in fact, this will be my suggestion).

As I believe I told Simon (i'm not 100% sure I did), I plan on using the system for my own purposes even if TLG doesn't decide to use this new system, so as far as I'm concerned no time is being wasted.


larethian wrote:1. How many phases are you going to divide the project into?

Still undecided. I have started setting out the requirements for stage one on the Github Rep, and will figure out how many more will be needed as feature requests come in.
larethian wrote:2. How many man-hours will be needed?

Again, very hard to tell before the feature list has been completed, but quite a few I do believe. Add in that an hour spent by someone on the weekend as part of their free time is not equal to an hour spent by a full-time paid coder, and the measurement of Man-hour becomes ambiguous... but that's another discussion, and all the people involved fall into the community free time coders category..
larethian wrote:3. Will you have a software test plan and QA procedures? (for a SW of this scale and where security is important, you would need one)

As you said, we need them, and we will have the Milestone releases hosted somewhere (I'm still debating between one of my Virtual Servers and Heroku), and possibly even host the rolling version somewhere as well.
larethian wrote:4. For all the things you want to do, will there be an impact in QoS?

I'd prefer not, but at this stage I am not sure... I have sites running on top of the same framework that load in reasonable time (~200ms to load completely with caching in effect), so I am not foreseeing any great QoS drop.
larethian wrote:5. Are you going to open source the code?

Yes, MIT style
larethian wrote:6. Maintenance, who will be responsible?

Well, as I said, I plan to use it myself so at the very least I will maintain it. As it is open source the community is free to fork it at any time if they feel my direction is not the same as where BT wants to go. I will comment my code, and the development documentation which we are using to sort out our ideas will be released so that anyone that wishes to work on the code will get a better idea of where we were coming from.
larethian wrote:7. Deployment, what kind of infrastructure will be needed? (note that TLG has been hosting baka-tsuki on his own servers from his own pocket and have been against us supporting him with server and infrastructure costs)

Python 2.7, and Django, though you can install Django in a python virtualenv with pip. You could host this on the current server, or just as easily host this on a PaaS could system, such as Heroku, where I sometimes place my Personal Projects when I want a friend to take a look and recommend changes... It's flexible.
larethian wrote:Currently, this is only 'talk'. If you are serious about wanting to do this, before we even talk about prototypes, you should come up with a sound proposal and plan that can impress some of the people here (not me, since I'm no expert), especially the big boss.

My original intention was to present it after I was finished, but Simon wanted to get some input from the community. As confirmation from from TLG and the other community leaders is not the be all and end all as far as I'm concerned I will most likely not wait for a sign of interest from them before starting. I am open to suggestions from them however, as this will be software available to them, should they want it.

I plan on adding more details to the original post, including some links, but I'll wait, as I'm to tired at the moment.


Well since you are doing it primarily for your own purpose, then my last point is of course moot. If you are open sourcing it, and if the platform is good, some group or interested party is bound to use it some day, I guess.

If I may suggest, you should start small in terms of feature list but a sound, modular, scalable framework that can encompass future feature extensions easily. I have seen too many of ambitious FOSS projects 'die' because the scale of effort becomes too big from what the creators originally fathom. Btw, I've been away from SW engineering for close to 10 years, so I'm probably just rambling.

EDIT: On a side note, what you plan to do does sound interesting and may create a pioneering proper light novel translation SW platform, if you succeed. I may give it some thought when I have the time.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby Simon » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:52 am

Kira0802 wrote:
FNX wrote:I only wish for one thing, be able to see a preview while editing, nothing would make me more happy


Like wordpress' visual mode?


It's called WYSIWYG (editor).

draringi wrote:As I believe I told Simon (i'm not 100% sure I did), I plan on using the system for my own purposes even if TLG doesn't decide to use this new system, so as far as I'm concerned no time is being wasted.


Yes you did.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby draringi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:01 am

@larethian:
Yeah, I'm currently sorting through the feature request list to decide what has a higher priority, and set the milestones at the right place to make sure we don't burn ourselves out. 0.1 is meant to be the bare min, and not all feature requests will make it to 1.0. We'll work on what makes the most sense first, and expand after we have the base working.
@Simon: That's good, I'm never sure if I tell people everything I mean to tell them...
and I believe he wants a preview that renders the result before entering it into the DB, much like the preview button in this forum when you are writing a post.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby FNX » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:05 pm

draringi wrote:@larethian:
and I believe he wants a preview that renders the result before entering it into the DB, much like the preview button in this forum when you are writing a post.


Yeah, like that, that button gives me nightmares since my connection seems to have fun failing me whenever I edit something big and end up having to redo everything
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby draringi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:09 pm

FNX wrote:
draringi wrote:@larethian:
and I believe he wants a preview that renders the result before entering it into the DB, much like the preview button in this forum when you are writing a post.

Yeah, like that, that button gives me nightmares since my connection seems to have fun failing me whenever I edit something big and end up having to redo everything

That is easy, and will probably be there at 0.2, if not 0.1.
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Re: BTlib - Testing the water

Postby KuroiHikari » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:01 am

Something nice to have would be some sort of parent-child associations: Pages of a novel would be under the main page of the novel, and etc(chps under vols). This would allow following of the "main page" and being notified of everything associated to it.
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