Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2

2006-05-08T03:56:31Z

12.205.36.4: /* The Fall of Hyperion */

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Moe ===

While its exact definition could be debated on (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29 Wikipedia's entry]), "Turn-on Factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. Which direction you get 'turned on' can be varied: strong desire to protect and cuddle, "I so want to go out with him/her", fuzzy warmth at Omega cuteness - these are some possibilities all of which could fall under "Moe".

=== The Fall of Hyperion ===
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

: That is a reasonable edit in my book. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 22:57, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

Eleutheria 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

I've read the entire series, both the two "Hyperion" stories, and the two "Endymion" sequelae. It's excellent, though the coherence of the story wavers a bit near the end. I believe that I'm not the only one of the "regulars" who has read it all.

Then again, I've read a ''lot'' of science fiction over the years.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 12:43, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I read the Fall of Hyperion today. Took me from lunch to 8 pm, since I wanted to soak in all of it. Rachel's exact timeline took some puzzling.

I'm now convinced that Nagato Yuki doesn't really read. Those thick books are for show. If she had got anything out of the Fall of Hyperion, she wouldn't still be so emotionless. She'd have realized the truth behind the Void Which Binds.

---[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:14, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Maybe. I think she probably reads them but doesn't really take in the deeper meaning of them.

It's a great series, though. I read it by chance in high school. Just picked it up because it looked interesting.

-- kumarei 23:55, 7 May 2006

=== Doraemon ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doraemon Doraemon] is probably the most famous robotic cat in Japanese culture. And it does smile a lot, apparently.

From Wikipedia:
<cite>
:Doraemon possesses a four-dimensional pocket from which he can produce all manner of futuristic tools, gadgets and playthings from a future department store.
</cite>

This dovetails nicely with the image of Haruhi smiling as she pulls something devious out of her bag.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 17:23, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:Ooh, good spot yeah - forgot to write that down after the Reference system was implemented. And yes, Doraemon does smile a lot - with a big big mouth expression.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

== Current Translation Debates ==

==== I know it isn't right to criticize, but these two sure have a lot of free time on their hands! ====
I wonder if this might be better (or more idiomatically) phrased:

<cite>
:I know '''I'm not one''' to criticize...
</cite>

This has almost the same meaning, but I don't know if it's faithful enough to the original text. Any translator care to comment?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 00:47, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:That's a messy part of the English language, when non-grammatical things acquire meaning through usage.
:Literally,
:EX.1a
:<cite>
::I'm not one to criticize
:</cite>
:means
:EX.1b
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[of those people who you would normally expect]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:but in usage, it's come to also mean
:EX.1c
:<cite>
::I'm in no position to criticize.
:</cite>
:''(actually, the "correct" term is "I shouldn't be one to criticize", but correctness is for the British.)''
:Usage aside, though, the meaning you're going for is what makes the most sense in context.

:Actually, which of those two meanings did you mean? I had EX.1c in mind. ''(As I'm not a translator, I can only comment on the English/logical side of things.)''

:Great, now I'm confused. The way I see it, Kyon's wasting time in the clubroom too, so he's in no position to say that they have too much time on their hands. Which is the only meaning of the sentence that's in character. I mean, come on -- has he ever been afraid of letting loose with snarky comments before? When has he ever felt guilty about criticizing people?

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:12, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Aren't idiom's fun? EX.1c is what I would say the idiom "I'm not one to criticize" means, and it seems very appropriate for the situation (Kyon has a lot of free time on his hands too). I think I'll go ahead and make the change, but if any translators think the idiom says too much more than the original Japanese, we can put it back.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 16:01, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:It was kind of sitting in the back of my head, and suddenly I realized that both interpretations of the term make sense grammatically. EX.1d (e.g. EX.1b) is the only one I've seen in stuffy academic works, but then again, academics use much more elaborate means of undermining the credibility of others.
:EX.1d
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[who is inclined]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:EX.1e
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[who is qualified]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:So maybe English isn't as messy as I thought it was. Still, there's always "I could care less" (''should be "I couldn't"'') -- that one definitely bugs me.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:02, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

==== The SOS Brigade ====

This topic should be discussed at: [[Talk:Format guideline#SOS-Dan.27s_full_name]]

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:30, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Translation Discussions ==

==== "...... If I could never marry because of this, would you still marry me......?" ====

「・・・私がお嫁にいけなくなるようなことになったら、貰ってくれますか・・・？」

According to the [http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showtopic=1711607&st=625# detail analysis] of the original Japanese novel in MegaTokyo, the correct phase should be ''"Should something happen to me (that would keep me from marrying someone under a normal circumstance), will you marry me?"''

Blah I wish people(aka readers) would correct it when they notice a major mistake.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:00, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, quite literally, Asahina is saying:

"If something should happen so I cannot become a bride, will you take me?"

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:29, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

So...change it? (It's 3 o'clock am here and my brain is on auto mode. You decide.)

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Done. Oh, and it's just past noon here -- I'm on Central European Time (GMT+1).

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Layout and Style questions. ==

I'm trimming down a really big gap between the lines:

<cite>
:Very soon, I would find out.
</cite>
and
<cite>
:And that is to make an SOS Brigade website!
</cite>

It had been 10 blank lines. I'm about to reduce it to 5 like all of the section breaks, but I wanted to make a note of the change there was some reason for the extra big break at that location.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-07T14:16:35Z

12.205.36.4: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he already was talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

''I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."''

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)