English ZnT Project Staff

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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby onizuka-gto » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:54 am

well, being TOO specific can also be handicap as well, but i do like those definition.

I don't want individual rules for registration for each project, it has to be one that will apply to all.

it will become too complicated to keep track if it does.

But i also need to see how this can work, so i think any new ideas for the registration process will only apply to Z.N.T for now, a trial run if you will.

If it is successful.or people can easily understand it, then it will replace the current standard, if it makes no significant impact then at the end of the deadline either a new revise version will be reintroduced or it will revert back to the old standard.

Con2k, i would like you to add those definitions to the Z.N.T specific guideline page if you can.

I think i will move this topic to the UFG forum as well.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Darknemo2000 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:07 am

I dont see how Registration 5 percent rule would be harmful. If translator really wants to contribute he would anyway, but since unregistering a person from the chapter is still time consuming process the translator who wants to register for a particular chapter should also have to show that he has serious intensions.

And the best way to show it would be to produce at least five percent of the text - around one pharagraph which usually is 3-5 sentences, and I do not think thats a lot.

Since again, my intensions may be the best but if I register without providing anything and then other people have to ask for my permission to keep translating (though i havent even touched that chapter) seems a little bit weird.

So to show that my intensions are serious I should at least provide some translations for Baka-Tsuki to confirm my status as a translator for the chapter. And only then , if my status is confirmed, I could be listed as a translator of the chapter.

Furthermore, this might help from the other point = mainly, from my personal experience I know, that one of the hardest moments while writting/translating something is the beginning, but if i am willing to be registered to a chapter I already have to produce the very beginning of it. Even if its not much, but it could give a further roll to keep on working on it.

Well anyway, if we count that the 5 percent Registering rule is functional then we see that:

Volume 2 - Albion of the Wind / 風のアルビオン

* Chapter 1 - christof - Completed
* Chapter 2 - Claies - Completed
* Chapter 3 - GDsMDDLFNGR - Completed
* Chapter 4 - christof - Completed
* Chapter 5 - naturesbless - Working on it
* Chapter 6 - Claies - Completed
* Chapter 7 - None (Darknemo2000 ~Preview~)
* Chapter 8 - None (Darknemo2000 ~Preview~) [Magus is not considered as a confirmed translator]
* Chapter 9 - None

Volume 3 - The Founder's Prayer Book / 始祖の祈祷書

* Chapter 1 - None [Strike Chaos is not considered as a confirmed translator]
* Chapter 2 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 3 - None
* Chapter 4 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 5 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 6 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 7 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 8 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 9 - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 10 - Momogan - Completed

Volume 4 - The Water Spirit of Oath / 誓約の水精霊

* Prologue - Momogan - Completed
* Chapter 1 - Momogan
* Chapter 2 - None
* Chapter 3 - None
* Chapter 4 - None
* Chapter 5 - None
* Chapter 6 - None
* Chapter 7 - None
* Chapter 8 - None
* Chapter 9 - None
* Epilogue - None

Volume 5 - Tristania's Holiday / トリスタニアの休日

* Chapter 1 - None [Vertiful is not considered as a confirmed translator]
* Chapter 2 - None
* Chapter 3 - None

It doesn't solve all the problems, but at least it would help to avoid someone registering but due to many reasons never doing the translation...
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Darknemo2000 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:12 am

Well anonymous translations may be still a problem, since the level of translations may be bit too unreliable... So yeah it is an wishful thinking from my part... But as far as 5 percent ruke (in order to confirm registration) goes I find it to be very reasonable.
Last edited by Darknemo2000 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Const2k » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:03 pm

onizuka-gto wrote:I don't want individual rules for registration for each project, it has to be one that will apply to all.
I totally agree with Darknemo2000 when he says that chapter can be assigned to translator only after he has already uploaded some of its translation, not after he has only expessed his intention to translate it. However, I'm sceptic about "anonymous" translators and editors, since quality of their works is unpredictable. For example, if I've compared some parts of Momogan's translation to Japanese raws I have and haven't found major dissimilarities, I can be sure his other translations are of equal quality. When translator is unknown, so are his works...
Simply put, I also think that giving chapter to translator should be done only when he proves by actions (not by words) that he's worth of it. And if this system will be applied to all projects, everyone will benefit from this, IMO.

onizuka-gto wrote:But i also need to see how this can work, so i think any new ideas for the registration process will only apply to Z.N.T for now, a trial run if you will.
If it is successful.or people can easily understand it, then it will replace the current standard, if it makes no significant impact then at the end of the deadline either a new revise version will be reintroduced or it will revert back to the old standard.
Frankly speaking, I don't think we'll get major response on ZnT. I hope I'm wrong, but, judging by overall ZnT (in-)activity, it seems to me all this is done just to move most of 'active' translators/editors into MIA/KIA group and unregister a couple of long forgotten chapters... Not a "major impact", definitely :-/

onizuka-gto wrote:Con2k, i would like you to add those definitions to the Z.N.T specific guideline page if you can.
Oni, I admit you're inventive, but just "C2k" from now on, okay?
Thanks.

"ZnT specific guideline page"? Is there any? For example, SH has such one; do you want me to create something similar? That would be troublesome. Well, the content for ZnT guidelines is on the forums, so I won't have problems with finding it; I'm worried that "Guidelines" can't be more "official" and important for the project - they are "rules", and I can't write rules for translators when I myself make mistakes in my English. I'm sure there are at least a couple of them in my previous "spoilers", so I just can't publish them as they are.
I can devote a few hours to ZnT this week-end, but I must be sure there will be no mistakes in this "ZnT Constitution". So, oni, if you're still going to ask me do this, I'll once again need your help in proofreading and editing my translations.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Matt122004 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:58 pm

I sure hope you do it. :)

I'm rooting for you. lol

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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Claies » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:33 pm

I'd take their names off the registration page if they're not working on it. I took my own name off my last signup so somebody else can take on the job.

I understand the "shying away translators" thing, because you have no idea what you should do when so many chapters are taken.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby onizuka-gto » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:04 am

Const2k wrote:I totally agree with Darknemo2000 when he says that chapter can be assigned to translator only after he has already uploaded some of its translation, not after he has only expressed his intention to translate it. However, I'm sceptic about "anonymous" translators and editors, since quality of their works is unpredictable. For example, if I've compared some parts of Momogan's translation to Japanese raws I have and haven't found major dissimilarities, I can be sure his other translations are of equal quality. When translator is unknown, so are his works...
Simply put, I also think that giving chapter to translator should be done only when he proves by actions (not by words) that he's worth of it. And if this system will be applied to all projects, everyone will benefit from this, IMO.


So, let me try to understand this system, the chapters will be "officially" un-registered, that is, until a registered contributor publish a portion of translated script, and therefore shows an intent by action that they are committed to complete the chapter?

The question now, is what happens if the this contributor does not publish sufficient amount of translated script or/and the quality if not up to standard?

Do we remove the script or allow it to stay? And will the new contributor continue where it was left incomplete or will they have to start from the beginning?


Const2k wrote:"ZnT specific guideline page"? Is there any? For example, SH has such one; do you want me to create something similar? That would be troublesome. Well, the content for ZnT guidelines is on the forums, so I won't have problems with finding it; I'm worried that "Guidelines" can't be more "official" and important for the project - they are "rules", and I can't write rules for translators when I myself make mistakes in my English. I'm sure there are at least a couple of them in my previous "spoilers", so I just can't publish them as they are.
I can devote a few hours to ZnT this week-end, but I must be sure there will be no mistakes in this "ZnT Constitution". So, oni, if you're still going to ask me do this, I'll once again need your help in proofreading and editing my translations.


Yes. it will be similar to the specific guidelines for SHnY, it is no more of a "constitution" as oppose to...well...anything.

it will only apply to ZnT, the general format guidelines apply where the specific does not mention.

I merely mentioned the creation of such a page so that i can clearly see points we are addressing in this thread.

However you raise i point, anything labelled as "Guideline" on the Wiki is by default considered in "effect" as in the codified text are applicable immediately.

Therefore lets make this more easier for you, i have created a "Draft" page,


You can find it here:

http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... 7EDraft%7E


all amended/codified issues here are not in effect and as stated in the page.

So please do not worry about your English for now C2K, i simply wish to see clearly all the issues brought into this thread so there can be more organization ans clarity.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Const2k » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:44 pm

onizuka-gto wrote:So, let me try to understand this system, the chapters will be "officially" un-registered, that is, until a registered contributor publish a portion of translated script, and therefore shows an intent by action that they are committed to complete the chapter?
That's right.
onizuka-gto wrote:The question now, is what happens if the this contributor does not publish sufficient amount of translated script or/and the quality if not up to standard?
Not enough text? He shouldn't be a registered translator.
Quality standard is another topic, and it can be much harder to codify, so I'd omit it here - for the sake of simplicity.
onizuka-gto wrote:Do we remove the script or allow it to stay?
Well, there are 'pro' and 'contra' arguments, so I can't say for sure. That must be thought of... On another hand, though, less than kilobyte of text is hardly worth discussion.
onizuka-gto wrote:And will the new contributor continue where it was left incomplete or will they have to start from the beginning?
I think this decision must be left up to translator.
onizuka-gto wrote:Therefore lets make this more easier for you, i have created a "Draft" page,
You can find it here:
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... 7EDraft%7E
all amended/codified issues here are not in effect and as stated in the page.
So please do not worry about your English for now C2K, i simply wish to see clearly all the issues brought into this thread so there can be more organization ans clarity.
Due to some issues I wasn't able to post these ideas last weekend, but that gave me time to think them over again. That magic word 'draft' indeed allows me stop worrying about possible mistakes; it's a pity I didn't think of it myself earlier... So, here is requested 'summary' (though Oni pretended to be unable to sum up the thread by himself, 'wikifying' it will be useful for discussion): http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... 7EDraft%7E
I hope I didn't forget too much. Conider this to be a pre-alpha version :)
Now it's your turn to deal with my mistakes... ;)
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Darknemo2000 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:07 pm

Well the main point of the rule i offered is to make , registration process bit more demanding than just ones voicing agreement and planning to do so in the future.

From your comment it sounds as if the portion of translation would be big, but i do not think it should be too big. One paragraph or less depending on the length of the sentences. Around 3-6 sentences (depending on the length of them). It cant be too short (one sentence of few words) but it cant be too long either.

As for what to do with the translation that one translator posted but eventually was not able to find the time to finish - well the other translator who would take upon the translation should decide himself/herself what to do with the translation that other translator provided.

If he thinks that he would feel better if the whole chapter would be done by his hand only, he has the right to remove the translation of previous translator, but only replacing the existing text with his own.

Until the existing text is replaced the text remains.

If he decides to keep going from the point the previous translator left, he she would have to provide one paragraph of the text after the translation (to confirm a registration).
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Const2k » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:29 am

It seems to me that relative measurement of translation's progress (percentage) is better when work should've been done by specified time or date. When exact date or overall translation size is unknown, there's no other option than absolute measurement (lines, symbols etc.). I think we here should use measuring in bytes because wiki shows amount of changes in symbols (or in bytes), making counting accurate size of contribution easy. Well, I almost sure these are symbols; if not, then these are bytes, and amount of actual text in given number of bytes becomes even smaller because of multi-byte encoding (Unicode or UTF-8) being used on wiki.
As for "how big kilobyte is", I should've given "digital" rather than "analogue" example earlier; moreover, I've given "rule of thumb" we'd been using at school (that is, almost a decade ago) for estimating homework articles' size. For example, this post up to and including this sentence is about 1100 bytes long, which is, roughly, 1.1 kilobytes in ASCII (plain text, where 1 symbol = 1 byte) or twice larger in Unicode (where 1 symbol = 2 bytes).
I don't think it's too much to prove you're actually translating chapter rather than just going to do it. Probably, it can be lowered from this round number for newly taken chapters (not for those that were taken over), but not up to a few sentences, which can be done using even online translator...
On the other hand, 1kB isn't too much to lose in case of translators' conflict over one chapter (which is unlikely to happen at ZnT, but still theoretically possible); would it be, say, 2kB, losing that amount of work might prevent the one who's lost from taking another chapter in the future.

To make it short, lower limit of translation for chapter registration should be 1kB to make checking it easy (for both translator and stuff) and prove that translator's intention will either lead to his actual translation or make life easier for the next translator of this chapter.

I support the idea of gradual update, as not only this proves translator's alive and kicking, but allows editors do their job simultaneously with translator. But that should be a recommendation (not obligation, as ZnT translators, unfortunately, are too rare and valuable to be actually punished).

Oni, I'm going to unregister following dropped chapters: volume 2 chapters 5 & 8, vol.3 ch.1 and vol.5 ch.1. What system should I use / are proposed changes in effect over ZnT already? The week from my first post passed already, and no objections were received, so I think I'm free to proceed, simultaneously informing "translators" (or more likely, everyone other) about my actions.

P.S. And, BTW, though I don't know the reasons behind posts here requiring premoderation, but this greatly slows down discussion IMO. If this is considered to be an "evolution" of forum censorship, I'd rather call it "degradation". No offense intended, and I won't grieve if this "P.S." doesn't appear at all, but I think user [email protected] (another example of censorship) might be of interest to censors.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby onizuka-gto » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:59 am

since there seem to be no objection and at this moment, and since i haven't been able to have any free time for this pass week to contemplate it.

I agree with your assessment C2K, let this system commence trial period.

As long as all further changes are posted in this thread for record purposes for debate, (which i suggest a minimum of one week) before being implimented.

I will appreciate if any major incidence that cannot be resolved to please contact me directly, via P.M.

Besides that i will review the system every month, until June where i will make an overall decision into whether we should addopt this system for all our current projects.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Const2k » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:32 pm

onizuka-gto wrote:since there seem to be no objection and at this moment, and since i haven't been able to have any free time for this pass week to contemplate it.
I agree with your assessment C2K, let this system commence trial period.
As long as all further changes are posted in this thread for record purposes for debate, (which i suggest a minimum of one week) before being implimented.
I will appreciate if any major incidence that cannot be resolved to please contact me directly, via P.M.
Besides that i will review the system every month, until June where i will make an overall decision into whether we should addopt this system for all our current projects.
It's been a while... I've just unregistered vol.2 ch.5 & 8, and it seems to me that marking inactive translators as '(inactive for more than 1 month)' near their chapters would be useful as well. Currently there are two of them - Strike Chaos (30 December 2007) and Vertiful (2 January 2008). Since such 'label' can be given only when someone doesn't do anything within two months, I think it won't require much attention, at the same time giving visitors clear picture of what's going on. Should I add this to guidelines?
BTW, if guidelines are in effect, why is there "~Draft~" and what not? Shouldn't ZnT Guidelines page be renamed/recreated then?
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby onizuka-gto » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:58 pm

Estimated time of Evaluation & Conclusion of this proposal

Apologies for the delay, I have schedule a deadline to conclude this proposal in regards to the revision of the entire translation registration process.
While it seems that some the procedures mentioned here are already being employed in other projects, I'm setting a deadline for an official conclusion by the 24-26th December 2008 so realistically I will be resuming activity here a week in advance to resume commenting in the run up to the deadline.

Thank you.
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby Zyzzyva165 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:59 am

onizuka-gto wrote:Estimated time of Evaluation & Conclusion of this proposal
...I'm setting a deadline for an official conclusion by the 24-26th December 2008 ...


:roll:

:D
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Re: English ZnT Project Staff

Postby onizuka-gto » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:13 pm

well. i was dying


how could i do anything?


sheesh.

yeah, okay. lets make this official.

its more less this way anyway.


its done!

next task!

*looks for the Staff Responsibility document draft*


curse this 3TB of space!

>_<
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