Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

User:Da~Mike

2006-10-24T15:26:12Z

Da~Mike:

'''Things being as they are, I am now the editor who is probably labelled as MIA. University (the work and the life) has kept me insanely busy for the past four weeks so I've had scarcely any time to myself (if you don't consider the time I conk out by the end of the day or the beginning even). Not only that, I still don't have access to the Internet in my new flat this year but I should get it by the weekend or the week after. Since there is no definite in life, I'll just say this: "I ''should'' be back."'''

I'm the self-proclaimed "Infrequent Editor".

Well, I guess you could say I'm more of a pedantic nit-picker when it comes to translations and interpretations of any other language into English.

'''I will generally abstain from editing any of the translated text''' but instead, I will mention any errors, inconsistencies or issues in each respective discussion page and offer my suggestions. This should minimise stylistic conflicts between editors and in the resulting translations.

In terms of experience with translating and editing, although I have not formally worked on any online project prior to this, I have had more than a few experiences of being a language exchange partner, often with Chinese and Japanese foreigners who were not conversant in English. As a language exchange partner, I often helped them rewrite and re-structure their work and assignments (even with their grammar when writing emails and text messages).
Having spent part of my gap year in China to learn Mandarin Chinese, I have a fairly strong grasp of the language. I have also passively learnt Japanese for several years, though my understanding of Japanese is not as strong. Despite French being my formal second language, I am hardly literate in French...

Native language: English

Learning: Japanese, Mandarin Chinese

N.B. I'm British so my suggestions will tend to revolve around translating or editing with respect to Standard British English. I have however, taken into account that the mode of English used in the translations will be American English. Hence, I shall try not to mention any discrepancies of that sort.

'''I am currently in the process of cleaning-up the Wiki discussion boards and transferring them to the forum. I intend to transfer the discussions exactly as they appeared in the Wiki in order to preserve each individual's writing style and their methods of highlighting key points.'''

'''Volume one has been cleaned.'''
'''Format/Stlye guideline talk page has been cleaned.'''

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter3

2006-09-06T20:32:13Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 03 - Part 1.0 signing */

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter3

2006-09-06T20:30:28Z

Da~Mike: /* Pg 70 */

===Pg 70===

(1) 'His nickname is "Colbert of Flame Snake". He is a mage who specializes in magics from the "Fire" system.' -> 'His nickname is "Colbert the Flame Snake". He is a mage who specializes in the elemental magic of "Fire".'
[I changed his 'rune name" accordingly based on how "Zero no Louise" becomes "Louise the Zero". I also re-worded the second sentence, though it may be less accurate now.]

(2) 'Colbert has been concerned about the commoner young man who was called out by Louise during the "Spring Familiar Summoning" a few days ago.' -> 'Colbert has been concerned about the young male commoner who was summoned by Louise during the...'
[I didn't like the sound of"commoner young man" so I replaced it with something that sounds a little more fluid.]

(3) 'So, he has closed himself off inside the library ever since last night, looking through books.' -> '..., poring through books.'
["Looking through books" seemed a bit too casual compared to "poring through books"]

(4) 'And it should be so too, because stuffed inside this library is the history of everything ever since Founder Brimir first built a new world in Halkeginia.' -> 'And it should be, because packed inside this library is the history of everything since Founder Brimir first built a new world in Halkeginia.'
[This sentence seemed a little erroneous to me. I believe my changes alleviated it a little but I think it still needs re-working.]

(5) [The inconsistency with tenses is somewhat frustrating to me... I'll let the rest of you sort this problem out.]

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 6 September 2006 (GMT)

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter3

2006-09-06T20:28:52Z

Da~Mike: changelog

===Pg 70===

(1) 'His nickname is "Colbert of Flame Snake". He is a mage who specializes in magics from the "Fire" system.' -> 'His nickname is "Colbert the Flame Snake". He is a mage who specializes in the elemental magic of "Fire".'
[I changed his 'rune name" accordingly based on how "Zero no Louise" becomes "Louise the Zero". I also re-worded the second sentence, though it may be less accurate now.]

(2) 'Colbert has been concerned about the commoner young man who was called out by Louise during the "Spring Familiar Summoning" a few days ago.' -> 'Colbert has been concerned about the young male commoner who was summoned by Louise during the...'
[I didn't like the sound of"commoner young man" so I replaced it with something that sounds a little more fluid.]

(3) 'So, he has closed himself off inside the library ever since last night, looking through books.' -> '..., poring through books.'
["Looking through books" seemed a bit too casual compared to "poring through books"]

(4) 'And it should be so too, because stuffed inside this library is the history of everything ever since Founder Brimir first built a new world in Halkeginia.' -> 'And it should be, because packed inside this library is the history of everything since Founder Brimir first built a new world in Halkeginia.'
[This sentence was a little convoluted. I believe my changes alleviated it a little but I think it still needs re-working.]

(5) [The inconsistency with tenses is somewhat frustrating to me... I'll let the rest of you sort this problem out.]

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 6 September 2006 (GMT)

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter3

2006-09-06T20:25:19Z

Da~Mike: /* '''P.70''' */ minor edits. see discusion page for change log

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter3

2006-09-06T17:38:00Z

Da~Mike: subsectioned for convenience

Format guideline

2006-09-04T18:17:53Z

Da~Mike: minor restructuring

This page came about to lay down some foundation Guidelines to assist Editors & Translators alike to create a consistent reading format though out all the novels, to ensure the best Haruhi experience.

This page will be updated to include all terms, formats notes and other points for this project, it should always reflect the joint agreements of all parties.

This does not mean the Translators will have to take it upon themselves to apply the guidelines. This guide will mainly affect Editors, and we stress to Translators not to take it upon themselves to change their habits or preferences that will hamper your progress.

In short let the Editors do all the hard work, while you lot can continue to concentrate on the Translating (^-^)/

But as this implies this is not a Rule. It is a Guide, and you will not be punished for not agreeing to it, but at the same time know that any edits which will not comform to this guide will be corrected by other Users.

I strongly advise that if you really do have an issue with some of these accepted points, that you please add your voice to the Discussion on the Talk page, before you edit.

----

== '''Suzumiya Haruhi Series Format Guidelines''' ==

This page is a style guide for Suzumiya Haruhi Project. The consensus of many Editors & Translators formed the conventions described here. Translated Chapters should heed these rules. Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes.

== '''Translators''' ==

*Work will be divided by Chapters per Volume

*You are required to register which Chapters you wish to work on

*Registration is on a "First Come, First Served" please register your intended chapters on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration Page]

*The maximum number of chapters you are recommended to work on is no more then half of any given volume

*Maximum number of Translators per volume is two
**'''There is a proposal to change this Guideline see '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=299 Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume]'''

*Maximum number of volumes you may be active on is one

*Do not worry about first drafts, it will be the Editors job to clean it up. Discussion between Editors and Translators are advised.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:51, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*The Registration page is not some Binding Contract of "I must do the work I put down here". Choices put down here are negotiable between translators (including their own selves who signed up for it).

[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:01, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform [[User:Thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] and the designated Project Translator of the intend Chapters as shown on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration page] before any major contribution

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:33, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*In the event that another Translator wish to work on a Chapter that has already been registered, provided that s/he has translated the entire Chapter before hand, they may publish the script, but must mark it for all so that it is a "preview" which can be taken down without prior warning.

*Registered Translator of chapters which has "Preview" scripts has the right to take down or keep the script as see fit, when they are ready to work on that chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:18, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

== '''Editors''' ==

*Editors are required to justify in the related chapter Talk page for Major Edits. Which could be considered disputable

*Always fill in the summary box on all non-minor edits

*Editors are advised to communicate with Translators for any Major Edits

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:32, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Anonymous Editors ====

*Anonymous Editors are Welcome, but please note that any large edits, which are considered further then grammar and spelling corrections, must be justified in the Discussion page before hand.

*Anonymous Editors be aware that your edits will be reverted if you have not complied to the above points, this is to prevent perceived vandalism.

*Registration is free, and we strongly advised that you do, in order to acknowledge worthy contributions

*Always fill in the summary box after all edits, one word is better then nothing.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Dialogue and Narration Syntax Section ==

*No parenthesis (a.k.a. inverted commas/double quotation marks) for when Kyon's "inner dialogue leaks out"

*No-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line

*Use original tenses for Kyon's narration. For cases where this seems awkward, apply the following rule of thumb:
:Prologue and Vol 1 Ch 1 are Kyon's Backstory telling, therefore should default to Past Tense. Ch 2+ are Kyon living out his experiences, so default to Present Tense (and secondarily to Immediate Past Tense).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 15:46, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities. In Chinese, as the grammatical structure is similar, the punctuations are carried over. However, in English, Kyon's sarcastic and witty remarks actually works better ending with a fullstop than with an exclamation mark, since sarcasm in English is very subtle, the reader can sense it even without the exclamation mark.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 14.20, 24 April 2006 (BST)

*Please use past tense for all of Kyon's narration as with most of what I've read. This is the case for the latter chapters of volume one. The translators seem to use present tense for Kyon's constant tsukkomi (commentary), which is great. Perhaps the error that I correct the most is tense agreement within the same paragraph or sentence.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 04:17, 27 April 2006 (EST)

In my opinion, proper sarcasm does not always need to be accentuated by adding exclamation marks, which normally connotes heightened emotions, be it surprise, happiness, anger .etc
Basically, sarcasm is intended to be a witty ridicule which, more often than not, is fairly subtle.

e.g. "I watched Amy perform at the concert the other day." I mentioned.
"Oh really? I heard she wants to become a professional singer one day. How was her singing?" Mavis queried.
"Oh she does, does she? In which case, I shall remember to wish her all the best the next time I see her." I smiled.

Thus, not all of Kyon's sarcastic remarks or thoughts should have exclamations added to them but should be worded in a similarly sarcastic fashion, without adapting the meaning of the original text as much as possible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:00, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Correct English Terms ==

In this section we list the agreed English terms for specificly important words.

* '''Due to the nature of this website, and the nationality of the majority of Editors & Readers the standard spelling lexicon for this project will be based upon American English as defined by the Fourth Edition of the [http://www.bartleby.com/61/ American Heritage Dictionary]'''

*Those who are fluent in Native English who find difficulty in use of correct American English Spelling can find help with the online [http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/ American-British & British-American Dictionaries] (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:32, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

*Yuki's Alien Group

Integrated Data Sentient Entity/Information Synthesis Thought Entities

*Itsuki's Supernatural Group
"Kikan", "機関" = "Organization"

Note: It has been conjectured by that the name of Itsuki's group is a reference by the author to the "Instrumentality of Man" in the science fiction classics by Cordwainer Smith.

* "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

* "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

* "Aliens, Time Travellers, Sliders and Espers" as opposed to say "futurian" or "out-of-worlder"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:26, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

* "Classified information" rather than "No comment" for information Asahina is unable to tell

*Haruhi's Mental Manifestation
"Shinjins"= "Avatars"

Note: Literally meaning "God like Being", Shinjins reflect Haruhi's mental condition; it can be likened to the "Angels" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion", whose mental boundaries are physical, unlike humans who keep mental conflicts within their organic minds. Haruhi's mental state manifests within an alternative "Sealed Reality" on earth to vent her cognitive dissonance.

*Name of the alternative reality Haruhi's mental state appears
"Heisa Kuukan"= "Sealed Reality"

Note: This is where the "Avatar" of Haruhi manifests itself to vent her cognitive dissonance. It is literally a parallel reality effectively locked within a region on earth. While physical landmarks such as buildings, streetlights, and roads are present and are frequently attacked by Haruhi's "Avatar" in this alternate reality, no humans are ever present. This environment is colored in a uniform shade of grey, and only members of the "Organization" can enter this "Sealed Reality".

*Name of the School Club

"SOS DAN", "SOS団" = "SOS Brigade"

"Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan", "世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼宮ハルヒの団"= "Save our world by Overloading it with fun: Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade"

Note: The literal translation of the full name of the club is: "Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly".
[''The above requires additional info & clarification'']

==Common Japanese Terms==

The following terms will be considered well known enough to be used raw (without translation) - they'll be linked to a "Translator's Notes/Reference" section (to be discussed).

'''-san, -senpai, etc'''

:Japanese Honorifics are well known (note the spelling of "-se'''n'''pai" - not "-se'''m'''pai") though of course we should mention them in a Reference section in case someone happens to be unfamiliar.

'''Moe'''

:While its exact definition could be debated on, "turn-on factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. It sounds a bit clunky in regular conversation though, so we'll use "Moe" in the text and link to another Translation Note explaining it.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:03, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

**'''Translator Notes:'''

Se''m''pai is not necessarily wrong. I remember in my Japanese-classes that sometimes the ''n'' sound becomes an ''m'' before certain sounds. Examples like te''m''pura, shi''m''bun. When written, it is spelled with an ''n'', since the written ''m'' doesn't exist in Japanese, but it's pronounced with a ''m'' sound. An English analogy would be Leicester, prounounced as "Lester" and not "Ley-ces-ter", Warwick pronounced as "War-rick" and not "War-wick".

As for why I used "turn-on factor", as not everyone who reads the translation is familiar with otaku terminology, and I don't want to leave them out of it.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 00:11, 29 April 2006 (HKT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-09-04T18:04:18Z

Da~Mike:

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Nanpa ===

The practice of standing in the street and picking up girls, mostly common with younger people (high school and early college age). Men who do this all the time are called by the same term, and are sometimes considered somewhat weird.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:38, 8 May 2006 (EST)

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=280 Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise"]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=279 Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=278 General Translation Issues]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter6

2006-09-04T18:02:50Z

Da~Mike:

== Open Translation Issues ==

This previous discussion has been moved to the forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=274 ESP hair]'''

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=271 ESP?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=270 General Translation Issues]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=272 Snow White?]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter6

2006-09-04T18:02:45Z

Da~Mike:

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-09-04T18:00:49Z

Da~Mike:

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Open Translation Issues ==

This previous discussion has been moved to the forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33 Syntax Error in Sql Statement XD]'''

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=251 "Consortium" -> ?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=254 General Translation Issues]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=253 Haruhi's Self-Introduction]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=252 The ecchi moment with Nagato Yuk]'''

== English Grammar Corrections ==

This contribution has been moved to forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=249 Grammar Corrections]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter3

2006-09-04T17:59:07Z

Da~Mike:

== References & Translator's Notes ==

There are no official English technical terms in the novel. Therefore we try to translate those phases figuratively.

===Integrated Data Sentient Entity===

On one of the official SH wallpaper, the term is translated as ''information integration thought body''.

===Living Humanoid Interface===

Same as above, the official SH wallpaper coined Yuki as ''Humanoid Interface''.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:40, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== ''toshigoro no shoujo'' and ''toshigoro no shounen'' ===

Below is the abridged version of the actual discussion. Please click on the following link to view the original discussion: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=238 ....meanwhile, she returned, placing the cup of warm tea on the table like a doll and sat opposite me.]'''

In the original Japanese version, it is:

<cite>
:年頃の少女が年頃の少年を家人のいない家に連れ込む理由を頭の中に巡らせていると、長門が盆に急須と湯飲みを載せてカラクリ人形のような動きでテーブルに置き、制服のまま俺の向かいにちょこんと座った。
</cite>

<cite>
:''Toshigoro no shoujo ga toshigoro no shounen o kajin no inai ie ni tsurekomu riyuu o atama no naka ni megurasete iru to, Nagato ga bon ni kyuusu to yunomi o nosete karakuri ningyou no you na ugoki de teeburu ni oki, seifuku no mama ore no mukai ni chokon to suwatta.''
</cite>

I make it out to be:

<cite>
:The reasons a girl might have to invite a boy home while her parents were away from the house were going through my head, when Nagato, moving like a mechanical puppet, placed a tray with a small teapot and teacups on the table and sat down demurely in her school uniform, across from me.
</cite>

Of course, the original text does say ''toshigoro no shoujo'' and ''toshigoro no shounen'', that is: it places emphasis on their being "of marriageable years" -- implying that he's thinking she might have invited him for sex. Therefore, it wouldn't be unreasonable to translate this as "young woman" and "young man" instead of "girl" and "boy". However, I think this way works best. I won't quibble if anyone chooses to edit it to be the other way.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 06:44, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Issues ==

This previous discussion has been moved to the forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=237 Asahina shook her head like a sea wave, and then stared glary-eyed at the transfer student.]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2

2006-09-04T17:03:59Z

Da~Mike: restructured

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Douzo? ===

Just a little edit added between Kyon and Yuki's first conversation. I felt like Yuki saying 'Be my guest' sounded a little too eager for her when being told she might be evicted. From what i remember of the anime she said 'douzo' at this point. I figured 'feel free to do so' would fit better, but opted 'please feel free' though it isn't accurate of 'douzo'.

(Is something this minor worth a note in the discussion? I wasn't entirely sure if I should have just changed it or not.)

=== Moe ===

While its exact definition could be debated on (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29 Wikipedia's entry]), "Turn-on Factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. Which direction you get 'turned on' can be varied: strong desire to protect and cuddle, "I so want to go out with him/her", fuzzy warmth at Omega cuteness - these are some possibilities all of which could fall under "Moe".

=== The Fall of Hyperion ===

About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

: That is a reasonable edit in my book. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 22:57, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

Eleutheria 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

I've read the entire series, both the two "Hyperion" stories, and the two "Endymion" sequelae. It's excellent, though the coherence of the story wavers a bit near the end. I believe that I'm not the only one of the "regulars" who has read it all.

Then again, I've read a ''lot'' of science fiction over the years.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 12:43, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I read the Fall of Hyperion today. Took me from lunch to 8 pm, since I wanted to soak in all of it. Rachel's exact timeline took some puzzling.

I'm now convinced that Nagato Yuki doesn't really read. Those thick books are for show. If she had got anything out of the Fall of Hyperion, she wouldn't still be so emotionless. She'd have realized the truth behind the Void Which Binds.

---[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:14, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Maybe. I think she probably reads them but doesn't really take in the deeper meaning of them.

It's a great series, though. I read it by chance in high school. Just picked it up because it looked interesting.

-- [[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 23:55, 7 May 2006

=== Doraemon ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doraemon Doraemon] is probably the most famous robotic cat in Japanese culture. And it does smile a lot, apparently.

From Wikipedia:
<cite>
:Doraemon possesses a four-dimensional pocket from which he can produce all manner of futuristic tools, gadgets and playthings from a future department store.
</cite>

This dovetails nicely with the image of Haruhi smiling as she pulls something devious out of her bag.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 17:23, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:Ooh, good spot yeah - forgot to write that down after the Reference system was implemented. And yes, Doraemon does smile a lot - with a big big mouth expression.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

== Open Translation Issues ==

This previous discussion has been moved to the forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=234 Requirements for organizing an "association"]'''

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=236 I know it isn't right to criticize, but these two sure have a lot of free time on their hands!]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=235 "...... If I could never marry because of this, would you still marry me......?"]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-09-04T17:02:13Z

Da~Mike: restructured

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Cookie tin ===

They drew their new seat positions from a ハトサブレの缶 (Hatosabure no KAN).

Kamakura is famous for a biscuit called Hatosabure (鳩サブレー), a biscuit shaped like a pigeon. Sold next to Kamakura station and a very popular omiyage (souvenir) among the Japanese.

Toshimaya is a shop that sells many kinds of sweets. "Hato" (鳩) means dove in English and "sabure" (サブレ) is "sable" in French. Children loved the many white pigeons in Kamakura, so the owner of Toshimaya named the cookie "hatosabure."

Info from:
[http://wikitravel.org/en/Kamakura WikiTravel]
[http://ryokotsuzuki.tripod.com/ryoko.html Ryoko's Homepage]
[http://images.google.com.ph/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=hatosabure&sa=N&tab=wi Images]

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:44, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

== Open Translation Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=210 Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=211 But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=216 Nitpick over instant versus period of time]'''

=== Differences with the stratos translation ===

Note that most of the comments mentioned in a [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Prologue#Differences_with_the_stratos_translation|similar treatment]] of the prologue apply here.

'''format:'''

:The unindented line is the current translation.
::The following indented line is stratos' translation.
::(Any following line in parentheses is a comment on the difference between the two.)

'''differences:'''

:And so, I entered the senior high school in my area.
::Before I knew it, my days of dillydallying were over, and I had safely landed myself in a prefectural high school in my district.
::(no mention of carefree days being over in first.)

:At first, I regretted this decision as my new school sat on top of a very high hill.
::My first regret was that this school was situated atop a sizable hill.
::("At first" indicates that he came to not regret it later. That doesn't make sense in context, as there's no mitigating circumstance mentioned that would change his stance.)

:as all of you know, you sleep best right before it's time to get up.
::Then again, once you consider just how precious those last ten minutes of sleep are, ...

:the time-wasting entrance ceremony.
::while the school commencement ceremony was held in the gratuitously large gymnasium,
::(no mention of gymnasium in first. no mention of time-wasting in the second)

:Thus, I didn't look as worried (or excited) as other people.
::so I wasn’t too concerned about the trials of making friends.
::("trials of making friends" makes things clearer.)

:along with my not-so-willing new classmates, entered the 1-5 classroom.
::my classmates whose faces I would be seeing for the next year, whether I liked it or not.
::(The classmates being not-so-willing doesn't make sense, considering they had the "hopeful, yet filled with uncertainty" look just the paragraph before.)

:Our homeroom teacher, Okabe-sensei
::For homeroom, we have Okabe, a young teacher

:and having apparently ran out of things to say after that long winding speech, he said,
::Just when I thought that he would never finish, he suddenly blurted out:

:One by one, the people on the left side of the class started to introduce themselves.
::Starting from the left side of the seating chart alternating boy-girl-boy-girl, one by one, people stood up and said their name ...
::(boy-girl alternation not mentioned. Also, "starting from the left side" slightly clearer than "people on the left side")

:Some people mumbled their way through it, a few had some pretty interesting introductions, ...
::Some just mumbled their way through it. Some sounded completely relaxed about it.

:while some tried to tell lame jokes that lowered the room's temperature by a substantial degree.
::Some told lame jokes to ease the tension in the room.

:I'm starting to get nervous! Everyone should understand how I'm feeling right now, right?
:: Nerve-wracking. You know what I mean, right?
::(kind of embarrassing, because I did that edit, but the other version is better. It's hard when you don't know how much you can change without twisting the original meaning, though. Possible change: "I started getting nervous. You know the feeling, right?")

:Her small lips were tightly pursed.
::her soft pink lips tightly pursed.

:This was my first impression of this girl.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:Was she trying to be dramatic?
::Is this some kind of a joke?

:This is based on hindsight—it can't be wrong.
::I learned this the hard way later on so there's no doubt about it.

:How unforgettable.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:"...No."
:"If you are not, then what do you want?"
::"...no, but."
::"No, but what?"
::(first conversation seems like Kyon's a little more assertive. second makes him seem apologetic. Of course, his "sorry" in the next paragraph is pretty apologetic. This is a subtle point, anyway.)

:removed her glare from me disdainfully
::stopped staring at me the way one would stare at brussel sprouts

:But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking scowling-mouthed Haruhi.
::However, this didn't mean there weren't any other people in this class who hadn’t grasped the situation or were just plain blind to their surroundings.

:You should watch an episode. Oh, but it'll be hard to pick up halfway in.
::You should try it. Even if you started in the middle you wouldn't be lost.

:We started to talk about Haruhi.
::That's when the subject of Haruhi Suzumiya came up.
::(subtle thing. first sentence implies that they gathered and immediately started to talk about her. second states that it came up in conversation.)

:"That's right!"
::You got that right.
::(first is a little bit "wow, someone who understands me!" second implies Kyon's typical sarcasm.)

:If that girl was interested in you, she wouldn't say weird stuff like that.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:Taniguchi piped in:
::Taniguchi was still talking.
::(In these novels at least, if not in the Japanese language, all dialog indications are for the preceding dialog, not the following, as in normal English usage. The colon makes it seem like Taniguchi didn't say the preceding words as well.)

:"Where did you learn all this gossip?"
::"Are there any stories about that?"

:!! not present in this translation.!!
::Then don't agree to go out in the first place.
::(That last sentence gives a strong indication that Taniguchi has some personal feelings about this behavior.)

:Taniguchi put his empty lunch-box back into his bag, and let out a sinister giggle.
::Taniguchi put his empty lunch box into his bag and smirked.
::(sinister giggle, more villainous. smirking, more know-it-all.)

:It was as if she had fallen from the sky and had been born with extreme attraction in mind!
::She definitely has enough charisma to attract the masses.

:by Friday, she would have four ribbon-tied ponytails on her head. Her actions were really enigmatic!
::And on Friday, she would have four random spots tied off by ribbons, quite an odd sight.
::(actions described as enigmatic, vs just the 4-tail hairstyle described as odd.)

:Her explanation was: "It is annoying for me to do the same club activity everyday."
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:!! not present in this translation.!!
::a grin plastered on his face.

:"You don't look like that kind of person."
::"How is that any better?"

:started to call me Kyon.
::started calling me "Kyon-kun."
::(pretty minor, but something to note, since this volume was translated from Chinese, and the exact honorifics would have been lost.)

:Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, some of the dullest topics in the world.
::This could be considered some of the most trivial information ever along with telling people about your dreams or bragging about some pet.
::(in order to get both sentences to mean the same thing, you'd have to do something like: "Frankly, topics like that -- what dreams ..." in order to more clearly state the fact that he thinks Taniguchi's rambling is one of those kinds of topics.)

:"Hmm... for a while."
:"Really?"
::"Hmm... Just recently."
::"I see."
::("Really?" sounds enthusiastic, which doesn't connect with her attitude in the next paragraph. "Really." would be better.)

:"At least that's what I think, because you look and feel different to me everyday." (Kyon)
::"I think that each day of the week gives off a different image." (Haruhi)
::(So who was it that spoke that line? It's clear that they have similar source material, but they were interpreted differently.)

:I just sat there uncomfortably and let time slip by.
::This lasted long enough for me to start feeling quite uneasy.

:In the end it's the same as mandatory education. Nothing changes at all.
::this is no different from back during compulsory education.
::(stratos is slightly more clear, though I would add a note that in Japan, only up to junior high school, is education compulsory, and high school is optional -- I didn't know that myself until about a week ago.)

:"Shut up. If I like a club, then it's unique; otherwise it's plain."
::"Any club I like is weird. Everything else is normal. Isn't that obvious?"

:It's not something important anyway. (Kyon)
::"Probably something worthless, right?" (Haruhi)
::(again, who said this line? it does make more sense for Haruhi to say it, though.)

:Total dismissal seems to be her motto.
::It appears she has a habit of using the word "totally."

:Every single one of them was a moron
::Every single one of them was ridiculously square.
::(both are derogatory, but in different senses. "square" or something like makes more sense in context.)

:"Hmm, you are right. I would ask the girl out and tell her directly."
:"Who the hell cares about you!"
:What the, did I say something wrong again?
::"Well... you think so? I'd probably call her out somewhere and tell her."
::"That's not important!"
::So is it or isn't it?
::(In the current wiki translation, she's attacking Kyon's opinion as being unimportant. In the stratos translation, she's saying that what she was complaining about isn't important.)

:"Because humans are no fun at all!"
::"Isn't that more fun!?" (to be with non-humans.)

:They wouldn't just appear right in front of us humble citizens and say ...
::there's no way someone would walk up to me and introduce himself like ...
::(Plural/singular and global/personal difference.)

:"I apologize for being late. Eh... Then let's begin!"
:He repeated again, and the class atmosphere finally reverted to normal
::"Sorry I'm late. Ah... Homeroom's starting."
::And with that iteration of his opening remarks, we returned to our daily mundane routine.
::(For stratos, the first "Homeroom's starting" is the repetition. The current translation makes it seem like he repeated yet again, making it 3 times. Also, in the wiki translation, His two lines about homeroom are not the same, hence, no repetition. In the stratos translation, "homeroom's starting" is said twice.)

:Taniguchi, with his mystified face
::Taniguchi came over with a moody expression plastered on his face.

:"How very shocking!"
:Taniguchi sarcastically put on an in-awe expression
::"It's the end of the world."
::Taniguchi had this overly exaggerated look of shock on this face.

:"... why Suzumiya would talk to you? I don't get it at all."
::"... how did Suzumiya have an actual conversation with Kyon. I can't accept it."
::("can't accept" indicates not wanting to believe. "don't get it" indicates not being able to.)

:my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.
::dampen my mood another two intervals.
::(seems a little too different to not be simply a difference between the Japanese and Chinese versions.)

:Guess who took the last seat right behind me? That's right. It's the ever scowling Haruhi!
::how did this happen, Haruhi Suzumiya sat behind me looking like she was enduring a cavity.

:"Stop saying that kind of scary stuff!"
::"That's some hazardous stuff."

:trying to go into the Major League but then you discover that the school you're attending doesn't even have a baseball team."
::planning on making it to the national championship only to discover that this high school doesn't have a baseball team."
::(wiki translation: "train in a baseball team in order to get good enough to get into the major leagues." stratos translation: "join baseball team with a dream to make it to the nationals" -- this makes more sense to me, even though both are logical.
::
::But Haruhi isn't really a "want to be" type of person, so much as a "want to win" type of person. So she'd be more likely to say the championship line. To match the stratos translation, you'd have to do something like "trying to get to the World Series", or you could use as stratos does, the generic "national championship.")

:Haruhi looked as if she were some sort of banshee ready to go to a hundred Buddhist monasteries to lay some curses. She stared at the sky with disdain and let out a huge sigh.
::Haruhi glared at the sky with crocodile eyes like those of an enchantress who has prepared to commence the ritual of a hundred prayers and sighed like the north wind.

:Haruhi just cut off my rather excellent speech, or at least that's what I think, and turned her head the other direction.
::Haruhi cut me off just as I was getting into a groove and looked away.

:This girl probably doesn't care about anything— unless it involves supernatural powers that far surpasses reality.
::This girl probably doesn't care what it is. As long as it's a phenomenon that defies the tedium of reality.

:I am normal, right?
::Least that's what I thought.
::A normal response, right?

:Tears came out of my eyes instantly.
::I could see tears of time in my eyes.
::(the wiki translation makes more sense. perhaps the stratos translation was a bit too literal?)

:My head suddenly hurt and I don't think it had anything to do with my head hitting the desk a moment ago.
::It appears that the banging into the desk wasn't the only thing making my head hurt.
::(wiki translation states that head hitting desk wasn't reason for head pain. stratos translation states that it wasn't the ONLY reason. point to stratos.)

:For now I just want you to consider where we are, THEN you can share your joy with me.
::Depending on the circumstances, I may even share your joy.

:the numbing back of my head
::my ringing head
::(back of head going numb vs head ringing from impact. Interesting to note that both Cruzz and stratos ended up using the same word. Can't be entirely sure it was independent, of course.)
--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 23:02, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42 ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor...]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=231 At the end I got the second to last seat of the court-facing windowside column.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=230 For a guy at least.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=225 He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=227 I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220 I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=221 It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=214 "Kyon, we are good friends right...?"]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209 ...May Arrives...]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=226 My grandma was the one who first called me that.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=218 "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all."]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=229 People with average grades]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=232 ...released the 50-ton bomb]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=215 Reordering of a couple lines in chapter 1]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=213 She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=219 She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=217 Suzumiya Haruhi's language]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=228 Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=212 the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=222 What is that girl trying to pull?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47 What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever!]'''

== Grammar Corrections ==

This contribution has been moved to forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233 Grammar Corrections]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-09-04T16:47:08Z

Da~Mike:

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Cookie tin ===

They drew their new seat positions from a ハトサブレの缶 (Hatosabure no KAN).

Kamakura is famous for a biscuit called Hatosabure (鳩サブレー), a biscuit shaped like a pigeon. Sold next to Kamakura station and a very popular omiyage (souvenir) among the Japanese.

Toshimaya is a shop that sells many kinds of sweets. "Hato" (鳩) means dove in English and "sabure" (サブレ) is "sable" in French. Children loved the many white pigeons in Kamakura, so the owner of Toshimaya named the cookie "hatosabure."

Info from:
[http://wikitravel.org/en/Kamakura WikiTravel]
[http://ryokotsuzuki.tripod.com/ryoko.html Ryoko's Homepage]
[http://images.google.com.ph/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=hatosabure&sa=N&tab=wi Images]

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:44, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

== Open Translation Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=209 ...May Arrives...]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=210 Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=211 But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=212 the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=213 She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=214 "Kyon, we are good friends right...?"]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=215 Reordering of a couple lines in chapter 1]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=216 Nitpick over instant versus period of time]'''

=== Differences with the stratos translation ===

Note that most of the comments mentioned in a [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Prologue#Differences_with_the_stratos_translation|similar treatment]] of the prologue apply here.

'''format:'''

:The unindented line is the current translation.
::The following indented line is stratos' translation.
::(Any following line in parentheses is a comment on the difference between the two.)

'''differences:'''

:And so, I entered the senior high school in my area.
::Before I knew it, my days of dillydallying were over, and I had safely landed myself in a prefectural high school in my district.
::(no mention of carefree days being over in first.)

:At first, I regretted this decision as my new school sat on top of a very high hill.
::My first regret was that this school was situated atop a sizable hill.
::("At first" indicates that he came to not regret it later. That doesn't make sense in context, as there's no mitigating circumstance mentioned that would change his stance.)

:as all of you know, you sleep best right before it's time to get up.
::Then again, once you consider just how precious those last ten minutes of sleep are, ...

:the time-wasting entrance ceremony.
::while the school commencement ceremony was held in the gratuitously large gymnasium,
::(no mention of gymnasium in first. no mention of time-wasting in the second)

:Thus, I didn't look as worried (or excited) as other people.
::so I wasn’t too concerned about the trials of making friends.
::("trials of making friends" makes things clearer.)

:along with my not-so-willing new classmates, entered the 1-5 classroom.
::my classmates whose faces I would be seeing for the next year, whether I liked it or not.
::(The classmates being not-so-willing doesn't make sense, considering they had the "hopeful, yet filled with uncertainty" look just the paragraph before.)

:Our homeroom teacher, Okabe-sensei
::For homeroom, we have Okabe, a young teacher

:and having apparently ran out of things to say after that long winding speech, he said,
::Just when I thought that he would never finish, he suddenly blurted out:

:One by one, the people on the left side of the class started to introduce themselves.
::Starting from the left side of the seating chart alternating boy-girl-boy-girl, one by one, people stood up and said their name ...
::(boy-girl alternation not mentioned. Also, "starting from the left side" slightly clearer than "people on the left side")

:Some people mumbled their way through it, a few had some pretty interesting introductions, ...
::Some just mumbled their way through it. Some sounded completely relaxed about it.

:while some tried to tell lame jokes that lowered the room's temperature by a substantial degree.
::Some told lame jokes to ease the tension in the room.

:I'm starting to get nervous! Everyone should understand how I'm feeling right now, right?
:: Nerve-wracking. You know what I mean, right?
::(kind of embarrassing, because I did that edit, but the other version is better. It's hard when you don't know how much you can change without twisting the original meaning, though. Possible change: "I started getting nervous. You know the feeling, right?")

:Her small lips were tightly pursed.
::her soft pink lips tightly pursed.

:This was my first impression of this girl.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:Was she trying to be dramatic?
::Is this some kind of a joke?

:This is based on hindsight—it can't be wrong.
::I learned this the hard way later on so there's no doubt about it.

:How unforgettable.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:"...No."
:"If you are not, then what do you want?"
::"...no, but."
::"No, but what?"
::(first conversation seems like Kyon's a little more assertive. second makes him seem apologetic. Of course, his "sorry" in the next paragraph is pretty apologetic. This is a subtle point, anyway.)

:removed her glare from me disdainfully
::stopped staring at me the way one would stare at brussel sprouts

:But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking scowling-mouthed Haruhi.
::However, this didn't mean there weren't any other people in this class who hadn’t grasped the situation or were just plain blind to their surroundings.

:You should watch an episode. Oh, but it'll be hard to pick up halfway in.
::You should try it. Even if you started in the middle you wouldn't be lost.

:We started to talk about Haruhi.
::That's when the subject of Haruhi Suzumiya came up.
::(subtle thing. first sentence implies that they gathered and immediately started to talk about her. second states that it came up in conversation.)

:"That's right!"
::You got that right.
::(first is a little bit "wow, someone who understands me!" second implies Kyon's typical sarcasm.)

:If that girl was interested in you, she wouldn't say weird stuff like that.
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:Taniguchi piped in:
::Taniguchi was still talking.
::(In these novels at least, if not in the Japanese language, all dialog indications are for the preceding dialog, not the following, as in normal English usage. The colon makes it seem like Taniguchi didn't say the preceding words as well.)

:"Where did you learn all this gossip?"
::"Are there any stories about that?"

:!! not present in this translation.!!
::Then don't agree to go out in the first place.
::(That last sentence gives a strong indication that Taniguchi has some personal feelings about this behavior.)

:Taniguchi put his empty lunch-box back into his bag, and let out a sinister giggle.
::Taniguchi put his empty lunch box into his bag and smirked.
::(sinister giggle, more villainous. smirking, more know-it-all.)

:It was as if she had fallen from the sky and had been born with extreme attraction in mind!
::She definitely has enough charisma to attract the masses.

:by Friday, she would have four ribbon-tied ponytails on her head. Her actions were really enigmatic!
::And on Friday, she would have four random spots tied off by ribbons, quite an odd sight.
::(actions described as enigmatic, vs just the 4-tail hairstyle described as odd.)

:Her explanation was: "It is annoying for me to do the same club activity everyday."
::!! not present in this translation.!!

:!! not present in this translation.!!
::a grin plastered on his face.

:"You don't look like that kind of person."
::"How is that any better?"

:started to call me Kyon.
::started calling me "Kyon-kun."
::(pretty minor, but something to note, since this volume was translated from Chinese, and the exact honorifics would have been lost.)

:Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, some of the dullest topics in the world.
::This could be considered some of the most trivial information ever along with telling people about your dreams or bragging about some pet.
::(in order to get both sentences to mean the same thing, you'd have to do something like: "Frankly, topics like that -- what dreams ..." in order to more clearly state the fact that he thinks Taniguchi's rambling is one of those kinds of topics.)

:"Hmm... for a while."
:"Really?"
::"Hmm... Just recently."
::"I see."
::("Really?" sounds enthusiastic, which doesn't connect with her attitude in the next paragraph. "Really." would be better.)

:"At least that's what I think, because you look and feel different to me everyday." (Kyon)
::"I think that each day of the week gives off a different image." (Haruhi)
::(So who was it that spoke that line? It's clear that they have similar source material, but they were interpreted differently.)

:I just sat there uncomfortably and let time slip by.
::This lasted long enough for me to start feeling quite uneasy.

:In the end it's the same as mandatory education. Nothing changes at all.
::this is no different from back during compulsory education.
::(stratos is slightly more clear, though I would add a note that in Japan, only up to junior high school, is education compulsory, and high school is optional -- I didn't know that myself until about a week ago.)

:"Shut up. If I like a club, then it's unique; otherwise it's plain."
::"Any club I like is weird. Everything else is normal. Isn't that obvious?"

:It's not something important anyway. (Kyon)
::"Probably something worthless, right?" (Haruhi)
::(again, who said this line? it does make more sense for Haruhi to say it, though.)

:Total dismissal seems to be her motto.
::It appears she has a habit of using the word "totally."

:Every single one of them was a moron
::Every single one of them was ridiculously square.
::(both are derogatory, but in different senses. "square" or something like makes more sense in context.)

:"Hmm, you are right. I would ask the girl out and tell her directly."
:"Who the hell cares about you!"
:What the, did I say something wrong again?
::"Well... you think so? I'd probably call her out somewhere and tell her."
::"That's not important!"
::So is it or isn't it?
::(In the current wiki translation, she's attacking Kyon's opinion as being unimportant. In the stratos translation, she's saying that what she was complaining about isn't important.)

:"Because humans are no fun at all!"
::"Isn't that more fun!?" (to be with non-humans.)

:They wouldn't just appear right in front of us humble citizens and say ...
::there's no way someone would walk up to me and introduce himself like ...
::(Plural/singular and global/personal difference.)

:"I apologize for being late. Eh... Then let's begin!"
:He repeated again, and the class atmosphere finally reverted to normal
::"Sorry I'm late. Ah... Homeroom's starting."
::And with that iteration of his opening remarks, we returned to our daily mundane routine.
::(For stratos, the first "Homeroom's starting" is the repetition. The current translation makes it seem like he repeated yet again, making it 3 times. Also, in the wiki translation, His two lines about homeroom are not the same, hence, no repetition. In the stratos translation, "homeroom's starting" is said twice.)

:Taniguchi, with his mystified face
::Taniguchi came over with a moody expression plastered on his face.

:"How very shocking!"
:Taniguchi sarcastically put on an in-awe expression
::"It's the end of the world."
::Taniguchi had this overly exaggerated look of shock on this face.

:"... why Suzumiya would talk to you? I don't get it at all."
::"... how did Suzumiya have an actual conversation with Kyon. I can't accept it."
::("can't accept" indicates not wanting to believe. "don't get it" indicates not being able to.)

:my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.
::dampen my mood another two intervals.
::(seems a little too different to not be simply a difference between the Japanese and Chinese versions.)

:Guess who took the last seat right behind me? That's right. It's the ever scowling Haruhi!
::how did this happen, Haruhi Suzumiya sat behind me looking like she was enduring a cavity.

:"Stop saying that kind of scary stuff!"
::"That's some hazardous stuff."

:trying to go into the Major League but then you discover that the school you're attending doesn't even have a baseball team."
::planning on making it to the national championship only to discover that this high school doesn't have a baseball team."
::(wiki translation: "train in a baseball team in order to get good enough to get into the major leagues." stratos translation: "join baseball team with a dream to make it to the nationals" -- this makes more sense to me, even though both are logical.
::
::But Haruhi isn't really a "want to be" type of person, so much as a "want to win" type of person. So she'd be more likely to say the championship line. To match the stratos translation, you'd have to do something like "trying to get to the World Series", or you could use as stratos does, the generic "national championship.")

:Haruhi looked as if she were some sort of banshee ready to go to a hundred Buddhist monasteries to lay some curses. She stared at the sky with disdain and let out a huge sigh.
::Haruhi glared at the sky with crocodile eyes like those of an enchantress who has prepared to commence the ritual of a hundred prayers and sighed like the north wind.

:Haruhi just cut off my rather excellent speech, or at least that's what I think, and turned her head the other direction.
::Haruhi cut me off just as I was getting into a groove and looked away.

:This girl probably doesn't care about anything— unless it involves supernatural powers that far surpasses reality.
::This girl probably doesn't care what it is. As long as it's a phenomenon that defies the tedium of reality.

:I am normal, right?
::Least that's what I thought.
::A normal response, right?

:Tears came out of my eyes instantly.
::I could see tears of time in my eyes.
::(the wiki translation makes more sense. perhaps the stratos translation was a bit too literal?)

:My head suddenly hurt and I don't think it had anything to do with my head hitting the desk a moment ago.
::It appears that the banging into the desk wasn't the only thing making my head hurt.
::(wiki translation states that head hitting desk wasn't reason for head pain. stratos translation states that it wasn't the ONLY reason. point to stratos.)

:For now I just want you to consider where we are, THEN you can share your joy with me.
::Depending on the circumstances, I may even share your joy.

:the numbing back of my head
::my ringing head
::(back of head going numb vs head ringing from impact. Interesting to note that both Cruzz and stratos ended up using the same word. Can't be entirely sure it was independent, of course.)
--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 23:02, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=217 Suzumiya Haruhi's language]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=218 "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all."]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=219 She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220 I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=221 It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=222 What is that girl trying to pull?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47 What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever!]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=225 He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=226 My grandma was the one who first called me that.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=227 I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42 ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor...]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=228 Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=229 People with average grades]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=230 For a guy at least.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=231 At the end I got the second to last seat of the court-facing windowside column.]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=232 ...released the 50-ton bomb]'''

== Grammar Corrections ==

This contribution has been moved to forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233 Grammar Corrections]'''

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Prologue

2006-09-04T16:42:14Z

Da~Mike: removed spam posted by this user -> 71.161.222.57

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussion regarding a disputed lack of literal translation has been moved to the forum. Please click on the following link to view it: '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=208 Not literal enough?]'''

== Open Translation Issues ==

=== Differences with the stratos translation ===

This is an experiment where I go through and note discrepancies between stratos' translation and the current wiki translation. This section is intended to be edited as things get resolved, and as new discrepancies are found. Depending on how many people edit this, we can either append signatures so that the last editor is the last signature seen, or we can just leave only the last N editors, if it gets too unwieldy.

I believe the best way is to mark a section fixed, along with your signature, and later if there seem to be no objections to the changes, that section can be removed.

Note that I'm not necessarily making a judgment, just noting what I see as different, though I do, of course, give my opinions in the comments. I don't expect most of these changes to be applied, but I feel that we should still note any subtle translation differences in a side note like this, just as a service to readers.

It is interesting to note that many of these discrepancies I note are the same ones pointed out by Cardcaptor on this same talk page. (Or at least it USED to be on this same page. Follow [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=208 this link] for the text.) This gives me an extra bit of confidence in stratos' interpretations.

Also, it may seem like I'm picking on the current translation, but that's because this is the one I'm editing. There are English mistakes in the stratos translation as well, but that's not the point of this exercise. And I can't really say anything as to mistakes in translation.

'''format:'''

:This line is the current translation.
::The following indented line is stratos' translation.
::(Any following line in parentheses is a comment on the difference between the two.)

'''differences:'''

:Although I had never seen my mom kiss Santa Claus
::without having to see Mommy kissing Santa Claus.
::(this exactly mirrors the famous lyrics to that song.)

:imprisoned in a bowl-like fortress.
::imprisoned within a giant, transparent pea shell.

:used my ... trusty laser gun to fight against villains from the future trying to change history
::Repel a laser-wielding time traveler trying to change history

:against evil mutants.
::against evil espers

:didn't make my pencil move a single millimeter
::didn't even move it a micron.

:I couldn't help but get depressed at how normal the laws of physics were.
::One has to admire how well the laws of physics were written.

:because I finally convinced myself it was impossible.
::They can't possibly exist... though I kind of wish they did.

:I even reached a point where I only had a sense of nostalgia for those things.
::So I suppose my ability to hold convictions while accepting reality is a sign that I've matured.
::(no real parallels, except nostalgia hints at maturity, e.g. time having passed)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 22:42, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

User:Da~Mike

2006-09-04T16:36:08Z

Da~Mike:

I'm the self-proclaimed "Infrequent Editor".

Well, I guess you could say I'm more of a pedantic nit-picker when it comes to translations and interpretations of any other language into English.

'''I will generally abstain from editing any of the translated text''' but instead, I will mention any errors, inconsistencies or issues in each respective discussion page and offer my suggestions. This should minimise stylistic conflicts between editors and in the resulting translations.

In terms of experience with translating and editing, although I have not formally worked on any online project prior to this, I have had more than a few experiences of being a language exchange partner, often with Chinese and Japanese foreigners who were not conversant in English. As a language exchange partner, I often helped them rewrite and re-structure their work and assignments (even with their grammar when writing emails and text messages).
Having spent part of my gap year in China to learn Mandarin Chinese, I have a fairly strong grasp of the language. I have also passively learnt Japanese for several years, though my understanding of Japanese is not as strong. Despite French being my formal second language, I am hardly literate in French...

Native language: English

Learning: Japanese, Mandarin Chinese

N.B. I'm British so my suggestions will tend to revolve around translating or editing with respect to Standard British English. I have however, taken into account that the mode of English used in the translations will be American English. Hence, I shall try not to mention any discrepancies of that sort.

'''I am currently in the process of cleaning-up the Wiki discussion boards and transferring them to the forum. I intend to transfer the discussions exactly as they appeared in the Wiki in order to preserve each individual's writing style and their methods of highlighting key points.'''

'''Volume one has been cleaned.'''
'''Format/Stlye guideline talk page has been cleaned.'''

Talk:Format guideline

2006-09-04T16:32:45Z

Da~Mike:

Hello, so let's kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

* Please use the "add comment" icon above (the + symbol).
* Please scroll down to view current discussions.
* Previous discussions on related format guideline topics have been copied here for reference.

== Unresolved Issues ==

=== [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=307 Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section?] ===

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

=== [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16 Navigation] ===

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=303 anything to put on the front page?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=304 Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=302 Kyon's Narration Tense]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17 Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and bold, oh my!]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96 Page names]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=299 Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14 Solution to Partial Script Contributed]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15 Templates for common entities]'''

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=301 Chinese vs. Japanese Translation]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=306 Common Japanese terms carried over]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=323 Correct English terms for "Shinjins" and "Locked Space"]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=322 Dialogue syntax issues]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=283 SOS-Dan's full name]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=305 Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium"]'''

Talk:Format guideline

2006-09-04T16:30:04Z

Da~Mike: unified guidelines overhaul

Hello, so let's kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

* Please use the "add comment" icon above (the + symbol).
* Please scroll down to view current discussions
* Previous discussions on related format guideline topics have been copied here for reference.

== Open Translation Issues ==

=== [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=307 Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section?] ===

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

=== [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16 Navigation] ===

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=303 anything to put on the front page?]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=304 Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=302 Kyon's Narration Tense]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17 Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and bold, oh my!]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96 Page names]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=299 Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14 Solution to Partial Script Contributed]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15 Templates for common entities]'''

== Resolved Issues ==

The previous discussions have been moved to the forum. Please click on the following links to view them.

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=301 Chinese vs. Japanese Translation]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=306 Common Japanese terms carried over]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=323 Correct English terms for "Shinjins" and "Locked Space"]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=322 Dialogue syntax issues]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=283 SOS-Dan's full name]'''

*'''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=305 Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium"]'''

Talk:Format guideline

2006-09-04T15:58:43Z

Da~Mike: /* Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" */ moved to the forum

Talk:Format guideline

2006-09-04T15:01:10Z

Da~Mike: /* Dialogue syntax issues */ moved to forum

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-09-03T16:02:50Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 signing */

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to find a pretty girl asking him that question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area with people dressed as magicians surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Before he even has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

While searching for a way to return home, Saito must contend with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== I'm a familiar spirit ===

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently examining Saito's face, with the clear blue sky behind her.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age. Underneath a black cloak, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes danced upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''

''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people in black cloaks were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===
==== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 signing ====

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

* [Signature Here]

Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

* [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]]
* [[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 16:24, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 16:28, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 18:56, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 20:06, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:03, 23 August 2006 (GMT) [Please add a translation note for "hamburger"; The Japanese type.]

:*'''This section has been forwarded on to the next stage.'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:56, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

Revision 2 - This section is finished and is ready for Baka-Tsuki pdf release.
The Following Editors Approve:

* [Signature Here]

----

==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''Noble? How stupid. What nobles?''
''Aren't you just a bunch of twisted cosplaying new-religion freaks?''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====


''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the embarrassed one, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and this is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered magical beast, she wouldn't have been able to make a contract."
A few students laughed while making those comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't think of me like a fool! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake in some strange pattern.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what is it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page -- "23 俺 24 の体に何をした！" "23 me 24 's body what done!")

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I've never heard of it."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is [[#hamburger|hamburger]]. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===
==== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 signing ====

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

*[Signature Here]

Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 22:21, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
* [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:46, 27 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:49, 27 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 21:54, 27 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 08:04, 28 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:02, 3 September 2006 (GMT)

:*'''This section has been forwarded on to the next stage.'''
[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:03, 28 August 2006 (PDT)

Revision 2 - This section is finished and is ready for Baka-Tsuki pdf release.
The Following Editors Approve:

* [Signature Here]

----

==== Page 27 ====

"No, it's nothing. After all, you're just a part of my dream, so you don't need to worry about it. Now just let me wake up from this dream already."

"I don't know what you're talking about, but you want me to hit you, right?"
Louise clenched her hands into fists.

"Yes please."

Her fists began to tremble.
Louise's expression became unreadable, but it seemed a lot of thoughts were going through her head.
"Are you concerned by this situation at all?"

"Dunno."

"Why did I, the third daughter of the Vallière family... A proud descendant of an honorable lineage of nobles, have to be stuck with a familiar like you?"

"Dunno."

"...And just who decided that the contract had be sealed by a kiss?"

"Dunno. Look, will you just get it over and done with? I hate nightmares."

"Nightmare? That's my line!"
Louise thwacked Saito's head as hard as she could.
"On top of it all, that was my first kiss, you know that?!"

Perhaps she was a bit too forceful... Saito passed out thinking, ''It was mine too!''


==== Page 28 ====

Hiraga Saito. Seventeen years old and in the second year of high school.

Athletic ability: normal. Grades: average. Duration without a girlfriend: seventeen years. Overall, no positives or negatives.


Teacher's evaluation: "Ah, Hiraga-kun? He hates to lose, and he has a very strong sense of curiosity, but sometimes he just doesn't grasp the concepts."


Parents' evaluation: "Study more. You're not smart enough."

He occasionally causes accidents without even realizing it, but will take anything quite readily in stride.
Earlier when he saw those people fly, while anyone would've been surprised, his reaction was far more exaggerated than most—another significant aspect of his character.

To put it in more critical words, he just doesn't think too deeply about things before acting.

Also, he has a fiercely competitive spirit. In that sense, he might be quite similiar to Louise in personality.

Anyway, a mere thirty minutes ago, Saito had been walking down a street in Tokyo, Japan—on Earth.

He was on his way home after having his notebook computer repaired. He was quite happy in fact, since he could go on the internet once more. He'd recently registered at an online dating site, and he might even have found himself a girlfriend.

==== Page 29 ====

Though what he really wanted was something to spice up his otherwise monotonous daily life.
However, instead of discovering it on the internet, he found it in the middle of the street.

He'd been walking past the train station on his way home, when suddenly a shining mirror-like object appeared in front of him.
Saito stopped to take a good long look at it. Remember, his curiosity is about double that of a normal person.

It was a large ellipse, about two meters high and one meter wide, with no substantial thickness.
Then he noticed it was actually floating a little above the ground.

This piqued his interest. ''What kind of natural phenomenon is this,'' he wondered, as he scrutinized the sparkling mirror-like object.

''I have no idea. I've never seen or heard of any kind of phenomenon like this.'' He considered sidestepping around it, but his curiosity got the better of him.
He wanted to see if he could walk through it.

''No, maybe I shouldn't,'' he told himself. ''But it's just a couple of steps,'' he reasoned. What a helpless personality.

But first, he picked up a pebble and threw it in experimentally.
The pebble disappeared into the middle of the mirror-like object.

''Oho,'' he thought. When he checked the other side of the mirror-like object, the pebble was nowhere to be seen.
Next he pulled his house key out of his pocket. He poked the mirror-like object with the tip of the key.

==== Page 30 ====

Nothing happened.

Withdrawing the key, he examined it, but nothing about it had changed. Saito judged that there wouldn't be any immediate danger if he walked through. Which only tempted him further to do it.

In the end, even as he knew he shouldn't, he stepped forward. It was much like opening up a manga just after deciding you were going to do nothing but study from now on.

He immediately regretted it, as an intense shock assailed his senses. He suddenly remembered back to when he was a child, when his mother had bought him a strange machine that supposedly made a person smarter by running an electric current through their body. It felt a lot like that.

Saito fainted. When he opened his eyes...

He was in a fantasy world.

"Is that true?"
asked Louise, looking at Saito with an expression of disbelief. In her hand she held bread from tonight's dinner.

They were in Louise's room. It looked about [[#12_jou|12 tatami mats]] in size. If you treated the window as south, the bed was situated on the west side, the door to the north, and a big wardrobe stood to the east. All the furniture looked like valuable antiques.

==== Page 31 ====
(Paragraph continued from previous page)

Louise had brought Saito here, once he had regained consciousness.

Saito, trying to ignore the pain in his head which still hurt from the blow earlier, answered her,
"So what if it isn't?"

Saito had never felt the slightest bit resentful of his own curiosity until today.

''I never should've walked through that stupid thing...''

''This isn't Japan. It isn't even Earth.''
''Middle-school geography doesn't teach you about countries where there are magicians and flying people.''

''And even if there was such a place, what's with the huge moon? It's easily twice the size of ours.''
''Well, that's fine, I guess. Maybe in some countries there are nights when it just looks bigger.''

''But having two moons is definitely abnormal. Did one suddenly appear, and I just didn't know about it?''
''No, that can't be. There's just no way. Which means, this really isn't Earth.''

It was dark now... Night had already fallen. ''I guess my family is worrying about me right now,'' he finished sadly.

From the window, he could see the grassy plains where he'd been lying. Across the plains, illuminated by moonlight, he could also see a tall mountain range. Over to his right was a vast expanse of dense forest. Saito let out a sigh.

==== Page 32 ====

''There just aren't any wide evergreen forests like this. It's totally different from what you'd see in Japan.''

The Academy grounds he had passed on his way, looked very much like some Middle Age castle. It had been a breathtaking spectacle that would've amazed him if he'd come here on a trip.

An entrance arch and a sturdy staircase crafted from stone...
This was Tristein Magic Academy, Louise had explained.
All of the Academy students lived in dormitories on the school grounds.

''Magic Academy? Wonderful! Dormitories? Splendid! It's just like a movie!'' 

''But, this isn't Earth...!''

"I can't believe it."

"Look, neither can I."

"By another world, what do you mean?"

"There aren't any magicians, and only one moon."

"There's such a world like that?"

"I'm telling you, it's where I came from!"
Saito shouted.

"Don't yell at me, you commoner."

"Who are you calling a commoner?!"

==== Page 33 ====

"Well, you're not a mage, right? So you're a commoner."

"What's with all your talk of 'mages' and 'commoners?'"

"Hey, are you really from this world?"

"As I've been telling you all this time, I'm not."

At that, Louise set her elbows on the table with a troubled look.

On the tabletop was a lamp with an art deco style shade. Its flickering light filled the room with a pale glow. It seemed as if electricity wasn't used.

''Jeez, electricity isn't that complicated to set up, is it? I feel like I'm back in the old foreign settler's hut that our family went to ages ago.''

''Wait, 'setup...'''
''Oh, could it be... This is...''

"I've got it."

"What did you get?"
Louise asked, looking up.

"This is one of those candid camera programs. It's just a trick everyone is pulling on me, isn't it?"

"What's a 'candid camera?'"

"They stopped airing after someone got hurt, but they must've recently started coming up with new jokes, huh? So where's the camera?"

==== Page 34 ====

"What are you talking about?"

Saito sprung upon Louise.

"Kya--! What are you doing?!"

Knocking over a chair, he bore down on her.

"Where's the mike?! Is it here?"

Grabbing her roughly, he started to unbutton her blouse. However, a swift kick to the groin brought that to a halt... And left him on the floor in pain.

"Gaaaaaaaaaarrrgh..." 

"H-how dare you... To a noble such as me..."
Louise stood up, trembling furiously all over.

Through the intense agony, Saito thought, ''This is no dream.''
''Plus, this isn't Earth. It's an entirely different world.''

"Please..."

"What?!"

"Send me back home..."

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===
==== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 signing ====

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

* [Signature Here]

Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

*[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:13, 19 August 2006 (PDT)
*[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:11, 23 August 2006 (GMT)
*[[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 19:39, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
*[[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 11:33, 24 August 2006 (PDT)

:*'''This section has been forwarded on to the next stage.'''
[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:47, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

Revision 2 - This section is finished and is ready for Baka-Tsuki pdf release.
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----

==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's the only thing I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====


Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles. Not very tall, at around 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them.

If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. In the meantime, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===
==== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 signing ====

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

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Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

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:*'''This section has been forwarded on to the next stage.'''
[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:48, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

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----

==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from any and all enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke any and all thoughts he'd previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed hurt, like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives in this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page. "44 飯ぐらいは食わせて 45 くれるらしい。")

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone I happened to meet through the dating site. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity had always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended upon the room, enveloping it in shadow.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

=== Translator's Notes ===
;[[#back_to_hamburger|↑]] Hamburger
:From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger#Japan <blockquote>In Japan, hamburgers can be served in a bun, called hambāgā (ハンバーガー), or just the the patties served without a bun, known as hambāgu (ハンバーグ) or "hamburg", short for "hamburg steak".</blockquote> The type mentioned by Saito was the version without the bun. (ハンバーグ) 
;[[#back_to_12_jou|↑]] 12 Tatami mats
:Rooms in Japan are measured jō (畳), which is the number of tatami mats required to cover the floor. A tatami mat is 90 cm by 180 cm for an area of 1.62 m2 each. Twelve jō is slighly more than 19.5 m2 or almost 210 square feet.

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-27T14:47:46Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 43 */ edit

== Terminology to Standardize ==

Sushi-Y has made a forum post that pretty well obsoletes this section. Check it out [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=294 here] instead. -- this unsigned statement was made by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] on 2006-08-20 16:13:58.

One term not defined there, which shows up all over chapter 1 is 使い魔, currently translated as "Familiar Spirit." I'm wondering if we should trim that down to just "familiar." A related term is 春の使い魔召喚, which could translate to "Spring Familiar Summoning ceremony" or something similar. Any thoughts? [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:05, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Another one is 幻獣, currently translated as "Illusion Beast." When Cala-kun was on IRC last night, he seemed to imply this was a pretty generic term for a magical creature, not a specific reference to one specific type. I could have misunderstood him though (I think he was talking about it in a different context than I see it now). I'll also ask about these in the forums. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:39, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter One ==

=== Page number ===

I'll keep the page numbers for now, until we get the first half of the chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:31, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Actually just keep the page number, the other groups will need it for the scans.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:12, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Just remind everyone, after the last pages have been sent off to the other groups, please remove the page numbers.

We don't need those interuptions. (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:43, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 12 ===

'''The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1)''' She seemed to be around Saito's age and she '''wore(2)''' a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. '''Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3)''' She seems like a foreigner. '''Well... She is(4)'''. But she is such a cute '''foreigner girl(5)''', like a doll. '''Or is she a half?(6)'''

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before.

'''Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)'''

There were a lot of people with black capes '''looking at him as a stranger.(8)''' There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he '''finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9)''' This was just like a fantasy.

Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.

'''(1)''' This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky '''fall out behind a person'''?
Is the girl looking '''at''' Saito's face, '''staring at''' Saito's face or '''looking/staring''' into Saito's eyes?

* Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky.
The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

:if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(2)''' Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.

* the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.
It's easier.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(2.5)''' "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(3)''' I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced '''about'''".
The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin '''for their stage'''" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

:It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: Ah. That clears things up.
My new change:
"Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage"
for their stage -> as their stage

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:05, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

: I thought it might be something close to; "Her reddish-brown eyes danced with her strawberry blond hair, and her flawless white skin was their stage."

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 08:30, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

: The naming game gave me the source text for this sentence awhile ago but I forgot to save it! In any case, referring to the naming game's comments above, to '''anthropomorphize''' things (I hate that word...), the eyes would be the dancers while the hair would be curtains and the skin would be like a backdrop (the scenery). Hence, the hair and the skin is "the stage" while the eyes are dancing around in this "stage".
Well, at least that's my interpretation of that interpretation...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:56, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

: I actually just realized this, and was posting on how people should disregard my last interpretation, but you beat me to it... I came to the realization that my last interpretation doesn't really make as much sense (if any at all) as the previous interpretation. As for the previous interpretation, I agree with the point that The naming game brought up, in that it would be better if it were "dance/danced about." I would phrase it as, "Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes dance about, with her strawberry blond hair and flawless white skin set as their stage." It doesn't sound quite right, and can probably be improved upon. Also, should we have changed the tense of the sentence?

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:06, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(4)''' Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).

:ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

:Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.
::(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)
:She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.
::(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(5)''' foreigner girl -> foreign girl

'''(6)''' This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. '''"Or is she half-Japanese?'''

:いや、ハーフだろうか？

:No, half perhaps?

:Just for reference.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(7)''' I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

:Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: "Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"
had come to be lying -> found himself lying

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:06, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

:"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had '''gotten''' there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highligheted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 11:20, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

'''(8)''' Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a '''though he were a''' stranger".

:黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

:Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

:I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(9)''' Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:51, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

*I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

:A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.
::(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 14 ===

"Mr. Colbert!"
'''The girl who has been called Louise shouted(1)'''. The wall of people divided, '''and there appeared a middle aged man.(2)'''

'''Saito thought it was funny. Because this man looked ridiculous.(3)'''
He '''had a big wooden cane(4)''' and was wearing a '''black robe that covered him.(5)'''
What kind of look is that? He seemed like a wizard, is he sane?

I got it, this place must be a place for cosplay.
'''But this atmosphere doesn't seem right for it.(6)'''

All of a sudden Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this was an religious

group? It is possible.
They must have put me to sleep some how and brought me here while I was taking a walk in

town.
That mirror must have been a trap. If not I have no explanation for this.

Stay quiet, '''until he knows what was going on(6)''', Saito thought to himself.

'''That girl Louise keeps on talking, saying "Let me try it again", or "please", and shaking'''

'''her arms wildly.(7)'''

I felt sorry for her to be in this weird religious group, especially since she is so cute.

"What is it, Miss. Valiale?"

"Please! let me try the summoning one more time!"

I'll use this symbol '''->''' to indicate that I have or want to substitute something.

(1) -> "The girl called Louise shouted" (removed "has been")

(2) -> "and there, appeared a middle-aged man." (added a comma and a hypen)

(3) -> "Saito thought it was funny because this man looked ridiculous." (joined the two sentences)

(4) -> "sported a big wooden cane" (used the word "sported" to emphasise that the man looks ridiculous)

(5) Does the black robe cover him '''entirely''' or? Robes are either worn or donned. I don't think they "cover" people. Other ways to suggest how the man is wearing the robe would be: "the black robe was draped over him" or "the black robe hung from his shoulders".

(6) -> "But this doesn't seem to be the right atmosphere for it." (Mild grammatical change)

(7) -> "until he knows what is going on" (I don't believe people think to themselves in past tense...)

(8) -> "That girl Louise kept on saying "Let me try it again", or "please", whilst shaking her arms wildly." (IMHO, Louise was being described in the past tense, not the present tense.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:50, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

===Page 15===
I've done some rewriting to this page, but one passage still has me stumped:
"You fix a future attribute in the familiar spirit which appeared by a summoning and then advance to a specialized course with it. You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony. Whether you like it or not, you don't have a choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

The first sentace completely baffles me. Is the "fix a future attribute" supposed to mean something with respect to the different types of magic? Would a reasonable rewriting be (though the terminology would still need to be corrected):
"Your [magical aptitude] is determined by the familiar spirit you summon, so you'll be taking special advanced classes on it. ..."

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 17:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

From my reading of the original sentence, as well as your interpretation, this is how I understand them. In your interpretation, it seems that the familiar determines the mage's [magical aptitude]. Thus, the familiar affects the mage. However, in the original sentence, it seems to say that the mage imparts an attribute/ability to the familiar. Meaning, the mage affects the familiar and gives him ("fixes") an attribute to it. I'm not certain of what they mean by attribute, as it could either refer to an ability or it could very well refer to the different elements of magic. I think it would probably be best to just leave "attribute" as "attribute" and leave it a little vague.

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:32, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

===Page 16===
(1) I have no idea. -> I don't understand.

(2) It might be possible to find a chance quickly, and run away. -> It might be possible for me to find a chance and quickly run away.

(3) An abduction! I was being abducted! -> An abduction! I have been abducted!

(4) "You are kidding me..." -> "You have got to be joking..."

(5) Louise drooped her shoulders, disappointed. -> Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:46, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

This is very, very minor, but I think it sounds better as "Louise's shoulders drooped in disappointment."

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:20, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

===Page 17===

(1) "Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling to her." -> "...it was troubling her."

(2) "Hey," -> "Hey."

(3) "It usually never happens, a thing like this, done by a noble." -> "It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:08, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

お前らはただの変態コスプレ新興宗教野郎じゃないかよ。
* omae-ra wa tada no hentai cosplay shinkyou-shuukyou yarou janai ka yo.
* you(plural) only abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks aren't?
* Aren't you just a bunch of abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks?

Used "freaks" for "yarou" ... example sentences give it the meaning of anything from "guy" to any bad name you can think of. Some of those example sentences made me question the integrity of that database...

Still, that long string of name-calling was kinda fun to decipher, especially "hentai", which I, unfortunately, used the tamer interpretation for. So that's what I'm thinking of, for the new version of that sentence.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 02:47, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

The original translation that was provided did connote the original meaning (literally) but I think your change is better, except for how you chose to interpret 変態 (hentai) I think. The individual kanji constitutes of (unusual, change, strange) + (condition, figure, appearance, attitude) and based on what little I know about the usage of the word and its implications, I would think that the word "abnormal" is perhaps too gentle a description.
I would instead suggest using harsher words such as: aberrant, twisted or even queer (this word has numerous colloquial definitions though).
However, by interpreting 野郎 (yarou) as freaks, you've effectively covered both words at once. The supposed definition of "yarou" that I've seen in several dictionaries is "rascal" yet the manner by which this word is used, it would probably be more appropriate to interpret it as an obscene or blasphemous word.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:48, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

(I already discussed this with Mike on MSN, so I may be repeating some points as far as he's concerned.)

I agree that the original translation is mostly correct, but it does omit one point of tone, which is:
:唯(P); 只(P) 【ただ】 (adj-pn,adv,conj) (1) sole; only; mere; usual; common; (2) free of charge; (P)
In context, the current:
:A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?
:You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.
with the addition of just, and some retranslation:
:A noble? How stupid. What nobles?
:Aren't you just a bunch of twisted cosplaying new-religion freaks?

(Mike suggested the more extreme interpretation for "hentai")

That kind of wording makes the motivation for his disbelief a little bit more clear. That is, it's not that he doesn't believe nobles exist, that only warped people would suggest such. It's that he can't believe that THIS twisted group could possibly be nobles.

One more difference is just a wording subtlety "new religious group" -- in other words, a religious group that is new, but may follow an old religion. Or it could be (wrongly, to my mind, but I've seen it used that way) a group that follows a new religion.

The Japanese shows that it's the latter that is meant -- a group that follows a new religion. Thus the rephrase takes care of the ambiguity.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:36, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

*貴族？　アホか。何が貴族だ。お前らは...
*kizoku? aho ka. nani ga kizoku da. omae-ra wa ...
*Noble? Are you an idiot? What nobles are there? You (plural) ...

This is just a quick add to justify my change from "Give me a break, a noble?" to "What nobles?" -- also note that nouns in Japanese, by default, have no number. You have to explicitly add either singular or plural, or infer it from context. I chose plural for the second, as he immediately uses that sentence to contrast with a group.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:46, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 18 ===

(1) "Just be still." -> "Just stay still."

(2) "Uh! I told you to be still!" -> "Uh! I told you to stay still!"

(3) Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand. -> Louise gruffly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

(4) The touch of soft lips confused Saito more. -> The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:57, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 20 ===

(1) "illusion beast", IRC log explains:
:<Cala-kun> "Illusion beast"... >.>
:<Cala-kun> And "lunes".
:<BlckKnght> ah, that was the engrish I spotted earlier
:<Cala-kun> The "illusion beast" I can understand...
:<Cala-kun> And I guess Oni was either mistaken with my share of the chapter, or just hasn't got the part from the other group yet.
:<the_naming_game> if I had to guess what an illusion beast was, I'd say some kind of spirit monster
:<the_naming_game> er ... how close am I? I haven't even read that part of the chapter.
:<Cala-kun> I put it as "magical beast".
:<Cala-kun> Since there are dragons and reference to such creatrues.
:<Cala-kun> *creatures

(2) "Don't make a fool out of me!"
*バカにしないで。
*baka ni shinaide.
*fool towards do-not(te-form at end, request with "kudasai" dropped)
*not do towards fool

Despite the literal correctness of "don't make a fool out of me!", the use of "ni" with "suru" (to do) is in fact, a [http://guidetojapanese.org/surunaru.html#part2 figure of speech]. In short, it means to "decide on" --
*Don't decide on me as a fool.

Besides, it just doesn't make sense in context. Making a fool out of someone means making them look foolish. Maybe by asking them a question they can't answer, by making them do something stupid, by making them look stupid. Merely insulting them isn't enough.

In context, I felt they were just insulting her. To actually make a fool out of her, they would have to get her to try, and fail to do something. Perhaps in Japanese, that phrase doesn't need those extra requirements in order to be apt, but in English, it does.

Also, I can't imagine anyone saying "don't make a fool out of me!" -- that would be admitting they were made to look like a fool. (Even if someone did say that, I would suspect an incorrect usage.) The following, are more easily imaginable:
:"Don't make me out to be a fool!"
:"Don't take me for a fool!"
:"Don't think of me like a fool!"

Those three were my suggestions for replacement. I went with the third, because, while it's not the shortest, "Don't take me for a fool!" is a bit too "low class" for Louise to say. And "Don't make me out to be a fool!" is a bit more awkward sounding.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 18:17, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

(3) "that is how you act?" -> "this is how you act?"

Those two phrases, taken alone, mean different things to me.
*"That is how you act?" --> "That is the way you usually act?"
*"This is how you act?" --> "This is the way you're going to act?"
The second phrase is the one that fits best in its context.

(4) "If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract." -> "... she could never have ..."
*「そいつが高位の幻獣だったら、「契約」なんかできないって」
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, 'keiyaku' nanka dekinai tte
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, {contract or something} unable {I hear, I understand, I'm saying/said -- context dependent. I'd go with "I'm saying"}

Yeah, I sure typed a lot just to change "would" to "could" -- and then I thought to check the original translation, and yes, it was "could." I have to give the original translator some credit. Despite doing a literal and sometimes confusing translation, as well as missing figures of speech, I found nothing that was dead wrong.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

:I ended up changing it to "wouldn't have been able to make a contract." -- "could" does sound a little strange in context, and that's probably why someone changed it to "would" in the first place.
:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:12, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

(5) "A few students laughed at the frequently said comments." -> "A few students laughed as they made those comments."
Original:
:(A) Few students laughed as they made those comments.
Current:
:A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.
Japanese:
:何人かの生徒が、笑いながら言った。
:some students laughed while said.
(Just to affirm accuracy of original translation)

So I'm changing it back to that original phrase. Note that there's that problem of dialogue attribution in Japanese again -- it usually points to the dialogue preceding. The original sentence seems to do a decent job of handling that, though, so I've let it be.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:29, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 21 ===

(1) "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected, to stop them." - > "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them."

(2) " but I can't just lay around quietly -> "but I can't just lie around quietly"

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Montmorency the Fragrance" -> "Montmorency the Perfume"

The change being, conforming to the guidelines, however, the guideline has yet to be agreed upon.

Personally I find Fragrance a more elegant and sophisicated description compared to "Perfume", which conjures an image of artificial pretense. While Fragrance gives the impression of natural beauty and inane ability.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:22, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 22 ===
(1) "The feeling of heat lasted only for a second." -> "The hot sensation..."

(2) "The middle-aged cosplaying man who is called Colbert came to the kneeing Saito, and checked the back of his left hand." -> "...man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito and checked the back of his left hand."

(3) "It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern he had never seen before." -> "...in a pattern I have never seen before."

(4) "...he really lost it." -> "Saito really lost it." (to minimise confusion)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(1) "The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around then floated in the air." -> "...and then rose gently into the air." ('floated in the air' implies he's already there)

(2) "Saito's jaw dropped as he stared at him." -> "Saito's jaw dropped in shock." (gets to the point)

--[[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 19:35, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

*ヘビがのたくっているような、見たことのない模様である。
*hepi ga notakutte iru you na, mita koto no nai mo-you de aru.
*{snake wriggling}-manner-like, {{seen thing}-characteristic/essence}-not pattern is.
*like a wriggling-snake, an unfamiliar pattern.

(I'm not 100% sure about the function of the comma. I have the feeling that it's only in the Japanese so that the two adjectives -- and they're nothing but complex adjectives, really -- can be more easily read/heard.)

The "past-tense-verb koto (thing/event)" construction is [http://guidetojapanese.org/genericnoun.html#part2 quite common] in Japanese.
:<< Using the past tense of the verb with 「こと」, you can talk about whether an event has ever taken place. This is essentially the only way you can say "have done" in Japanese so this is a very useful expression. You need to use this grammar any time you want to talk about whether someone has ever done something. >>

But in English, explicitly saying "I've never seen this before" carries extra emphasis, because we usually use special case, simpler ways of saying that. Seeing being practically synonymous with knowing, recognizing, etc. Thus, I tried to use one of those simpler ways:
:''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake in some strange pattern.''
:(Mike's responsible for the death of the "snake, in" comma. Blame him.)

Even though I consider it to be more reminiscent of someone looking through binoculars at something, it's still something I'd actually imagine someone American would say. Yes, that's my language-centrism again...

And to an extent, he really IS looking at it from a distance, remotely, barely understanding what's going on. In any case, this whole post was a long way of saying that I wanted the sentence to sound more like something someone would say on the spur of the moment -- and I realize that's very subjective -- while at the same time not changing the meaning unduly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:04, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 23 ===

(1) "Everyone who was floating flew towards that stone wall castle quietly." -> "Everyone who was floating flew towards the stone-walled castle quietly."

(2) "The only ones left behind were the girl named Louise and Saito." -> "The only ones left behind was the girl named Louise and Saito."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 24 ===

(1) "Of course they do, what would we do if mages couldn't fly?" -> "Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

(2) "This is Tristein! And this is the well known Tristein Magic School!" -> "This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

(renown = The quality of being widely honoured and acclaimed; fame.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 25 ===

才人は笑いながら言った。しかし、ルイズは笑わない。

Saito laughed while said. However, Louise laughed-not.

:(just a quick literal translation to justify an edit revert.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:34, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 26 ===

<cite>
Maijis those flew away from here and those fantasy word connect.
</cite>

Maijis?

Mages perhaps?

(2) "Tonight's dinner is hamburger." -> "Tonight's dinner is hamburgers."

I personally dislike this sentence. I changed what little I could to make it sound better.
While I am aware that "hamburger" is how Japanese people literally refer to beef patties, I think it should either be edited to flow well in English or a translation note be added for this.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 31 ===
(1) "From the window, he could see the grass plains where he'd rolled around."
*窓がらは、夜空のほかに先ほど才人が寝転がっていた草原が見えた。
(the word "寝転" is currently up for discussion.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 05:23, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 35 ===

(1) "Why did I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!" -> Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

did -> do ("did" would be used if Lousie was looking back at the past... not much of a past with this guy so far)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 36 ===

(1) unconcerned -> indifferent -> dispassionate (I think her face simply isn't showing any emotion, not that she doesn't care)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "...and the computer came to life with a 'whirr.'" -> "...and the computer whirred to life."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:29, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 37 ===

(1) "Louise stuck out her lips in a pout." -> "Louise pouted." (removed redundant words)

(2) "Clutching at her own long hair, Louise just shook her head." -> "Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Worry was etched on Louise's face as she answered Saito." -> "Louise's face was etched with anxiety as she answered Saito." ->

(Worry didn't seem that appropriate. The closest match to worry was anxiety but that doesn't seem to be the manner by which Louise responded. It seems more as though she's either uneasy or uncomfortable because she doesn't know how to undo what she did."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 38 ===

(1) "Normally only things like animals or magical beasts are summoned." -> "Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 39 ===

(1) "...and not too tall with a height of 155cm." (that's really short actually... I didn't change this since this came from a Japanese book aimed at Japanese people...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

* 背はそんなに高くない。百五十五センチといったところだろうか。
* sei sonna ni takakunai. hyaku go juu go centi to itta tokoro darou ka.
* height {that towards, that way} tall-not. 155cm {you might say} place for sure?
* She's not all that tall. Around 155cm, I'd say?
(I took some liberties with that final translation, but only in the nuances. The underlying ideas are pretty clear.)

So it's the other use of "not too tall" not as in "too tall, too short, just right" -- but as in "not very tall" or as we say in America to describe someone who's slow on the uptake "not too swift."

I will change it to something a little more clear, by breaking the height part out into its own sentence, and removing the confusing use of "too", like so:
:If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles. Not very tall, at around 155cm. Her eyes were like a curious kitten's ...
If you noticed, the original text had the guessing of her height as a question. I'm not certain whether or not that marks it as Saito's internal speech or not. I've left that alone for now.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 07:27, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 40 ===

(1) "But mostly they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not actually do anything relevant." -> "But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant."

(2) "But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you." -> "But it seems that doesn't work with you." (I basically rolled back the change)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:31, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 41 ===

(1) "Yeah yeah." -> "Yes yes." (This is an issue to do with Louise's manner of speech, which I have raised in the "Unified Guidelines"... and concluded that it wasn't really necessary...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..." -> "The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

(The word precarious covers the definition of problematic as well as indicates that it would be dangerous.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:33, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

:This is in regard to Da~Mike's (2)

:The "precarious" part seems more about Louise being pissed that her familiar is so helpless and uncool, not on her being worried about her familiar being in danger because he might not be up to the task. Yeah, up to this point, she's a typical princess type, except for the bad magic thing, which by itself, propels her quite a few steps up the ladder of moe.

:I went ahead and changed it back to what was there before, on the reasoning that while part of that bit of dialogue is probably Louise repeating something almost verbatim that she's been lectured on, that she would still be more likely to render it in "high class", or "lofty and eloquent" American speech. I feel the key words she repeats verbatim are "task", "protecting", "enemies", "duty", "priority" -- any exact speech mannerisms would most likely have been lost, since I'm imagining she only heard this type of thing once or twice as they got to the part of class pertaining to familiars.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:52, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 42 ===

(1) "And then she brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse." -> "She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 43 ===

(1) "Saito thought, face heating up" -> "Saito thought as his face began to flush"

(2) "Kuyashii" 悔しい　-> rueful -> disgruntled
"kuyashii" is more accurately translated as vexed/dissapointed or chagrined. I tried to find a word that seemed to match the tone of Louise's speech and the mood a typical "boy" might be in after being rejected (presumably from asking a girl out).

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

IRC log explains:
:<the_naming_game> Ah, I see what you mean about "rueful" and kuyashii, Cala-kun
:<Cala-kun> But the thing was, I didn't think it was quite a situation of regret or frustration.
:<the_naming_game> yeah, the "rejected boy" image clinches it pretty closely, I think.
:<Cala-kun> It seemed more she was chiding him gently.
:<the_naming_game> I'm of two minds
:<the_naming_game> first, she's still feeling defeated over her summoning failure.
:<the_naming_game> and second, something to do with him jumping up, or not being happy as her familiar ... something to do with Saito, right then and there.
:<the_naming_game> Ah, definitely the second now that I read again.
:<the_naming_game> hm. hurt, miffed, wounded, aggrieved (thesaurus)
:<the_naming_game> I'm leaning towards "hurt"
:<Cala-kun> That works.
(That was the extent of the "kuyashii" conversation, so I'm reasonably certain he didn't just say that to shut me up! He's pretty patient, in any case.)

So from what I gather, Cala-kun wanted the mood of "rueful" -- being emotionally brought down to the point where you're reflective -- but the meaning of "disappointed + vexed". "Hurt" is a reasonable approximation.

"Disgruntled" will always bring to mind (In America, at least.) images of postal workers going postal, hence, not the best choice. I believe the "typical" Japanese boy is supposed to be rather stricken if he gets rejected. See Kashimashi, or any number of works I'm not familiar with...

In any case, the tone used afterwards would be chiding, since lashing out is Louise's way of responding to any kind of hurt or insult. However it would start off slow, until she managed to shrug off her initial emotion down, and then it would gather steam.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 08:13, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

That’s a fine change as far as I can tell. While I still am unsure about using "hurt" as the word to describe how Louise's feelings in that scene, the extra detail following it ("like a boy who got rejected") helps clarify her emotions.
I guess there are a couple of Japanese words to describe certain emotions quite specifically, which simply do not translate very well in to English...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 15:44, 27 August 2006 (GMT)

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-27T14:46:14Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 43 */ ed note

== Terminology to Standardize ==

Sushi-Y has made a forum post that pretty well obsoletes this section. Check it out [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=294 here] instead. -- this unsigned statement was made by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] on 2006-08-20 16:13:58.

One term not defined there, which shows up all over chapter 1 is 使い魔, currently translated as "Familiar Spirit." I'm wondering if we should trim that down to just "familiar." A related term is 春の使い魔召喚, which could translate to "Spring Familiar Summoning ceremony" or something similar. Any thoughts? [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:05, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Another one is 幻獣, currently translated as "Illusion Beast." When Cala-kun was on IRC last night, he seemed to imply this was a pretty generic term for a magical creature, not a specific reference to one specific type. I could have misunderstood him though (I think he was talking about it in a different context than I see it now). I'll also ask about these in the forums. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:39, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter One ==

=== Page number ===

I'll keep the page numbers for now, until we get the first half of the chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:31, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Actually just keep the page number, the other groups will need it for the scans.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:12, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Just remind everyone, after the last pages have been sent off to the other groups, please remove the page numbers.

We don't need those interuptions. (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:43, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 12 ===

'''The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1)''' She seemed to be around Saito's age and she '''wore(2)''' a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. '''Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3)''' She seems like a foreigner. '''Well... She is(4)'''. But she is such a cute '''foreigner girl(5)''', like a doll. '''Or is she a half?(6)'''

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before.

'''Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)'''

There were a lot of people with black capes '''looking at him as a stranger.(8)''' There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he '''finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9)''' This was just like a fantasy.

Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.

'''(1)''' This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky '''fall out behind a person'''?
Is the girl looking '''at''' Saito's face, '''staring at''' Saito's face or '''looking/staring''' into Saito's eyes?

* Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky.
The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

:if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(2)''' Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.

* the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.
It's easier.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(2.5)''' "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(3)''' I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced '''about'''".
The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin '''for their stage'''" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

:It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: Ah. That clears things up.
My new change:
"Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage"
for their stage -> as their stage

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:05, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

: I thought it might be something close to; "Her reddish-brown eyes danced with her strawberry blond hair, and her flawless white skin was their stage."

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 08:30, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

: The naming game gave me the source text for this sentence awhile ago but I forgot to save it! In any case, referring to the naming game's comments above, to '''anthropomorphize''' things (I hate that word...), the eyes would be the dancers while the hair would be curtains and the skin would be like a backdrop (the scenery). Hence, the hair and the skin is "the stage" while the eyes are dancing around in this "stage".
Well, at least that's my interpretation of that interpretation...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:56, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

: I actually just realized this, and was posting on how people should disregard my last interpretation, but you beat me to it... I came to the realization that my last interpretation doesn't really make as much sense (if any at all) as the previous interpretation. As for the previous interpretation, I agree with the point that The naming game brought up, in that it would be better if it were "dance/danced about." I would phrase it as, "Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes dance about, with her strawberry blond hair and flawless white skin set as their stage." It doesn't sound quite right, and can probably be improved upon. Also, should we have changed the tense of the sentence?

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:06, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(4)''' Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).

:ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

:Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.
::(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)
:She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.
::(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(5)''' foreigner girl -> foreign girl

'''(6)''' This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. '''"Or is she half-Japanese?'''

:いや、ハーフだろうか？

:No, half perhaps?

:Just for reference.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(7)''' I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

:Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: "Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"
had come to be lying -> found himself lying

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:06, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

:"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had '''gotten''' there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highligheted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 11:20, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

'''(8)''' Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a '''though he were a''' stranger".

:黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

:Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

:I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(9)''' Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:51, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

*I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

:A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.
::(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 14 ===

"Mr. Colbert!"
'''The girl who has been called Louise shouted(1)'''. The wall of people divided, '''and there appeared a middle aged man.(2)'''

'''Saito thought it was funny. Because this man looked ridiculous.(3)'''
He '''had a big wooden cane(4)''' and was wearing a '''black robe that covered him.(5)'''
What kind of look is that? He seemed like a wizard, is he sane?

I got it, this place must be a place for cosplay.
'''But this atmosphere doesn't seem right for it.(6)'''

All of a sudden Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this was an religious

group? It is possible.
They must have put me to sleep some how and brought me here while I was taking a walk in

town.
That mirror must have been a trap. If not I have no explanation for this.

Stay quiet, '''until he knows what was going on(6)''', Saito thought to himself.

'''That girl Louise keeps on talking, saying "Let me try it again", or "please", and shaking'''

'''her arms wildly.(7)'''

I felt sorry for her to be in this weird religious group, especially since she is so cute.

"What is it, Miss. Valiale?"

"Please! let me try the summoning one more time!"

I'll use this symbol '''->''' to indicate that I have or want to substitute something.

(1) -> "The girl called Louise shouted" (removed "has been")

(2) -> "and there, appeared a middle-aged man." (added a comma and a hypen)

(3) -> "Saito thought it was funny because this man looked ridiculous." (joined the two sentences)

(4) -> "sported a big wooden cane" (used the word "sported" to emphasise that the man looks ridiculous)

(5) Does the black robe cover him '''entirely''' or? Robes are either worn or donned. I don't think they "cover" people. Other ways to suggest how the man is wearing the robe would be: "the black robe was draped over him" or "the black robe hung from his shoulders".

(6) -> "But this doesn't seem to be the right atmosphere for it." (Mild grammatical change)

(7) -> "until he knows what is going on" (I don't believe people think to themselves in past tense...)

(8) -> "That girl Louise kept on saying "Let me try it again", or "please", whilst shaking her arms wildly." (IMHO, Louise was being described in the past tense, not the present tense.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:50, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

===Page 15===
I've done some rewriting to this page, but one passage still has me stumped:
"You fix a future attribute in the familiar spirit which appeared by a summoning and then advance to a specialized course with it. You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony. Whether you like it or not, you don't have a choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

The first sentace completely baffles me. Is the "fix a future attribute" supposed to mean something with respect to the different types of magic? Would a reasonable rewriting be (though the terminology would still need to be corrected):
"Your [magical aptitude] is determined by the familiar spirit you summon, so you'll be taking special advanced classes on it. ..."

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 17:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

From my reading of the original sentence, as well as your interpretation, this is how I understand them. In your interpretation, it seems that the familiar determines the mage's [magical aptitude]. Thus, the familiar affects the mage. However, in the original sentence, it seems to say that the mage imparts an attribute/ability to the familiar. Meaning, the mage affects the familiar and gives him ("fixes") an attribute to it. I'm not certain of what they mean by attribute, as it could either refer to an ability or it could very well refer to the different elements of magic. I think it would probably be best to just leave "attribute" as "attribute" and leave it a little vague.

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:32, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

===Page 16===
(1) I have no idea. -> I don't understand.

(2) It might be possible to find a chance quickly, and run away. -> It might be possible for me to find a chance and quickly run away.

(3) An abduction! I was being abducted! -> An abduction! I have been abducted!

(4) "You are kidding me..." -> "You have got to be joking..."

(5) Louise drooped her shoulders, disappointed. -> Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:46, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

This is very, very minor, but I think it sounds better as "Louise's shoulders drooped in disappointment."

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:20, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

===Page 17===

(1) "Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling to her." -> "...it was troubling her."

(2) "Hey," -> "Hey."

(3) "It usually never happens, a thing like this, done by a noble." -> "It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:08, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

お前らはただの変態コスプレ新興宗教野郎じゃないかよ。
* omae-ra wa tada no hentai cosplay shinkyou-shuukyou yarou janai ka yo.
* you(plural) only abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks aren't?
* Aren't you just a bunch of abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks?

Used "freaks" for "yarou" ... example sentences give it the meaning of anything from "guy" to any bad name you can think of. Some of those example sentences made me question the integrity of that database...

Still, that long string of name-calling was kinda fun to decipher, especially "hentai", which I, unfortunately, used the tamer interpretation for. So that's what I'm thinking of, for the new version of that sentence.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 02:47, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

The original translation that was provided did connote the original meaning (literally) but I think your change is better, except for how you chose to interpret 変態 (hentai) I think. The individual kanji constitutes of (unusual, change, strange) + (condition, figure, appearance, attitude) and based on what little I know about the usage of the word and its implications, I would think that the word "abnormal" is perhaps too gentle a description.
I would instead suggest using harsher words such as: aberrant, twisted or even queer (this word has numerous colloquial definitions though).
However, by interpreting 野郎 (yarou) as freaks, you've effectively covered both words at once. The supposed definition of "yarou" that I've seen in several dictionaries is "rascal" yet the manner by which this word is used, it would probably be more appropriate to interpret it as an obscene or blasphemous word.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:48, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

(I already discussed this with Mike on MSN, so I may be repeating some points as far as he's concerned.)

I agree that the original translation is mostly correct, but it does omit one point of tone, which is:
:唯(P); 只(P) 【ただ】 (adj-pn,adv,conj) (1) sole; only; mere; usual; common; (2) free of charge; (P)
In context, the current:
:A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?
:You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.
with the addition of just, and some retranslation:
:A noble? How stupid. What nobles?
:Aren't you just a bunch of twisted cosplaying new-religion freaks?

(Mike suggested the more extreme interpretation for "hentai")

That kind of wording makes the motivation for his disbelief a little bit more clear. That is, it's not that he doesn't believe nobles exist, that only warped people would suggest such. It's that he can't believe that THIS twisted group could possibly be nobles.

One more difference is just a wording subtlety "new religious group" -- in other words, a religious group that is new, but may follow an old religion. Or it could be (wrongly, to my mind, but I've seen it used that way) a group that follows a new religion.

The Japanese shows that it's the latter that is meant -- a group that follows a new religion. Thus the rephrase takes care of the ambiguity.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:36, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

*貴族？　アホか。何が貴族だ。お前らは...
*kizoku? aho ka. nani ga kizoku da. omae-ra wa ...
*Noble? Are you an idiot? What nobles are there? You (plural) ...

This is just a quick add to justify my change from "Give me a break, a noble?" to "What nobles?" -- also note that nouns in Japanese, by default, have no number. You have to explicitly add either singular or plural, or infer it from context. I chose plural for the second, as he immediately uses that sentence to contrast with a group.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:46, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 18 ===

(1) "Just be still." -> "Just stay still."

(2) "Uh! I told you to be still!" -> "Uh! I told you to stay still!"

(3) Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand. -> Louise gruffly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

(4) The touch of soft lips confused Saito more. -> The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:57, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 20 ===

(1) "illusion beast", IRC log explains:
:<Cala-kun> "Illusion beast"... >.>
:<Cala-kun> And "lunes".
:<BlckKnght> ah, that was the engrish I spotted earlier
:<Cala-kun> The "illusion beast" I can understand...
:<Cala-kun> And I guess Oni was either mistaken with my share of the chapter, or just hasn't got the part from the other group yet.
:<the_naming_game> if I had to guess what an illusion beast was, I'd say some kind of spirit monster
:<the_naming_game> er ... how close am I? I haven't even read that part of the chapter.
:<Cala-kun> I put it as "magical beast".
:<Cala-kun> Since there are dragons and reference to such creatrues.
:<Cala-kun> *creatures

(2) "Don't make a fool out of me!"
*バカにしないで。
*baka ni shinaide.
*fool towards do-not(te-form at end, request with "kudasai" dropped)
*not do towards fool

Despite the literal correctness of "don't make a fool out of me!", the use of "ni" with "suru" (to do) is in fact, a [http://guidetojapanese.org/surunaru.html#part2 figure of speech]. In short, it means to "decide on" --
*Don't decide on me as a fool.

Besides, it just doesn't make sense in context. Making a fool out of someone means making them look foolish. Maybe by asking them a question they can't answer, by making them do something stupid, by making them look stupid. Merely insulting them isn't enough.

In context, I felt they were just insulting her. To actually make a fool out of her, they would have to get her to try, and fail to do something. Perhaps in Japanese, that phrase doesn't need those extra requirements in order to be apt, but in English, it does.

Also, I can't imagine anyone saying "don't make a fool out of me!" -- that would be admitting they were made to look like a fool. (Even if someone did say that, I would suspect an incorrect usage.) The following, are more easily imaginable:
:"Don't make me out to be a fool!"
:"Don't take me for a fool!"
:"Don't think of me like a fool!"

Those three were my suggestions for replacement. I went with the third, because, while it's not the shortest, "Don't take me for a fool!" is a bit too "low class" for Louise to say. And "Don't make me out to be a fool!" is a bit more awkward sounding.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 18:17, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

(3) "that is how you act?" -> "this is how you act?"

Those two phrases, taken alone, mean different things to me.
*"That is how you act?" --> "That is the way you usually act?"
*"This is how you act?" --> "This is the way you're going to act?"
The second phrase is the one that fits best in its context.

(4) "If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract." -> "... she could never have ..."
*「そいつが高位の幻獣だったら、「契約」なんかできないって」
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, 'keiyaku' nanka dekinai tte
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, {contract or something} unable {I hear, I understand, I'm saying/said -- context dependent. I'd go with "I'm saying"}

Yeah, I sure typed a lot just to change "would" to "could" -- and then I thought to check the original translation, and yes, it was "could." I have to give the original translator some credit. Despite doing a literal and sometimes confusing translation, as well as missing figures of speech, I found nothing that was dead wrong.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

:I ended up changing it to "wouldn't have been able to make a contract." -- "could" does sound a little strange in context, and that's probably why someone changed it to "would" in the first place.
:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:12, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

(5) "A few students laughed at the frequently said comments." -> "A few students laughed as they made those comments."
Original:
:(A) Few students laughed as they made those comments.
Current:
:A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.
Japanese:
:何人かの生徒が、笑いながら言った。
:some students laughed while said.
(Just to affirm accuracy of original translation)

So I'm changing it back to that original phrase. Note that there's that problem of dialogue attribution in Japanese again -- it usually points to the dialogue preceding. The original sentence seems to do a decent job of handling that, though, so I've let it be.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:29, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 21 ===

(1) "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected, to stop them." - > "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them."

(2) " but I can't just lay around quietly -> "but I can't just lie around quietly"

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Montmorency the Fragrance" -> "Montmorency the Perfume"

The change being, conforming to the guidelines, however, the guideline has yet to be agreed upon.

Personally I find Fragrance a more elegant and sophisicated description compared to "Perfume", which conjures an image of artificial pretense. While Fragrance gives the impression of natural beauty and inane ability.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:22, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 22 ===
(1) "The feeling of heat lasted only for a second." -> "The hot sensation..."

(2) "The middle-aged cosplaying man who is called Colbert came to the kneeing Saito, and checked the back of his left hand." -> "...man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito and checked the back of his left hand."

(3) "It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern he had never seen before." -> "...in a pattern I have never seen before."

(4) "...he really lost it." -> "Saito really lost it." (to minimise confusion)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(1) "The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around then floated in the air." -> "...and then rose gently into the air." ('floated in the air' implies he's already there)

(2) "Saito's jaw dropped as he stared at him." -> "Saito's jaw dropped in shock." (gets to the point)

--[[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 19:35, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

*ヘビがのたくっているような、見たことのない模様である。
*hepi ga notakutte iru you na, mita koto no nai mo-you de aru.
*{snake wriggling}-manner-like, {{seen thing}-characteristic/essence}-not pattern is.
*like a wriggling-snake, an unfamiliar pattern.

(I'm not 100% sure about the function of the comma. I have the feeling that it's only in the Japanese so that the two adjectives -- and they're nothing but complex adjectives, really -- can be more easily read/heard.)

The "past-tense-verb koto (thing/event)" construction is [http://guidetojapanese.org/genericnoun.html#part2 quite common] in Japanese.
:<< Using the past tense of the verb with 「こと」, you can talk about whether an event has ever taken place. This is essentially the only way you can say "have done" in Japanese so this is a very useful expression. You need to use this grammar any time you want to talk about whether someone has ever done something. >>

But in English, explicitly saying "I've never seen this before" carries extra emphasis, because we usually use special case, simpler ways of saying that. Seeing being practically synonymous with knowing, recognizing, etc. Thus, I tried to use one of those simpler ways:
:''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake in some strange pattern.''
:(Mike's responsible for the death of the "snake, in" comma. Blame him.)

Even though I consider it to be more reminiscent of someone looking through binoculars at something, it's still something I'd actually imagine someone American would say. Yes, that's my language-centrism again...

And to an extent, he really IS looking at it from a distance, remotely, barely understanding what's going on. In any case, this whole post was a long way of saying that I wanted the sentence to sound more like something someone would say on the spur of the moment -- and I realize that's very subjective -- while at the same time not changing the meaning unduly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:04, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 23 ===

(1) "Everyone who was floating flew towards that stone wall castle quietly." -> "Everyone who was floating flew towards the stone-walled castle quietly."

(2) "The only ones left behind were the girl named Louise and Saito." -> "The only ones left behind was the girl named Louise and Saito."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 24 ===

(1) "Of course they do, what would we do if mages couldn't fly?" -> "Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

(2) "This is Tristein! And this is the well known Tristein Magic School!" -> "This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

(renown = The quality of being widely honoured and acclaimed; fame.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 25 ===

才人は笑いながら言った。しかし、ルイズは笑わない。

Saito laughed while said. However, Louise laughed-not.

:(just a quick literal translation to justify an edit revert.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:34, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 26 ===

<cite>
Maijis those flew away from here and those fantasy word connect.
</cite>

Maijis?

Mages perhaps?

(2) "Tonight's dinner is hamburger." -> "Tonight's dinner is hamburgers."

I personally dislike this sentence. I changed what little I could to make it sound better.
While I am aware that "hamburger" is how Japanese people literally refer to beef patties, I think it should either be edited to flow well in English or a translation note be added for this.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 31 ===
(1) "From the window, he could see the grass plains where he'd rolled around."
*窓がらは、夜空のほかに先ほど才人が寝転がっていた草原が見えた。
(the word "寝転" is currently up for discussion.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 05:23, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 35 ===

(1) "Why did I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!" -> Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

did -> do ("did" would be used if Lousie was looking back at the past... not much of a past with this guy so far)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 36 ===

(1) unconcerned -> indifferent -> dispassionate (I think her face simply isn't showing any emotion, not that she doesn't care)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "...and the computer came to life with a 'whirr.'" -> "...and the computer whirred to life."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:29, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 37 ===

(1) "Louise stuck out her lips in a pout." -> "Louise pouted." (removed redundant words)

(2) "Clutching at her own long hair, Louise just shook her head." -> "Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Worry was etched on Louise's face as she answered Saito." -> "Louise's face was etched with anxiety as she answered Saito." ->

(Worry didn't seem that appropriate. The closest match to worry was anxiety but that doesn't seem to be the manner by which Louise responded. It seems more as though she's either uneasy or uncomfortable because she doesn't know how to undo what she did."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 38 ===

(1) "Normally only things like animals or magical beasts are summoned." -> "Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 39 ===

(1) "...and not too tall with a height of 155cm." (that's really short actually... I didn't change this since this came from a Japanese book aimed at Japanese people...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

* 背はそんなに高くない。百五十五センチといったところだろうか。
* sei sonna ni takakunai. hyaku go juu go centi to itta tokoro darou ka.
* height {that towards, that way} tall-not. 155cm {you might say} place for sure?
* She's not all that tall. Around 155cm, I'd say?
(I took some liberties with that final translation, but only in the nuances. The underlying ideas are pretty clear.)

So it's the other use of "not too tall" not as in "too tall, too short, just right" -- but as in "not very tall" or as we say in America to describe someone who's slow on the uptake "not too swift."

I will change it to something a little more clear, by breaking the height part out into its own sentence, and removing the confusing use of "too", like so:
:If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles. Not very tall, at around 155cm. Her eyes were like a curious kitten's ...
If you noticed, the original text had the guessing of her height as a question. I'm not certain whether or not that marks it as Saito's internal speech or not. I've left that alone for now.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 07:27, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 40 ===

(1) "But mostly they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not actually do anything relevant." -> "But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant."

(2) "But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you." -> "But it seems that doesn't work with you." (I basically rolled back the change)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:31, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 41 ===

(1) "Yeah yeah." -> "Yes yes." (This is an issue to do with Louise's manner of speech, which I have raised in the "Unified Guidelines"... and concluded that it wasn't really necessary...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..." -> "The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

(The word precarious covers the definition of problematic as well as indicates that it would be dangerous.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:33, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

:This is in regard to Da~Mike's (2)

:The "precarious" part seems more about Louise being pissed that her familiar is so helpless and uncool, not on her being worried about her familiar being in danger because he might not be up to the task. Yeah, up to this point, she's a typical princess type, except for the bad magic thing, which by itself, propels her quite a few steps up the ladder of moe.

:I went ahead and changed it back to what was there before, on the reasoning that while part of that bit of dialogue is probably Louise repeating something almost verbatim that she's been lectured on, that she would still be more likely to render it in "high class", or "lofty and eloquent" American speech. I feel the key words she repeats verbatim are "task", "protecting", "enemies", "duty", "priority" -- any exact speech mannerisms would most likely have been lost, since I'm imagining she only heard this type of thing once or twice as they got to the part of class pertaining to familiars.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:52, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 42 ===

(1) "And then she brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse." -> "She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 43 ===

(1) "Saito thought, face heating up" -> "Saito thought as his face began to flush"

(2) "Kuyashii" 悔しい　-> rueful -> disgruntled
"kuyashii" is more accurately translated as vexed/dissapointed or chagrined. I tried to find a word that seemed to match the tone of Louise's speech and the mood a typical "boy" might be in after being rejected (presumably from asking a girl out).

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

IRC log explains:
:<the_naming_game> Ah, I see what you mean about "rueful" and kuyashii, Cala-kun
:<Cala-kun> But the thing was, I didn't think it was quite a situation of regret or frustration.
:<the_naming_game> yeah, the "rejected boy" image clinches it pretty closely, I think.
:<Cala-kun> It seemed more she was chiding him gently.
:<the_naming_game> I'm of two minds
:<the_naming_game> first, she's still feeling defeated over her summoning failure.
:<the_naming_game> and second, something to do with him jumping up, or not being happy as her familiar ... something to do with Saito, right then and there.
:<the_naming_game> Ah, definitely the second now that I read again.
:<the_naming_game> hm. hurt, miffed, wounded, aggrieved (thesaurus)
:<the_naming_game> I'm leaning towards "hurt"
:<Cala-kun> That works.
(That was the extent of the "kuyashii" conversation, so I'm reasonably certain he didn't just say that to shut me up! He's pretty patient, in any case.)

So from what I gather, Cala-kun wanted the mood of "rueful" -- being emotionally brought down to the point where you're reflective -- but the meaning of "disappointed + vexed". "Hurt" is a reasonable approximation.

"Disgruntled" will always bring to mind (In America, at least.) images of postal workers going postal, hence, not the best choice. I believe the "typical" Japanese boy is supposed to be rather stricken if he gets rejected. See Kashimashi, or any number of works I'm not familiar with...

In any case, the tone used afterwards would be chiding, since lashing out is Louise's way of responding to any kind of hurt or insult. However it would start off slow, until she managed to shrug off her initial emotion down, and then it would gather steam.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 08:13, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

That’s a fine change as far as I can tell. While I still am unsure about using "hurt" as the word to describe how Louise might be feeling, the extra detail following it ("like a boy who got rejected") helps clarify her emotions.
I guess there are a couple of Japanese words to describe certain emotions quite specifically, which simply do not translate very well in to English...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 15:44, 27 August 2006 (GMT)

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T18:12:13Z

Da~Mike: re-structuring

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Page names ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T17:39:42Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T17:33:32Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T17:27:03Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T17:13:54Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T16:51:06Z

Da~Mike: old post removed

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T16:39:59Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

'''EDIT''' -- 18:56, 9 May 2006 (GMT)
* I can now confirm that this series of novels are classified as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel "'''Light Novels'''"]. Please ensure you know what this means and keep this in mind when you continue to translate and or edit these novels.

Thank you

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T15:20:26Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

'''EDIT''' -- 18:56, 9 May 2006 (GMT)
* I can now confirm that this series of novels are classified as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel "'''Light Novels'''"]. Please ensure you know what this means and keep this in mind when you continue to translate and or edit these novels.

Thank you

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T15:17:48Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been moved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

'''EDIT''' -- 18:56, 9 May 2006 (GMT)
* I can now confirm that this series of novels are classified as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel "'''Light Novels'''"]. Please ensure you know what this means and keep this in mind when you continue to translate and or edit these novels.

Thank you

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

Talk:Format guideline

2006-08-24T15:13:45Z

Da~Mike: UG cleanup. Topic has been voved to the forum

'''Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.'''

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04 Title Discussion ==
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

'''EDIT''' -- 18:56, 9 May 2006 (GMT)
* I can now confirm that this series of novels are classified as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_novel "'''Light Novels'''"]. Please ensure you know what this means and keep this in mind when you continue to translate and or edit these novels.

Thank you

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

== Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume ==

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an [[Template_talk:V1TOC|example page]], with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

== Templates for common entities ==

== Page names ==

How should we name the pages for the translated chapters? Currently, [[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume2 Chapter 1]] is named differently that all of the other numbered chapters because there is a space between "Chapter" and "1". Rather than just moving the page, I think we should discuss how we want to continue naming pages as more are created.

Discuss at http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 15:21, 25 May 2006 (PDT)

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:19:43Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 */

== Signing Off ==

'''Editors please sign off when you are satisfied that section is finished.

Each section requires a minimum signature of four editors before it can progress.

'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:15, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:45, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter 01 ==

Script is located below.

Editors please sign your signature when the script has reached your satisfaction, when all sections have been signed off, it will be sent on to be processed by the other groups.

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

* [Signature Here]

Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

* [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 15:34, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 16:36, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 18:51, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 20:15, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:52, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

Revision 2 - This section is finished and is ready for Baka-Tsuki pdf release.
The Following Editors Approve:

* [Signature Here]

----

=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

* [Signature Here]

Revision 1 - This section is in satisfactory condition ready for processing.
The following Editors Approve:

* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:39, 21 August 2006 (GMT)
* [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:52, 21 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:58, 21 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 11:21, 21 August 2006 {PDT)
* [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 17:19, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

:*'''This section has been forwarded on to the next stage.'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:43, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

Revision 2 - This section is finished and is ready for Baka-Tsuki pdf release.
The Following Editors Approve:

* [Signature Here]

----

Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

Revision 0.5 - This section has issues that should be considered.
The following Editors Agree:

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:19:12Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 */

== Signing Off ==

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'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:18:52Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 */

== Signing Off ==

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Each section requires a minimum signature of four editors before it can progress.

'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:45, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:18:23Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 */

== Signing Off ==

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*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:16:30Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 21 */ Perfume -> Fragrance

== Signing Off ==

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*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Fragrance!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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----

==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-24T13:15:15Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 19 */ removed inane comment

== Signing Off ==

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----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.

Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I be able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:33:55Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 41 */

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:31:45Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 40 */ I made a really daft change yesterday...

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:29:25Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 36 */

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:27:58Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 */

== Signing Off ==

'''Editors please sign off when you are satisfied that section is finished.

Each section requires a minimum signature of four editors before it can progress.

'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:15, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:45, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:03, 23 August 2006 (GMT) [Please add a translation note for "hamburger" and please decide whether Montmorency's name is "fragrance" or "perfume".]

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:23:34Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 41 */

== Signing Off ==

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*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:15:13Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 40 */

== Signing Off ==

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*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

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As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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----

==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:11:56Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 */

== Signing Off ==

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*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
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*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

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== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:09:00Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 36 */

== Signing Off ==

'''Editors please sign off when you are satisfied that section is finished.

Each section requires a minimum signature of four editors before it can progress.

'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:15, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:45, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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* [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:58, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
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* [[User:Bicube|Bicube]] 16:36, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 18:51, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 20:15, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 20:06, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:03, 23 August 2006 (GMT) [Please add a translation note for "hamburger" and please decide whether Montmorency's name is "fragrance" or "perfume".]

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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----

Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer whirred to life.

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

==== Page 45 ====
(paragraph continues from previous page?)

''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:06:07Z

Da~Mike: /* Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 */

== Signing Off ==

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Each section requires a minimum signature of four editors before it can progress.

'''
----

*Each page is now its own section. This is to aid editing (though it makes the TOC box pretty ugly). Please try to edit individual sections whenever possible (by clicking on the "edit" link on the right side of the page), to minimize the chance of your changes colliding with edits by another contributer. [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:52, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== [[zeroNT:Komgvol01editcontrol|Raw English Translation Available Here]]==

This page is for reference purposes, as a 'control'

It is protected to prevent mishaps.

I didn't press the [Delete] button to test if it was really protected but that feature is still available...
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:15, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

*That's because you have Editorial powers, however not everyone is part of the Baka-Tsuki Editorial Team.

As long as you resist the urge to press it, you should be fine. (^^)b

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:45, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter 01 ==

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=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.0 ===

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=== Back Cover ===

Zero no Tsukaima by Yamaguchi Noboru

"Who are you?"

Hiraga Saito awakes to the pretty girl's question. Looking around, he finds himself in an unknown area where figures dressed as magicians are surrounding himself and the girl in question.

Louise, as she calls herself, explains that she "summoned" him from another world to be her 'familiar spirit.' Saito's apparent confusion about all this grows, especially after she kisses him and claims it's a contract! ''My first Kiss!'' he laments. Even before he has a chance to get angry at this situation, strange symbols appear on his left hand marking him as a familiar!

Searching for a method to return home, Saito must balance that with being forced to live with Louise as her familiar spirit...

So begins Hiraga Saito's comedic life as 'Zero's Familiar!'

=== Insert ===

Written by Yamaguchi Noboru

Born in Feburary, 1972.
His debut was "Canary/This thought on a Song" in ‘Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko.’
His other works consists of "Green Green kane no oto Fantastic," "Tsuppare Arisugawa" (both from Kadokawa Sneaker Bunko), "Green Green kane no oto Stand By Me" (MF bunko J), and many other serialization novel deals (such as “Fujimi Fantagia Battle Royal," "Green Green," "Gonna Be??" "Yukiuta," "Shiritsu Akihabara Gakuen," and "Makai tenshi Gibliel").
He has also worked as a scenario writer for games.

Illustrations by Usatsuka Eiji

A real Osaka native, born and raised. His birthday is the 16th of August.

Currently drawing an illustration while working as an office worker, he has worked on one previous novel called "Doushi sama to issho" (Dengeki bunko).

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.1 ===

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Chapter 1 I'm a familiar spirit

==== Page 12 ====

"Who are you?" the girl asked, intently peering at Saito's face, with the bright blue sky acting as her backdrop.
She seemed to be close to Saito's age and underneath her black mantle, she wore a white blouse and a gray pleated skirt. She knelt down and looked at his face with shock.

''Her face is... Cute.'' Her reddish-brown eyes dance upon the stage of her flawless white skin and strawberry blonde hair.
''She looks kind of like a foreigner. Then again... she probably IS one. A cute, doll-like, foreign girl. Perhaps she’s half-Japanese?''
''But still, that's some kind of school uniform she's wearing, isn’t it? I don't recognize it.''

During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there. He raised his head to take a look around.
Many people wearing black mantles were looking upon him with curiosity.
There, in the distance, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he saw a huge castle with stone walls, just like the ones in those European tour photographs.

''It's like a fantasy.''

==== Page 13 ====


''This is giving me a headache,'' Saito thought, shaking his head.

"Who am I...? I'm Hiraga Saito."

"Where are you from, commoner?"

''Commoner? What do you mean by that?'' Everyone around him had some sort of stick in their hand and wore the same uniform as that girl's.
''Did I get lost in an American school or something?''

"Louise, what are you trying to do, calling a commoner at the Servant Summoning?"
someone asked, and everyone but the girl who was looking at his face started to laugh.

"I... I just made little mistake!"

A girl in front of Saito shouted in a refined voice that carried like a bell,
"What mistake are you talking about? That's your usual."

"Of course! After all, she's Louise the Zero!"
The crowd of people burst into laughter.

It appeared the girl looking into Saito's face was named Louise.

''Either way this is no American school. You won't see those kinds of buildings just anywhere.''

''Could it be a movie set? For filming a movie?'' Saito thought all of a sudden.
''But it's too big to be a movie set. Could this kind of scenery exist in Japan?''

==== Page 14 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

''Or maybe a new theme park? But then, why am I lying down in such a place?''

"Mr. Colbert!"
the girl called Louise shouted. The wall of people divided, revealing a middle-aged man.
Saito thought it funny, because the man looked ridiculous.
He carried a big wooden cane and was wearing a black robe that covered his whole body.

''What kind of a look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane?''
''I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay.''
''But it doesn't seem to have that kind of atmosphere.''
Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. ''What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It's possible.''
''They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town.''
''That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no other explanation for this.''
''I'd better stay quiet, until I know what's going on,'' Saito thought to himself.

The girl, Louise, was saying things like, "Let me try it again," and "Please," while waving her arms wildly.

''It's too bad she's in this weird religious group, especially since she's so cute.''


"What is it, Miss. Vallière?"

"Please! Let me try the summoning one more time!"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 1.2 ===

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* [[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 20:06, 22 August 2006 (PDT)
* [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:03, 23 August 2006 (GMT) [Please add a translation note for "hamburger" and please decide whether Montmorency's name is "fragrance" or "perfume".]

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==== Page 15 ====

''A summoning?''
''What is that? They mentioned it earlier.''

Mr. Colbert, the man wearing the black robe, shook his head.
"That won't be allowed, Miss Vallière."

"Why not, sir?"

"It is the rule. When you are promoted to a second year student, you must summon a familiar spirit.
Which is what you just did."

''A familiar spirit?''
''What is that?''

"Your elemental speciality is decided by the familiar that you
summon. This enables you to advance to the appropriate courses specialized to that element.

You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony.
Whether you like it or not, you don't have any choice but to have him as your familiar spirit."

"But... I've never heard of having a commoner as a familiar spirit!"
Everyone around laughed as Louise said that. She scowled at them,
but the laughter didn't stop.

''The 'Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring?'''
''What is that?''

==== Page 16 ====

''I don't understand. What are they talking about?''
''How did I end up in a place like this.... It has to be a new religious group.''
''It might be possible for me to find an opportunity to run away.''
''I mean really, where is this place?''
''Was I taken to a foreign country?''
''An abduction! I've been abducted!''
''I'm in real trouble,'' thought Saito.

"This is a tradition, Miss Vallière. I can't allow any exceptions, he is..."
The middle-aged man cosplaying as a wizard pointed at Saito.
"He might be a commoner but as long as he was summoned by you,
he must be your familiar spirit. We have never had a human summoned as a familiar spirit in our history,
but the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring takes priority over every rule.
Therefore he must become your familiar spirit."

"You have got to be joking..."
Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

"Well, then. Continue with the ceremony."

"What? With him?"

"Yes, with him. Hurry. The next class will begin any minute.
How long do you think you are going to take for the summoning?
After mistake upon mistake, you have finally managed to summon him.
Hurry and form a contract."

==== Page 17 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page)

Everyone voiced their agreement and began jeering.

Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling her.

''What is it? What is she going to do to me?''

"Hey,"
Louise called Saito.

"Yes?"

"You should be appreciative. It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

''A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?''
''You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.''

Louise closed her eyes as if she had given up.
She waved around a little wooden stick, which was in her hand.

"My name is Louise Françoise Le Blanc de la Vallière. A pentagon, which holds five powers,
bless this humble being, and make him become my familiar spirit,"
she recited, like a sonorous incantation.

She touched Saito's forehead with the wooden stick.
Her lips then slowly drew closer.

''What... What are you doing?!''

==== Page 18 ====

"Just stay still."
Louise said, upset.
Her face got closer.

"Hey, wait. Well, I'm... Well, I'm not ready for this..."

His face gradually shook as he panicked.

"Uh! I told you to stay still!"
Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

"Huh?"

"Mmm..."

Louise's lips touched Saito's.

''What, what is this! This is what that contract means?!''
The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.
''My first kiss! But it was taken by this weird girl in this weird place!''
Saito laid there, paralyzed.

Louise let go of his lips.
"It is done."

==== Page 19 ====

(Illustration -- KISU!)
wtf? lol. --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

==== Page 20 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

''Her face is red. Is she embarrassed by her impudence? What an idiot,'' Saito thought.

"I should be the one embarrassed, not you! You kissed me all of a sudden!"

But Louise completely ignored Saito.

''You kissed me and that is how you act? How rude.''
''Really, who are they?! I'm scared. I want to go home right this minute. I just want to go home and get online,'' Saito thought.
He had just registered himself to a dating site, so he wanted to check his e-mail.

"You failed on The Spell of Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring many times, but you have managed to succeed with the Servant Contract,"
Colbert said happily.

"She was able to make a servant contract, because he is just a commoner."

"If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract."
A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.

Louise scowled at them.
"Don't make a fool out of me! Even if it happens rarely, I can still do things right!"

"You are right, it rarely happens, Louise the Zero."
A girl laughed at Louise, a girl with gorgeous curly hair and freckles on her face.

"Mr. Colbert! Montmorency the Flood has insulted me!"

==== Page 21 ====

"Who are you calling 'the Flood?' I'm Montmorency the Perfume!"

"I've heard that you used to wet the bed like it was flooding, so 'the Flood' suits you better!"

"How dare you, Louise the Zero! What can I say? You are a zero!"

"Watch it! Nobles are to respect each other,"
the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them.

''What are they talking about? A contract? A Servant Contract? ''

At that instant, Saito's body started to get hot.

"Aaah!"
Saito stood up.
"It's hot!"

"It will be over soon, just wait. The Runes of the Spell of Summoning are being engraved,"
Louise said, irritated.

"Don't engrave it! What did you do to my body?!"

''There is nothing I can do, but I can't just lie around quietly. It is unbelievably hot!''

"By the way."

"What?"

==== Page 22 ====

"Do you think it's forgivable for a commoner to use that kind of language before nobles?"

The hot sensation lasted only for a second.
His body rapidly returned to a normal state.

"That was quick..."

The middle-aged cosplaying man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito
and checked the back of his left hand.
There, jumping around were unfamiliar letters.

''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern I have never seen before.''
Saito stared at it and thought, ''if this isn't magic, then what was it?''

"Hummm..."

At this point, Saito really lost it.

"This is a very rare Rune."
The middle-aged wizard said.

"Who are you people?!"
Saito yelled out, but no one reacted.

"Well, let's go back to class, everyone."

The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around and then rose gently into the air.
Saito's jaw dropped in shock.

==== Page 23 ====

''Did... Did he fly? Is he floating in the air?''
''It can't be!''
The others, who looked like students, also floated up in the air all at once.

''It can't be! More of them? One person could float in the air by some trick, but all of them?''
Saito looked for wires or even a crane, but the surrounding area was just a large grassy plain.
There was nothing to suggest any tricks or setups.
Everyone who was floating flew quietly towards the stone-walled castle in the distance.

"Louise, you'd better walk back!"
"She can't fly. She can't even manage levitation."
"That commoner is just what you need!"
the students said, as they flew away.
The only ones left behind were Saito and the girl named Louise.

As soon as it was only the two of them, Louise took a deep breath,
turned toward Saito and yelled,
"Who are you?!"

That made Saito mad. He thought, ''That's my line!''

"Who are you? Where is this place?! Who were all those people?! Why can they fly?!"

==== Page 24 ====
(quotation continued from previous page?)

"What did you do to my body?!"

"I don't know which country you came from but I will explain it to you."

"A country? This is a country? Tokyo is nothing like this!"

"Tokyo? What is that? What country is it in?"

"Japan."

"What? I have never heard of it before."

"Oh please! But why are they flying?! You saw it too! They flew! They all did!"

But Louise took no notice of it at all.
Instead, she seemed to think, "What's wrong with flying?"

"Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

"Mages? What is this place?!"
Saito grabbed Louise's shoulder and yelled.

"This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

"A magic school?"

"I'm a second year student, Louise de la Vallière. I am your master from now on. Remember that!"

==== Page 25 ====

All of Saito's strength disappeared.
He was getting a really unpleasant feeling about the situation.
"Excuse me... Louise-san."

"What?"

"Was I really summoned?"

"I've told you so, so many times. Over and over again. Just give up. I'll give up too.
Why is my familiar spirit a creature that isn't cool at all...
I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore.
At least an eagle or an owl."

"A dragon or griffin? What do you mean?"

"I was just saying that I wish had one of those as my familiar spirit."

"Do they really exist?"

"They do, why?"

"You're kidding me,"
Saito said, and laughed. But Louise wasn't laughing.

"Well, you've probably never seen them before,"
Louise said, with pity in her voice.
She didn't look like she was joking.

==== Page 26 ====

The mages who flew away and the fantasy words suddenly connected.

He felt a chill run down his spine and broke out in a cold sweat.
"I thought maybe... Since they flew, are you people really witches and wizards?"

"Yes we are! If you understand that, let go of my shoulder!
You shouldn't even be talking to me!"

''A dream... This has to be a dream...''
Slowly his strength left him and Saito fell to his knees.

"Louise,"
he said with a weak voice.

"Don't call me by my name."

"Hit me."

"What?"

"Hit me in the head as hard as you can."

"Why?"

"I want to wake up from this dream now. I'll wake up from this dream and get online.
Tonight's dinner is hamburger. My mother mentioned it."

"Get online?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.0 ===

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----

Pages 27-34 to be added

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.1 ===

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==== Page 35 ====

"That's impossible."

"But why...?"

"Because, you've been bound by a contract as my familiar. It doesn't matter if you come from the countryside, or even a completely different world as you've said. Once the bond is established, it cannot be undone."

"You gotta be kidding..."

"Look, I don't like this either! Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

"Well then, send me back."

"Are you saying you're really from another world?"
asked Louise, seemingly still perplexed.

"Yeah."
Saito nodded.

"Show me some proof."

Wincing at the pain where he'd just been kicked, Saito stood up, and opened his bag.

"What's that?"

"A notebook computer,"
replied Saito.

==== Page 36 ====

The surface of the recently-repaired notebook gleamed with reflected light.

"I've certainly never seen something like this. What kind of magic item is it?"

"It's not magic. It's science."

Saito pushed the power button, and the computer came to life with a 'whirr.'

"Uwah! What is that?!"

Louise gave a surprised yelp, as the screen flickered on.

"The notebook screen."

"It's pretty... What element of magic does it use? Wind? Water?"

"Science."

Louise stared at Saito with a blank expression. Clearly she didn't get it.
"So, what kind of element is this 'science?' Is it different from the four elemental powers?"

"Argh, enough already! In any case, it's not magic!"
Saito waved his hands around wildly.

Louise sat on the edge of her bed and dangled her feet. Then shrugging, she spoke with a dispassionate look.
"Hmm. But that's what I don't understand...."

"Why? Is there something like this, in this world too?"

==== Page 37 ====

Louise pouted.
"No, but..."

"Then just believe me! There's nothing to understand!"

Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head.
"All right! I'll believe you!"

"Really?"

Crossing her arms and cocking her head, Louise gave an irritated growl.
"Only because you would've gone on about it if I didn't say so."

"Well, it doesn't matter, as long as you've got it. Now, send me back."

"I told you, that's impossible."

"But why?!"

Louise's face was etched with discomfort as she answered Saito.
"That's because, there's no spell that can connect this world to your world."

"Then how did I end up here?"

"I don't know how!"

Saito and Louise glared at each other.

"Listen, I'm being completely honest when I say there's no such spell. Most people don't even know that another world exists."

==== Page 38 ====

"It obviously does, if I'm here!"

"The spell of Summoning is used to call living beings from within Halkeginia. Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned. This is actually the first instance that I've seen a person summoned."

"Stop talking about it like you're not involved. In that case, cast that spell on me one more time."

"Why?"

"It might return me to my world."

Looking discernably perplexed, Louise tilted her head to one side.

"...That won't work. The spell of Summoning is strictly a one-way spell. No incantation of any kind exists to return a summoned familiar back to where it was brought from."

"Whatever, just try it."

"It's impossible. And I can't even cast it now."

"What? Why?"

"...Using The spell of Summoning again is..."

"Yeah?"

"...Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned has died."

"Say what?"

==== Page 39 ====
(paragraph continued from previous page?)

Saito's body froze.

"Would you like to die?"

"Err... I'll pass."
He hung his head.
His eyes trailed down to the runes that had been inscribed on his left hand.

"Oh, that?"

"Yeah."

"That's like a stamp that says you're my familiar."

Louise stood up and crossed her arms.
If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles, and not too tall with a height of 155cm.
Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this wasn't Earth. No matter how much he wanted to go back, he couldn't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.

"...Yeah, all right. For the meanwhile, I guess I'll be your familiar."

"Come again?"

"What, you got a problem with that?"

----

=== Chapter 01 - Part 2.2 ===

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----

==== Page 40 ====

"I see you're still not used to formal speech. It should be, 'Is there something you wish to address, master?'"
corrected Louise, one finger raised as if lecturing. The gesture was cute, but the tone was quite strict.

"But um, what exactly does a familiar do?"
asked Saito. Of course, he had seen ravens and owls appear as familiars in anime involving magicians. But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant.

"Firstly, a familiar is able to grant its master an enhancement in vision and hearing."

"Like how?"

"That means what the familiar sees, the master can also see."

"Oh."

"But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you. I can't see anything."

"Yeah, but like that matters,"
Saito said off-handedly.

"And also, a familiar will retrieve items that its master desires. For instance, reagents."

"Reagents?"

"A catalyst you use when casting certain spells. Something like sulphur, or moss..."

"Uh-huh..."

==== Page 41 ====

"But you won't ever find me stuff like that, will you? Considering you don't even know what kind of reagents there are."

"Nope."

Louise frowned irritably, but continued talking.
"And this is most important of all... A familiar exists to protect its master! The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..."

"Since I'm human..."

"...A powerful magical beast would almost always defeat its enemies, but I don't think you could even beat a raven."

"Shut up."

"That's why I'm only making you do things I'm fairly sure you can do: laundry, cleaning, and other miscellaneous tasks."

"Don't insult me. I'll be sure to find a way to get back home!"

"Yes, yes. In fact, I'll be glad if you do. Because when you return to your world, I'll be able to summon a new familiar."

"Why you..."

"Right then, all this talking has made me sleepy,"
said Louise with a great yawn.

"Where do I sleep?"

==== Page 42 ====

Louise pointed to the floor.

"I'm not some dog or cat, you know."

"But there's nowhere else. And there's only one bed."
She threw him a blanket.

She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse.

One by one, the buttons came undone.

Soon she was down to her underwear. Saito blushed.
"Wh-wh-what are you doing?!"

Louise answered as if it was the most obvious thing.
"I'm going to sleep, so I'm getting changed."

"Do it somewhere else where I can't see you!"

"Why?"

"Because! It makes the situation awkward! Seriously!"

"It's not awkward at all."

"Is that because you're a mage? You're okay with doing that in plain sight of a guy?"

"A guy? Who? I don't need to think anything of being watched by my familiar."

''What the heck. That's exactly how you'd treat a dog or cat.'' Saito grabbed the blanket, threw it over his head, and turned away.

==== Page 43 ====

First of all, he decided to revoke all and any thoughts he previously had about her being cute. She just really got on his nerves. ''A girl like her, a mage? Yeah right.''

"Oh, and these. Wash them for me tomorrow."
Several items came flying over to land softly beside him.
He picked them up, wondering what they were.

A lacy camisole, and matching panties. White, too. ''What exquisite and delicate pieces'', Saito thought as his face began to flush. He clenched the items tightly as a mix of indignation and delight welled up.

"Why do I have to-- Your underwear?! Wash them?! Frankly, I'm both flattered and offended!"

He bolted upright, without even realising he'd done so. Louise was pulling a large nightgown over her head. And in the dim light thrown off by the lamp, he could see the outline of her figure. While he couldn't make out any other details, it didn't seem as though she was embarrassed. More like she seemed disgruntled (note: originally 'kuyashii', but I toyed with various synonyms), like a boy who'd just been rejected.

"Who do you think is going to support you? Who do you think is going to give you food? And just whose room are you in?"

"Uhh..."

==== Page 44 ====

"You're my familiar, right? Laundry, cleaning, other menial tasks - they're naturally your jobs."

Saito pulled the blanket over his head again.

''This girl is hopeless,'' he thought. ''She just doesn't see me as a guy at all.''

''I want to go home. I miss my room. I miss my parents.''

The feeling of homesickness was overwhelming.

''...When will I able to go back?''

''Is there even a way to go back?''

''I wonder if my family is worried about me right now...''

''Anyway, I need to find some way of returning...''

''What should I do? Should I try running away from here? But then what?''

''Maybe I'll try asking someone. But from what Louise told me earlier, nobody even knows another world exists, so there's no way they'll believe me.''

''No, I need to think about this critically. In any case, struggling won't get me anywhere. I don't have any clues, and even if I escaped from here, there's no guarantee that I'll even find a way back.''

''I don't even have relatives on this world. There's nobody I can rely on, except for a conceited girl named Louise.''

''Guess there's no choice. For now, I'll be her familiar. At least she said she'll keep me fed.''

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''It'll be tough, since I'm not much more than a familiar to her.''

''Sure, she's a bit arrogant, but at least she's fairly cute. I suppose I can just imagine I made a girlfriend. Someone from the dating site I've finally managed to meet. Treat it as if I came overseas just to see her. Or I came as a foreign student. Actually, that's better. Yeah, that's what I'll think. Hah, I'm so simple like that. It's great.''

''Okay,'' thought Saito. ''It's not like I've been stranded on a deserted island. Moping will achieve nothing.''

''I'll live as a familiar, and in the process, I'll look for a way to return home.''

Now that his plan was set, he felt noticeably sleepy.

No matter the situation, Saito's amazing adaptablity has always saved him. Where anyone else would've panicked and crumbled, Saito came through thanks to his fluid personality.

Louise snapped her fingers, and the glow of the lamp died out.

''The lamp is magical too? I guess that way there's no need for electricity,'' Saito reasoned.

A shroud of darkness descended on the room, enveloping it in shadows.

Outside the window, the two moons shone down mysteriously.

''Mother,'' Saito thought. ''I've ended up in a world of actual magicians. I don't think I can go to school for a while. I won't be able to study either. Please forgive me.''

And so began Saito's life as a familiar.

Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

2006-08-23T12:03:00Z

Da~Mike: /* Page 20 */ removed redundant log