Campione! - Names, Terminology and Stylistic Issues

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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Kadi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:30 am

Koakuma wrote:Just throwing it out of the blue, but I'd agree that Miko is fine as is due mainly how the author didn't made the distinction clear in the first place (Even though he did made a difference between "Witch" and "Miko")

I refuse to call western priestesses miko any longer. Any longer than necessary, that is, I'll finish my own translation work before I start editing. And I'm quite sure Jou-chan used miko because it works in Japanese and there are no better alternatives. It doesn't work as well in English, so I'm looking for a better way.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Mystes » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:52 pm

zzhk wrote:*Edit:
Speaking of wide-reaching overhauls of terminology, I'm surprised I didn't realize earlier, but what about mana for "magical power"?

I've personally got nothing against mana, but magical power is fine enough. As long as we don't encounter a situation where the term "mana" is used as something else in Campione...
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:35 am

Not a translation issue but a minor wiki-related one...

Chapter filenames.

For all volumes, the format has been "Volume_X_ChapterY" but then Volume 12 and 13 have started using "Volume_X_Chapter_Y" with an added underscore before the chapter number.

Frankly, the extra space looks better personally, but it would be a pain to rename all the old pages (plus that would get rid of all the edit history, right?).

Since Volume 12 only has one chapter posted, I propose renaming it for consistency. By renaming, I mean deleting the old page and creating a new one, unless there's actually a rename function I'm unaware of.

Thoughts?
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Misogi » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:42 am

There's only the "Move" function that allows you to rename a page.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Ah ok, that actually makes it slightly feasible to rename everything... But all the links between chapters would still need to be updated to skip the redirection.

It's a minor issue, really, but simply something that should be decided for consistency.

So, decision for Kadi:
Rename Volume 12 Chapter 1 (and modify the red links for V13 before they get used), or rename everything else?

*Edit:
A separate issue --

Looking at the V10 Japanese, on page 39 (Chapter 1 Part 3), Black Prince Alec signed his borrowing note with "Alexandre Gascoigne."
So I guess we'll need to go back and fix all instances of Alexander to Alexandre?
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby aagcnet » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:51 pm

IN chapter 1 of vol 1 we have this line "No, there's still someone. Kusanagi Godou's name hasn't been mentioned yet. He is the new king, the seventh Campione, and the one I'm talking about. Since Lord Salvatore isn't here, the only one we can ask is him.

In the epilogue we have " That was Kusanagi Godou's title in everyday life. Not godslayer, not a monster, and definitely not the sixth devil king. "
there seems to be either an error in the translation or a typo in the novel BUT godou is refered more than once as the seventh not sixth. Anyone mind checking which one is true? :D
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Kadi » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:13 pm

He's called the seventh. Thanks for pointing it out, feel free to change it whenever you see it wrong.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:22 am

I originally assumed the Boar incantation was a done deal, but lately there's been some discussion on its accuracy.

So, let's put our minds together to finalize the Boar incantation as a first step towards standardization.

JP:
鋭く近寄り難き者よ
契約を破りし罪科に鉄槌を下せ
I'm not very good at typing Japanese, so if anyone wants to discuss the longer version, please post the JP from Volume 1.

Taiwanese official version (from Volume 5):
若吾乃銳牙難近身者
便遵從主之言給予汝破滅

(Simplified for those who need it):
若吾乃锐牙难近身者
便遵从主之言给予汝破灭
Which reads: "Were I the sharp-fanged unapproachable one, thou shalt be purged by the will of the Lord."
The second part is off because I suspect the translation was copy-pasted from the long version in Volume 1 which has the oath-breaking at the beginning of the chant.

Chinese fan translation:
敏捷至难以接近之人啊
给予打破契约之罪人以惩罚之铁锤
Which reads: "The one so keen as to be unapproachable, lay down the iron hammer of punishment upon oath-breaking sinners."
The main difference in the first section is the different interpretation of 鋭 as "keen" vs "sharp-fanged."
Edit: note that "iron hammer" and "oath-breaking" is in the JP, so the fan translation is more accurate for the second part.

For comparison, here are two separate English translations of the Avestan Yashts (hymns of praise) from Zoroastrianism, which suggests that the "sharp fangs" interpretation made by the Taiwanese official translation is actually correct. (On a related note, should we replace instances of 聖句 scripture with yasht instead?)

Translation 1(source):
70. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake;
'Before whom Verethraghna, made by Ahura, runs opposing the foes in the shape of a boar, a sharp-toothed he-boar, a sharp-jawed boar, that kills at one stroke, pursuing, wrathful, with a dripping face; strong, with iron feet, iron fore-paws, iron weapons, an iron tail, and iron jaws;

71. 'Who, eagerly clinging to the fleeing foe, along with Manly Courage, smites the foe in battle, and does not think he has smitten him, nor does he consider it a blow till he has smitten away the marrow and the column of life, the marrow and the spring of existence.

72. 'He cuts all the limbs to pieces, and mingles, together with the earth, the bones, hair, brains, and blood of the men who have lied unto Mithra.
'For his brightness and glory, we offer him a sacrifice worth being heard....


Translation 2(source):
Yt.10.70
We sacrifice to Mithra who provides wide grazing grounds
... wakeful.
In front of him flies
the obstruction-smashing strength set in place by Ahura Mazdâ,
in the form of a boar, aggressive, with sharp fangs,
male, with sharp tusks,
a boar who (only needs) to strike once,
unapproachable (when) angered,
with *speckled forehead, firm,
with hind legs and forelegs of iron,
with sinews of iron, with tail of iron,
with jaws of iron.

Yt.10.71
When he runs forward *to face the opponent
accompanied by *single-mindedness,
together with Manly *Courage,
with one *blow he strikes down the opponents.
And he does not think he has struck
(anything) or even seems to be striking
until he crushes
both the marrow (that is) the column of life,
and the marrow (that is) the source of the life breath.

Yt.10.72
With one blow he cuts them all out together,
and at once mingles together all over the ground
the bones and the hair, the brains and the blood
of the men who break the contract.
On account of his wealth and munificence ...
Thus, we sacrifice to the male and female deities ...
Battles the powers of the Lie.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby arczyx » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:43 am

I like the taiwanese official version more. The chinese fan translation version is somehow too long and harder to understand 8)
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Kadi » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:08 am

From the Japanese standpoint, as close and literally as I can do it:
鋭く近寄り難き者よ
契約を破りし罪科に鉄槌を下せ

Oh sharp-fanged who is difficult to approach,
Bring down the iron hammer on the offense of violating contracts


The choice of "sharp-fanged" is inspired by zzhk's research, which I agree with, grammar-wise I am not too sure. It is justified by the Japanese though. All I'm saying here is that there would be other possibilities (especially "of keen mind"/"perceptive") going by this line as a source alone.

Now we can add/change some fluff (iron hammer to hammer of justice, offense of violating contracts to something with oathbreaking, who is difficult to approach to unapproachable one, or even better alternatives) and make it sound as epically as possible.


聖句 as yasht... I'm against it.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:33 am

Voban's authority, [Hungry Wolves] sounds a bit plain.

How about Ravenous or Gluttonous instead of hungry?
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Kadi » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:45 am

I thought it was "Legion of Hungry Wolves"? At least the Japanese Wiki entry says 貪る群狼(リージョン・オブ・ハングリーウルヴズ), and the Furigana literally say "Legion of Hungry Wolves". Haven't checked where the novels use those Furigana. Anyway, that is not so bad that I see a need to change it, unlike, say, Salvatore's "Silverarm the Ripper" or some of Alec's Authorities.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:20 pm

I didn't mention legion because that's not the point.

That's interesting, the furigana in V11 is purely hiragana so I thought it didn't have a "western" reading. I guess I should check V2 instead. Anyway, sure, if it's in the furigana (at some point), just leave it.

*Edit: Volume 2 Prologue has 貪(むさぼ)る群狼(ぐんろう) as well. Not sure about the rest of the volume.
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby zzhk » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Judging from the cover of the author's newest series, Leviathan of the Covenant:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5598

It looks like the preferred spelling of the author's name is Takeduki Joe.
Thoughts?
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Re: Campione! - Terminology, Editing and Translation Issues

Postby Hiyono » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:07 pm

Leaving the larger discussion of romanization systems to those more knowledgeable, it's worth noting that a "d", to a native English speaker, is not at all representative of the actual voiced phoneme. "Du" would suggest a pronunciation like the English "do", which is quite different from the voiced づ, which is essentially pronounced identically to the English word "zoo". It would seem a bit contradictory to expend so much effort with regards to word usage, and yet use such a "jarring" form of romanization. (It's quite likely that the chosen romanization is simply an artifact of the way that phoneme is described In Japanese IMEs.)
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