Maria-sama ga Miteru

[enn_are]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

1) Those changes look fine.

2) I checked the text, it is just Yumi (no honorifics), so presumably it's Sachiko that's asking.

3) Personally, I think it's better to use the discussion page just because it's easier to get to the page / history / context. But the forum is probably more visible. Either one works.

4) I have no opinion regarding cleaning out the main discussion page - typically I only view the diff when changes are made, so it doesn't really bother me if it contains old or outdated information. That said, I disagree with one of the comments you made on that page - the volumes that were removed are unlikely to be re-translated, at least by me.

[Lunar Vitae]

Thanks for the reply, enn_are!

1 & 2: glad to hear. Thank you for taking the time to look those up.

3: that leaves me just as unsure as before, haha. The discussion page makes sense, but how would anyone know a concern is there unless they check each page, or check every day for recent changes? I like the idea of the visibility a post on the forums would see, and opens it to others to share input more easily, in my opinion. Or, in case it becomes a long and detailed discussion.

Or maybe I'm just not used to the wiki format yet.

4: ah, sorry! I didn't intend to volunteer you for the job, but it seems like that is exactly how it was written. I'll go fix that.

Regarding the page itself; I suppose that makes sense. I was thinking along the lines of visitors and the like when I decided to clean the page.



Aaaand, while I'm here, I thought I should mention that what we have for volume 19 may very well need to be redone. Volume 20 is a bit stiff, as well. I can fix all the grammatical and consistency errors without fuss, but I can't touch any dialogue, which is where most of the issues are. By that I mean, if the dialogue itself is obviously written improperly, I can fix it. But if it has to do with the translation itself and thus affecting the scene, my hands would be tied. It's hard to describe this while maintaining a ... positive and respectful description. I don't want to volunteer anyone for the job of revisiting either volume; I just wanted to let everyone know what I observed.

I think what I'll do is make any and all corrections I am capable of and allowed to do, and note where we'll need a translator to take a look should one become available, willing, and able.

[Lunar Vitae]

Pay no mind to my last comments regarding Volume 20. That is my typical, "OMGWTFBBQ engage panic mode!" whenever I come across something that requires some thought and time. Whether it's merchandising or editing. Or life.

It's a really, really bad habit of mine. Anyway ...

Vol 20, Chapter 2 (or 1.2 according to the wiki), part 1 has some questionable character lines.

The first one, which I rewrote, originally said 'Yumi may be made to answer, thought Yoshino' when they were talking about Eriko showing up at the athletic festival, around Line 112 (wiki). My question is: was this narration, or Yoshino's actual thought? I assume the honorific was forgotten in either case ... except that, it is wholly possible to omit one when thinking to yourself. I think.

The second, I actually placed a "note" by in wikitext, line 118:

Spoiler! :

"I think Eriko-sama wasn't very happy when I met her. Eriko-sama told me to work hard and to show my soeur to Eriko-sama before I showed her to anyone else."

Here, there's so many "Eriko." It's almost required with the gender, but it makes for difficult reading. If this a close translation, I can clean it up. Unless, of course, Yoshino is actually saying Eriko so often, and this is actually part of the speech mannerism. I thought it best to reference the source material first, though.

Third, the very last line, and a needless note attached. 'Without hearing Yumi-san's opinion, she had been given parts of the work.' is literally one sentence talking about two objects separately. The first half references the previous action by Sachiko, and the latter talks abut Yumi getting the paper. A rewrite could go either direction, or spawn two completely new sentences.

Enn_are, I know you're busy cranking out Volume 26 (at an astonishing pace, if I may say so!), but I hope you might take a look at these items if and when you find the time.

[enn_are]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

I'll try and answer your questions, but I wasn't the original translator for that volume, so some of my answers may not be right.

Vol 20, Chapter 2 (or 1.2 according to the wiki), part 1 has some questionable character lines.

The wiki doesn't seem to match the book in terms of chapter layout. The text that's in https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/inde ... 0_Chapter1 is just the first part of chapter one, "Right or Wrong, An Audition." What's on the wiki at https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/inde ... Chapter1.2 is actually parts 2-6 of the first chapter. https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/inde ... Chapter1.3 is the second chapter, which should probably be called "Maria-sama's Star"

If you're making changes in this area, could you update this too? If not, I'll do it some time in the future.

The first one, which I rewrote, originally said 'Yumi may be made to answer, thought Yoshino' when they were talking about Eriko showing up at the athletic festival, around Line 112 (wiki). My question is: was this narration, or Yoshino's actual thought? I assume the honorific was forgotten in either case ... except that, it is wholly possible to omit one when thinking to yourself. I think.

It's narration - the translation was incorrectly omitting the honorific.

The second, I actually placed a "note" by in wikitext, line 118:

Spoiler! :

"I think Eriko-sama wasn't very happy when I met her. Eriko-sama told me to work hard and to show my soeur to Eriko-sama before I showed her to anyone else."

Here, there's so many "Eriko." It's almost required with the gender, but it makes for difficult reading. If this a close translation, I can clean it up. Unless, of course, Yoshino is actually saying Eriko so often, and this is actually part of the speech mannerism. I thought it best to reference the source material first, though.

The Japanese text only mentions "Eriko-sama" once in that passage, so it's not a mannerism thing. The actual translation doesn't seem that accurate either - I'd be more inclined to go with something like:

"When we met, Eriko-sama seemed kind of down. To cheer her up, I told her she'd be the first person I introduced my petit soeur to."

-- but this is Yoshino's current spin on things - in Volume 16, she tells Yumi about her meeting with Eriko and how she made that promise to get Eriko to shut up about her (Yoshino) not having a soeur.

BTW it looks like there's a typo in that section too ... "bit it seems I finally let it out."

Third, the very last line, and a needless note attached. 'Without hearing Yumi-san's opinion, she had been given parts of the work.' is literally one sentence talking about two objects separately. The first half references the previous action by Sachiko, and the latter talks abut Yumi getting the paper. A rewrite could go either direction, or spawn two completely new sentences.

This is another passage I would have translated differently - to me, the text is closer to:

In the end, Yumi-san wasn't asked her opinion, but she was firmly counted as a participant.

The more I look at it, the more things I'd change, so I think I'm just going to stop looking for now But feel free to keep posting if you have any more questions.

[Lunar Vitae]

Thanks for the quick reply!

The wiki doesn't seem to match the book in terms of chapter layout. ... If you're making changes in this area, could you update this too?

Absolutely. In fact, this was bothering me quite a bit, but I figured it could be dealt with later. Now that I know for sure, I'll fix it.

The second, I actually placed a "note" by in wikitext, line 118:

Spoiler! :

"I think Eriko-sama wasn't very happy when I met her. Eriko-sama told me to work hard and to show my soeur to Eriko-sama before I showed her to anyone else."

Here, there's so many "Eriko." It's almost required with the gender, but it makes for difficult reading. If this a close translation, I can clean it up. Unless, of course, Yoshino is actually saying Eriko so often, and this is actually part of the speech mannerism. I thought it best to reference the source material first, though.

The Japanese text only mentions "Eriko-sama" once in that passage, so it's not a mannerism thing. The actual translation doesn't seem that accurate either - I'd be more inclined to go with something like:

"When we met, Eriko-sama seemed kind of down. To cheer her up, I told her she'd be the first person I introduced my petit soeur to."

-- but this is Yoshino's current spin on things - in Volume 16, she tells Yumi about her meeting with Eriko and how she made that promise to get Eriko to shut up about her (Yoshino) not having a soeur.

Sounds good. I'll go with that translation and adjust as necessary.

BTW it looks like there's a typo in that section too ... "bit it seems I finally let it out."

HOW DID I MISS THAT?!

Third, the very last line, and a needless note attached. 'Without hearing Yumi-san's opinion, she had been given parts of the work.' is literally one sentence talking about two objects separately. The first half references the previous action by Sachiko, and the latter talks abut Yumi getting the paper. A rewrite could go either direction, or spawn two completely new sentences.

This is another passage I would have translated differently - to me, the text is closer to:

In the end, Yumi-san wasn't asked her opinion, but she was firmly counted as a participant.

I'll go with this.

The more I look at it, the more things I'd change, so I think I'm just going to stop looking for now But feel free to keep posting if you have any more questions.

Haha! It seems I'm not the only one who thought Volume 20 was a little rough around the edges... I think I can correct the majority of any issues now; I'm getting a much better feel for how Konno writes in perspective-narration. If I come across challenging character speech, I'll be back. Thanks again for taking the time to look at this entry and provide insight!

[Lunar Vitae]

So how do we handle the URLs for Volume 20? We can name the navigation links whatever we want, but the title at the head of each page doesn't match what the page actually is. 'Chapter 1.3' should be 2, and the remaining are now one chapter behind. I was about to move them all, starting with "Harvest," but realized that the original page would remain. The move only redirects, so the previous chapters couldn't be moved into their correct number. We could delete everything and start over, but that seems like a lot of work for other people for a clean look. Personally, I prefer doing so (you know I love my clean lines, looks, and pages), but it might be OCD of me. Then again ... it would be as simple as backing up the volume, marking each page for deletion, and re-uploading once it's done. Afterward, after the translator's notes, we can list the original, external, contributing translators and editors (since the contribution and editing history will be deleted along with the original page).

Additionally, should we make a new thread for editing? I feel like we're cluttering up this one, which is for feedback/talking about the series in general.

[Cthaeh]

The move only redirects, so the previous chapters couldn't be moved into their correct number.

If I understand correctly, you want to move C1.3 to C2, and then everything after that (C2 moved to C3, C5 moved to C6, and everything in between accordingly)?

I can take care of that if you'd like, just by moving C5->6, C4->5, and so on in order (it will overwrite the existing page, but that might require the delete user right). Alternatively I could make sure you had that user right and let you do it.

[Lunar Vitae]

Hey Cthaeh,

That's pretty much the situation. I'm sure my "bull-in-china-shop" activity on the Wiki got your attention, haha! While I would most certainly love to handle it on my own, so as not to inconvenience others, I have no idea how the inner workings of Wikimedia software behaves. Even with rights, I wouldn't know how to do it. Unless it's something I could figure out just by looking at the page itself. And the whole permission level is another thing: do I even qualify to hold it?

Just to confirm what we're talking about:
Chapter 5: "Harvest" needs to become Chapter 6, Chapter 1.3 needs to become Chapter 2, and everything in between to follow suit.

[Cthaeh]

Sure, I'll plan to do it later this weekend.

Edit: Moves done. And I believe I corrected all of the links. (Edit2: ... or not, apparently I missed at least one link.)

[Lunar Vitae]

Thank you again, Cthaeh. Don't worry about that last link, haha!

Out of curiosity, do tables in wiki code break PDFs, ePUBS, etc.? I made one to achieve proper text display/line separation, and this potential issue just occurred to me.

EDIT: I saw a different way I could manage line-breaks, so I'll replace that table with it soon.


Vol 26 Parts 4 & 5

Note 1 (Line 49): The sentence That pair's relationship was more like a boss and employee than soeurs is a little rough. Might I propose: That pair had a relationship closer to that of a boss-and-employee, rather than soeurs.

The final quote in Part 4 (Line 111), from Mami, had a termination that was technically incorrect. I know and wholly understand what was intended with the em dash, but it looks and feels out of place in written text vs. manga. On the other hand, simply using a hard stop feels awkward as well. Is there another way we could write or convey the effect of the continuing dialog between characters when ending the section?

Note 2 (Line 7): Same issue and feeling as above, except I have no idea how else to punctuate that. Actually, as I'm writing this, I just thought of something. Why don't we line-break here? Looking at the preview, it actually works, in my humble opinion.

That's it for now. Hopefully this edit will suffice, rather than making yet another post. Thanks again for your efforts, enn_are!

[Lunar Vitae]

Quoting for visibility.

Vol 26 Ch 1 Parts 4 & 5

Note 1 (Line 49): The sentence That pair's relationship was more like a boss and employee than soeurs is a little rough. Might I propose: That pair had a relationship closer to that of a boss-and-employee, rather than soeurs.

The final quote in Part 4 (Line 111), from Mami, had a termination that was technically incorrect. I know and wholly understand what was intended with the em dash, but it looks and feels out of place in written text vs. manga. On the other hand, simply using a hard stop feels awkward as well. Is there another way we could write or convey the effect of the continuing dialog between characters when ending the section?

Note 2 (Line 7): Same issue and feeling as above, except I have no idea how else to punctuate that. Actually, as I'm writing this, I just thought of something. Why don't we line-break here? Looking at the preview, it actually works, in my humble opinion.

That's it for now. Hopefully this edit will suffice, rather than making yet another post. Thanks again for your efforts, enn_are!

And now to drag you back to Volume 20!

Ch 1 Parts 1-3

Note 1 (Line 106): I struggled with how to punctuate or otherwise rewrite this, but it seems like simply removing "Of course," made all the difference. Of course, I'd still like to check with you.

Note 2 (Line 387): 'Pattern the newspaper'? You do indeed "pattern" in graphic/text design, but this particular line doesn't sound like it's using the correct verbiage in this situation.

Note 3 (Line 445): I can see this is supposed to be a questionnaire, but is it written correctly? Is the second line an answer with results, or simply a statement about selecting that answer?

Note 4 (Line 460): I can't even.

Note 5 (Line 538): I think Noriko meant to say You, not It.


As always, thank you for looking at these and take your time. I can see a number of things you would probably write differently, so in order to save you from having to do so, I have taken a small amount of liberty in rewriting a couple of things. That, and partially for readability.

I think I might talk to a senior moderator about opening a new thread for our translation and editing discussion and moving relevant posts into it.

[enn_are]

Vol 26 Parts 4 & 5

Note 1 (Line 49): The sentence That pair's relationship was more like a boss and employee than soeurs is a little rough. Might I propose: That pair had a relationship closer to that of a boss-and-employee, rather than soeurs.

That sounds fine.

The final quote in Part 4 (Line 111), from Mami, had a termination that was technically incorrect. I know and wholly understand what was intended with the em dash, but it looks and feels out of place in written text vs. manga. On the other hand, simply using a hard stop feels awkward as well. Is there another way we could write or convey the effect of the continuing dialog between characters when ending the section?

In the original, Mami's speech is cut off mid-sentence, so maybe something like:

"First of all, let's review everyone's movements against this timetable, and then -- "

Note 2 (Line 7): Same issue and feeling as above, except I have no idea how else to punctuate that. Actually, as I'm writing this, I just thought of something. Why don't we line-break here? Looking at the preview, it actually works, in my humble opinion.

I don't mind either way, but I think it's important to keep the shared assumption implicit rather than explicitly state it.

I haven't had a chance to look at your Volume 20 questions yet, I'll try and do that sometime this week.

[Lunar Vitae]

The final quote in Part 4 (Line 111), from Mami, had a termination that was technically incorrect. I know and wholly understand what was intended with the em dash, but it looks and feels out of place in written text vs. manga. On the other hand, simply using a hard stop feels awkward as well. Is there another way we could write or convey the effect of the continuing dialog between characters when ending the section?

In the original, Mami's speech is cut off mid-sentence, so maybe something like:

"First of all, let's review everyone's movements against this timetable, and then -- "

Beautiful. Done.

Note 2 (Line 7): Same issue and feeling as above, except I have no idea how else to punctuate that. Actually, as I'm writing this, I just thought of something. Why don't we line-break here? Looking at the preview, it actually works, in my humble opinion.

I don't mind either way, but I think it's important to keep the shared assumption implicit rather than explicitly state it.

I think I understand what you're saying here. Do you feel like using the line break makes this an explicit assumption? If so, I'll look at other ways of making this flow.

I haven't had a chance to look at your Volume 20 questions yet, I'll try and do that sometime this week.

No worries. Take your time on those; there's a lot more to come (hopefully not).


I had some thoughts about the project as a whole. Obviously with different translators we get different styles. You like to put character thoughts in parentheses; other's I've seen as plain text, and one in italics. As the current and most-contributing translator, would you prefer the project follow your style to preserve the sense of flow and continuity across all the volumes? I would vote yes, as it would keep things smooth for the reader. While I am not a fan of parentheses for this purpose, I am more than happy to edit the series to follow suit.

[enn_are]

And now to drag you back to Volume 20!

Ch 1 Parts 1-3

Note 1 (Line 106): I struggled with how to punctuate or otherwise rewrite this, but it seems like simply removing "Of course," made all the difference. Of course, I'd still like to check with you.

I agree - the "of course" reads poorly. The nodding is meant to indicate Yumi's understanding, but the preceding conversation isn't quite right. I would have gone with something like:

"Well, there must be - "

Yumi's follow up was interrupted by Yoshino-san's declaration.

"Someone with such bizarre tastes? They're aiming for Rei-chan."

"Rei-sama ... "

"The girl who becomes my sœur will be like a granddaughter to Rei-chan."

"I see. So they'll receive Rei-sama's affection."

Yumi nodded, understanding. etc.

Yumi's last line is still kind of awkward, but the meaning is closer.

Note 2 (Line 387): 'Pattern the newspaper'? You do indeed "pattern" in graphic/text design, but this particular line doesn't sound like it's using the correct verbiage in this situation.

Agreed - what Mami's saying is closer to:

"It wasn't Yoshino-san. I heard it from Rosa Chinensis. She told me to make a huge advertisement in the Lilian Kawaraban, and in exchange for that we were given permission to cover the audition."

Note 3 (Line 445): I can see this is supposed to be a questionnaire, but is it written correctly? Is the second line an answer with results, or simply a statement about selecting that answer?

AFAICT the options are supposed to be Yes/No/I don't know, and the "answer" is a circle around "I don't know." The formatting is pretty much how it is in the book.

Note 4 (Line 460): I can't even.

Seems fine to me But personally I would have gone with something like:

She'd probably been climbing the stairs silently, with the sudden rattling of the staircase caused by her surprise. Shimako-san turned around, with one hand still on the railing and the other clutching her chest.

Note 5 (Line 538): I think Noriko meant to say You, not It.

I think the meaning of a large part of that section is wrong. A fairly rough re-translation would be:

"So then, are you simply against the concept of the audition itself?"

"That may be the case. But if you look at it from the outside, it's just another way of finding a sœur."

"Then what about Yoshino-sama choosing her petit soeur through an audition?"

"Yoshino-san is Yoshino-san, so I wouldn't object."

She'd probably even help out if she was asked to.

"But it's different when it comes to yourself, right?"

"That's right. I wonder why that is?"

Noriko-chan and Yumi began to think deeply about the issue. Shimako-san, who had been silently listening, offered another angle.

"Perhaps, Yumi-san is opposed to the part about judging people."

"That's it."

Yumi snapped her fingers, but it didn't make a sound.

"I don't know how many worthy first-years there are who want to be my soeur, but it's a bit tough to pick one of them. I mean, what's the criteria to choose against? What is it that separates the chosen one from the others? I'm supposed to be choosing a petit soeur, so isn't it strange to run it like a knock-out competition? What's my place in all this? A judge? It feels like I'd be acting superior, looking down on them."

Right as she said that --

"Well sorry for being superior."

The door opened with a thud, and in the doorway stood Yoshino-san.

=== Part 4 ===

"Let me tell you something."

Yoshino-san angrily strode into the room.

"Acting superior - we're their future "onee-sama." Looking down on them? That's fine. Nothing wrong with that."

As always, thank you for looking at these and take your time. I can see a number of things you would probably write differently, so in order to save you from having to do so, I have taken a small amount of liberty in rewriting a couple of things. That, and partially for readability.

No problem, and thanks for all your work. I appreciate the effort you're making to improve the overall quality, especially because I would be too lazy to do it myself.

I think I might talk to a senior moderator about opening a new thread for our translation and editing discussion and moving relevant posts into it.

If you want, but there's not a lot of chatter in this thread otherwise

[enn_are]

I think I understand what you're saying here. Do you feel like using the line break makes this an explicit assumption? If so, I'll look at other ways of making this flow.

No, it's solely that I want to leave the dash rather than completing the sentence (which you weren't suggesting).

I had some thoughts about the project as a whole. Obviously with different translators we get different styles. You like to put character thoughts in parentheses; other's I've seen as plain text, and one in italics. As the current and most-contributing translator, would you prefer the project follow your style to preserve the sense of flow and continuity across all the volumes? I would vote yes, as it would keep things smooth for the reader. While I am not a fan of parentheses for this purpose, I am more than happy to edit the series to follow suit.

I'm going to be biased towards what I'm already doing, because that's easiest for me

It's been a while, but when I first started I tried to be consistent with the conventions used by the original translator in the first few volumes of the series, and my use of parentheses probably comes from there. It's also a carry-over from the Japanese text, because that's how the thoughts are written there - so they do need to stand out from the regular text and from speech in some fashion.

The only objection I have to italics for thoughts is that I've (semi-recently, so probably not in all volumes) been using italics with telephone conversations to denote the remote party, because otherwise it can get kind of confusing when it shouldn't be - the Japanese text uses different quotation marks, so there's never any intended confusion.

Either way, if you want to make things consistent across the series, then I would definitely recommend using what I'm doing as the baseline, just because it is the majority of the translated works.