Rakudai Kishi no Chivalry

[KLSymph]

guys, about the weapon name and nicknames.
can some one put a furigana tag?
i mean like for ikki,its <Failure Knight> superscripted with Worst One.
do this for all the device/weapon names
attack names
noble arts
nicknames for the characters.
like <Witch of the deep sea> superscripted with lorelei..
thanks

I don't recommend going wild with furigana. It doesn't look great in text, and should be reserved for special occasions.

[sirgoodguy]

What the post above me said.
Uploading volume 4 and 5 in about 12 hours max dont edit these pages just been really busy.
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... ustrations
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... ustrations

[Kouen no Ten]

No need to be so upright with furiganas, guys~ Furiganas look cool enough to me, and they have completely become a part of BT custom. ^_^

[KLSymph]

Furigana should be avoided as much as possible, and not just because of how it looks.

First, furigana is unnecessary. The principle behind LN translation (that I'm personally following, anyway) is that we're trying to give readers who know English but not Japanese the ability to read the story without learning how to read Japanese. Furigana is an element of Japanese reading that is absent from English reading. We shouldn't force English readers to make a nontrivial mental switch just to adapt to a Japanese writing construct. Unless the reader is already used to Japanese conventions, it brings him right out of immersion, and it's not the already-Japanese-reading audience we're doing this work for.

Second, even if we want to translate a Japanese writing construct, furigana is a pronunciation aide for Japanese readers. It's usually put on words with non-obvious pronunciation like rare kanji, names with multiple possible readings, or English words in the Japanese text. When we do it, to use the Failure Knight/Worst One as an example, we're not adding furigana to provide English pronunciation the way the Japanese text is trying to provide Japanese pronunciation. We already add English pronunciation simply by translating text, but by adding furigana we're just adding some more words with different meaning on top. This layering of meaning is usually not the point of the furigana in the original text (though to be fair, it does sometimes get used for that, even in this story), so technically we're not translating the intended language effect.

Third, even if we want to add multiple meanings, and doing it by furigana occasionally is fine for Japanese readers, this practice is pretty clumsy for an English reader. It's not very different from pinning a note to some text explaining what the text means... which is what we do with footnotes. Neither are optimal for layering multiple meanings smoothly into the reading experience: footnotes require more clicking and scrolling than furigana, but furigana explains in much less detail. The only way to "get" a double meaning as smoothly as it occurs in Japanese would be to actually know and read the original Japanese text; translating furigana doesn't help this.

And well, however you look at it, furigana can be really ugly depending on your browser settings.

Spoiler! :

Pretty sure that's not how you pronounce "between".

This is the BT app on default font. In footnotes, furigana of kanji can overlap with the text two lines above and I am not kidding.

So I recommend we avoid furigana as much as possible except for specific uses, like allowing us to put pronunciation on top of Greek letters. I also recommend we avoid footnotes as much as possible, but that's a different topic.

Thinking about stuff like this is why proofreading takes so long.

P.S. Also, Furigana in the novel messes up my OCR results. I'm not a big fan, is what I'm saying.

[Kouen no Ten]

Furigana should be avoided as much as possible, and not just because of how it looks.

First, furigana is unnecessary. The principle behind LN translation (that I'm personally following, anyway) is that we're trying to give readers who know English but not Japanese the ability to read the story without learning how to read Japanese. Furigana is an element of Japanese reading that is absent from English reading. We shouldn't force English readers to make a nontrivial mental switch just to adapt to a Japanese writing construct. Unless the reader is already used to Japanese conventions, it brings him right out of immersion, and it's not the already-Japanese-reading audience we're doing this work for.

Second, even if we want to translate a Japanese writing construct, furigana is a pronunciation aide for Japanese readers. It's usually put on words with non-obvious pronunciation like rare kanji, names with multiple possible readings, or English words in the Japanese text. When we do it, to use the Failure Knight/Worst One as an example, we're not adding furigana to provide English pronunciation the way the Japanese text is trying to provide Japanese pronunciation. We already add English pronunciation simply by translating text, but by adding furigana we're just adding some more words with different meaning on top. This layering of meaning is usually not the point of the furigana in the original text (though to be fair, it does sometimes get used for that, even in this story), so technically we're not translating the intended language effect.

As you have lucidly explained, the use of furigana varies. What you first explained was yomigana, the most common form of furigana, and like you said, ranobes (light novels) frequently use the multiple meaning form of furigana.

For example, in a work of science fiction, some astronaut could use the word ふるさと, furusato, meaning "my hometown", when referring to planet Earth. To clarify that for the reader, the word furusato (hometown) might be written in hiragana over the kanji for chikyuu (Earth).

In RAW text, Failure Knight is written as 落第騎士, and Worst One is written as ワーストワン.



Third, even if we want to add multiple meanings, and doing it by furigana occasionally is fine for Japanese readers, this practice is pretty clumsy for an English reader. It's not very different from pinning a note to some text explaining what the text means... which is what we do with footnotes. Neither are optimal for layering multiple meanings smoothly into the reading experience: footnotes require more clicking and scrolling than furigana, but furigana explains in much less detail. The only way to "get" a double meaning as smoothly as it occurs in Japanese would be to actually know and read the original Japanese text; translating furigana doesn't help this.

Not necessarily. You'll find lot of veteran BT translators on the other side of the spectrum regarding this matter. I think majority of the BT crowd have already gotten used to Japanese elements in translated works hosted at BT. I see tons of them even using Japanese slangs that were featured in To aru, and other works at animesuki and even here at BT.


And well, however you look at it, furigana can be really ugly depending on your browser settings.

Spoiler! :

Pretty sure that's not how you pronounce "between".


This is the BT app on default font. In footnotes, furigana of kanji can overlap with the text two lines above and I am not kidding.

I see, this certainly seems problematic.
So I recommend we avoid furigana as much as possible except for specific uses, like allowing us to put pronunciation on top of Greek letters. I also recommend we avoid footnotes as much as possible, but that's a different topic.


Thinking about stuff like this is why proofreading takes so long.

P.S. Also, Furigana in the novel messes up my OCR results. I'm not a big fan, is what I'm saying.

We are not pros, bro. ~O.o~ Chill out, man~ Let's take it easy~

Personally, I think Larethian did a great job introducing furigana to this community, and I love furiganas.

At least let it go for Cat and me, please.

I am sorry if I offended you in any manner, it was truly not my intention to offend you in any way.

[KLSymph]

The only way to "get" a double meaning as smoothly as it occurs in Japanese would be to actually know and read the original Japanese text; translating furigana doesn't help this.

Not necessarily. You'll find lot of veteran BT translators on the other side of the spectrum regarding this matter. I think majority of the BT crowd have already gotten used to Japanese elements in translated works hosted at BT. I see tons of them even using Japanese slangs that were featured in To aru, and other works at animesuki and even here at BT.

My principle is to target a J-to-E translation to the audience that fluently reads English but doesn't read Japanese and doesn't want to learn. I make allowances for parts of the Japanese language that are so ingrained in the text they can't be scrubbed out without making things awkward (like common suffixes), but I don't support a translation philosophy targeting a special "Baka-Tsuki crowd" audience. I think we should translate light novels to spread these stories to as many people as possible who are interested in reading novels, and not for a special subset of people who are comfortable with a particular translation site's definition of gratuitous Japanese. BT conventions, while they have their reasons and benefits, can represent a barrier to entry to new readers. It's hard for me to justify putting a lot of work into translating and editing a story, then give it to a random person and say, "Here, read this. We translated it, but to get the best reading experience you have to learn some basic Japanese, and then get comfortable with some extra Japanese on top of that because that's what our translators are used to leaving in the text untranslated."

This may just be me trying to justify the hours I've spent on scrubbing the text to myself though, so don't take it too seriously.

We are not pros, bro. ~O.o~ Chill out, man~ Let's take it easy~

I like being professional. It gives me endless excuses to not work quickly, because I gotta make sure the result is perfect. Or so I say to those who ask. It's also good for the reader, I guess. But mostly for procrastination! So actually, I'm trying to protect my own chill.

Personally, I think Larethian did a great job introducing furigana to this community, and I love furiganas.

I think furigana is great for particular purposes. I just don't want it to become something we use without weighing its cost to the intended audience.

At least let it go for Cat and me, please.

I am sorry if I offended you in any manner, it was truly not my intention to offend you in any way.

I'm not offended at all, don't worry. I've had this already worked out long before now. As for letting it go, I'm fine with you guys putting in furigana... if you're fine with me reviewing your usage during proofreading, probably deciding most of it's unnecessary, and taking them out.

[Kouen no Ten]

Furigana isn't basic Japanese. So you don't have to worry about people learning basic Japanese to understand Failure Knight/Worst One or the like furigana.

Also, this isn't going anywhere. So, how about we just vote it out?

And let's be clear here. When we say furigana we don't mean yomigana, we mean furigana that is used to give another meaning to a particular word.

[BionicMeerkat]

Hey all, just wanted to say Chapter 3 is up and running. I also did the update for it.

On the topic of Furigana, I think it is fine to implement it. Same as what Kouen said, it would be for instances like Failure Knight/Worst One. I understand that it might mess with peoples formats and such depending on how they view the text. But I still vote on keeping it.

[Kouen no Ten]

Hey all, just wanted to say Chapter 3 is up and running. I also did the update for it.

On the topic of Furigana, I think it is fine to implement it. Same as what Kouen said, it would be for instances like Failure Knight/Worst One. I understand that it might mess with peoples formats and such depending on how they view the text. But I still vote on keeping it.

Wow, this sure is a surprise! Wiki didn't troll you this time around, huh?

[BionicMeerkat]

Hey all, just wanted to say Chapter 3 is up and running. I also did the update for it.

On the topic of Furigana, I think it is fine to implement it. Same as what Kouen said, it would be for instances like Failure Knight/Worst One. I understand that it might mess with peoples formats and such depending on how they view the text. But I still vote on keeping it.

Wow, this sure is a surprise! Wiki didn't troll you this time around, huh?

Yeah right?! The wiki has finally accepted me

[KLSymph]

Furigana isn't basic Japanese. So you don't have to worry about people learning basic Japanese to understand Failure Knight/Worst One or the like furigana.

That's not why I don't support furigana. It's undesirable because it messes with the reading experience on some level, and is avoidable. I'd give it a pass if it was basic Japanese, but not being basic Japanese doesn't help the underlying problem.

Also, this isn't going anywhere. So, how about we just vote it out?

I think we should debate the objective pros and cons more. Get more people's views.

To clarify, this isn't "the translators are falling out" or anything. I just like to argue about story quality with people on the internet.

[BionicMeerkat]

Hmmm should we give a link to display what we mean by Furigana? I can just link Chapter 3 and specify which part so they get an idea. Then readers or whoever can state their pros and cons regarding it.

Just went ahead and decided to make the link for it. Furigana is what the Failure Knight/Worst One text looks like.

[KLSymph]

Or if you guys really feel strongly about it, one possible compromise: After I strip furigana out during proofreading, my sense of editing professionalism is satisfied. If a translator or editor still believes they should be there after reading, he or she can put it back in.

[Kouen no Ten]

There really isn't much for me to debate about. I've already expressed my view.

And let's be clear here. When we say furigana we don't mean yomigana, we mean furigana that is used to give another meaning to a particular word.

All I can do now is to wait for people to vote. If they vote to remove the furiganas then I'll gracefully back off from the argument.

Edit: Hmm... I'll have to think this through, then...
Edit 2: Began voting at animesuki.

[sirgoodguy]

I personally don't mind them but they don't look so good on the website and worse on Baka Reader Ex and just weird when you have Baka Reader read the novel to you.