Rakudai Kishi no Chivalry

[sirgoodguy]

P.S. I have been doing doing thoughts in italics, but I noticed in Vol 2 the earlier chapters aren't italicized. Should they be? If so, I can fix that as well.

I got no idea what are and are not half the time. So I just don't bother with me personally. Or did cat use sometime to tell me about them in the text but I did not realise what they meant... ZzZzZzZzZzZz. Back to my crypt.

PS:

...Oi!

I reserve the power/right to 'Oi!' the cat.

PSS:
Raw text still in Chapter 4:
(……よくまあ毎日毎日同じような話をして飽きね.πな)

「び、びびるこたぁねえ! 全員でフクロにしちまおう!」

Quote and give English versions and i can replace in 12 hours from this post or if someone else can be bothered go ahead.

[Kouen no Ten]

Raw text still in Chapter 4:
(……よくまあ毎日毎日同じような話をして飽きね.πな)

「び、びびるこたぁねえ! 全員でフクロにしちまおう!」

Quote and give English versions and i can replace in 12 hours from this post or if someone else can be bothered go ahead.

... Seriously?

Check the post on page 23, the one above your's.

[lifeman120]

finished the 1st colour page, will this do or do i need to change anything?

Colour page 1

Edit:

The index with numbers Index

Chapter 4 title was way to long so i visually shortened it, i can also make it use 2 rows

[BionicMeerkat]

P.S. I have been doing doing thoughts in italics, but I noticed in Vol 2 the earlier chapters aren't italicized. Should they be? If so, I can fix that as well.

I got no idea what are and are not half the time. So I just don't bother with me personally. Or did cat use sometime to tell me about them in the text but I did not realise what they meant... ZzZzZzZzZzZz. Back to my crypt.


PSS:
Raw text still in Chapter 4:
(……よくまあ毎日毎日同じような話をして飽きね.πな)

「び、びびるこたぁねえ! 全員でフクロにしちまおう!」

Quote and give English versions and i can replace in 12 hours from this post or if someone else can be bothered go ahead.

Yeah I just looked at the project guidelines and it said to put thoughts in italics. I'll go ahead and run through Volume 2 and do that. I'll also take care of the raw text. Also, just to make sure, were the references for Chapter 3 deleted because they were viewed as unnecessary? I had a couple in there but they are no longer there so I was curious for the reason.

Raw text DONE. Going for the italics + looking for references DONE. There is a editors note in epilogue, just a heads up.

P.S. - I'm almost done with Chapter 4 and I noticed a odd abundance of Itsuki. If my hunch is correct, it is actually suppose to be B@st@rd? If so, I'll make the changes when I get confirmation.

[Se-an]

Just here saying my thanks for the great work

[Kouen no Ten]

Wow~ Furiganas~~ Gone, all of them~~ Words like Ukenagashi should not be translated, just like Kenjutsu and Origami (consensus of majority of professional translators).

Don't remove furiganas, and symbols like 《》,「」, and『』 from volume 3, please.

[KLSymph]

Wow~ Furiganas~~ Gone, all of them~~

*waves*

As we discussed before, put them back if you want them. Though be aware that this was just a paragraphing/formatting pass, and I'll try to scrub the furigana during the actual smoothing passes (whenever I get to those), so you may need to put them back more than once.

And... there really weren't all that many furiganas?

Words like Ukenagashi should not be translated, just like Kenjutsu and Origami (consensus of majority of professional translators).

Whether terms should be translated is highly context-dependent and should be evaluated on the specific details of the current text, not on sweeping policies. For example, the words ukenagashi, kenjutsu, and origami are not alike.

Ukenagashi has a strong claim to direct usage because it describes something specific that can't be expressed succinctly in English; the problem is that its actual usage is so infrequent that the readability benefit of translating it to a less specific English word outweighs the descriptiveness of the succinct Japanese term (which has to be laboriously explained in footnotes anyway). I was wavering on keeping it but I translated it to temporarily see how the translated term impacts the surrounding text, and I'll review the issue during editing.

Kenjutsu is used inconsistently in the story; sometimes it describes Japanese swordsmanship (like in reference to the Ayatsuji style), in which case there is reason to use it directly, but other times it is simply used to describe swordsmanship in general (like in reference to Ikki's ability to read and copy sword styles including non-Japanese ones like Stella's), in which case it should not be translated--however, this causes consistency problems because the usage in-story is sometimes ambiguous. Consistency is better for readability, and if the English reader must determine whether the topic is Japanese or general swordsmanship from context, it would be marginally more readable to consistently use "swordsmanship" than "kenjutsu".

Origami should always be translated unless truly special circumstances arise, because "origami" is an English word.

Also, if there is consensus information about professional translator practice somewhere, please link me so I can get caught up.

Don't remove furiganas, and symbols like 《》,「」, and『』 from volume 3, please.

I won't if you insist, but wouldn't that eventually lead to the volume having formatting inconsistent with the rest of the project?

[Kouen no Ten]

*waves*

As we discussed before, put them back if you want them. Though be aware that this was just a paragraphing/formatting pass, and I'll try to scrub the furigana during the actual smoothing passes (whenever I get to those), so you may need to put them back more than once.

And... there really weren't all that many furiganas?

Then, we'll put them back in when you're done.

Whether terms should be translated is highly context-dependent and should be evaluated on the specific details of the current text, not on sweeping policies. For example, the words ukenagashi, kenjutsu, and origami are not alike.

Obviously, but those "sweeping policies" (translated as - general rule of thumb you pick as you go) act as the signpost to help make the decision as to whether the term should be translated or not. I didn't mean 'like' as in 'similar words'.

Ukenagashi has a strong claim to direct usage because it describes something specific that can't be expressed succinctly in English; the problem is that its actual usage is so infrequent that the readability benefit of translating it to a less specific English word outweighs the descriptiveness of the succinct Japanese term (which has to be laboriously explained in footnotes anyway). I was wavering on keeping it but I translated it to temporarily see how the translated term impacts the surrounding text, and I'll review the issue during editing.

Kenjutsu is used inconsistently in the story; sometimes it describes Japanese swordsmanship (like in reference to the Ayatsuji style), in which case there is reason to use it directly, but other times it is simply used to describe swordsmanship in general (like in reference to Ikki's ability to read and copy sword styles including non-Japanese ones like Stella's), in which case it should not be translated--however, this causes consistency problems because the usage in-story is sometimes ambiguous. Consistency is better for readability, and if the English reader must determine whether the topic is Japanese or general swordsmanship from context, it would be marginally more readable to consistently use "swordsmanship" than "kenjutsu".

Ukenagashi is a technique that falls under kenjutsu, and such techniques are not translated. The same with Go no Sen.

Not really. You can easily figure it out by probing through the context. Feel free to contact me if you have such instances.

Origami should always be translated unless truly special circumstances arise, because "origami" is an English word.



Also, if there is consensus information about professional translator practice somewhere, please link me so I can get caught up.

The same as kenjutsu, it was originally Japanese, and it means the art of folding paper (especially Japanese style).

Just look up few J-E translated material by pros, and start noting what kind of terms they translate and what kind of terms they leave out in romaji. This will be better for you. - This is not sarcasm. I did something similar myself. I took The Old Capital translated by Martin Holman and started comparing it with the raw source.

However, if you want otherwise, then you can always google it around. There are lot of sites that tell you "do's and dont's" like SOAS, and et cetera. I have thousands of unsorted bookmarks, and within those exists few that could be of help to you, but I just don't feel like going through them now (too much of a hassle). Maybe later.

I won't if you insist, but wouldn't that eventually lead to the volume having formatting inconsistent with the rest of the project?

I'd like to compare the two formats. Let's wait till we remove the teaser tag, and decide what to do then.

-Cheers & Peace

[sirgoodguy]

Furiganas I don't care about them just use them in every novel or don't use them at all. As long as its all consistent but do note that they are annoying on Baka-reader Ex.

[KLSymph]

Whether terms should be translated is highly context-dependent and should be evaluated on the specific details of the current text, not on sweeping policies.

Obviously, but those "sweeping policies" (translated as - general rule of thumb you pick as you go) act as the signpost to help make the decision as to whether the term should be translated or not.

If they help make the decision, let's discuss the finer points of what they add to it.

Words like Ukenagashi should not be translated, just like Kenjutsu and Origami (consensus of majority of professional translators).

For example, the words ukenagashi, kenjutsu, and origami are not alike.

I didn't mean 'like' as in 'similar words'.

I'm... not sure what you mean by "like", then.

Ukenagashi is a technique that falls under kenjutsu, and such techniques are not translated. The same with Go no Sen.

Why not? The best reasons for using them directly are that they are special terms for concepts that the translation doesn't fully capture, but as I noted above, there isn't much call for fully capturing those concepts. These are techniques that the text refers to rarely, so translating them has little net impact to the text or the story, unlike other proper nouns such as character names. They're specialist terms even English-speakers who have some exposure to pop-culture Japanese can't be expect to know, so they don't have the benefit of commonality that "sensei" or "onii-sama" would have; English readers unfamiliar with kenjutsu are unlikely to grasp the full concept even with direct usage and footnotes explaining them. In that case, why not use the version that doesn't require them to read Japanese?

Not really. You can easily figure it out by probing through the context. Feel free to contact me if you have such instances.

Well, the question isn't whether you or I--both project translators who by definition know more Japanese than most English readers--can do it, but let's take a look at....

心技体三つ揃ってこその剣術だ。

Kenjutsu is made up of heart, technique, and body.

Is Ikki saying Japanese swordsmanship in particular is made of heart, technique, and body, or swordsmanship in general? Keeping in mind that you (I assume this is your translation which Bionic Meerkat is putting up) put it down as "kenjutsu".

And how about....

只でさえ『剣術』の力量は勝負にならない程離れてる。

Kurogane-kun beats me in <Swordsmanship>

Is Ayase saying she can't compete with Ikki in Japanese swordsmanship in particular, or swordsmanship in general?

Origami should always be translated unless truly special circumstances arise, because "origami" is an English word.

The same as kenjutsu, it was originally Japanese, and it means the art of folding paper (especially Japanese style).

Kenjutsu is not an English word the way origami is, according to the basic text of whether you can open an English dictionary
and find that word or not.

Also, if there is consensus information about professional translator practice somewhere, please link me so I can get caught up.

Just look up few J-E translated material by pros, and start noting what kind of terms they translate and what kind of terms they leave out in romaji. This will be better for you. - This is not sarcasm. I did something similar myself. I took The Old Capital translated by Martin Holman and started comparing it with the raw source.

Looking up some material is... not consensus. It's anecdote, which is a far cry indeed. (But since we're here, do those professionals use English furigana on top of English text in their translated material?)

However, if you want otherwise, then you can always google it around. There are lot of sites that tell you "do's and dont's" like SOAS, and et cetera. I have thousands of unsorted bookmarks, and within those exists few that could be of help to you, but I just don't feel like going through them now (too much of a hassle). Maybe later.

Taking into account my statement that term translations should be evaluated on the details of the current text, which you agree is obviously true, how many of them are working on Rakudai Kishi?

I'd like to compare the two formats. Let's wait till we remove the teaser tag, and decide what to do then.

No problem. I'm still hammering out an updated style guide, even.

*sigh*

I hate being That Guy who's always nitpicking everybody, but project quality needs someone to be That Guy and fuss about the details. (P.S. Chapter parts are separated at the black diamond, not at the ※※※. )

[Kouen no Ten]

I'm... not sure what you mean by "like", then.

I meant "like" as in they are all words that should be kept as Romaji.

Why not? The best reasons for using them directly are that they are special terms for concepts that the translation doesn't fully capture, but as I noted above, there isn't much call for fully capturing those concepts. These are techniques that the text refers to rarely, so translating them has little net impact to the text or the story, unlike other proper nouns such as character names. They're specialist terms even English-speakers who have some exposure to pop-culture Japanese can't be expect to know, so they don't have the benefit of commonality that "sensei" or "onii-sama" would have; English readers unfamiliar with kenjutsu are unlikely to grasp the full concept even with direct usage and footnotes explaining them. In that case, why not use the version that doesn't require them to read Japanese?

Go around and do some research on Kendo and all the katas and wazas, and see how people translate them. If you’re still not satisfied, and still want to translate similar terms, then we’ll just have to call in on a supervisor because of difference in opinion. We are not expecting anyone to know anything. We diligently placed references that explained foreign words.

心技体三つ揃ってこその剣術だ。

Kenjutsu is made up of heart, technique, and body.

Kenjutsu, because it relates to Japanese philosophy of Shingitai, and because both parties, who that sentence revolves around, are Kenjutsu practitioner.

只でさえ『剣術』の力量は勝負にならない程離れてる。

Kurogane-kun beats me in <Swordsmanship>

Obviously Kenjutsu, because of similar reasons as the one above.

Looking up some material is... not consensus. It's anecdote, which is a far cry indeed. (But since we're here, do those professionals use English furigana on top of English text in their translated material?)

Did I ever term it down as consensus in that sentence? No need to fall into sophistry, buddy. (Funny, I thought I had mentioned to you about how furiganas came to BT…)

Then, in the next sentence, I was talking about bookmarks which contained links to J-E university classroom material, and thus provide you with a set of general rules of thumb, but since it's a hassle going through those horrifying numbers of bookmarks, I won't right away.

*sigh*

I hate being That Guy who's always nitpicking everybody, but project quality needs someone to be That Guy and fuss about the details. (P.S. Chapter parts are separated at the black diamond, not at the ※※※. )

I see, but indeed, certainly, quality does matter, well then I suppose I’ll start TLC-ing after I am done with volume 3 and OreShura, because I see a lot of text that has been outright misinterpreted.

I’ll leave things at that. You can continue this if you want to, but I won’t entertain any further. Call on a supervisor if you disagree, and have him decide. I’ll abide by his or her decision no questions asked.

[KLSymph]

I meant "like" as in they are all words that should be kept as Romaji.

Yes, and then I rebutted that they're three different words with different applicable reasons for whether thy should or shouldn't be kept as romaji, so they're not "like" each other. Specifically, that ukenagashi is not like kenjutsu and origami, because ukenagashi has a better claim for needing to be kept as direct usage. What definition of "like" are you saying I was running with?

Go around and do some research on Kendo and all the katas and wazas, and see how people translate them. If you’re still not satisfied, and still want to translate similar terms, then we’ll just have to call in on a supervisor because of difference in opinion.

As you suggest.

We are not expecting anyone to know anything. We diligently placed references that explained foreign words.

Reference footnotes are a tool for explaining information tangential to the active story. They have a readability cost: you have to stop reading the story, move the page, read the reference, move the page back, and reconnect to the story. This is no substitute for translating words into English. My point is not that using the Japanese variant is bad because the reader may not understand it; my point is that properly addressing that risk has concrete readability costs that aren't justified by the net benefit to readers' understanding that using romaji gives over its English equivalent, based on how the term is used in the context of the surrounding story.

心技体三つ揃ってこその剣術だ。

Kenjutsu is made up of heart, technique, and body.

Kenjutsu, because it relates to Japanese philosophy of Shingitai, and because both parties, who that sentence revolves around, are Kenjutsu practitioner.

Do you contend that Ikki believes non-Japanese swordsmanship excludes the relationship between heart, technique, and body? I myself, having no more background in Japanese martial arts philosophy than most non-Japanese people, readily interpret Ikki's statement in the story context of "your body and technique are weakened because your heart is weakened" in a non-strictly-Japanese sense: a fighter is having morale problems and not fighting her best. Is my interpretation (based on the explicitly plot-parallel confrontation between Ikki and Shizuya in volume one, which isn't particular kenjutsu-related) so incorrect that our disagreement doesn't constitute ambiguity in the meaning of "kenjutsu" here?

Or let's turn this example right around: if 心技体 is a specific Japanese philosophical concept, why didn't you write shingitai instead of translating it? Not even a reference? I, a reader not familiar with that concept, came to a less clear interpretation based on your translation choice. How should we reconcile an insistence on keeping "kenjutsu" with such abnegation of "shingitai" even though shingitai adds at least as much? I think I'd be much more agreeable about keeping "kenjutsu" if I knew "shingitai" was a special concept while I was editing and managed to make that fit in... but it's likely I would've removed it the same way you did.

只でさえ『剣術』の力量は勝負にならない程離れてる。

Kurogane-kun beats me in <Swordsmanship>

Obviously Kenjutsu, because of similar reasons as the one above.

Do you contend that Ayase believes Ikki beats her only in Japanese swordsmanship, and not every other kind? Based on my reading of the story, I think that Ayase believes Ikki could beat her at any type of swordsmanship (not the least because Ayase isn't known to practice any other type, while Ikki has at least stolen and used Stella's style). Is my interpretation so incorrect that our disagreement doesn't constitute ambiguity?

Words like Ukenagashi should not be translated, just like Kenjutsu and Origami (consensus of majority of professional translators).

Also, if there is consensus information about professional translator practice somewhere, please link me so I can get caught up.

Just look up few J-E translated material by pros, and start noting what kind of terms they translate and what kind of terms they leave out in romaji. This will be better for you. - This is not sarcasm. I did something similar myself. I took The Old Capital translated by Martin Holman and started comparing it with the raw source.

Looking up some material is... not consensus. It's anecdote, which is a far cry indeed.

Did I ever term it down as consensus in that sentence? No need to fall into sophistry, buddy.

Of course you didn't term it as consensus. That's why I pointed it out that it's not consensus, because I asked for a link documenting the consensus you were talking about and you responded with anecdote which doesn't can't be used to establish consensus. Still hoping for some of that sweet consensus info!

(But since we're here, do those professionals use English furigana on top of English text in their translated material?)

(Funny, I thought I had mentioned to you about how furiganas came to BT…)

Personally, I think Larethian did a great job introducing furigana to this community, and I love furiganas.
(link)

*Looks up Larethian's profile*

I'm... not sure how that answers the question?

Then, in the next sentence, I was talking about bookmarks which contained links to J-E university classroom material, and thus provide you with a set of general rules of thumb, but since it's a hassle going through those horrifying numbers of bookmarks, I won't right away.

Yes, but again, that's not consensus information either.

I’ll leave things at that. You can continue this if you want to, but I won’t entertain any further. Call on a supervisor if you disagree, and have him decide. I’ll abide by his or her decision no questions asked.

Alright, let's go with that.

[lifeman120]

Page one - From left to right -《Failure Knight》Kurogane Ikki - Tomaru clenched her fist to put an end to the fight- when Ikki, even with his superhuman sight, was no longer able to follow, even, her afterimage. - 「Here I come. Supersonic attack!」 - 《Runner’s High》Tomaru Renren -.

Page two - From left to right - Ayatsuji Ayase - Stella and Ayase, having changed into their respective swimsuits, arrived several minutes later than Ikki. - 「If it’s like this, we’ll be able to play without worrying about the surroundings!」- 《Crimson Royal Princess》Stella -.

Colour page 1: Colour page 1

Colour page 2: Colour page 2

Index: index

awaiting translation for last colour page (still not done with cleaning it but it's useful to have it already)

[Kouen no Ten]

Page one - From left to right -《Failure Knight》Kurogane Ikki - Tomaru clenched her fist to put an end to the fight- when Ikki, even with his superhuman sight, was no longer able to follow, even, her afterimage. - 「Here I come. Supersonic attack!」 - 《Runner’s High》Tomaru Renren -.

Page two - From left to right - Ayatsuji Ayase - Stella and Ayase, having changed into their respective swimsuits, arrived several minutes later than Ikki. - 「If it’s like this, we’ll be able to play without worrying about the surroundings!」- 《Crimson Royal Princess》Stella -.

Colour page 1: Colour page 1

Colour page 2: Colour page 2

Index: index

awaiting translation for last colour page (still not done with cleaning it but it's useful to have it already)

From left to right.

《Scharlach Frau》 Toutokubara Kanata

《Fifty Fifty》 Misogi Utakata
“It seems I had been underestimating you a little bit.”

《Sword Eater》 Kurashiki Kuraudo
"Let’s do it. I know you have it, the device."

Edit: Simon's verdict -

Spoiler! :

Hello everyone,
Simon is fine. I don't really care how I'm addressed as long as you're not 'PROzess'...

So... as I can understand from your conversation on the forums, you have the following problems:

• context-dependent words and substitutes (localization)
• (excessive) use of Furigana
• Formatting (《》,「」, 『』, etc.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first topic to start with would be the context-dependent terms.

KLSymph, your position and argumentation is correct. And I also agree that many terms can be changed/localized to the maximize readability, yet I must disagree with this case.
As you stated, the word 'Kenjutsu' can be translated as 'Swordsmanship', yet it refers to a specific branch of Swordsmanship. Mainly the traditional Japanese Swordsmanship.
I have to admit that I still haven't read this novel, yet. Those, I can't point out specific parts of the novel but I can probably assume that the novel refers to Swordsmanship as a global knowledge of sword fighting skills.

Also, do not forget that what you are doing is Translation and not Localization (contradiction, I know). I mean that you have to look at it from a different perspective.
What Kenjutsu (Swordsmanship) for Japanese is, would be the same as fencing (Swordsmanship) for us. Or Karag Yudh would also be a type of Swordsmanship for the Indian folk.
I hope you understand where this is going. Short: You have an English speaking audience that you don't want to confuse with the Swordsmanship styles that those people use.

This would also mean that the sword techniques would also stay the same.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Furigana... Once I get that cat, I'm gonna pop his insides out.

In my opinion, Furigana shouldn't be overused. No, it should be limited to only necessary parts. Which are tricky to explain or it is not possible to normally explain to the reader. Or when you have a problem with Kanji and Furigana itself.
If I remember right, there was this case. Where was it... ah! HERE, this probably what I mean. I think.

But as KLSymph said, it will confuse people(if placed wrong or without an explanation). I'd rather let you decide this one, but in my honest opinion. If possible, do not rely on Furingana.
If needed, use it. If not, let it be. You'll save the reader some time by not letting him/her read it and you won't have any problems displaying it on other devices than a desktop PC. Which actually shouldn't be your problem if it looks bad or not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formatting

If you are using it to make it look better, let it be. If you are going to highlight some specific words/sentences with it, that shouldn't be a problem if you can't use the basic italic or bold styles.
Use it to grab the attention, but not for strong intonations or under breath sentences/words.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I hate being That Guy who's always nitpicking everybody, but project quality needs someone to be That Guy and fuss about the details."

Hey, being "That Guy" is not the wrong choice. As long as it's a constructive discussion. Without someone nitpicking things around here there wouldn't be much to do.


If I missed a point or two, feel free to contact me again.

Regards,
Simon

Also, everyone, I'll be slow with the updates for a while. I am currently out of country, in India. I was doing few IT certifications here, and now that I am done, I will be going back to Chicago (Yay~~). So, I am kinda busy shopping for souvenirs for my family and friends back home, and touring around the country. However, I think I'll be able to muster out a chapter biweekly.

[Kouen no Ten]

Okay, so the conflict went on after that, and we discussed about a lot of topics (or maybe not (but we did talk about furiganas and KLS agreed to keep in Kenjutsu)), but in the end KLS and I couldn't agree with one another.

So, I've decided that due to consent clashes between me and KLS on principles, values and whatnot, I will be walking away from this project. I would like to give my thanks to my editor/Buddy/homie, Bionic, for all that he has done for the project, dual blades for his or her contributions, sirgoodguy for just being there , the CAT! for starting this project and being so free all the time (当に猫), lifeman for cleaning up and typesetting pages (good work buddy), and last but not the least KLS for being a good editor, translator, and a good acting project manager. It was certainly fun working together with everyone, and I hope to see you guys around.

For now, I'll start translating Oreshura, but after finishing it, I've got few LNs to introduce to the BT community. Please look forward to it. Might even restart STB (don't get your hopes up, because I probably won't until I see improvement in the novel).