Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

User:Kumarei

2006-05-09T15:20:16Z

Kumarei: I see a red name and I want to paint it blue...

I'm a college student. I'm studying East Asian Studies, Computer Science, and Cognitive Science, and am interested in becoming a writer (a bit of an odd combination, I'm aware).

As such, I tend to be firm about whether a sentence conveys the original meaning, while at the same time searching for something that sounds just a little bit better.

My hobbies are reading, watching anime, and playing games.

Talk:Format guideline

2006-05-09T14:28:26Z

Kumarei: /* Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! */

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==
For discussion of issues solely related to Chapter 1, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|the discussion page for Chapter 1]].

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==

==== Hyperion ====

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

==== Once it's all over, a post-mortem will be held to review and prepare for further developments. ====

Post-mortem? That sort of suggests a death, although I know what is trying to be said, but it might give the wrong meaning to other people. I wonder if there is another word we could substitute this with? Would anyone like to give a suggestion? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:44, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

In the military, they use the term "After Action Report" (abbr. AAR). --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:10, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Debriefing? --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Review. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:22, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Review is already said in the sentence, but we could change that. Out of which do you think Haruhi would be the most likely to say? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 05:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

To be honest, I think "debriefing" fits in very well in the sentence. It also suits the quasi-militaristic secret superspy-agent-hero-fantasy world that the SOS Brigade has its roots in. "Once it's all over, a debriefing will be held to review and prepare for further developments." See? It looks good. Kudos to '''velocity7''' for ''le mot juste''.--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 05:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

For this material, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|the discussion page for Chapter 5]].

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04, Title Discussion ==

While this is something I have noticed since the first visited this site, I never raised this issue as I had presumed that either a translator or an editor would correct it, yet so far, no one has.
The issue I would like to bring to everyone's attention (particularly translators and editors) is the current title of volume 4: '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi'''.

The instant I read that sentence, I had a nagging feeling that this was not an appropriate translation as it did not read well, by which I mean the sentence did not sound correct. To investigate further, I looked up the only two kanji used in the title of volume 4 (that differs from book to book), which are these two characters: 消失 (read as shou shitsu). After looking through all the Japanese dictionaries that I own and checking with numerous online kanji dictionaries, the characters 消失 were consistently defined as "disappearance" or "die out" as opposed to "vanishing".

This, I believe, turned out to be more beneficial for translating purposes as well. Here's why:
* The word "Disappear" is synonymous with "Vanish"
* The substitution of "Vanishing" with the word "Disappearance" in the title sentence is grammatically stronger.
==> "Vanishing" is synonymous with "Disappearing", yet both do not hold the same definition as "Disappearance".

==> Simply put, it is to do with tenses and time. "Vanishing" or "disappearing" are in present tense (or in the process of) whereas "disappearance" is either past tense or future-perfect tense. Here are some examples to distinguish the words apart:

e.g.1. "Now I shall perform my vanishing act!" the devious magician leered.

e.g.2. As the vitamin C tablet fizzed and skated across the surface of the water, I could see it disappearing before my very eyes. (Wow chemistry...)

e.g.3. No one I knew could offer any clue regarding the disappearance of the infamous troublemaker; Suzumiya Haruhi.

Now that I've explained it, here are the two versions of the title sentence for volume 4:
* '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''Original translation''

* '''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''My suggested translation''

As I was previously informed that we need to reach a general consensus on a "major-minor" change such as this before anything may be done, please post your opinion regarding the possible change of the title of volume 4 (which all in all, is still very minor).

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:44, 7 May 2006 (GMT) (I must have spent so long trying to ensure this post was void of any errors that the site logged me out! The IP stated in the change log is mine if you must know)

Looking up 消失 in the dictionary gave me both disappear and vanish, but I have to agree that "The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi" sounds a little better. Unless there's some specific reason in the text of the volume (which is kind of hard to say, since it hasn't been translated yet), or unless "The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi" is a generally accepted translation, I would go with that one.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 17:02, 8 May 2006 (EST)

All the other titles are "The [abstract noun] of Suzumiya Haruhi" so disappearance fits in better.
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:01, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Disappearance 賛成!

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 16:14, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
For those of you who don't like kanji, I've done the work for you: 賛成 = sansei = agreement/approval/support/favour
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

Most of the translation seems to have been done using plain text so far, with a few instances of capitals when somebody is yelling (e.g. "THAT'S WHY I AM WORKING SO HARD!!" in v01c01, "KYAA!!!" in v01c03, though notably it's instead "Kyaaa!!!" and "Kyaaa~~!!" in c02). However, I just was reading over the Volume 1 prologue and noticed that someone has used italics to emphisize some of Kyon's commentary. The italics are pretty appropriate as they are used in the prologue, but they bring up an issue of consistancy.

Are we going to use HTML (or rather Wiki) markup to make the text look nice? How about capitalized text? What are the style conventions we should use for each of those? Perhaps most importantly, what if any font or text styling changes are used in the original Japanese text to show emphasis?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:46, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.

I would leave it to their explanation, cause I have NO idea if it's better or not...sorry.

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Italics to indicate Kyon's "inner speech" would be a good idea I think.
I've watched a few episodes of the Haruhi anime and the fansubbing group a.f.k. helped distinguished the difference between Kyon's thoughts and his words. However, unlike the anime, since the novel is generally void of pictures, using italics or bold characters to indicate that Kyon is in fact musing would be incredibly useful. I would suggest italics as using bold font tends to indicate the importance of the text that is marked as bold, such as the '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!''' in the edit screen that I'm currently typing in. Capitals in essence, have the same effect but tends to connotate passion, by which I mean a strong emotion when stressing a point or issue.

Thus, I think capitals would suit situations where the characters are in dismay such as: "KYAA!!!"
The original translation (or so I would think) of "Kyaaa~~!!" is something to do with the Japanese language of associating the symbol "~" as a means to drag the sound of a word out. So if something wanted to say "Bye" but drag it, the typical English method of doing this would be to type repeated letters such as: "Byyeeeee" whereas in Japanese, it would tend to be written as "Bye~~".

Conclusion: use of italics, bold and capital font as would be very helpful and may enhance reading.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:35, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

<cite>
Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.
</cite>

Yup yup. that was before we had the format guidelines.
oh well, we bringing the early chapters up to standard so its getting there. (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:45, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:I take it 'use "Bye~~" instead of "Byyeeeeee" for dragged sounds' will be our standard here? Or the other way round?

:Hopefully the italising of Kyon's inner commentaries (that don't leak out) won't be too hard. Actually, which way do we treat those commentaries that do leak out but don't have explicit speech marks surrounding them? Yeah, I'm happy for the (''conservative'' use of) Markups, but uncertain on italising Kyon's commentaries - I think it's fine leaving that in plain text and let the reader figure out what's what.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:08, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah. No, not like that Psieye. It's the other way round; use '''"Byeeeee"''' instead of "Bye~~". The reason for this, as I may have mentioned already, is due to the fact that the use of '''~''' is generally not recognised to have the effect of dragging the sound of a word in English, even though it does so in the Japanese language.

For the sake of clarification, it would help to differentiate Kyon's inner speech and his actual dialogue. In my opinion, the inner speech that doesn't leak out should be considered as the first-person narrative, thus should remain in plan text.

Guessing games as to what Kyon is actually saying or saying to himself mentally may be entertaining for some but I personally feel that it is some what bothersome to figure out whether he actually said something in response or talked to himself mentally in response, while letting the person he's talking to blab on (normally Haruhi). I don't know whether I'm the only who has to do this, since I often find myself re-reading sections of the chapter at lest 3 times before I can conclusively decide how Kyon chose to respond.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:48, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

I don't understand why the editors should be able to decide what's Kyon's speech and what isn't, when the author obviously decided to leave it somewhat ambiguous. And are the editors any more qualified than the readers in deciding? I don't think it's our place to try to change the text so that it makes more sense than the original.

The author does use quotes for Kyon at some points, and the way that he doesn't quote, the type of things he doesn't quote, etc. are consistant enough to make it a part of the story's style. Should we be messing with it?

Also, I'm not sure about "Byeeeee", at least in this instance. The sound if you draged out bye naturally would be more of "Bye-eeee", with a switch in the intonation that isn't suggested in "Byeeeee". Basically, "Byeeeee" looks weird and gives a mental reading different than the actual pronounciation, so I think "Bye~~" works a bit better. It isn't common English, but is it common enough usage in the manga world to use? Not sure.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:35, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Again, this is a matter of stylistic preference. I personally have never seen either instances of "Bye-eeee" or "Bye~~" in English novels before, yet the use of "Byeeee" does appear irregularly in young adult fiction or children's books. However, it would be the height of pomp to assume that the tiny fraction of books that I've read, out of the hundreds of millions of books out there in the world, follow the accepted standard of writing. But then, what is the accepted standard of writing? There are so many variations in the way which one could write to express themselves that conforming to an accepted standard would be a similar principle as the loss of freedom in speech. Anyhow, I digress.

I would generally assume that people who read these novels may not be familiar with the many things associated with Japanese culture. However, that in itself may be a sort of fallacy since the main reason most of us were attracted to this series of novels was due to a Japanese cartoon! Moreover, simply looking at the numerous illustrations present throughout the books, it becomes clear that the general audience is not the mature group of society (which may include us editors due to age) but it appears to be aimed towards the teenage audience. This becomes even more apparent by the style of writing that the author has employed. Examples of books aimed at mature readers (or at least in terms of writing style) would be Isaac Asimov’s books or even Tolkien's books. They were hardly what I call a teenager's book and are difficult to read at first without a dictionary.

Basically, I have little doubt that all the editors (including myself) have any wish whatsoever to adapt the original source text so much as so that we twist the original writing style or nature of the story. Since many of us editors do not possess the books at hand, we tend to speculate on certain details, which drive us to raise certain points for discussion. If however, we know that a style that we suggested or speculated was not originally used, we would normally dismiss our previous suggestions and carry on, whilst noting the author's style when further editing and or translating. Yet, there are some cases where we choose to adapt certain aspects of the novel for the sake of clarity rather than for any personal reason. An example of this would be our decision to translate "shinjin" or "heisa kuukan" into "avatar" or "sealed reality" respectively. The translations suggested, as far as we have analysed, fully represent the original novel's definition of those words. Moreover, the English translations that we have chosen to use appear to connotate the nature of a "shinjin" or "heisa kuukan" more succinctly.

In conclusion, I believe the editors here only raise issues for discussion due to the resulting English translations having a lack of clarity or because it may seem overloaded with borrowed Japanese words or burdened with a writing style that may seem difficult to comprehend.

If you possess the original novel, then by all means, please provide excerpts of the source material as a basis for argument as this would bring numerous topics to a consensus far quicker.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:43, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

Of course. I can easily understand about using "byeeee" and other things (although not my personal choice, I think "byeeee" would be acceptable), and I'm not arguing with your point for the most part. The one thing that I would fairly strongly argue against is using italics for sentences that Kyon speaks but that are not put into quotation marks in the original story.

For those who are looking for the original novels, there's currently a torrent of all of them on Hongfire.
http://hongfire.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=55083&d=1144733965
http://hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?p=785428

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

== Proposal to revised the number of Translators per volume ==

Hello, there are more Translators now, and it seems to me that we should revise how many translators can work on any one volume,
So I think we should revised this guideline and allow three Translators to work on a volume,

We have more then enought active Editors, who are very efficient so any doubts about inconsistancies are minimal in my opinion.

comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:05, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Mmm, worth a try I'd say. Now that we have better tracking of who translates what and a functional "Editors discuss matters to come to standardised decisions" atmosphere in place, worth testing it out. Though I'd still be wary - the more people on the project, the greater the administrative and organisational prowess needed (and coming up with large-scale procedures that don't bog down into uber legalese etc is hard).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:02, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

A simple phrase might describe the potential result of recruiting more translators (even editors I'd imagine):
"Three's company but four's a crowd."

What I mean by this is that having too many people might increase the number of debates due to conflicting opinions regarding translations of the original text. The translators have far greater "power" in terms of the decision making of how the original Japanese text should be interpreted, much like how many people can look at the same picture in an art gallery and interpret its meaning in multitudes of ways. Editors on the other hand, can't do such a thing as their source material tends to be the result of the translators' work.

Basically, I completely agree with Psieye. ^_~

As long as the translators can reach agreements on their styles of interpretation, then having more translators should be highly beneficial to this project.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

Another thing I'd like to note is that, some of the volumes have chapters which chain together (for example, volume 1). On the other hand, other volumes (such as volume 8) have standalone chapters which are meant to be read on their own. Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then volumes like say, volume 3, could have as many as 5 or 6 translators all working at the same time. And since the chapters are all not connected together (theoretically?), this would make it easier on translators to some extent.

Of course, Kyon's infamous narrative style does need to be properly shared by all.

--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 22:08, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes you are correct, Volume 03 chapters are individual stories. It has already been decided that on volume 03, that all the translators are allowed to register one chapter.

Besides 03, 05 (is undecided yet. possibility is allow one translator to a "pair". Prologue & a corrosponding chapter), 06 & 08, the other chapters in the remaining volumes are more or less connected, and what i'am proposing is allowing more then two translators per volume, This means while the maximum of half a volume for any one translator, the volume will effectively split into three sections. So for example, 8 chapters are in one volume, one translator can register four of them, while two other translators can still register for two each.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:00, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

I've seen Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan translated several ways in the first and second novels.

Book 1 Ch. 2 - The Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Bring More Excitement to the World

Book 1 Epilogue - Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Make the World More Exciting

Book 2 Prologue - Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade

Which, if any, are we going to use for a standard translation. As the name of the club the story revolves around, I think we should stick to one translation.

--[[User:SlashZero|SlashZero]] 16:34, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah, that's a good point, i agree we should decide on a standardlized term.

Personally I do like:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

It seems to me the best one, plus it fits the "SOS" bit

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:51, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, that is the one I like least, as the "Suzumiya Hiruhi's Brigade" part is just tacked on the end and it doesn't flow at all well. I really do not think we should contort the translation just to get something with the letters S, O and S. An anonymous contributor changed it in a few places to that version a couple days ago and I reverted the changes (making the usage in Volume 3 consistant with v01c02 while I was at it). I think the way I laid out the naming section in v01c02 should demonstrate how the "SOS" abbreviation came from. If it seems necessary, we could repeat that in each of the other novels wherever the club name first gets explained or even put it in a translator's note.

:As for the other two, I do not have a very strong opinion. Perhaps a translator could weigh in on how they think the correct meaning can best be stated?

:I'll go remove the version of this question I put on [[Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2]], or rather, replace it with a link here. This really is a project-wide issue.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:41, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Despite it being "tacked on" as you mentioned Blckknght, I have to say that I am in favour of the current translation that Onizuka-gto suggested (i.e. ''Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade''). This is probably mainly due to the fact that the translated version still fits the original acronym used in the novel. Moreover, based on my limited knowledge of Japanese, the current translation actually mirrors how odd the original sentence (that represents the acronym) sounds like.

A literal translation without considering the Japanese grammar would be: ''Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly''. Considering the obvious difference between English and Japanese, it would sound more like this: ''Suzumiya Haruhi's brigade of enjoying in order to uplift the world greatly''.

Based on that fact, I would think that the current translation best suits how silly the original name is for more reasons than the very meaning of the sentence (i.e. the odd sentence, words used and that it could be made into an acronym).

I very much think that we should stick with the current translation of but perhaps modify it slightly to make it seem a little more coherent. Here's my suggestion (please note the colon):

* '''Save our world by Overloading it with fun'':'' Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade'''.

Hope that helps.

Oh and if you want to check, here's the original kanji (or so I think): 世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼みやハルヒの団

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

lol.
Sneaky.

I don't think it need anymore modification, that phrase i mentioned eariler in my post, is in my opinion fine as it is.
I think adding that colon will just make it more confusing when they see the abbraviated version.

let me put this in prospective, I think it's best to attempt to find the most suitable translated term that will easily fit the "SOS" part of the name. within good grammatical English.

When you think about it with those context you will see that:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

Is the better of the three.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:13, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

It has become apparent to me that some user wish to contribute portion of translated script, but on the other hand also do not wish to continue the chapter or be a project translator.
This is the case of [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] as many attempts to contact has resulted in no response and i can only conclude that s/he does not wish to join the Project Translator Team, at leased other users such as [[user:Hanunako|Harunako]] have given us notice as to how long they will be inactive and when s/he will planning to return to work on the project.

At the moment [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] has only registered Volume 03, "boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi" which is a single story chapter thus will not disturb the rest of the volume by her/his absents, there might be still sometime for [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] to reply but i do not have any high hopes for such a situation.
However there is a real possibility that If a user contributes on a chapter that has connection chapters before a project translators does, they will register as usual, contributes and then never be heard again.
This is a problem because effectively they will tie up a volume, as by guideline rules only two translators are allowed per volume.

What I propose is that if a portion of script has been contributed to a chapter that has yet been signed up by a Project Translator, then their names will be shown on the corrosponding chapters to give credit.

But we will also allow a Project Translator to register for that chapters, in which case we will no longer accept partial translated scripts for.

Comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 04:16, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Format guideline

2006-05-09T14:25:27Z

Kumarei: /* Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! */

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==
For discussion of issues solely related to Chapter 1, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|the discussion page for Chapter 1]].

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==

==== Hyperion ====

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

==== Once it's all over, a post-mortem will be held to review and prepare for further developments. ====

Post-mortem? That sort of suggests a death, although I know what is trying to be said, but it might give the wrong meaning to other people. I wonder if there is another word we could substitute this with? Would anyone like to give a suggestion? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:44, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

In the military, they use the term "After Action Report" (abbr. AAR). --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:10, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Debriefing? --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Review. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:22, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Review is already said in the sentence, but we could change that. Out of which do you think Haruhi would be the most likely to say? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 05:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

To be honest, I think "debriefing" fits in very well in the sentence. It also suits the quasi-militaristic secret superspy-agent-hero-fantasy world that the SOS Brigade has its roots in. "Once it's all over, a debriefing will be held to review and prepare for further developments." See? It looks good. Kudos to '''velocity7''' for ''le mot juste''.--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 05:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

For this material, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|the discussion page for Chapter 5]].

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04, Title Discussion ==

While this is something I have noticed since the first visited this site, I never raised this issue as I had presumed that either a translator or an editor would correct it, yet so far, no one has.
The issue I would like to bring to everyone's attention (particularly translators and editors) is the current title of volume 4: '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi'''.

The instant I read that sentence, I had a nagging feeling that this was not an appropriate translation as it did not read well, by which I mean the sentence did not sound correct. To investigate further, I looked up the only two kanji used in the title of volume 4 (that differs from book to book), which are these two characters: 消失 (read as shou shitsu). After looking through all the Japanese dictionaries that I own and checking with numerous online kanji dictionaries, the characters 消失 were consistently defined as "disappearance" or "die out" as opposed to "vanishing".

This, I believe, turned out to be more beneficial for translating purposes as well. Here's why:
* The word "Disappear" is synonymous with "Vanish"
* The substitution of "Vanishing" with the word "Disappearance" in the title sentence is grammatically stronger.
==> "Vanishing" is synonymous with "Disappearing", yet both do not hold the same definition as "Disappearance".

==> Simply put, it is to do with tenses and time. "Vanishing" or "disappearing" are in present tense (or in the process of) whereas "disappearance" is either past tense or future-perfect tense. Here are some examples to distinguish the words apart:

e.g.1. "Now I shall perform my vanishing act!" the devious magician leered.

e.g.2. As the vitamin C tablet fizzed and skated across the surface of the water, I could see it disappearing before my very eyes. (Wow chemistry...)

e.g.3. No one I knew could offer any clue regarding the disappearance of the infamous troublemaker; Suzumiya Haruhi.

Now that I've explained it, here are the two versions of the title sentence for volume 4:
* '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''Original translation''

* '''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''My suggested translation''

As I was previously informed that we need to reach a general consensus on a "major-minor" change such as this before anything may be done, please post your opinion regarding the possible change of the title of volume 4 (which all in all, is still very minor).

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:44, 7 May 2006 (GMT) (I must have spent so long trying to ensure this post was void of any errors that the site logged me out! The IP stated in the change log is mine if you must know)

Looking up 消失 in the dictionary gave me both disappear and vanish, but I have to agree that "The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi" sounds a little better. Unless there's some specific reason in the text of the volume (which is kind of hard to say, since it hasn't been translated yet), or unless "The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi" is a generally accepted translation, I would go with that one.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 17:02, 8 May 2006 (EST)

All the other titles are "The [abstract noun] of Suzumiya Haruhi" so disappearance fits in better.
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:01, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Disappearance 賛成!

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 16:14, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
For those of you who don't like kanji, I've done the work for you: 賛成 = sansei = agreement/approval/support/favour
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: ''sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well''. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

Most of the translation seems to have been done using plain text so far, with a few instances of capitals when somebody is yelling (e.g. "THAT'S WHY I AM WORKING SO HARD!!" in v01c01, "KYAA!!!" in v01c03, though notably it's instead "Kyaaa!!!" and "Kyaaa~~!!" in c02). However, I just was reading over the Volume 1 prologue and noticed that someone has used italics to emphisize some of Kyon's commentary. The italics are pretty appropriate as they are used in the prologue, but they bring up an issue of consistancy.

Are we going to use HTML (or rather Wiki) markup to make the text look nice? How about capitalized text? What are the style conventions we should use for each of those? Perhaps most importantly, what if any font or text styling changes are used in the original Japanese text to show emphasis?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:46, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.

I would leave it to their explanation, cause I have NO idea if it's better or not...sorry.

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Italics to indicate Kyon's "inner speech" would be a good idea I think.
I've watched a few episodes of the Haruhi anime and the fansubbing group a.f.k. helped distinguished the difference between Kyon's thoughts and his words. However, unlike the anime, since the novel is generally void of pictures, using italics or bold characters to indicate that Kyon is in fact musing would be incredibly useful. I would suggest italics as using bold font tends to indicate the importance of the text that is marked as bold, such as the '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!''' in the edit screen that I'm currently typing in. Capitals in essence, have the same effect but tends to connotate passion, by which I mean a strong emotion when stressing a point or issue.

Thus, I think capitals would suit situations where the characters are in dismay such as: "KYAA!!!"
The original translation (or so I would think) of "Kyaaa~~!!" is something to do with the Japanese language of associating the symbol "~" as a means to drag the sound of a word out. So if something wanted to say "Bye" but drag it, the typical English method of doing this would be to type repeated letters such as: "Byyeeeee" whereas in Japanese, it would tend to be written as "Bye~~".

Conclusion: use of italics, bold and capital font as would be very helpful and may enhance reading.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:35, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

<cite>
Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.
</cite>

Yup yup. that was before we had the format guidelines.
oh well, we bringing the early chapters up to standard so its getting there. (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:45, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:I take it 'use "Bye~~" instead of "Byyeeeeee" for dragged sounds' will be our standard here? Or the other way round?

:Hopefully the italising of Kyon's inner commentaries (that don't leak out) won't be too hard. Actually, which way do we treat those commentaries that do leak out but don't have explicit speech marks surrounding them? Yeah, I'm happy for the (''conservative'' use of) Markups, but uncertain on italising Kyon's commentaries - I think it's fine leaving that in plain text and let the reader figure out what's what.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:08, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah. No, not like that Psieye. It's the other way round; use '''"Byeeeee"''' instead of "Bye~~". The reason for this, as I may have mentioned already, is due to the fact that the use of '''~''' is generally not recognised to have the effect of dragging the sound of a word in English, even though it does so in the Japanese language.

For the sake of clarification, it would help to differentiate Kyon's inner speech and his actual dialogue. In my opinion, the inner speech that doesn't leak out should be considered as the first-person narrative, thus should remain in plan text.

Guessing games as to what Kyon is actually saying or saying to himself mentally may be entertaining for some but I personally feel that it is some what bothersome to figure out whether he actually said something in response or talked to himself mentally in response, while letting the person he's talking to blab on (normally Haruhi). I don't know whether I'm the only who has to do this, since I often find myself re-reading sections of the chapter at lest 3 times before I can conclusively decide how Kyon chose to respond.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:48, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

I don't understand why the editors should be able to decide what's Kyon's speech and what isn't, when the author obviously decided to leave it somewhat ambiguous. And are the editors any more qualified than the readers in deciding? I don't think it's our place to try to change the text so that it makes more sense than the original.

The author does use quotes for Kyon at some points, and the way that he doesn't quote, the type of things he doesn't quote, etc. are consistant enough to make it a part of the story's style. Should we be messing with it?

Also, I'm not sure about "Byeeeee", at least in this instance. The sound if you draged out bye naturally would be more of "Bye-eeee", with a switch in the intonation that isn't suggested in "Byeeeee". Basically, "Byeeeee" looks weird and gives a mental reading different than the actual pronounciation, so I think "Bye~~" works a bit better. It isn't common English, but is it common enough usage in the manga world to use? Not sure.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:35, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Again, this is a matter of stylistic preference. I personally have never seen either instances of "Bye-eeee" or "Bye~~" in English novels before, yet the use of "Byeeee" does appear irregularly in young adult fiction or children's books. However, it would be the height of pomp to assume that the tiny fraction of books that I've read, out of the hundreds of millions of books out there in the world, follow the accepted standard of writing. But then, what is the accepted standard of writing? There are so many variations in the way which one could write to express themselves that conforming to an accepted standard would be a similar principle as the loss of freedom in speech. Anyhow, I digress.

I would generally assume that people who read these novels may not be familiar with the many things associated with Japanese culture. However, that in itself may be a sort of fallacy since the main reason most of us were attracted to this series of novels was due to a Japanese cartoon! Moreover, simply looking at the numerous illustrations present throughout the books, it becomes clear that the general audience is not the mature group of society (which may include us editors due to age) but it appears to be aimed towards the teenage audience. This becomes even more apparent by the style of writing that the author has employed. Examples of books aimed at mature readers (or at least in terms of writing style) would be Isaac Asimov’s books or even Tolkien's books. They were hardly what I call a teenager's book and are difficult to read at first without a dictionary.

Basically, I have little doubt that all the editors (including myself) have any wish whatsoever to adapt the original source text so much as so that we twist the original writing style or nature of the story. Since many of us editors do not possess the books at hand, we tend to speculate on certain details, which drive us to raise certain points for discussion. If however, we know that a style that we suggested or speculated was not originally used, we would normally dismiss our previous suggestions and carry on, whilst noting the author's style when further editing and or translating. Yet, there are some cases where we choose to adapt certain aspects of the novel for the sake of clarity rather than for any personal reason. An example of this would be our decision to translate "shinjin" or "heisa kuukan" into "avatar" or "sealed reality" respectively. The translations suggested, as far as we have analysed, fully represent the original novel's definition of those words. Moreover, the English translations that we have chosen to use appear to connotate the nature of a "shinjin" or "heisa kuukan" more succinctly.

In conclusion, I believe the editors here only raise issues for discussion due to the resulting English translations having a lack of clarity or because it may seem overloaded with borrowed Japanese words or burdened with a writing style that may seem difficult to comprehend.

If you possess the original novel, then by all means, please provide excerpts of the source material as a basis for argument as this would bring numerous topics to a consensus far quicker.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:43, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

Of course. I can easily understand about using "byeeee" and other things (although not my personal choice, I think "byeeee" would be acceptable), and I'm not arguing with your point for the most part. I'm specifically arguing the point of using italics for sentences that Kyon speaks but that are not put into quotation marks in the original story.

For those who are looking for the original novels, there's currently a torrent of all of them on Hongfire.
http://hongfire.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=55083&d=1144733965
http://hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?p=785428

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

== Proposal to revised the number of Translators per volume ==

Hello, there are more Translators now, and it seems to me that we should revise how many translators can work on any one volume,
So I think we should revised this guideline and allow three Translators to work on a volume,

We have more then enought active Editors, who are very efficient so any doubts about inconsistancies are minimal in my opinion.

comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:05, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Mmm, worth a try I'd say. Now that we have better tracking of who translates what and a functional "Editors discuss matters to come to standardised decisions" atmosphere in place, worth testing it out. Though I'd still be wary - the more people on the project, the greater the administrative and organisational prowess needed (and coming up with large-scale procedures that don't bog down into uber legalese etc is hard).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:02, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

A simple phrase might describe the potential result of recruiting more translators (even editors I'd imagine):
"Three's company but four's a crowd."

What I mean by this is that having too many people might increase the number of debates due to conflicting opinions regarding translations of the original text. The translators have far greater "power" in terms of the decision making of how the original Japanese text should be interpreted, much like how many people can look at the same picture in an art gallery and interpret its meaning in multitudes of ways. Editors on the other hand, can't do such a thing as their source material tends to be the result of the translators' work.

Basically, I completely agree with Psieye. ^_~

As long as the translators can reach agreements on their styles of interpretation, then having more translators should be highly beneficial to this project.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

Another thing I'd like to note is that, some of the volumes have chapters which chain together (for example, volume 1). On the other hand, other volumes (such as volume 8) have standalone chapters which are meant to be read on their own. Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then volumes like say, volume 3, could have as many as 5 or 6 translators all working at the same time. And since the chapters are all not connected together (theoretically?), this would make it easier on translators to some extent.

Of course, Kyon's infamous narrative style does need to be properly shared by all.

--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 22:08, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes you are correct, Volume 03 chapters are individual stories. It has already been decided that on volume 03, that all the translators are allowed to register one chapter.

Besides 03, 05 (is undecided yet. possibility is allow one translator to a "pair". Prologue & a corrosponding chapter), 06 & 08, the other chapters in the remaining volumes are more or less connected, and what i'am proposing is allowing more then two translators per volume, This means while the maximum of half a volume for any one translator, the volume will effectively split into three sections. So for example, 8 chapters are in one volume, one translator can register four of them, while two other translators can still register for two each.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:00, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

I've seen Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan translated several ways in the first and second novels.

Book 1 Ch. 2 - The Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Bring More Excitement to the World

Book 1 Epilogue - Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Make the World More Exciting

Book 2 Prologue - Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade

Which, if any, are we going to use for a standard translation. As the name of the club the story revolves around, I think we should stick to one translation.

--[[User:SlashZero|SlashZero]] 16:34, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah, that's a good point, i agree we should decide on a standardlized term.

Personally I do like:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

It seems to me the best one, plus it fits the "SOS" bit

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:51, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, that is the one I like least, as the "Suzumiya Hiruhi's Brigade" part is just tacked on the end and it doesn't flow at all well. I really do not think we should contort the translation just to get something with the letters S, O and S. An anonymous contributor changed it in a few places to that version a couple days ago and I reverted the changes (making the usage in Volume 3 consistant with v01c02 while I was at it). I think the way I laid out the naming section in v01c02 should demonstrate how the "SOS" abbreviation came from. If it seems necessary, we could repeat that in each of the other novels wherever the club name first gets explained or even put it in a translator's note.

:As for the other two, I do not have a very strong opinion. Perhaps a translator could weigh in on how they think the correct meaning can best be stated?

:I'll go remove the version of this question I put on [[Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2]], or rather, replace it with a link here. This really is a project-wide issue.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:41, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Despite it being "tacked on" as you mentioned Blckknght, I have to say that I am in favour of the current translation that Onizuka-gto suggested (i.e. ''Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade''). This is probably mainly due to the fact that the translated version still fits the original acronym used in the novel. Moreover, based on my limited knowledge of Japanese, the current translation actually mirrors how odd the original sentence (that represents the acronym) sounds like.

A literal translation without considering the Japanese grammar would be: ''Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly''. Considering the obvious difference between English and Japanese, it would sound more like this: ''Suzumiya Haruhi's brigade of enjoying in order to uplift the world greatly''.

Based on that fact, I would think that the current translation best suits how silly the original name is for more reasons than the very meaning of the sentence (i.e. the odd sentence, words used and that it could be made into an acronym).

I very much think that we should stick with the current translation of but perhaps modify it slightly to make it seem a little more coherent. Here's my suggestion (please note the colon):

* '''Save our world by Overloading it with fun'':'' Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade'''.

Hope that helps.

Oh and if you want to check, here's the original kanji (or so I think): 世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼みやハルヒの団

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

lol.
Sneaky.

I don't think it need anymore modification, that phrase i mentioned eariler in my post, is in my opinion fine as it is.
I think adding that colon will just make it more confusing when they see the abbraviated version.

let me put this in prospective, I think it's best to attempt to find the most suitable translated term that will easily fit the "SOS" part of the name. within good grammatical English.

When you think about it with those context you will see that:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

Is the better of the three.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:13, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created [[Template:V1TOC]]:
{{V1TOC}}

To include it, as I did above, use this code:
<pre>
{{V1TOC}}
</pre>

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design.
how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

It has become apparent to me that some user wish to contribute portion of translated script, but on the other hand also do not wish to continue the chapter or be a project translator.
This is the case of [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] as many attempts to contact has resulted in no response and i can only conclude that s/he does not wish to join the Project Translator Team, at leased other users such as [[user:Hanunako|Harunako]] have given us notice as to how long they will be inactive and when s/he will planning to return to work on the project.

At the moment [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] has only registered Volume 03, "boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi" which is a single story chapter thus will not disturb the rest of the volume by her/his absents, there might be still sometime for [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] to reply but i do not have any high hopes for such a situation.
However there is a real possibility that If a user contributes on a chapter that has connection chapters before a project translators does, they will register as usual, contributes and then never be heard again.
This is a problem because effectively they will tie up a volume, as by guideline rules only two translators are allowed per volume.

What I propose is that if a portion of script has been contributed to a chapter that has yet been signed up by a Project Translator, then their names will be shown on the corrosponding chapters to give credit.

But we will also allow a Project Translator to register for that chapters, in which case we will no longer accept partial translated scripts for.

Comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 04:16, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-05-09T03:43:05Z

Kumarei: /* Nanpa */

__TOC__

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Nanpa ===

The practice of standing in the street and picking up girls, mostly common with younger people (high school and early college age). Men who do this all the time are called by the same term, and are sometimes considered somewhat weird.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:38, 8 May 2006 (EST)

== Editors' Notes ==

=== Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume ===
I feel that the 2rd last sentence of that section:
:While fanning her with my book, she yelled, "I'm so bored!"

Is a bit ambiguous - Is Kyon fanning her with his book, or did Haruhi fan herself with Kyon's book? Kyon refusing to fan her a few lines earlier seems add to the confusion.

---

Well... I don't feel it is ambiguous at all (if she were fanning herself, it would be worded "while fanning herself with my book...")
--Proto

Well, Kyon did say he refused, but probably decided to fan Haruhi anyway seeing how depressed she is.

--Kinny Riddle

---

Here's Kinny's translation from Chinese:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi scolded. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess I really did look like an idiot, so I didn't argue with her. While fanning her with my book, she yelled,

:"I'm so bored!"

:She drooped downwards like a cartoon character.
</cite>

The whole passage, in the original Japanese, is:

<cite>
:「マヌケ面」
:と決めつけた。お前が話を振ったんだろうが。多分その通りだろうから抗議するつもりはないが。セーラー服の胸元から教科書で風を送り込みながら、

:「ほんと、退屈」

:ハルヒは口を見事なへの字にした。　まるでマンガのキャラクターみたいな。
</cite>

Which reads as follow in ''romaji'':

<cite>
:''"manukedzura"''

:''to kimetsuketa. omae ga hanashi o futtandarou ka. tabun sono toori darou kara kougi suru tsumori wa nai ga. seiraafuku no munamoto kara kyoukasho de kaze o okurikominagara,''

:''"honto, taikutsu"''

:''Haruhi wa kuchi o migoto na heno-ji ni shita. maru de manga no kyarakutaa mitai na.''
</cite>

I make this out as:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,

:"I'm so bored!"

:Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a ''heno-ji''. She looked like a cartoon character.
</cite>

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

I've edited the text to reflect this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

:I just made some pretty broad edits to this section, trying to make it flow better in English. The paragraphs above now go:

<cite>
::Haruhi seemed to guess what I was thinking and scowled at me. She then lightly flipped her hair behind her ears.

::"You look like an idiot," Haruhi decided.

::Hey, weren't you the one bringing up the subject? But perhaps she was right, so there's no point in arguing with her.

::While fanning the neck of her uniform with a textbook, she blurts out, "I'm so bored!"

::Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a heno-ji. She looked like a comic book character.
</cite>

:Most of the changes are pretty small, but put together I think they make things much more readable. I'm not crazy about adding in "she said" to the line just before "I'm so bored", but without it I could not think of a way to make the two parts fit together. Please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages be bold] in editing, if you think you can further improve things.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 22:59, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise" ===

I finished my first read-through of the completed Chapter 7 and there're numerous points I'd like to raise (whilst I edit some of them):

* Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. '''While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,'''

w.r.t. (with respect to) the text above in bold, I'm not too sure whether I agree with the sentence or that it simply sounds odd. The fact that Haruhi has her uniform on seems to be a redundant point (unless explicitly mentioned in the novel). Thus, it could be simplified and made more concise by using this instead:
''"While fanning the upper half of her body with a textbook,"''

* Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a '''heno-ji'''. She looked like a cartoon character.

Please attach a translation note for the term '''heno-ji'''.

* We were frozen by an icy, '''minus 273 degree Celsius''' voice. Haruhi, wearing her PE uniform and carrying her bag, had a scary expression as though she had just witnessed her dad assaulting an innocent girl.

Unless "minus 273 degree Celsius" is explicitly mentioned, I think the original translation of "absolute zero" should be used and a translation note attached (just swap the link). The sentence would flow better with words alone rather than adding in scienific specifics.

* "Just kidding! Right now this sealed state is probably only temporary, but very soon it'll become similar to the world you know. Yet this world will be completely different to the world we're from. As of right now, this world could be considered as the real world, while the original reality ought to be considered a '''Sealed Dimension'''.
* After running quite a distance from the school buildings, we turned and looked upwards, and discovered how huge the giant was. The giant inside the '''Sealed Dimension''' Koizumi brought me in was just as huge as this, almost as tall as a building.
* As I answered Haruhi I thought at the same time, remembering what Koizumi told me when he brought me into that '''Sealed Dimension''', if we let these '''"Deities"''' continue their rampage, then after the destruction, the '''Sealed Dimension''' will replace the real world, meaning this grey world will replace the world we came from, and then......

Inconsistencies noted in bold. I'll make the changes.

* What will the world become?

While this sentence is perfectly fine, I think a substitute of "What will become of our world?" is more explicit as it highlights the fact that Kyon is referring to the "original world" and its potential replacement by the Sealed Reality.

* According to what Koizumi just told me, Haruhi seems to be creating a brand new world. By then would the Asahina and Nagato I know be in this new world? Or will it be a surreal world where these '''"Deities"''' walk around freely, and aliens, time travellers and espers become commonplace?
* I couldn't tell how large this '''Sealed Dimension''' was, and I didn't know if this dimension would expand and become another reality. At this moment, my mind was full of uncertainties. If at this instant, an old drunkard sitting beside me in a train said to me, "Let me tell you something, but don't tell anyone! I'm actually an alien." I would have believed him right away. Because my mysterious event experience level has now tripled compared to a month ago.
* I sat '''waerily''' on the floor and grabbed my head thinking. If this were all a dream, why did it feel so real? The sweaty right hand, and the warmth left on the lips......

Inconsistencies and mild grammar issues. I shall attempt to rectify them.

* The sun '''continues''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion. Mr Sunshine, I beg of you, can't you occasionally take a break? I'm going to fry to death!

Mild grammar issue. Substitute of "The sun '''continued''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:40, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

::Hey, Da~Mike. I've been meaning to reply to your long "sentence order post," but I haven't felt up to it lately. I'm just going to run through a few points that stick out to me, from your above points.
::* '''"While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,"'''
:::I'm probably a stickler for leaning towards the "literal translation" side of things. But in any case, a school uniform's breast also refers to that V-shaped opening in the sailor collar, which is where she she is most likely to fan. Hence, I favor not losing information from the original.
::* '''"minus 273 degree C voice."'''
:::this is in the actual book, and that aside, doesn't that just have a better ring to it? "Absolute Zero" needs another beat of time to realize that it's referring to temperature. Unless you're a physicist, I guess. But then again its possible that I'm the only one who likes those kinds of run-on-sentence-as-adjective descriptions. ''(See previous sentence!)''
::* '''"what will the world become?"'''
:::oddly enough, it works logically both ways. Haruhi is remaking the world, so what will that world become? That's actually what I thought when I read it, too. A translator would be needed to clarify this.
::* You noticed a few grammar things I missed in my run-through. Good eye.
::* '''"dreamt"'''
:::this is British spelling, as opposed to American spelling, which tends to use "dreamed" everywhere, though "dreamt" is used as well, usually in fixed sayings.
::* '''"storey"'''
:::this is also British spelling, vs. "story." But it's interesting that the British have a "story" word that means only floor levels.
::There's a lot of editing going on at once, I've noticed.
::'''Tip:''' the "Show Changes" feature has saved me many times from accidentally overwriting someone else's edits.
::--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:22, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Attack of the Blue Giant ===

* "I'm counting everything on you" (Nagato)

The text uses 賭ける, so I'm changing that to I'm betting everything on you.

* "I quickly pushed Haruhi down to the floor"

I couldn't resist changing "to" to "on".

* "Man, this is too lame"

I gave this line its own paragraph. It deserves it.

* "You'd look great in a ponytail"

「似合ってるぞ。」 I changed it to present tense.
--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 12:27, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Someone appears to have a liking for "Sealed Dimensions" and "Deities", which is blatantly apparent in the chapter.

Please adhere to the Format/Style Guideline before making any edits. Furthermore, please note any edits you have made and justify your reasons for doing so in the discussion page for each respective chapter.

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

I think thats Kinny (The Translator) initial translated term, unless im mistaken.
As you well know, Translators do not have stick to the Guidelines for translations, as we feel it will slow them down if they have to check themselves, thus allow the Editors to do the job for them.
On the other hand, if it was altered by another user, then i will have ask you to cease, and to follow the guidelines.

Thank you.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:54, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

==== Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. ====

I'm curious if the pronoun in this sentance is correct. The next sentance goes on: "If you're a normal high schooler, then I'm as normal as a flea."

It seems to me that "she" should actually be "you", if Taniguchi is talking about Kyon, rather than Yuki. From my limited knowledge of Japanese it seems like the subject of the sentance might have been left implicit, making it easy for a translator to make a mistake filling it in. Would somebody with the Japanese novels mind checking?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

なにより涼宮の手下でもあるしな。
"Naniyori Suzumiya no teshita de mo arushi na."

In the Japanese novel the subject of the sentence is dropped, but the way I'm reading it, I would guess it was picking up the subject from before Yuki was mentioned, which would be Kyon. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't the best, but I would guess it's refering to Kyon.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

Ok, I've gone ahead and changed it from "she's" to "you're". It makes a lot more sense that way.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:39, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. ====

This line doesn't make sense in context, as in the previous section Kyon and Taniguchi had already climbed to the second floor. Is he approaching the entrace to his classroom instead?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:11, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

"Taniguchi walked up to the second floor"

The corresponding Japanese is:

マヌケ面が第二段階に進行する。
"Manuke omo ga daini dankai ni shinkou suru."

I'm fairly sure that the line "Taniguchi walked up to the second floor" is completely wrong. As clearly as I can make out, it says: "His foolish features advance to a second stage." As close as I can make out (without taking the time to do an exact translation), the next sentence is "His face was like a nanpa (a guy who picks up young girls), the kind young schoolgirls have to be careful of, and he said, [...]"

I can definately see how the mistake was made, since the sentence is pretty weird, and it mentions second stage (a phrase which contains 'second floor').

The sentence "As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him." makes more sense, then, although the second part sounds a bit weird. I'll check it tomorrow. Right now, I'll change the earlier sentence and get some sleep. If someone could link the word "nanpa" in the corrected sentence to a translation note (not exactly sure how to do it myself), I'd be grateful, and I'll fill in a more comprehensive note on nanpa tomorrow.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

====We passed by the shoe lockers and walked silently in the school building.====
changed to "We passed by the shoe lockers and silently entered the school building." since the prior wording felt awkward and I kept reading it as "walked silently through the school" 
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-05-09T03:40:32Z

Kumarei:

__TOC__

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Nanpa ===

Japanese men who go around trying to pick up high school age (and younger) girls.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:38, 8 May 2006 (EST)

== Editors' Notes ==

=== Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume ===
I feel that the 2rd last sentence of that section:
:While fanning her with my book, she yelled, "I'm so bored!"

Is a bit ambiguous - Is Kyon fanning her with his book, or did Haruhi fan herself with Kyon's book? Kyon refusing to fan her a few lines earlier seems add to the confusion.

---

Well... I don't feel it is ambiguous at all (if she were fanning herself, it would be worded "while fanning herself with my book...")
--Proto

Well, Kyon did say he refused, but probably decided to fan Haruhi anyway seeing how depressed she is.

--Kinny Riddle

---

Here's Kinny's translation from Chinese:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi scolded. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess I really did look like an idiot, so I didn't argue with her. While fanning her with my book, she yelled,

:"I'm so bored!"

:She drooped downwards like a cartoon character.
</cite>

The whole passage, in the original Japanese, is:

<cite>
:「マヌケ面」
:と決めつけた。お前が話を振ったんだろうが。多分その通りだろうから抗議するつもりはないが。セーラー服の胸元から教科書で風を送り込みながら、

:「ほんと、退屈」

:ハルヒは口を見事なへの字にした。　まるでマンガのキャラクターみたいな。
</cite>

Which reads as follow in ''romaji'':

<cite>
:''"manukedzura"''

:''to kimetsuketa. omae ga hanashi o futtandarou ka. tabun sono toori darou kara kougi suru tsumori wa nai ga. seiraafuku no munamoto kara kyoukasho de kaze o okurikominagara,''

:''"honto, taikutsu"''

:''Haruhi wa kuchi o migoto na heno-ji ni shita. maru de manga no kyarakutaa mitai na.''
</cite>

I make this out as:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,

:"I'm so bored!"

:Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a ''heno-ji''. She looked like a cartoon character.
</cite>

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

I've edited the text to reflect this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

:I just made some pretty broad edits to this section, trying to make it flow better in English. The paragraphs above now go:

<cite>
::Haruhi seemed to guess what I was thinking and scowled at me. She then lightly flipped her hair behind her ears.

::"You look like an idiot," Haruhi decided.

::Hey, weren't you the one bringing up the subject? But perhaps she was right, so there's no point in arguing with her.

::While fanning the neck of her uniform with a textbook, she blurts out, "I'm so bored!"

::Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a heno-ji. She looked like a comic book character.
</cite>

:Most of the changes are pretty small, but put together I think they make things much more readable. I'm not crazy about adding in "she said" to the line just before "I'm so bored", but without it I could not think of a way to make the two parts fit together. Please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages be bold] in editing, if you think you can further improve things.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 22:59, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise" ===

I finished my first read-through of the completed Chapter 7 and there're numerous points I'd like to raise (whilst I edit some of them):

* Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. '''While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,'''

w.r.t. (with respect to) the text above in bold, I'm not too sure whether I agree with the sentence or that it simply sounds odd. The fact that Haruhi has her uniform on seems to be a redundant point (unless explicitly mentioned in the novel). Thus, it could be simplified and made more concise by using this instead:
''"While fanning the upper half of her body with a textbook,"''

* Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a '''heno-ji'''. She looked like a cartoon character.

Please attach a translation note for the term '''heno-ji'''.

* We were frozen by an icy, '''minus 273 degree Celsius''' voice. Haruhi, wearing her PE uniform and carrying her bag, had a scary expression as though she had just witnessed her dad assaulting an innocent girl.

Unless "minus 273 degree Celsius" is explicitly mentioned, I think the original translation of "absolute zero" should be used and a translation note attached (just swap the link). The sentence would flow better with words alone rather than adding in scienific specifics.

* "Just kidding! Right now this sealed state is probably only temporary, but very soon it'll become similar to the world you know. Yet this world will be completely different to the world we're from. As of right now, this world could be considered as the real world, while the original reality ought to be considered a '''Sealed Dimension'''.
* After running quite a distance from the school buildings, we turned and looked upwards, and discovered how huge the giant was. The giant inside the '''Sealed Dimension''' Koizumi brought me in was just as huge as this, almost as tall as a building.
* As I answered Haruhi I thought at the same time, remembering what Koizumi told me when he brought me into that '''Sealed Dimension''', if we let these '''"Deities"''' continue their rampage, then after the destruction, the '''Sealed Dimension''' will replace the real world, meaning this grey world will replace the world we came from, and then......

Inconsistencies noted in bold. I'll make the changes.

* What will the world become?

While this sentence is perfectly fine, I think a substitute of "What will become of our world?" is more explicit as it highlights the fact that Kyon is referring to the "original world" and its potential replacement by the Sealed Reality.

* According to what Koizumi just told me, Haruhi seems to be creating a brand new world. By then would the Asahina and Nagato I know be in this new world? Or will it be a surreal world where these '''"Deities"''' walk around freely, and aliens, time travellers and espers become commonplace?
* I couldn't tell how large this '''Sealed Dimension''' was, and I didn't know if this dimension would expand and become another reality. At this moment, my mind was full of uncertainties. If at this instant, an old drunkard sitting beside me in a train said to me, "Let me tell you something, but don't tell anyone! I'm actually an alien." I would have believed him right away. Because my mysterious event experience level has now tripled compared to a month ago.
* I sat '''waerily''' on the floor and grabbed my head thinking. If this were all a dream, why did it feel so real? The sweaty right hand, and the warmth left on the lips......

Inconsistencies and mild grammar issues. I shall attempt to rectify them.

* The sun '''continues''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion. Mr Sunshine, I beg of you, can't you occasionally take a break? I'm going to fry to death!

Mild grammar issue. Substitute of "The sun '''continued''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:40, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

::Hey, Da~Mike. I've been meaning to reply to your long "sentence order post," but I haven't felt up to it lately. I'm just going to run through a few points that stick out to me, from your above points.
::* '''"While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,"'''
:::I'm probably a stickler for leaning towards the "literal translation" side of things. But in any case, a school uniform's breast also refers to that V-shaped opening in the sailor collar, which is where she she is most likely to fan. Hence, I favor not losing information from the original.
::* '''"minus 273 degree C voice."'''
:::this is in the actual book, and that aside, doesn't that just have a better ring to it? "Absolute Zero" needs another beat of time to realize that it's referring to temperature. Unless you're a physicist, I guess. But then again its possible that I'm the only one who likes those kinds of run-on-sentence-as-adjective descriptions. ''(See previous sentence!)''
::* '''"what will the world become?"'''
:::oddly enough, it works logically both ways. Haruhi is remaking the world, so what will that world become? That's actually what I thought when I read it, too. A translator would be needed to clarify this.
::* You noticed a few grammar things I missed in my run-through. Good eye.
::* '''"dreamt"'''
:::this is British spelling, as opposed to American spelling, which tends to use "dreamed" everywhere, though "dreamt" is used as well, usually in fixed sayings.
::* '''"storey"'''
:::this is also British spelling, vs. "story." But it's interesting that the British have a "story" word that means only floor levels.
::There's a lot of editing going on at once, I've noticed.
::'''Tip:''' the "Show Changes" feature has saved me many times from accidentally overwriting someone else's edits.
::--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:22, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Attack of the Blue Giant ===

* "I'm counting everything on you" (Nagato)

The text uses 賭ける, so I'm changing that to I'm betting everything on you.

* "I quickly pushed Haruhi down to the floor"

I couldn't resist changing "to" to "on".

* "Man, this is too lame"

I gave this line its own paragraph. It deserves it.

* "You'd look great in a ponytail"

「似合ってるぞ。」 I changed it to present tense.
--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 12:27, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Someone appears to have a liking for "Sealed Dimensions" and "Deities", which is blatantly apparent in the chapter.

Please adhere to the Format/Style Guideline before making any edits. Furthermore, please note any edits you have made and justify your reasons for doing so in the discussion page for each respective chapter.

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

I think thats Kinny (The Translator) initial translated term, unless im mistaken.
As you well know, Translators do not have stick to the Guidelines for translations, as we feel it will slow them down if they have to check themselves, thus allow the Editors to do the job for them.
On the other hand, if it was altered by another user, then i will have ask you to cease, and to follow the guidelines.

Thank you.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:54, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

==== Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. ====

I'm curious if the pronoun in this sentance is correct. The next sentance goes on: "If you're a normal high schooler, then I'm as normal as a flea."

It seems to me that "she" should actually be "you", if Taniguchi is talking about Kyon, rather than Yuki. From my limited knowledge of Japanese it seems like the subject of the sentance might have been left implicit, making it easy for a translator to make a mistake filling it in. Would somebody with the Japanese novels mind checking?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

なにより涼宮の手下でもあるしな。
"Naniyori Suzumiya no teshita de mo arushi na."

In the Japanese novel the subject of the sentence is dropped, but the way I'm reading it, I would guess it was picking up the subject from before Yuki was mentioned, which would be Kyon. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't the best, but I would guess it's refering to Kyon.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

Ok, I've gone ahead and changed it from "she's" to "you're". It makes a lot more sense that way.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:39, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. ====

This line doesn't make sense in context, as in the previous section Kyon and Taniguchi had already climbed to the second floor. Is he approaching the entrace to his classroom instead?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:11, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

"Taniguchi walked up to the second floor"

The corresponding Japanese is:

マヌケ面が第二段階に進行する。
"Manuke omo ga daini dankai ni shinkou suru."

I'm fairly sure that the line "Taniguchi walked up to the second floor" is completely wrong. As clearly as I can make out, it says: "His foolish features advance to a second stage." As close as I can make out (without taking the time to do an exact translation), the next sentence is "His face was like a nanpa (a guy who picks up young girls), the kind young schoolgirls have to be careful of, and he said, [...]"

I can definately see how the mistake was made, since the sentence is pretty weird, and it mentions second stage (a phrase which contains 'second floor').

The sentence "As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him." makes more sense, then, although the second part sounds a bit weird. I'll check it tomorrow. Right now, I'll change the earlier sentence and get some sleep. If someone could link the word "nanpa" in the corrected sentence to a translation note (not exactly sure how to do it myself), I'd be grateful, and I'll fill in a more comprehensive note on nanpa tomorrow.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

====We passed by the shoe lockers and walked silently in the school building.====
changed to "We passed by the shoe lockers and silently entered the school building." since the prior wording felt awkward and I kept reading it as "walked silently through the school" 
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-05-09T03:38:41Z

Kumarei: /* As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. */

__TOC__

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Editors' Notes ==

=== Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume ===
I feel that the 2rd last sentence of that section:
:While fanning her with my book, she yelled, "I'm so bored!"

Is a bit ambiguous - Is Kyon fanning her with his book, or did Haruhi fan herself with Kyon's book? Kyon refusing to fan her a few lines earlier seems add to the confusion.

---

Well... I don't feel it is ambiguous at all (if she were fanning herself, it would be worded "while fanning herself with my book...")
--Proto

Well, Kyon did say he refused, but probably decided to fan Haruhi anyway seeing how depressed she is.

--Kinny Riddle

---

Here's Kinny's translation from Chinese:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi scolded. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess I really did look like an idiot, so I didn't argue with her. While fanning her with my book, she yelled,

:"I'm so bored!"

:She drooped downwards like a cartoon character.
</cite>

The whole passage, in the original Japanese, is:

<cite>
:「マヌケ面」
:と決めつけた。お前が話を振ったんだろうが。多分その通りだろうから抗議するつもりはないが。セーラー服の胸元から教科書で風を送り込みながら、

:「ほんと、退屈」

:ハルヒは口を見事なへの字にした。　まるでマンガのキャラクターみたいな。
</cite>

Which reads as follow in ''romaji'':

<cite>
:''"manukedzura"''

:''to kimetsuketa. omae ga hanashi o futtandarou ka. tabun sono toori darou kara kougi suru tsumori wa nai ga. seiraafuku no munamoto kara kyoukasho de kaze o okurikominagara,''

:''"honto, taikutsu"''

:''Haruhi wa kuchi o migoto na heno-ji ni shita. maru de manga no kyarakutaa mitai na.''
</cite>

I make this out as:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,

:"I'm so bored!"

:Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a ''heno-ji''. She looked like a cartoon character.
</cite>

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

I've edited the text to reflect this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

:I just made some pretty broad edits to this section, trying to make it flow better in English. The paragraphs above now go:

<cite>
::Haruhi seemed to guess what I was thinking and scowled at me. She then lightly flipped her hair behind her ears.

::"You look like an idiot," Haruhi decided.

::Hey, weren't you the one bringing up the subject? But perhaps she was right, so there's no point in arguing with her.

::While fanning the neck of her uniform with a textbook, she blurts out, "I'm so bored!"

::Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a heno-ji. She looked like a comic book character.
</cite>

:Most of the changes are pretty small, but put together I think they make things much more readable. I'm not crazy about adding in "she said" to the line just before "I'm so bored", but without it I could not think of a way to make the two parts fit together. Please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages be bold] in editing, if you think you can further improve things.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 22:59, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise" ===

I finished my first read-through of the completed Chapter 7 and there're numerous points I'd like to raise (whilst I edit some of them):

* Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. '''While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,'''

w.r.t. (with respect to) the text above in bold, I'm not too sure whether I agree with the sentence or that it simply sounds odd. The fact that Haruhi has her uniform on seems to be a redundant point (unless explicitly mentioned in the novel). Thus, it could be simplified and made more concise by using this instead:
''"While fanning the upper half of her body with a textbook,"''

* Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a '''heno-ji'''. She looked like a cartoon character.

Please attach a translation note for the term '''heno-ji'''.

* We were frozen by an icy, '''minus 273 degree Celsius''' voice. Haruhi, wearing her PE uniform and carrying her bag, had a scary expression as though she had just witnessed her dad assaulting an innocent girl.

Unless "minus 273 degree Celsius" is explicitly mentioned, I think the original translation of "absolute zero" should be used and a translation note attached (just swap the link). The sentence would flow better with words alone rather than adding in scienific specifics.

* "Just kidding! Right now this sealed state is probably only temporary, but very soon it'll become similar to the world you know. Yet this world will be completely different to the world we're from. As of right now, this world could be considered as the real world, while the original reality ought to be considered a '''Sealed Dimension'''.
* After running quite a distance from the school buildings, we turned and looked upwards, and discovered how huge the giant was. The giant inside the '''Sealed Dimension''' Koizumi brought me in was just as huge as this, almost as tall as a building.
* As I answered Haruhi I thought at the same time, remembering what Koizumi told me when he brought me into that '''Sealed Dimension''', if we let these '''"Deities"''' continue their rampage, then after the destruction, the '''Sealed Dimension''' will replace the real world, meaning this grey world will replace the world we came from, and then......

Inconsistencies noted in bold. I'll make the changes.

* What will the world become?

While this sentence is perfectly fine, I think a substitute of "What will become of our world?" is more explicit as it highlights the fact that Kyon is referring to the "original world" and its potential replacement by the Sealed Reality.

* According to what Koizumi just told me, Haruhi seems to be creating a brand new world. By then would the Asahina and Nagato I know be in this new world? Or will it be a surreal world where these '''"Deities"''' walk around freely, and aliens, time travellers and espers become commonplace?
* I couldn't tell how large this '''Sealed Dimension''' was, and I didn't know if this dimension would expand and become another reality. At this moment, my mind was full of uncertainties. If at this instant, an old drunkard sitting beside me in a train said to me, "Let me tell you something, but don't tell anyone! I'm actually an alien." I would have believed him right away. Because my mysterious event experience level has now tripled compared to a month ago.
* I sat '''waerily''' on the floor and grabbed my head thinking. If this were all a dream, why did it feel so real? The sweaty right hand, and the warmth left on the lips......

Inconsistencies and mild grammar issues. I shall attempt to rectify them.

* The sun '''continues''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion. Mr Sunshine, I beg of you, can't you occasionally take a break? I'm going to fry to death!

Mild grammar issue. Substitute of "The sun '''continued''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:40, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

::Hey, Da~Mike. I've been meaning to reply to your long "sentence order post," but I haven't felt up to it lately. I'm just going to run through a few points that stick out to me, from your above points.
::* '''"While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,"'''
:::I'm probably a stickler for leaning towards the "literal translation" side of things. But in any case, a school uniform's breast also refers to that V-shaped opening in the sailor collar, which is where she she is most likely to fan. Hence, I favor not losing information from the original.
::* '''"minus 273 degree C voice."'''
:::this is in the actual book, and that aside, doesn't that just have a better ring to it? "Absolute Zero" needs another beat of time to realize that it's referring to temperature. Unless you're a physicist, I guess. But then again its possible that I'm the only one who likes those kinds of run-on-sentence-as-adjective descriptions. ''(See previous sentence!)''
::* '''"what will the world become?"'''
:::oddly enough, it works logically both ways. Haruhi is remaking the world, so what will that world become? That's actually what I thought when I read it, too. A translator would be needed to clarify this.
::* You noticed a few grammar things I missed in my run-through. Good eye.
::* '''"dreamt"'''
:::this is British spelling, as opposed to American spelling, which tends to use "dreamed" everywhere, though "dreamt" is used as well, usually in fixed sayings.
::* '''"storey"'''
:::this is also British spelling, vs. "story." But it's interesting that the British have a "story" word that means only floor levels.
::There's a lot of editing going on at once, I've noticed.
::'''Tip:''' the "Show Changes" feature has saved me many times from accidentally overwriting someone else's edits.
::--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:22, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Attack of the Blue Giant ===

* "I'm counting everything on you" (Nagato)

The text uses 賭ける, so I'm changing that to I'm betting everything on you.

* "I quickly pushed Haruhi down to the floor"

I couldn't resist changing "to" to "on".

* "Man, this is too lame"

I gave this line its own paragraph. It deserves it.

* "You'd look great in a ponytail"

「似合ってるぞ。」 I changed it to present tense.
--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 12:27, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Someone appears to have a liking for "Sealed Dimensions" and "Deities", which is blatantly apparent in the chapter.

Please adhere to the Format/Style Guideline before making any edits. Furthermore, please note any edits you have made and justify your reasons for doing so in the discussion page for each respective chapter.

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

I think thats Kinny (The Translator) initial translated term, unless im mistaken.
As you well know, Translators do not have stick to the Guidelines for translations, as we feel it will slow them down if they have to check themselves, thus allow the Editors to do the job for them.
On the other hand, if it was altered by another user, then i will have ask you to cease, and to follow the guidelines.

Thank you.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:54, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

==== Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. ====

I'm curious if the pronoun in this sentance is correct. The next sentance goes on: "If you're a normal high schooler, then I'm as normal as a flea."

It seems to me that "she" should actually be "you", if Taniguchi is talking about Kyon, rather than Yuki. From my limited knowledge of Japanese it seems like the subject of the sentance might have been left implicit, making it easy for a translator to make a mistake filling it in. Would somebody with the Japanese novels mind checking?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

なにより涼宮の手下でもあるしな。
"Naniyori Suzumiya no teshita de mo arushi na."

In the Japanese novel the subject of the sentence is dropped, but the way I'm reading it, I would guess it was picking up the subject from before Yuki was mentioned, which would be Kyon. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't the best, but I would guess it's refering to Kyon.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

Ok, I've gone ahead and changed it from "she's" to "you're". It makes a lot more sense that way.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:39, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. ====

This line doesn't make sense in context, as in the previous section Kyon and Taniguchi had already climbed to the second floor. Is he approaching the entrace to his classroom instead?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:11, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

"Taniguchi walked up to the second floor"

The corresponding Japanese is:

マヌケ面が第二段階に進行する。
"Manuke omo ga daini dankai ni shinkou suru."

I'm fairly sure that the line "Taniguchi walked up to the second floor" is completely wrong. As clearly as I can make out, it says: "His foolish features advance to a second stage." As close as I can make out (without taking the time to do an exact translation), the next sentence is "His face was like a nanpa (a guy who picks up young girls), the kind young schoolgirls have to be careful of, and he said, [...]"

I can definately see how the mistake was made, since the sentence is pretty weird, and it mentions second stage (a phrase which contains 'second floor').

The sentence "As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him." makes more sense, then, although the second part sounds a bit weird. I'll check it tomorrow. Right now, I'll change the earlier sentence and get some sleep. If someone could link the word "nanpa" in the corrected sentence to a translation note (not exactly sure how to do it myself), I'd be grateful, and I'll fill in a more comprehensive note on nanpa tomorrow.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

====We passed by the shoe lockers and walked silently in the school building.====
changed to "We passed by the shoe lockers and silently entered the school building." since the prior wording felt awkward and I kept reading it as "walked silently through the school" 
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-05-09T03:35:39Z

Kumarei: /* As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. */

__TOC__

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Editors' Notes ==

=== Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume ===
I feel that the 2rd last sentence of that section:
:While fanning her with my book, she yelled, "I'm so bored!"

Is a bit ambiguous - Is Kyon fanning her with his book, or did Haruhi fan herself with Kyon's book? Kyon refusing to fan her a few lines earlier seems add to the confusion.

---

Well... I don't feel it is ambiguous at all (if she were fanning herself, it would be worded "while fanning herself with my book...")
--Proto

Well, Kyon did say he refused, but probably decided to fan Haruhi anyway seeing how depressed she is.

--Kinny Riddle

---

Here's Kinny's translation from Chinese:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi scolded. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess I really did look like an idiot, so I didn't argue with her. While fanning her with my book, she yelled,

:"I'm so bored!"

:She drooped downwards like a cartoon character.
</cite>

The whole passage, in the original Japanese, is:

<cite>
:「マヌケ面」
:と決めつけた。お前が話を振ったんだろうが。多分その通りだろうから抗議するつもりはないが。セーラー服の胸元から教科書で風を送り込みながら、

:「ほんと、退屈」

:ハルヒは口を見事なへの字にした。　まるでマンガのキャラクターみたいな。
</cite>

Which reads as follow in ''romaji'':

<cite>
:''"manukedzura"''

:''to kimetsuketa. omae ga hanashi o futtandarou ka. tabun sono toori darou kara kougi suru tsumori wa nai ga. seiraafuku no munamoto kara kyoukasho de kaze o okurikominagara,''

:''"honto, taikutsu"''

:''Haruhi wa kuchi o migoto na heno-ji ni shita. maru de manga no kyarakutaa mitai na.''
</cite>

I make this out as:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,

:"I'm so bored!"

:Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a ''heno-ji''. She looked like a cartoon character.
</cite>

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

I've edited the text to reflect this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

:I just made some pretty broad edits to this section, trying to make it flow better in English. The paragraphs above now go:

<cite>
::Haruhi seemed to guess what I was thinking and scowled at me. She then lightly flipped her hair behind her ears.

::"You look like an idiot," Haruhi decided.

::Hey, weren't you the one bringing up the subject? But perhaps she was right, so there's no point in arguing with her.

::While fanning the neck of her uniform with a textbook, she blurts out, "I'm so bored!"

::Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a heno-ji. She looked like a comic book character.
</cite>

:Most of the changes are pretty small, but put together I think they make things much more readable. I'm not crazy about adding in "she said" to the line just before "I'm so bored", but without it I could not think of a way to make the two parts fit together. Please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages be bold] in editing, if you think you can further improve things.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 22:59, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise" ===

I finished my first read-through of the completed Chapter 7 and there're numerous points I'd like to raise (whilst I edit some of them):

* Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. '''While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,'''

w.r.t. (with respect to) the text above in bold, I'm not too sure whether I agree with the sentence or that it simply sounds odd. The fact that Haruhi has her uniform on seems to be a redundant point (unless explicitly mentioned in the novel). Thus, it could be simplified and made more concise by using this instead:
''"While fanning the upper half of her body with a textbook,"''

* Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a '''heno-ji'''. She looked like a cartoon character.

Please attach a translation note for the term '''heno-ji'''.

* We were frozen by an icy, '''minus 273 degree Celsius''' voice. Haruhi, wearing her PE uniform and carrying her bag, had a scary expression as though she had just witnessed her dad assaulting an innocent girl.

Unless "minus 273 degree Celsius" is explicitly mentioned, I think the original translation of "absolute zero" should be used and a translation note attached (just swap the link). The sentence would flow better with words alone rather than adding in scienific specifics.

* "Just kidding! Right now this sealed state is probably only temporary, but very soon it'll become similar to the world you know. Yet this world will be completely different to the world we're from. As of right now, this world could be considered as the real world, while the original reality ought to be considered a '''Sealed Dimension'''.
* After running quite a distance from the school buildings, we turned and looked upwards, and discovered how huge the giant was. The giant inside the '''Sealed Dimension''' Koizumi brought me in was just as huge as this, almost as tall as a building.
* As I answered Haruhi I thought at the same time, remembering what Koizumi told me when he brought me into that '''Sealed Dimension''', if we let these '''"Deities"''' continue their rampage, then after the destruction, the '''Sealed Dimension''' will replace the real world, meaning this grey world will replace the world we came from, and then......

Inconsistencies noted in bold. I'll make the changes.

* What will the world become?

While this sentence is perfectly fine, I think a substitute of "What will become of our world?" is more explicit as it highlights the fact that Kyon is referring to the "original world" and its potential replacement by the Sealed Reality.

* According to what Koizumi just told me, Haruhi seems to be creating a brand new world. By then would the Asahina and Nagato I know be in this new world? Or will it be a surreal world where these '''"Deities"''' walk around freely, and aliens, time travellers and espers become commonplace?
* I couldn't tell how large this '''Sealed Dimension''' was, and I didn't know if this dimension would expand and become another reality. At this moment, my mind was full of uncertainties. If at this instant, an old drunkard sitting beside me in a train said to me, "Let me tell you something, but don't tell anyone! I'm actually an alien." I would have believed him right away. Because my mysterious event experience level has now tripled compared to a month ago.
* I sat '''waerily''' on the floor and grabbed my head thinking. If this were all a dream, why did it feel so real? The sweaty right hand, and the warmth left on the lips......

Inconsistencies and mild grammar issues. I shall attempt to rectify them.

* The sun '''continues''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion. Mr Sunshine, I beg of you, can't you occasionally take a break? I'm going to fry to death!

Mild grammar issue. Substitute of "The sun '''continued''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:40, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

::Hey, Da~Mike. I've been meaning to reply to your long "sentence order post," but I haven't felt up to it lately. I'm just going to run through a few points that stick out to me, from your above points.
::* '''"While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,"'''
:::I'm probably a stickler for leaning towards the "literal translation" side of things. But in any case, a school uniform's breast also refers to that V-shaped opening in the sailor collar, which is where she she is most likely to fan. Hence, I favor not losing information from the original.
::* '''"minus 273 degree C voice."'''
:::this is in the actual book, and that aside, doesn't that just have a better ring to it? "Absolute Zero" needs another beat of time to realize that it's referring to temperature. Unless you're a physicist, I guess. But then again its possible that I'm the only one who likes those kinds of run-on-sentence-as-adjective descriptions. ''(See previous sentence!)''
::* '''"what will the world become?"'''
:::oddly enough, it works logically both ways. Haruhi is remaking the world, so what will that world become? That's actually what I thought when I read it, too. A translator would be needed to clarify this.
::* You noticed a few grammar things I missed in my run-through. Good eye.
::* '''"dreamt"'''
:::this is British spelling, as opposed to American spelling, which tends to use "dreamed" everywhere, though "dreamt" is used as well, usually in fixed sayings.
::* '''"storey"'''
:::this is also British spelling, vs. "story." But it's interesting that the British have a "story" word that means only floor levels.
::There's a lot of editing going on at once, I've noticed.
::'''Tip:''' the "Show Changes" feature has saved me many times from accidentally overwriting someone else's edits.
::--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:22, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Attack of the Blue Giant ===

* "I'm counting everything on you" (Nagato)

The text uses 賭ける, so I'm changing that to I'm betting everything on you.

* "I quickly pushed Haruhi down to the floor"

I couldn't resist changing "to" to "on".

* "Man, this is too lame"

I gave this line its own paragraph. It deserves it.

* "You'd look great in a ponytail"

「似合ってるぞ。」 I changed it to present tense.
--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 12:27, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Someone appears to have a liking for "Sealed Dimensions" and "Deities", which is blatantly apparent in the chapter.

Please adhere to the Format/Style Guideline before making any edits. Furthermore, please note any edits you have made and justify your reasons for doing so in the discussion page for each respective chapter.

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

I think thats Kinny (The Translator) initial translated term, unless im mistaken.
As you well know, Translators do not have stick to the Guidelines for translations, as we feel it will slow them down if they have to check themselves, thus allow the Editors to do the job for them.
On the other hand, if it was altered by another user, then i will have ask you to cease, and to follow the guidelines.

Thank you.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:54, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

==== Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. ====

I'm curious if the pronoun in this sentance is correct. The next sentance goes on: "If you're a normal high schooler, then I'm as normal as a flea."

It seems to me that "she" should actually be "you", if Taniguchi is talking about Kyon, rather than Yuki. From my limited knowledge of Japanese it seems like the subject of the sentance might have been left implicit, making it easy for a translator to make a mistake filling it in. Would somebody with the Japanese novels mind checking?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

なにより涼宮の手下でもあるしな。
"Naniyori Suzumiya no teshita de mo arushi na."

In the Japanese novel the subject of the sentence is dropped, but the way I'm reading it, I would guess it was picking up the subject from before Yuki was mentioned, which would be Kyon. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't the best, but I would guess it's refering to Kyon.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

Ok, I've gone ahead and changed it from "she's" to "you're". It makes a lot more sense that way.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:39, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. ====

This line doesn't make sense in context, as in the previous section Kyon and Taniguchi had already climbed to the second floor. Is he approaching the entrace to his classroom instead?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:11, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

"Taniguchi walked up to the second floor"

The corresponding Japanese is:

マヌケ面が第二段階に進行する。
"Manuke omo ga daini dankai ni shinkou suru."

I'm fairly sure that the line "Taniguchi walked up to the second floor" is completely wrong. As clearly as I can make out, it says: "His foolish features advance to a second stage." As close as I can make out (without taking the time to do an exact translation), the next sentence is "His face was like a nanpa (a guy who picks up young girls), the kind young schoolgirls have to be careful of, and he said, [...]"

The sentence "As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him." makes more sense, then, although the second part sounds a bit weird. I'll check it tomorrow. Right now, I'll change the earlier sentence and get some sleep. If someone could link the word "nanpa" in the corrected sentence to a translation note (not exactly sure how to do it myself), I'd be grateful, and I'll fill in a more comprehensive note on nanpa tomorrow.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

====We passed by the shoe lockers and walked silently in the school building.====
changed to "We passed by the shoe lockers and silently entered the school building." since the prior wording felt awkward and I kept reading it as "walked silently through the school" 
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter7

2006-05-09T02:05:26Z

Kumarei: /* Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. */

__TOC__

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Heno-ji ===

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT) (made into a more formal note by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:08, 7 May 2006 (PDT))

=== Camellia ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
<cite>
:Camellia (Tsubaki in Japanese) is a genus of flowering plants in the family Theaceae, native to eastern and southern Asia from the Himalaya east to Japan and Indonesia. [...]

:They are evergreen shrubs and small trees from 2–20 m tall. The leaves are alternately arranged, simple, thick, serrated, usually glossy, and 3–17 cm long. The flowers are large and conspicuous, 1–12 cm diameter, with (in natural conditions) 5–9 petals; colour varies from white to pink and red, and yellow in a few species. [...]

:Camellia sinensis is of major commercial importance because tea is made from its leaves. [...]

:Many other camellias are grown as ornamental plants for their flowers. [...] Camellia japonica (often simply called Camellia) is the most prominent species in cultivation, with over 2,000 named cultivars. [...] They are highly valued in Japan and elsewhere for their very early flowering, often among the first flowers to appear in the late winter.
</cite>

See the linked article for photographs of Camellia blossoms.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:46, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Absolute Zero ===
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
<cite>
:Absolute zero is a fundamental lower bound on the temperature of any macroscopic system. It is a temperature of 0 K, −273.15°C, or −459.67°F. It is unachievable in practice but it exists as a limit for real physical phenomena, and it was inferred by extrapolation from kinetic theory, and from other considerations in theoretical physics.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Editors' Notes ==

=== Classroom scene - Where Haruhi is asking Kyon about Mikuru's next costume ===
I feel that the 2rd last sentence of that section:
:While fanning her with my book, she yelled, "I'm so bored!"

Is a bit ambiguous - Is Kyon fanning her with his book, or did Haruhi fan herself with Kyon's book? Kyon refusing to fan her a few lines earlier seems add to the confusion.

---

Well... I don't feel it is ambiguous at all (if she were fanning herself, it would be worded "while fanning herself with my book...")
--Proto

Well, Kyon did say he refused, but probably decided to fan Haruhi anyway seeing how depressed she is.

--Kinny Riddle

---

Here's Kinny's translation from Chinese:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi scolded. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess I really did look like an idiot, so I didn't argue with her. While fanning her with my book, she yelled,

:"I'm so bored!"

:She drooped downwards like a cartoon character.
</cite>

The whole passage, in the original Japanese, is:

<cite>
:「マヌケ面」
:と決めつけた。お前が話を振ったんだろうが。多分その通りだろうから抗議するつもりはないが。セーラー服の胸元から教科書で風を送り込みながら、

:「ほんと、退屈」

:ハルヒは口を見事なへの字にした。　まるでマンガのキャラクターみたいな。
</cite>

Which reads as follow in ''romaji'':

<cite>
:''"manukedzura"''

:''to kimetsuketa. omae ga hanashi o futtandarou ka. tabun sono toori darou kara kougi suru tsumori wa nai ga. seiraafuku no munamoto kara kyoukasho de kaze o okurikominagara,''

:''"honto, taikutsu"''

:''Haruhi wa kuchi o migoto na heno-ji ni shita. maru de manga no kyarakutaa mitai na.''
</cite>

I make this out as:

<cite>
:"You look like an idiot."

:Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,

:"I'm so bored!"

:Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a ''heno-ji''. She looked like a cartoon character.
</cite>

So what's a ''heno-ji'', I hear you ask...? It's a children's drawing, full name へのへのもへじ (''henohenomoheji'') made with those hiragana characters, to form a figure of a human face. Have a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henohenomoheji this Wikipedia page], which shows how it's made.

I've edited the text to reflect this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 08:02, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

:I just made some pretty broad edits to this section, trying to make it flow better in English. The paragraphs above now go:

<cite>
::Haruhi seemed to guess what I was thinking and scowled at me. She then lightly flipped her hair behind her ears.

::"You look like an idiot," Haruhi decided.

::Hey, weren't you the one bringing up the subject? But perhaps she was right, so there's no point in arguing with her.

::While fanning the neck of her uniform with a textbook, she blurts out, "I'm so bored!"

::Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a heno-ji. She looked like a comic book character.
</cite>

:Most of the changes are pretty small, but put together I think they make things much more readable. I'm not crazy about adding in "she said" to the line just before "I'm so bored", but without it I could not think of a way to make the two parts fit together. Please [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages be bold] in editing, if you think you can further improve things.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 22:59, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Chapter 7: "Points I'd like to raise" ===

I finished my first read-through of the completed Chapter 7 and there're numerous points I'd like to raise (whilst I edit some of them):

* Haruhi decided. Hey, weren't you the one changing the subject? But I guess she was right, so there was no point arguing with her. '''While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,'''

w.r.t. (with respect to) the text above in bold, I'm not too sure whether I agree with the sentence or that it simply sounds odd. The fact that Haruhi has her uniform on seems to be a redundant point (unless explicitly mentioned in the novel). Thus, it could be simplified and made more concise by using this instead:
''"While fanning the upper half of her body with a textbook,"''

* Haruhi's mouth was perfectly like a '''heno-ji'''. She looked like a cartoon character.

Please attach a translation note for the term '''heno-ji'''.

* We were frozen by an icy, '''minus 273 degree Celsius''' voice. Haruhi, wearing her PE uniform and carrying her bag, had a scary expression as though she had just witnessed her dad assaulting an innocent girl.

Unless "minus 273 degree Celsius" is explicitly mentioned, I think the original translation of "absolute zero" should be used and a translation note attached (just swap the link). The sentence would flow better with words alone rather than adding in scienific specifics.

* "Just kidding! Right now this sealed state is probably only temporary, but very soon it'll become similar to the world you know. Yet this world will be completely different to the world we're from. As of right now, this world could be considered as the real world, while the original reality ought to be considered a '''Sealed Dimension'''.
* After running quite a distance from the school buildings, we turned and looked upwards, and discovered how huge the giant was. The giant inside the '''Sealed Dimension''' Koizumi brought me in was just as huge as this, almost as tall as a building.
* As I answered Haruhi I thought at the same time, remembering what Koizumi told me when he brought me into that '''Sealed Dimension''', if we let these '''"Deities"''' continue their rampage, then after the destruction, the '''Sealed Dimension''' will replace the real world, meaning this grey world will replace the world we came from, and then......

Inconsistencies noted in bold. I'll make the changes.

* What will the world become?

While this sentence is perfectly fine, I think a substitute of "What will become of our world?" is more explicit as it highlights the fact that Kyon is referring to the "original world" and its potential replacement by the Sealed Reality.

* According to what Koizumi just told me, Haruhi seems to be creating a brand new world. By then would the Asahina and Nagato I know be in this new world? Or will it be a surreal world where these '''"Deities"''' walk around freely, and aliens, time travellers and espers become commonplace?
* I couldn't tell how large this '''Sealed Dimension''' was, and I didn't know if this dimension would expand and become another reality. At this moment, my mind was full of uncertainties. If at this instant, an old drunkard sitting beside me in a train said to me, "Let me tell you something, but don't tell anyone! I'm actually an alien." I would have believed him right away. Because my mysterious event experience level has now tripled compared to a month ago.
* I sat '''waerily''' on the floor and grabbed my head thinking. If this were all a dream, why did it feel so real? The sweaty right hand, and the warmth left on the lips......

Inconsistencies and mild grammar issues. I shall attempt to rectify them.

* The sun '''continues''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion. Mr Sunshine, I beg of you, can't you occasionally take a break? I'm going to fry to death!

Mild grammar issue. Substitute of "The sun '''continued''' to release its heat from its endless nuclear fusion."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:40, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

::Hey, Da~Mike. I've been meaning to reply to your long "sentence order post," but I haven't felt up to it lately. I'm just going to run through a few points that stick out to me, from your above points.
::* '''"While fanning the breast of her school uniform with a textbook,"'''
:::I'm probably a stickler for leaning towards the "literal translation" side of things. But in any case, a school uniform's breast also refers to that V-shaped opening in the sailor collar, which is where she she is most likely to fan. Hence, I favor not losing information from the original.
::* '''"minus 273 degree C voice."'''
:::this is in the actual book, and that aside, doesn't that just have a better ring to it? "Absolute Zero" needs another beat of time to realize that it's referring to temperature. Unless you're a physicist, I guess. But then again its possible that I'm the only one who likes those kinds of run-on-sentence-as-adjective descriptions. ''(See previous sentence!)''
::* '''"what will the world become?"'''
:::oddly enough, it works logically both ways. Haruhi is remaking the world, so what will that world become? That's actually what I thought when I read it, too. A translator would be needed to clarify this.
::* You noticed a few grammar things I missed in my run-through. Good eye.
::* '''"dreamt"'''
:::this is British spelling, as opposed to American spelling, which tends to use "dreamed" everywhere, though "dreamt" is used as well, usually in fixed sayings.
::* '''"storey"'''
:::this is also British spelling, vs. "story." But it's interesting that the British have a "story" word that means only floor levels.
::There's a lot of editing going on at once, I've noticed.
::'''Tip:''' the "Show Changes" feature has saved me many times from accidentally overwriting someone else's edits.
::--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:22, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Attack of the Blue Giant ===

* "I'm counting everything on you" (Nagato)

The text uses 賭ける, so I'm changing that to I'm betting everything on you.

* "I quickly pushed Haruhi down to the floor"

I couldn't resist changing "to" to "on".

* "Man, this is too lame"

I gave this line its own paragraph. It deserves it.

* "You'd look great in a ponytail"

「似合ってるぞ。」 I changed it to present tense.
--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 12:27, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Someone appears to have a liking for "Sealed Dimensions" and "Deities", which is blatantly apparent in the chapter.

Please adhere to the Format/Style Guideline before making any edits. Furthermore, please note any edits you have made and justify your reasons for doing so in the discussion page for each respective chapter.

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

I think thats Kinny (The Translator) initial translated term, unless im mistaken.
As you well know, Translators do not have stick to the Guidelines for translations, as we feel it will slow them down if they have to check themselves, thus allow the Editors to do the job for them.
On the other hand, if it was altered by another user, then i will have ask you to cease, and to follow the guidelines.

Thank you.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:54, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

==== Besides, she's Suzumiya's subordinate. ====

I'm curious if the pronoun in this sentance is correct. The next sentance goes on: "If you're a normal high schooler, then I'm as normal as a flea."

It seems to me that "she" should actually be "you", if Taniguchi is talking about Kyon, rather than Yuki. From my limited knowledge of Japanese it seems like the subject of the sentance might have been left implicit, making it easy for a translator to make a mistake filling it in. Would somebody with the Japanese novels mind checking?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

なにより涼宮の手下でもあるしな。
"Naniyori Suzumiya no teshita de mo arushi na."

In the Japanese novel the subject of the sentence is dropped, but the way I'm reading it, I would guess it was picking up the subject from before Yuki was mentioned, which would be Kyon. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't the best, but I would guess it's refering to Kyon.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]]

==== As I reached the stairs leading to the school entrance, I was sort of grateful to Taniguchi for having a conversation with me, as the heat had cooled down after talking to him. ====

This line doesn't make sense in context, as in the previous section Kyon and Taniguchi had already climbed to the second floor. Is he approaching the entrace to his classroom instead?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 20:11, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

====We passed by the shoe lockers and walked silently in the school building.====
changed to "We passed by the shoe lockers and silently entered the school building." since the prior wording felt awkward and I kept reading it as "walked silently through the school" 
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Format guideline

2006-05-09T01:37:11Z

Kumarei: /* Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! */

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==
For discussion of issues solely related to Chapter 1, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|the discussion page for Chapter 1]].

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==

==== Hyperion ====

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

==== Once it's all over, a post-mortem will be held to review and prepare for further developments. ====

Post-mortem? That sort of suggests a death, although I know what is trying to be said, but it might give the wrong meaning to other people. I wonder if there is another word we could substitute this with? Would anyone like to give a suggestion? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:44, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

In the military, they use the term "After Action Report" (abbr. AAR). --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:10, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Debriefing? --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Review. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:22, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Review is already said in the sentence, but we could change that. Out of which do you think Haruhi would be the most likely to say? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 05:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

To be honest, I think "debriefing" fits in very well in the sentence. It also suits the quasi-militaristic secret superspy-agent-hero-fantasy world that the SOS Brigade has its roots in. "Once it's all over, a debriefing will be held to review and prepare for further developments." See? It looks good. Kudos to '''velocity7''' for ''le mot juste''.--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 05:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

For this material, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|the discussion page for Chapter 5]].

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04, Title Discussion ==

While this is something I have noticed since the first visited this site, I never raised this issue as I had presumed that either a translator or an editor would correct it, yet so far, no one has.
The issue I would like to bring to everyone's attention (particularly translators and editors) is the current title of volume 4: '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi'''.

The instant I read that sentence, I had a nagging feeling that this was not an appropriate translation as it did not read well, by which I mean the sentence did not sound correct. To investigate further, I looked up the only two kanji used in the title of volume 4 (that differs from book to book), which are these two characters: 消失 (read as shou shitsu). After looking through all the Japanese dictionaries that I own and checking with numerous online kanji dictionaries, the characters 消失 were consistently defined as "disappearance" or "die out" as opposed to "vanishing".

This, I believe, turned out to be more beneficial for translating purposes as well. Here's why:
* The word "Disappear" is synonymous with "Vanish"
* The substitution of "Vanishing" with the word "Disappearance" in the title sentence is grammatically stronger.
==> "Vanishing" is synonymous with "Disappearing", yet both do not hold the same definition as "Disappearance".

==> Simply put, it is to do with tenses and time. "Vanishing" or "disappearing" are in present tense (or in the process of) whereas "disappearance" is either past tense or future-perfect tense. Here are some examples to distinguish the words apart:

e.g.1. "Now I shall perform my vanishing act!" the devious magician leered.

e.g.2. As the vitamin C tablet fizzed and skated across the surface of the water, I could see it disappearing before my very eyes. (Wow chemistry...)

e.g.3. No one I knew could offer any clue regarding the disappearance of the infamous troublemaker; Suzumiya Haruhi.

Now that I've explained it, here are the two versions of the title sentence for volume 4:
* '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''Original translation''

* '''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''My suggested translation''

As I was previously informed that we need to reach a general consensus on a "major-minor" change such as this before anything may be done, please post your opinion regarding the possible change of the title of volume 4 (which all in all, is still very minor).

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:44, 7 May 2006 (GMT) (I must have spent so long trying to ensure this post was void of any errors that the site logged me out! The IP stated in the change log is mine if you must know)

Looking up 消失 in the dictionary gave me both disappear and vanish, but I have to agree that "The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi" sounds a little better. Unless there's some specific reason in the text of the volume (which is kind of hard to say, since it hasn't been translated yet), or unless "The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi" is a generally accepted translation, I would go with that one.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 17:02, 8 May 2006 (EST)

All the other titles are "The [abstract noun] of Suzumiya Haruhi" so disappearance fits in better.
[[User:Dogtato|Dogtato]] 15:01, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Disappearance 賛成!

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 16:14, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
For those of you who don't like kanji, I've done the work for you: 賛成 = sansei = agreement/approval/support/favour
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

Most of the translation seems to have been done using plain text so far, with a few instances of capitals when somebody is yelling (e.g. "THAT'S WHY I AM WORKING SO HARD!!" in v01c01, "KYAA!!!" in v01c03, though notably it's instead "Kyaaa!!!" and "Kyaaa~~!!" in c02). However, I just was reading over the Volume 1 prologue and noticed that someone has used italics to emphisize some of Kyon's commentary. The italics are pretty appropriate as they are used in the prologue, but they bring up an issue of consistancy.

Are we going to use HTML (or rather Wiki) markup to make the text look nice? How about capitalized text? What are the style conventions we should use for each of those? Perhaps most importantly, what if any font or text styling changes are used in the original Japanese text to show emphasis?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:46, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.

I would leave it to their explanation, cause I have NO idea if it's better or not...sorry.

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Italics to indicate Kyon's "inner speech" would be a good idea I think.
I've watched a few episodes of the Haruhi anime and the fansubbing group a.f.k. helped distinguished the difference between Kyon's thoughts and his words. However, unlike the anime, since the novel is generally void of pictures, using italics or bold characters to indicate that Kyon is in fact musing would be incredibly useful. I would suggest italics as using bold font tends to indicate the importance of the text that is marked as bold, such as the '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!''' in the edit screen that I'm currently typing in. Capitals in essence, have the same effect but tends to connotate passion, by which I mean a strong emotion when stressing a point or issue.

Thus, I think capitals would suit situations where the characters are in dismay such as: "KYAA!!!"
The original translation (or so I would think) of "Kyaaa~~!!" is something to do with the Japanese language of associating the symbol "~" as a means to drag the sound of a word out. So if something wanted to say "Bye" but drag it, the typical English method of doing this would be to type repeated letters such as: "Byyeeeee" whereas in Japanese, it would tend to be written as "Bye~~".

Conclusion: use of italics, bold and capital font as would be very helpful and may enhance reading.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:35, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

<cite>
Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.
</cite>

Yup yup. that was before we had the format guidelines.
oh well, we bringing the early chapters up to standard so its getting there. (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:45, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:I take it 'use "Bye~~" instead of "Byyeeeeee" for dragged sounds' will be our standard here? Or the other way round?

:Hopefully the italising of Kyon's inner commentaries (that don't leak out) won't be too hard. Actually, which way do we treat those commentaries that do leak out but don't have explicit speech marks surrounding them? Yeah, I'm happy for the (''conservative'' use of) Markups, but uncertain on italising Kyon's commentaries - I think it's fine leaving that in plain text and let the reader figure out what's what.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:08, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah. No, not like that Psieye. It's the other way round; use '''"Byeeeee"''' instead of "Bye~~". The reason for this, as I may have mentioned already, is due to the fact that the use of '''~''' is generally not recognised to have the effect of dragging the sound of a word in English, even though it does so in the Japanese language.

For the sake of clarification, it would help to differentiate Kyon's inner speech and his actual dialogue. In my opinion, the inner speech that doesn't leak out should be considered as the first-person narrative, thus should remain in plan text.

Guessing games as to what Kyon is actually saying or saying to himself mentally may be entertaining for some but I personally feel that it is some what bothersome to figure out whether he actually said something in response or talked to himself mentally in response, while letting the person he's talking to blab on (normally Haruhi). I don't know whether I'm the only who has to do this, since I often find myself re-reading sections of the chapter at lest 3 times before I can conclusively decide how Kyon chose to respond.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:48, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

I don't understand why the editors should be able to decide what's Kyon's speech and what isn't, when the author obviously decided to leave it somewhat ambiguous. And are the editors any more qualified than the readers in deciding? I don't think it's our place to try to change the text so that it makes more sense than the original.

The author does use quotes for Kyon at some points, and the way that he doesn't quote, the type of things he doesn't quote, etc. are consistant enough to make it a part of the story's style. Should we be messing with it?

Also, I'm not sure about "Byeeeee", at least in this instance. The sound if you draged out bye naturally would be more of "Bye-eeee", with a switch in the intonation that isn't suggested in "Byeeeee". Basically, "Byeeeee" looks weird and gives a mental reading different than the actual pronounciation, so I think "Bye~~" works a bit better. It isn't common English, but is it common enough usage in the manga world to use? Not sure.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 21:35, 8 May 2006 (EST)

== Proposal to revised the number of Translators per volume ==

Hello, there are more Translators now, and it seems to me that we should revise how many translators can work on any one volume,
So I think we should revised this guideline and allow three Translators to work on a volume,

We have more then enought active Editors, who are very efficient so any doubts about inconsistancies are minimal in my opinion.

comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:05, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Mmm, worth a try I'd say. Now that we have better tracking of who translates what and a functional "Editors discuss matters to come to standardised decisions" atmosphere in place, worth testing it out. Though I'd still be wary - the more people on the project, the greater the administrative and organisational prowess needed (and coming up with large-scale procedures that don't bog down into uber legalese etc is hard).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:02, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

A simple phrase might describe the potential result of recruiting more translators (even editors I'd imagine):
"Three's company but four's a crowd."

What I mean by this is that having too many people might increase the number of debates due to conflicting opinions regarding translations of the original text. The translators have far greater "power" in terms of the decision making of how the original Japanese text should be interpreted, much like how many people can look at the same picture in an art gallery and interpret its meaning in multitudes of ways. Editors on the other hand, can't do such a thing as their source material tends to be the result of the translators' work.

Basically, I completely agree with Psieye. ^_~

As long as the translators can reach agreements on their styles of interpretation, then having more translators should be highly beneficial to this project.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

Another thing I'd like to note is that, some of the volumes have chapters which chain together (for example, volume 1). On the other hand, other volumes (such as volume 8) have standalone chapters which are meant to be read on their own. Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then volumes like say, volume 3, could have as many as 5 or 6 translators all working at the same time. And since the chapters are all not connected together (theoretically?), this would make it easier on translators to some extent.

Of course, Kyon's infamous narrative style does need to be properly shared by all.

--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 22:08, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes you are correct, Volume 03 chapters are individual stories. It has already been decided that on volume 03, that all the translators are allowed to register one chapter.

Besides 03, 05 (is undecided yet. possibility is allow one translator to a "pair". Prologue & a corrosponding chapter), 06 & 08, the other chapters in the remaining volumes are more or less connected, and what i'am proposing is allowing more then two translators per volume, This means while the maximum of half a volume for any one translator, the volume will effectively split into three sections. So for example, 8 chapters are in one volume, one translator can register four of them, while two other translators can still register for two each.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:00, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

I've seen Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan translated several ways in the first and second novels.

Book 1 Ch. 2 - The Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Bring More Excitement to the World

Book 1 Epilogue - Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Make the World More Exciting

Book 2 Prologue - Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade

Which, if any, are we going to use for a standard translation. As the name of the club the story revolves around, I think we should stick to one translation.

--[[User:SlashZero|SlashZero]] 16:34, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah, that's a good point, i agree we should decide on a standardlized term.

Personally I do like:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

It seems to me the best one, plus it fits the "SOS" bit

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:51, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, that is the one I like least, as the "Suzumiya Hiruhi's Brigade" part is just tacked on the end and it doesn't flow at all well. I really do not think we should contort the translation just to get something with the letters S, O and S. An anonymous contributor changed it in a few places to that version a couple days ago and I reverted the changes (making the usage in Volume 3 consistant with v01c02 while I was at it). I think the way I laid out the naming section in v01c02 should demonstrate how the "SOS" abbreviation came from. If it seems necessary, we could repeat that in each of the other novels wherever the club name first gets explained or even put it in a translator's note.

:As for the other two, I do not have a very strong opinion. Perhaps a translator could weigh in on how they think the correct meaning can best be stated?

:I'll go remove the version of this question I put on [[Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2]], or rather, replace it with a link here. This really is a project-wide issue.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:41, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Despite it being "tacked on" as you mentioned Blckknght, I have to say that I am in favour of the current translation that Onizuka-gto suggested (i.e. ''Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade''). This is probably mainly due to the fact that the translated version still fits the original acronym used in the novel. Moreover, based on my limited knowledge of Japanese, the current translation actually mirrors how odd the original sentence (that represents the acronym) sounds like.

A literal translation without considering the Japanese grammar would be: ''Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly''. Considering the obvious difference between English and Japanese, it would sound more like this: ''Suzumiya Haruhi's brigade of enjoying in order to uplift the world greatly''.

Based on that fact, I would think that the current translation best suits how silly the original name is for more reasons than the very meaning of the sentence (i.e. the odd sentence, words used and that it could be made into an acronym).

I very much think that we should stick with the current translation of but perhaps modify it slightly to make it seem a little more coherent. Here's my suggestion (please note the colon):

* '''Save our world by Overloading it with fun'':'' Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade'''.

Hope that helps.

Oh and if you want to check, here's the original kanji (or so I think): 世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼みやハルヒの団

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

lol.
Sneaky.

I don't think it need anymore modification, that phrase i mentioned eariler in my post, is in my opinion fine as it is.
I think adding that colon will just make it more confusing when they see the abbraviated version.

let me put this in prospective, I think it's best to attempt to find the most suitable translated term that will easily fit the "SOS" part of the name. within good grammatical English.

When you think about it with those context you will see that:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

Is the better of the three.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:13, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Uh.... no comment?...
Computer technicalities is something I'm plain terrible at...

(I'll delete this post in a while.)
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:31, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

It has become apparent to me that some user wish to contribute portion of translated script, but on the other hand also do not wish to continue the chapter or be a project translator.
This is the case of [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] as many attempts to contact has resulted in no response and i can only conclude that s/he does not wish to join the Project Translator Team, at leased other users such as [[user:Hanunako|Harunako]] have given us notice as to how long they will be inactive and when s/he will planning to return to work on the project.

At the moment [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] has only registered Volume 03, "boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi" which is a single story chapter thus will not disturb the rest of the wolume by her/his absents, there might be still sometime for [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] to reply but i do not have any high hopes for such a situation.
However there is a real possibility that If a user contributes on a chapter that has connection chapters before a project translators does, they will register as usual, contributes and then never be heard again.
This is a problem because effectively they will tie up a volume, as by guideline rules only two translators are allowed per volume.

What I propose is that if a portion of script has been contributed to a chapter that has yet been signed up by a Project Translator, then their names will be shown on the corrosponding chapters to give credit.

But we will also allow a Project Translator to register for that chapters, in which case we will no longer accept partial translated scripts for.

Comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 04:16, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-08T23:05:19Z

Kumarei: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging ''ga''. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Nice analysis of the structure The naming game. It seems clear that the use of '''though''' in that sentence is completely illogical. If we had to use a reason as to why it is, it is because Haruhi ''would not'' be the cause for a new month to come (in terms of the storyline, we know that Kyon doesn't know that Haruhi actually possesses supernatural powers yet).

'''I probably misinterpreted The naming game's analysis so the lines above may not apply.'''

If I had to compare the literal translation and The naming game's example of using '''though''', in terms of the application of the word though, they aren't that similar. Here's why I think so (I've categorised them in to letters and what not for ease of understanding):

'''The literal translation:'''
* '''As this and that was happening = A''' '''--although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that = B''', '''however -- May arrived. = C'''

In this case, '''B''' is the cause of '''A''' but regardless of that fact, '''C''' occurs.

'''The naming game's example:'''
* '''With all these deliveries needing to be made = X''', '''though it was Mr. Incompetent driving = Y''', '''we all returned safely = Z'''

In this case, '''X''' needs to be done and is carried out by '''Y'''. However, because '''Y''' is doing it, '''Z''' is jeopardised and may not occur. Yet despite '''Y''' performing '''X''', '''Z''' occurs.

Based on this breakdown, it seems that the literal translation is logical in its original state.

Anyhow, I've analysed the Japanese sentence provided and after noting Freak of nature's translation, here's another literal translation of what it means: ''While to do such a thing though, it was just Haruhi who does such a thing, but May comes.''. Another nonsensical sentence...
With respect to the original translation, Freak of Nature's literal translation and from what I've interpreted additionally (with the aid of The naming game's analysis), here's my suggested interpretation of this sentence:

'''The original translation:'''
* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly.

'''My suggestion:'''
* Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.

Hence, in essence, my suggested substitute for the word "anyway" would be "regardless" or something along those lines, such as "despite".

Hope that helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to use [[User:The naming game|The naming game]]'s ''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.'' I think it still carries the majority of the meaning of the sentence, and flows better than most of the other versions. I think the change that [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] suggested might be a little too off of the original meaning.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 18:46, 8 May 2006 (EST)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

I think "nervous breakdown/exhaustion" (or just "collapse from exhaustion") is a perfectly acceptable change to make. The Yellow Fever remark would not carry all the appropriate connotations for an English reader, whereas prostration or exhaustion would.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

While your interpretation is perfectly fine, I must say that I do agree with The naming game rather strongly in that it would be a shame to omit the bit of trivia regarding Japanese superstitions. Hence, I would also suggest keeping the original form of "yellow fever" or a suitable substitute whilst adding a translation note regarding it, explaining the reason for using the term "yellow fever" and its correlation to Japanese superstition.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 23:02, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure of), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he was already talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

<cite>:I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."</cite>

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Whilst massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Although both our suggested interpretations would connotate the same thing (that Kyon would be guessing that Taniguchi got dumped by Haruhi), the degree by which he would be doing so is not as strong in your suggested interpretation. By this, I mean that this sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" implies that Kyon would be inclined to assume that Taniguchi got dumped whereas "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''" impies that Kyon is largely unsure whether he was dumped by Haruhi.

Again, the actual source text would be invaluable to decide which would suit the context better.

However, if I had to choose which sentence would suit Kyon as a character, I would think the sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" would fit the cynical and sarcastic nature of Kyon much better than "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''", which would be something a "nicer person" would think to themselves, such as a character like Mikuru.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:56, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-08T22:50:22Z

Kumarei: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging ''ga''. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Nice analysis of the structure The naming game. It seems clear that the use of '''though''' in that sentence is completely illogical. If we had to use a reason as to why it is, it is because Haruhi ''would not'' be the cause for a new month to come (in terms of the storyline, we know that Kyon doesn't know that Haruhi actually possesses supernatural powers yet).

'''I probably misinterpreted The naming game's analysis so the lines above may not apply.'''

If I had to compare the literal translation and The naming game's example of using '''though''', in terms of the application of the word though, they aren't that similar. Here's why I think so (I've categorised them in to letters and what not for ease of understanding):

'''The literal translation:'''
* '''As this and that was happening = A''' '''--although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that = B''', '''however -- May arrived. = C'''

In this case, '''B''' is the cause of '''A''' but regardless of that fact, '''C''' occurs.

'''The naming game's example:'''
* '''With all these deliveries needing to be made = X''', '''though it was Mr. Incompetent driving = Y''', '''we all returned safely = Z'''

In this case, '''X''' needs to be done and is carried out by '''Y'''. However, because '''Y''' is doing it, '''Z''' is jeopardised and may not occur. Yet despite '''Y''' performing '''X''', '''Z''' occurs.

Based on this breakdown, it seems that the literal translation is logical in its original state.

Anyhow, I've analysed the Japanese sentence provided and after noting Freak of nature's translation, here's another literal translation of what it means: ''While to do such a thing though, it was just Haruhi who does such a thing, but May comes.''. Another nonsensical sentence...
With respect to the original translation, Freak of Nature's literal translation and from what I've interpreted additionally (with the aid of The naming game's analysis), here's my suggested interpretation of this sentence:

'''The original translation:'''
* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly.

'''My suggestion:'''
* Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.

Hence, in essence, my suggested substitute for the word "anyway" would be "regardless" or something along those lines, such as "despite".

Hope that helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

The problem here is that it's not stated that the month of May come regardless of all the things that were going on. I'm not sure where the "May arrives quietly" comes from, since it's counter to the story. May comes during these odd events. It seems to me that the change suggested here completely alters the connotations of the sentence. The sentence literally reads: "With this and that being done -- but it was Haruhi doing this and that -- May comes." Thus, the main structure of the sentence (reinterpereted for English) is: "With all this stuff going on, May came." The insert is a complete aside, saying "Haruhi was the cause of the stuff going on". The 'though' used is part of the aside, rather than part of the continuing sentence, thus: "With all this stuff going on -- though Haruhi was the cause of it..." Kyon here trails off, then remembers that he had a sentence to complete. "With all this stuff going on -- though Haruhi was the cause of it... anyway -- May arrives." It's very colloquial, and a bit odd, because Kyon is narrating to us.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 18:46, 8 May 2006 (EST)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

I think "nervous breakdown/exhaustion" (or just "collapse from exhaustion") is a perfectly acceptable change to make. The Yellow Fever remark would not carry all the appropriate connotations for an English reader, whereas prostration or exhaustion would.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

While your interpretation is perfectly fine, I must say that I do agree with The naming game rather strongly in that it would be a shame to omit the bit of trivia regarding Japanese superstitions. Hence, I would also suggest keeping the original form of "yellow fever" or a suitable substitute whilst adding a translation note regarding it, explaining the reason for using the term "yellow fever" and its correlation to Japanese superstition.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 23:02, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure of), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he was already talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

<cite>:I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."</cite>

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Whilst massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Although both our suggested interpretations would connotate the same thing (that Kyon would be guessing that Taniguchi got dumped by Haruhi), the degree by which he would be doing so is not as strong in your suggested interpretation. By this, I mean that this sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" implies that Kyon would be inclined to assume that Taniguchi got dumped whereas "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''" impies that Kyon is largely unsure whether he was dumped by Haruhi.

Again, the actual source text would be invaluable to decide which would suit the context better.

However, if I had to choose which sentence would suit Kyon as a character, I would think the sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" would fit the cynical and sarcastic nature of Kyon much better than "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''", which would be something a "nicer person" would think to themselves, such as a character like Mikuru.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:56, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

Talk:Format guideline

2006-05-08T21:06:40Z

Kumarei: /* Volume 04, Title Discussion */

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==
For discussion of issues solely related to Chapter 1, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|the discussion page for Chapter 1]].

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==

==== Hyperion ====

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

==== Once it's all over, a post-mortem will be held to review and prepare for further developments. ====

Post-mortem? That sort of suggests a death, although I know what is trying to be said, but it might give the wrong meaning to other people. I wonder if there is another word we could substitute this with? Would anyone like to give a suggestion? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:44, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

In the military, they use the term "After Action Report" (abbr. AAR). --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:10, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Debriefing? --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Review. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:22, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Review is already said in the sentence, but we could change that. Out of which do you think Haruhi would be the most likely to say? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 05:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

To be honest, I think "debriefing" fits in very well in the sentence. It also suits the quasi-militaristic secret superspy-agent-hero-fantasy world that the SOS Brigade has its roots in. "Once it's all over, a debriefing will be held to review and prepare for further developments." See? It looks good. Kudos to '''velocity7''' for ''le mot juste''.--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 05:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

For this material, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|the discussion page for Chapter 5]].

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==
== Volume 04, Title Discussion ==

While this is something I have noticed since the first visited this site, I never raised this issue as I had presumed that either a translator or an editor would correct it, yet so far, no one has.
The issue I would like to bring to everyone's attention (particularly translators and editors) is the current title of volume 4: '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi'''.

The instant I read that sentence, I had a nagging feeling that this was not an appropriate translation as it did not read well, by which I mean the sentence did not sound correct. To investigate further, I looked up the only two kanji used in the title of volume 4 (that differs from book to book), which are these two characters: 消失 (read as shou shitsu). After looking through all the Japanese dictionaries that I own and checking with numerous online kanji dictionaries, the characters 消失 were consistently defined as "disappearance" or "die out" as opposed to "vanishing".

This, I believe, turned out to be more beneficial for translating purposes as well. Here's why:
* The word "Disappear" is synonymous with "Vanish"
* The substitution of "Vanishing" with the word "Disappearance" in the title sentence is grammatically stronger.
==> "Vanishing" is synonymous with "Disappearing", yet both do not hold the same definition as "Disappearance".

==> Simply put, it is to do with tenses and time. "Vanishing" or "disappearing" are in present tense (or in the process of) whereas "disappearance" is either past tense or future-perfect tense. Here are some examples to distinguish the words apart:

e.g.1. "Now I shall perform my vanishing act!" the devious magician leered.

e.g.2. As the vitamin C tablet fizzed and skated across the surface of the water, I could see it disappearing before my very eyes. (Wow chemistry...)

e.g.3. No one I knew could offer any clue regarding the disappearance of the infamous troublemaker; Suzumiya Haruhi.

Now that I've explained it, here are the two versions of the title sentence for volume 4:
* '''The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''Original translation''

* '''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi''' ''My suggested translation''

As I was previously informed that we need to reach a general consensus on a "major-minor" change such as this before anything may be done, please post your opinion regarding the possible change of the title of volume 4 (which all in all, is still very minor).

Thank you.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:44, 7 May 2006 (GMT) (I must have spent so long trying to ensure this post was void of any errors that the site logged me out! The IP stated in the change log is mine if you must know)

Looking up 消失 in the dictionary gave me both disappear and vanish, but I have to agree that "The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi" sounds a little better. Unless there's some specific reason in the text of the volume (which is kind of hard to say, since it hasn't been translated yet), or unless "The Vanishing of Suzumiya Haruhi" is a generally accepted translation, I would go with that one.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 17:02, 8 May 2006 (EST)

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations. Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of. However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out. For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style. The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not. I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added. What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line. In the current format, such lines are separated by a space. I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed. Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese. In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't. In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue. Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader? In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text? Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience. ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading. I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there. ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''

''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues. You have been warned!)''

That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well. I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples. My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask? Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?"
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?"

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>

The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!"

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>

'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification. I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding. If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)'' Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me. The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue. However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text. Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.

By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text. "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value. Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it.

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical'''

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* I prefer the EX1.d wording to preserve the original expectation you mentioned. My reason for this is because the style of the Japanese novel retains this separate (dialogue) + (commetary) formatting. Much work will be involved should we decide to reword all the sentences of our translators (who seem to be following the novel's formatting).

For Example 3, I prefer the EX3b rewording with "this" because of the long length of Haruhi's speech.

Overall, I believe retaining the original order of the dialogue and following commentary is the best way since order/expectation is not an issue. However, the presence of a space between the speech and commentary seems to be unnecessary. The formatting of the Wiki seems to make the space between separate lines more pronounced than is present in the original Japanese novel. Therefore, I'm in favor of connecting commentary to the dialogue except in the cases of long speeches such as in EX3. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 17:28, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I finally read through all the possible stylistic variations you mentioned above The naming game. Now here's what I think of the options, which I decided before reading your footnotes to understand your viewpoint.
I'll list it in a mathematical order for ease (where the symbol > means greater than what the "pointy end" points at. Basic math.)

EX1b > EX1c > EX1d > EX1a

Initially, after reading those four variations, the first thing that struck me was the lack of distinction between the speakers, present in both the versions EX1d and EX1a. It isn't immediately apparent that Kyon raised the question or the reason for it (although normal people would definitely question Haruhi's actions...).
I also noted a difference between the two sets of styles, that being EX1b & EX1c vs. EX1d & EX1a. The difference is that EX1b & EX1c suggests that there was a noticeable time lag between Haruhi's statement and Kyon's interjection (which makes it seem logical for Kyon to think to himself "Since no one else is asking... etc"). EX1d & EX1a however, suggests a more sudden, if not immediate interjection from Kyon, making it seem less sensible as to what Kyon considers as a time delay for people to react (in this case, to ask Haruhi what they were to do).
After reading The naming game's footnotes however, one aspect that makes this novel appealing is the appearance of Kyon's musings every so often, which often serve as his immediate reaction (before he ever considers speaking or in direct response to a ridiculous statement of some sort). Thus, I conclude that Kyon's contemplations or "inner speech" that is often directed at the reader should be retained. However, I believe the issue on the time delay that I mentioned should also be addressed if possible.

EX2a > EX2b > EX2c

First of all, I like J.K. Rowling's style of writing, which in fact is the preferred mode of writing here in Britain mind you. In any case, personal preferences aside, again, these three variations can be differentiated into two categories:
EX2a & EX2b vs. EX2c
Both EX2a & EX2b deliver Haruhi's shout to be sudden and has the effect of startling the reader (although it didn't startle me...). The reason for this is that it does not announce what the character is about to do before the character actually performs the action. Putting this into perspective, imagine we had a film, say Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back and we were hinted at what Darth Vader was about to say to Luke:
e.g. Darth Vader paused, with his crimson light-saber ever primed, he prepared himself to deliver five words that would send Luke's psyche into complete and utter disarray. "Luke. I am your father."
.....
Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't seem quite that wrong here; in fact I think it worked fairly well... I guess I used a bad example...
Anyway, the point is that EX2c removes the added element of surprise by specifying that Haruhi stood on her seat and was about to shout whatever words came after the word shout. EX2b is inferior to EX2a by the fact that it appears to be grammatically weaker, or seems less fluid in terms of wording.

EX3b > EX3a > EX3c

My opinions on this are similar to The naming game's.
EX3b is a clear and succinct description of what the entire monologue of Haruhi was like. It also helps to further reinforce the reader's thoughts of what they interpreted of the long passage of Haruhi's past coming from the notorious Haruhi herself (or at least I believe it would reinforce what the reader would think). By this I mean it reinforces certain thoughts after the reader has read through the monologue and then read the description of how the monologue was delivered.
EX3a is identical to EX3b except for the use of "spoke endlessly" as opposed to "spoke without ever pausing". The term "endlessly", like another point I mentioned above (if not related to all of them), does not specify time. By this I mean and endless speech could be a university lecturer who would speak endlessly in a lecture over a period of an hour, putting everyone to sleep with the voice of a lullaby. In contrast, a university lecturer who spoke without ever pausing would probably hold all of the students’ attention due to the rate of his/her speech (e.g. a hyperactive or eccentric lecturer). Therefore, the usage of "spoke without ever pausing" seems to suit and define the character of Haruhi much better than that of "spoke endlessly".

EX3c is less to my liking for the same reason that I disliked EX2c. In general, it is often far more interesting to leave the reader to imagine how an action might be performed before stating the mode by which it was performed or delivered (for this kind of style, it is typically speech). This would give the reader a bit more freedom to engage themselves into the story by conveying words into imagination before reading further to find that it was to their expectation or it wasn't (bursting their bubble).

Well, that's all I have to say on this part for the time being. Hope it helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:12, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Overall style and flow of translations. ===

Since there isn't a pre-existing topic that stands regarding this, I've added a new topic I'd like to address. The current form of the translations and edits appear to be really good but there's one thing that bugs me every so often: sometimes, the language doesn't really flow too well. I note that this is far less apparent after the editors (and translators) have done their vigorous rounds cleaning up each chapter.

In any case, what I hope to address is that the writing style of the novel be maintained. Despite having no access to the original source material, I presume that if these novels were to be classified, they would be classified as young-adult science fiction. Based on that, it would imply that the use of obscure words and terminology (and Tolkien-esque writing) should be limited to enhance the smooth and unhindered amusement that these novels have to offer.

Basically, please continue to keep this in mind while translating/editing as you have done so far.

(If you feel I have made a needless point, please feel free to remove this topic.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:01, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High." --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice? If not, it shouldn't be used. The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read. Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it. Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided. An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.) I doubt that's the case here. Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly. As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration. The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past. Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom.

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"

I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now.

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution.
but from the top of my head, we could split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times.

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;; Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word... [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right?

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite>

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;)
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire)

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space".
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.

'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??)
人 = jin = person, people
神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business
鎖 = sa = chain
閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air
間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space)
空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person.
Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly.
(I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy.
Here's the list of options:

* sealed
* bound
* locked
* confined
* restricted
* limited (very ambiguous term)
* finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality?
That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the ''heisa kuukan'' is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not '''sequestered topology'''? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the ''shinjin''.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the ''Monsters of the Id'' phrase from the classic SF film '''Forbidden Planet'''. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???"
In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

* Its relevance to the context
* To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

# To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
# To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
# Law.
## To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
## To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

# Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
# Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
# Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
# Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

==== 4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan" ====

<cite>
I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!
</cite>

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

:'''A few quick notes on "reality"'''
: before this deadline thing rolls around. ''(I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)''

:'''Consider:'''
:* "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
:* "You're out of touch with reality."

:There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

:'''If we ''do'' end up using "reality",''' ''(and it looks like we're going to)''
:* I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
:* Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
:**Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
:** "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
:** "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
:** "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. ''(Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)''
:* Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

:'''By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,'''
:please stop by the talk pages [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1| for Vol 1 Ch 1]], and [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3| for Vol 1 Ch 3]], or [[Talk:Format_guideline#Sentence_order_of_interleaved_dialogue_and_description.| here on this page]] to give some input on the issues I asked about there. ''(Bikesheds galore!)''

:One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. ''(I can quit anytime...)''

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

:--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

== Markup: CAPITALS, ''italics'' and '''bold''', oh my! ==

Most of the translation seems to have been done using plain text so far, with a few instances of capitals when somebody is yelling (e.g. "THAT'S WHY I AM WORKING SO HARD!!" in v01c01, "KYAA!!!" in v01c03, though notably it's instead "Kyaaa!!!" and "Kyaaa~~!!" in c02). However, I just was reading over the Volume 1 prologue and noticed that someone has used italics to emphisize some of Kyon's commentary. The italics are pretty appropriate as they are used in the prologue, but they bring up an issue of consistancy.

Are we going to use HTML (or rather Wiki) markup to make the text look nice? How about capitalized text? What are the style conventions we should use for each of those? Perhaps most importantly, what if any font or text styling changes are used in the original Japanese text to show emphasis?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 02:46, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.

I would leave it to their explanation, cause I have NO idea if it's better or not...sorry.

--[[User:199.88.96.65|199.88.96.65]] 08:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Italics to indicate Kyon's "inner speech" would be a good idea I think.
I've watched a few episodes of the Haruhi anime and the fansubbing group a.f.k. helped distinguished the difference between Kyon's thoughts and his words. However, unlike the anime, since the novel is generally void of pictures, using italics or bold characters to indicate that Kyon is in fact musing would be incredibly useful. I would suggest italics as using bold font tends to indicate the importance of the text that is marked as bold, such as the '''DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!''' in the edit screen that I'm currently typing in. Capitals in essence, have the same effect but tends to connotate passion, by which I mean a strong emotion when stressing a point or issue.

Thus, I think capitals would suit situations where the characters are in dismay such as: "KYAA!!!"
The original translation (or so I would think) of "Kyaaa~~!!" is something to do with the Japanese language of associating the symbol "~" as a means to drag the sound of a word out. So if something wanted to say "Bye" but drag it, the typical English method of doing this would be to type repeated letters such as: "Byyeeeee" whereas in Japanese, it would tend to be written as "Bye~~".

Conclusion: use of italics, bold and capital font as would be very helpful and may enhance reading.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 02:35, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

<cite>
Hm..that's probably inconsistency from editors, as i think Kinnyriddle did all the raw translations. for volume 1.
</cite>

Yup yup. that was before we had the format guidelines.
oh well, we bringing the early chapters up to standard so its getting there. (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:45, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:I take it 'use "Bye~~" instead of "Byyeeeeee" for dragged sounds' will be our standard here? Or the other way round?

:Hopefully the italising of Kyon's inner commentaries (that don't leak out) won't be too hard. Actually, which way do we treat those commentaries that do leak out but don't have explicit speech marks surrounding them? Yeah, I'm happy for the (''conservative'' use of) Markups, but uncertain on italising Kyon's commentaries - I think it's fine leaving that in plain text and let the reader figure out what's what.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:08, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== Proposal to revised the number of Translators per volume ==

Hello, there are more Translators now, and it seems to me that we should revise how many translators can work on any one volume,
So I think we should revised this guideline and allow three Translators to work on a volume,

We have more then enought active Editors, who are very efficient so any doubts about inconsistancies are minimal in my opinion.

comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:05, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Mmm, worth a try I'd say. Now that we have better tracking of who translates what and a functional "Editors discuss matters to come to standardised decisions" atmosphere in place, worth testing it out. Though I'd still be wary - the more people on the project, the greater the administrative and organisational prowess needed (and coming up with large-scale procedures that don't bog down into uber legalese etc is hard).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:02, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

A simple phrase might describe the potential result of recruiting more translators (even editors I'd imagine):
"Three's company but four's a crowd."

What I mean by this is that having too many people might increase the number of debates due to conflicting opinions regarding translations of the original text. The translators have far greater "power" in terms of the decision making of how the original Japanese text should be interpreted, much like how many people can look at the same picture in an art gallery and interpret its meaning in multitudes of ways. Editors on the other hand, can't do such a thing as their source material tends to be the result of the translators' work.

Basically, I completely agree with Psieye. ^_~

As long as the translators can reach agreements on their styles of interpretation, then having more translators should be highly beneficial to this project.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:12, 6 May 2006 (GMT)

Another thing I'd like to note is that, some of the volumes have chapters which chain together (for example, volume 1). On the other hand, other volumes (such as volume 8) have standalone chapters which are meant to be read on their own. Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then volumes like say, volume 3, could have as many as 5 or 6 translators all working at the same time. And since the chapters are all not connected together (theoretically?), this would make it easier on translators to some extent.

Of course, Kyon's infamous narrative style does need to be properly shared by all.

--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 22:08, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes you are correct, Volume 03 chapters are individual stories. It has already been decided that on volume 03, that all the translators are allowed to register one chapter.

Besides 03, 05 (is undecided yet. possibility is allow one translator to a "pair". Prologue & a corrosponding chapter), 06 & 08, the other chapters in the remaining volumes are more or less connected, and what i'am proposing is allowing more then two translators per volume, This means while the maximum of half a volume for any one translator, the volume will effectively split into three sections. So for example, 8 chapters are in one volume, one translator can register four of them, while two other translators can still register for two each.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:00, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== SOS-Dan's full name ==

I've seen Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan translated several ways in the first and second novels.

Book 1 Ch. 2 - The Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Bring More Excitement to the World

Book 1 Epilogue - Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade to Make the World More Exciting

Book 2 Prologue - Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade

Which, if any, are we going to use for a standard translation. As the name of the club the story revolves around, I think we should stick to one translation.

--[[User:SlashZero|SlashZero]] 16:34, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah, that's a good point, i agree we should decide on a standardlized term.

Personally I do like:

<cite>
Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade
</cite>

It seems to me the best one, plus it fits the "SOS" bit

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:51, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, that is the one I like least, as the "Suzumiya Hiruhi's Brigade" part is just tacked on the end and it doesn't flow at all well. I really do not think we should contort the translation just to get something with the letters S, O and S. An anonymous contributor changed it in a few places to that version a couple days ago and I reverted the changes (making the usage in Volume 3 consistant with v01c02 while I was at it). I think the way I laid out the naming section in v01c02 should demonstrate how the "SOS" abbreviation came from. If it seems necessary, we could repeat that in each of the other novels wherever the club name first gets explained or even put it in a translator's note.

:As for the other two, I do not have a very strong opinion. Perhaps a translator could weigh in on how they think the correct meaning can best be stated?

:I'll go remove the version of this question I put on [[Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2]], or rather, replace it with a link here. This really is a project-wide issue.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:41, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Despite it being "tacked on" as you mentioned Blckknght, I have to say that I am in favour of the current translation that Onizuka-gto suggested (i.e. ''Save our world by Overloading it with fun Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade''). This is probably mainly due to the fact that the translated version still fits the original acronym used in the novel. Moreover, based on my limited knowledge of Japanese, the current translation actually mirrors how odd the original sentence (that represents the acronym) sounds like.

A literal translation without considering the Japanese grammar would be: ''Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly''. Considering the obvious difference between English and Japanese, it would sound more like this: ''Suzumiya Haruhi's brigade of enjoying in order to uplift the world greatly''.

Based on that fact, I would think that the current translation best suits how silly the original name is for more reasons than the very meaning of the sentence (i.e. the odd sentence, words used and that it could be made into an acronym).

I very much think that we should stick with the current translation of but perhaps modify it slightly to make it seem a little more coherent. Here's my suggestion:

* '''Save our world by Overloading it with fun'':'' Suzumiya Haruhi's Brigade'''.

Hope that helps.

Oh and if you want to check, here's the original kanji (or so I think): 世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼みやハルヒの団

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:28, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Navigation ==

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/skins/monobook/main.css main.css] does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css here].

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

'''Proof of Concept:'''
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}
If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :)
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

:I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

:My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

:Thanks, [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], for finding the markup to make this work!

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

:Looks fine, have at it. :)
:By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?
:For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:
<pre>{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}</pre>

:-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]], 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps.
I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this.
I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g.
<nowiki>{{Navbox_Volume_1}}</nowiki>, at the end of each chapter. See [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page wikibooks.org] for some examples. --[[User:89.53.204.166|89.53.204.166]] 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Uh.... no comment?...
Computer technicalities is something I'm plain terrible at...

(I'll delete this post in a while.)
--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:31, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

== Solution to Partial Script Contributed ==

It has become apparent to me that some user wish to contribute portion of translated script, but on the other hand also do not wish to continue the chapter or be a project translator.
This is the case of [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] as many attempts to contact has resulted in no response and i can only conclude that s/he does not wish to join the Project Translator Team, at leased other users such as [[user:Hanunako|Harunako]] have given us notice as to how long they will be inactive and when s/he will planning to return to work on the project.

At the moment [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] has only registered Volume 03, "boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi" which is a single story chapter thus will not disturb the rest of the wolume by her/his absents, there might be still sometime for [[user:skythewood|skythewood]] to reply but i do not have any high hopes for such a situation.
However there is a real possibility that If a user contributes on a chapter that has connection chapters before a project translators does, they will register as usual, contributes and then never be heard again.
This is a problem because effectively they will tie up a volume, as by guideline rules only two translators are allowed per volume.

What I propose is that if a portion of script has been contributed to a chapter that has yet been signed up by a Project Translator, then their names will be shown on the corrosponding chapters to give credit.

But we will also allow a Project Translator to register for that chapters, in which case we will no longer accept partial translated scripts for.

Comments please.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 04:16, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Format guideline

2006-05-08T20:21:40Z

Kumarei: /* Correct English Terms */

This page came about to lay down some foundation Guidelines to assist Editors & Translators alike to create a consistent reading format though out all the novels, to ensure the best Haruhi experience.

This page will be updated to include all terms, formats notes and other points for this project, it should always reflect the joint agreements of all parties.

This does not mean the Translators will have to take it upon themselves to apply the guidelines. This guide will mainly affect Editors, and we stress to Translators not to take it upon themselves to change their habits or preferences that will hamper your progress.

In short let the Editors do all the hard work, while you lot can continue to concentrate on the Translating (^-^)/

But as this implies this is not a Rule. It is a Guide, and you will not be punished for not agreeing to it, but at the same time know that any edits which will not comform to this guide will be corrected by other Users.

I strongly advise that if you really do have an issue with some of these accepted points, that you please add your voice to the Discussion on the Talk page, before you edit.

----

== '''Suzumiya Haruhi Series Format Guidelines''' ==

This page is a style guide for Suzumiya Haruhi Project. The consensus of many Editors & Translators formed the conventions described here. Translated Chapters should heed these rules. Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes.

== '''Translators''' ==

*Work will be divided by Chapters per Volume

*You are required to register which Chapters you wish to work on

*Registration is on a "First Come, First Served" please register your intended chapters on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration Page]

*The maximum number of chapters you are recommended to work on is no more then half of any given volume

*Maximum number of Translators per volume is two
**'''There is a proposal to change this Guideline see [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Format_guideline#Proposal_to_revised_the_number_of_Translators_per_volume talk page]'''

*Maximum number of volumes you may be active on is one

*Do not worry about first drafts, it will be the Editors job to clean it up. Discussion between Editors and Translators are advised.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:51, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*The Registration page is not some Binding Contract of "I must do the work I put down here". Choices put down here are negotiable between translators (including their own selves who signed up for it).

[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:01, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform [[User:Thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] and the designated Project Translator of the intend Chapters as shown on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration page] before any major contribution

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:33, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== '''Editors''' ==

*Editors are required to justify in the related chapter Talk page for Major Edits. Which could be considered disputable

*Always fill in the summary box on all non-minor edits

*Editors are advised to communicate with Translators for any Major Edits

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:32, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Anonymous Editors ====

*Anonymous Editors are Welcome, but please note that any large edits, which are considered further then grammar and spelling corrections, must be justified in the Discussion page before hand.

*Anonymous Editors be aware that your edits will be reverted if you have not complied to the above points, this is to prevent percieved vandalism.

*Registration is free, and we strongly advised that you do, in order to acknowledge worthy contributions

*Always fill in the summary box after all edits, one word is better then nothing.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Dialogue and Narration Syntax Section ==

*No parenthesis (a.k.a. inverted commas/double quotation marks) for when Kyon's "inner dialogue leaks out"

*No-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line

*Use original tenses for Kyon's narration. For cases where this seems awkward, apply the following rule of thumb:
:Prologue and Vol 1 Ch 1 are Kyon's Backstory telling, therefore should default to Past Tense. Ch 2+ are Kyon living out his experiences, so default to Present Tense (and secondarily to Immediate Past Tense).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 15:46, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities. In Chinese, as the grammatical structure is similar, the punctuations are carried over. However, in English, Kyon's sarcastic and witty remarks actually works better ending with a fullstop than with an exclamation mark, since sarcasm in English is very subtle, the reader can sense it even without the exclamation mark.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 14.20, 24 April 2006 (BST)

*Please use past tense for all of Kyon's narration as with most of what I've read. This is the case for the latter chapters of volume one. The translators seem to use present tense for Kyon's constant tsukkomi (commentary), which is great. Perhaps the error that I correct the most is tense agreement within the same paragraph or sentence.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 04:17, 27 April 2006 (EST)

With respect to what Kinny Riddle wrote: ''Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities.''
In my opinion, proper sarcasm does not always need to be accentuated by adding exclamation marks, which normally connotates heightened emotions, be it surprise, happiness, anger .etc
Basically, sarcasm is intended to be a witty ridicule which, more often than not, is fairly subtle.

e.g. "I watched Amy perform at the concert the other day." I mentioned
"Oh really? I heard she wants to become a professional singer one day. How was her singing?" Mavis queried
"Oh she does, does she? In which case, I shall remember to wish her all the best the next time I see her." I smiled.

Thus, not all of Kyon's sarcastic remarks or thoughts should have exclamations added to them but should be worded in a similarly sarcastic fashion, without adapting the meaning of the original text as much as possible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:00, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Correct English Terms ==

In this section we list the agreed English terms for specificly important words.

* '''Due to the nature of this website, and the nationality of the majority of Editors & Readers the standard spelling lexicon for this project will be based upon American English as defined by the Fourth Edition of the [http://www.bartleby.com/61/ American Heritage Dictionary]'''

*Those who are fluent in Native English who find difficulty in use of correct American English Spelling can find help with the online [http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/ American-British & British-American Dictionaries] (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:32, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

*Yuki's Alien Group

Integrated Data Sentient Entity/Information Synthesis Thought Entities

*Itsuki's Supernatural Group
"Kikan", "機関" = "Organization"

Note: It has been conjectured by that the name of Itsuki's group is a reference by the author to the "Instrumentality of Man" in the science fiction classics by Cordwainer Smith.

* "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

* "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

* "Aliens, Time Travellers, Sliders and Espers" as opposed to say "futurian" or "out-of-worlder"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:26, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

* "Classified information" rather than "No comment" for information Asahino is unable to tell

*Haruhi's Mental Manifestation
"Shinjins"= "Avatars"

Note: Literally meaning "God like Being", Shinjins reflect Haruhi's mental condition; it can be likened to the "Angels" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion", whose mental boundaries are physical, unlike humans who keep mental conflicts within their organic minds. Haruhi's mental state manifests within an alternative "Sealed Reality" on earth to vent her cognitive dissonance.

*Name of the alternative reality Haruhi's mental state appears
"Heisa Kuukan"= "Sealed Reality"

Note: This is where the "Avatar" of Haruhi manifests itself to vent her cognitive dissonance. It is literally a parallel reality effectively locked within a region on earth. While physical landmarks such as buildings, streetlights, and roads are present and are frequently attacked by Haruhi's "Avatar" in this alternate reality, no humans are ever present. This environment is colored in a uniform shade of grey, and only members of the "Organization" can enter this "Sealed Reality".

==Common Japanese Terms==

The following terms will be considered well known enough to be used raw (without translation) - they'll be linked to a "Translator's Notes/Reference" section (to be discussed).

'''-san, -senpai, etc'''

:Japanese Honorifics are well known (note the spelling of "-se'''n'''pai" - not "-se'''m'''pai") though of course we should mention them in a Reference section in case someone happens to be unfamiliar.

'''Moe'''

:While its exact definition could be debated on, "turn-on factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. It sounds a bit clunky in regular conversation though, so we'll use "Moe" in the text and link to another Translation Note explaining it.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:03, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

**'''Translator Notes:'''

Se''m''pai is not necessarily wrong. I remember in my Japanese-classes that sometimes the ''n'' sound becomes an ''m'' before certain sounds. Examples like te''m''pura, shi''m''bun. When written, it is spelled with an ''n'', since the written ''m'' doesn't exist in Japanese, but it's pronounced with a ''m'' sound. An English analogy would be Leicester, prounounced as "Lester" and not "Ley-ces-ter", Warwick pronounced as "War-rick" and not "War-wick".

As for why I used "turn-on factor", as not everyone who reads the translation is familiar with otaku terminology, and I don't want to leave them out of it.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 00:11, 29 April 2006 (HKT)

Format guideline

2006-05-08T20:20:28Z

Kumarei: /* Correct English Terms */

This page came about to lay down some foundation Guidelines to assist Editors & Translators alike to create a consistent reading format though out all the novels, to ensure the best Haruhi experience.

This page will be updated to include all terms, formats notes and other points for this project, it should always reflect the joint agreements of all parties.

This does not mean the Translators will have to take it upon themselves to apply the guidelines. This guide will mainly affect Editors, and we stress to Translators not to take it upon themselves to change their habits or preferences that will hamper your progress.

In short let the Editors do all the hard work, while you lot can continue to concentrate on the Translating (^-^)/

But as this implies this is not a Rule. It is a Guide, and you will not be punished for not agreeing to it, but at the same time know that any edits which will not comform to this guide will be corrected by other Users.

I strongly advise that if you really do have an issue with some of these accepted points, that you please add your voice to the Discussion on the Talk page, before you edit.

----

== '''Suzumiya Haruhi Series Format Guidelines''' ==

This page is a style guide for Suzumiya Haruhi Project. The consensus of many Editors & Translators formed the conventions described here. Translated Chapters should heed these rules. Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes.

== '''Translators''' ==

*Work will be divided by Chapters per Volume

*You are required to register which Chapters you wish to work on

*Registration is on a "First Come, First Served" please register your intended chapters on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration Page]

*The maximum number of chapters you are recommended to work on is no more then half of any given volume

*Maximum number of Translators per volume is two
**'''There is a proposal to change this Guideline see [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Format_guideline#Proposal_to_revised_the_number_of_Translators_per_volume talk page]'''

*Maximum number of volumes you may be active on is one

*Do not worry about first drafts, it will be the Editors job to clean it up. Discussion between Editors and Translators are advised.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:51, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*The Registration page is not some Binding Contract of "I must do the work I put down here". Choices put down here are negotiable between translators (including their own selves who signed up for it).

[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:01, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform [[User:Thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] and the designated Project Translator of the intend Chapters as shown on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration page] before any major contribution

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:33, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== '''Editors''' ==

*Editors are required to justify in the related chapter Talk page for Major Edits. Which could be considered disputable

*Always fill in the summary box on all non-minor edits

*Editors are advised to communicate with Translators for any Major Edits

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:32, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Anonymous Editors ====

*Anonymous Editors are Welcome, but please note that any large edits, which are considered further then grammar and spelling corrections, must be justified in the Discussion page before hand.

*Anonymous Editors be aware that your edits will be reverted if you have not complied to the above points, this is to prevent percieved vandalism.

*Registration is free, and we strongly advised that you do, in order to acknowledge worthy contributions

*Always fill in the summary box after all edits, one word is better then nothing.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Dialogue and Narration Syntax Section ==

*No parenthesis (a.k.a. inverted commas/double quotation marks) for when Kyon's "inner dialogue leaks out"

*No-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line

*Use original tenses for Kyon's narration. For cases where this seems awkward, apply the following rule of thumb:
:Prologue and Vol 1 Ch 1 are Kyon's Backstory telling, therefore should default to Past Tense. Ch 2+ are Kyon living out his experiences, so default to Present Tense (and secondarily to Immediate Past Tense).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 15:46, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities. In Chinese, as the grammatical structure is similar, the punctuations are carried over. However, in English, Kyon's sarcastic and witty remarks actually works better ending with a fullstop than with an exclamation mark, since sarcasm in English is very subtle, the reader can sense it even without the exclamation mark.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 14.20, 24 April 2006 (BST)

*Please use past tense for all of Kyon's narration as with most of what I've read. This is the case for the latter chapters of volume one. The translators seem to use present tense for Kyon's constant tsukkomi (commentary), which is great. Perhaps the error that I correct the most is tense agreement within the same paragraph or sentence.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 04:17, 27 April 2006 (EST)

With respect to what Kinny Riddle wrote: ''Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities.''
In my opinion, proper sarcasm does not always need to be accentuated by adding exclamation marks, which normally connotates heightened emotions, be it surprise, happiness, anger .etc
Basically, sarcasm is intended to be a witty ridicule which, more often than not, is fairly subtle.

e.g. "I watched Amy perform at the concert the other day." I mentioned
"Oh really? I heard she wants to become a professional singer one day. How was her singing?" Mavis queried
"Oh she does, does she? In which case, I shall remember to wish her all the best the next time I see her." I smiled.

Thus, not all of Kyon's sarcastic remarks or thoughts should have exclamations added to them but should be worded in a similarly sarcastic fashion, without adapting the meaning of the original text as much as possible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:00, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Correct English Terms ==

In this section we list the agreed English terms for specificly important words.

* '''Due to the nature of this website, and the nationality of the majority of Editors & Readers the standard spelling lexicon for this project will be based upon American English as defined by the Fourth Edition of the [http://www.bartleby.com/61/ American Heritage Dictionary]'''

*Those who are fluent in Native English who find difficulty in use of correct American English Spelling can find help with the online [http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/ American-British & British-American Dictionaries] (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:32, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

*Yuki's Alien Group

Integrated Data Sentient Entity/Information Synthesis Thought Entities

*Itsuki's Supernatural Group
"Kikan", "機関" = "Organization"

Note: It has been conjectured by that the name of Itsuki's group is a reference by the author to the "Instrumentality of Man" in the science fiction classics by Cordwainer Smith.

* "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

* "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

* "Aliens, Time Travellers, Sliders and Espers" as opposed to say "futurian" or "out-of-worlder"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:26, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

*Haruhi's Mental Manifestation
"Shinjins"= "Avatars"

* "Classified information" rather than "No comment" for information Asahino is unable to tell

Note: Literally meaning "God like Being", Shinjins reflect Haruhi's mental condition; it can be likened to the "Angels" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion", whose mental boundaries are physical, unlike humans who keep mental conflicts within their organic minds. Haruhi's mental state manifests within an alternative "Sealed Reality" on earth to vent her cognitive dissonance.

*Name of the alternative reality Haruhi's mental state appears
"Heisa Kuukan"= "Sealed Reality"

Note: This is where the "Avatar" of Haruhi manifests itself to vent her cognitive dissonance. It is literally a parallel reality effectively locked within a region on earth. While physical landmarks such as buildings, streetlights, and roads are present and are frequently attacked by Haruhi's "Avatar" in this alternate reality, no humans are ever present. This environment is colored in a uniform shade of grey, and only members of the "Organization" can enter this "Sealed Reality".

==Common Japanese Terms==

The following terms will be considered well known enough to be used raw (without translation) - they'll be linked to a "Translator's Notes/Reference" section (to be discussed).

'''-san, -senpai, etc'''

:Japanese Honorifics are well known (note the spelling of "-se'''n'''pai" - not "-se'''m'''pai") though of course we should mention them in a Reference section in case someone happens to be unfamiliar.

'''Moe'''

:While its exact definition could be debated on, "turn-on factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. It sounds a bit clunky in regular conversation though, so we'll use "Moe" in the text and link to another Translation Note explaining it.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:03, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

**'''Translator Notes:'''

Se''m''pai is not necessarily wrong. I remember in my Japanese-classes that sometimes the ''n'' sound becomes an ''m'' before certain sounds. Examples like te''m''pura, shi''m''bun. When written, it is spelled with an ''n'', since the written ''m'' doesn't exist in Japanese, but it's pronounced with a ''m'' sound. An English analogy would be Leicester, prounounced as "Lester" and not "Ley-ces-ter", Warwick pronounced as "War-rick" and not "War-wick".

As for why I used "turn-on factor", as not everyone who reads the translation is familiar with otaku terminology, and I don't want to leave them out of it.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 00:11, 29 April 2006 (HKT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-08T20:16:01Z

Kumarei: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging ''ga''. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he already was talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

''I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."''

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-08T20:15:17Z

Kumarei: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging [i]ga[/i]. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he already was talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

''I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."''

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-05-08T20:07:02Z

Kumarei: /* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ====
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would look like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ====

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

==== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he already was talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

''I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."''

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ====
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ====
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

==== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter6

2006-05-08T16:49:14Z

Kumarei: /* ESP? */

== Birthmark ==

Hmmm ... I kind of like the more mature and less shy Asahina. And ZOMG she smexed Kyon?! o__O

== Some notes on the first section ==
I'm not skilled in English enough to edit the text itself, so I write down here differences or something I noticed comparing the original novel with the translation. (including two-bite characters)

The first sentence
:As with yesterday, today I found yet another letter inside my shoe locker.
:その懸念事項は封筒の形をして昨日に引き続き俺の下駄箱に入っていた。

Later, the third (?) paragraph
:There, on a piece of paper with smilies symbols all over it, were written the following words.
:''I will be waiting for you in the club room during lunch break''.
:Mikuru-chan
:印刷された少女キャラのイラストが微笑む便箋の真ん中に、
:『昼休み、部室で待ってますみくる』
The fifth or sixth paragraph
:I never want to go through such life-threatening situations again.
:ほいさと出かけて行って、また生命の危機に直面するのは御免こうむりたい。
-[[User:59.143.134.204|59.143.134.204]] 01:46, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

== Notes on the second section ==
Differences I noticed comparing the novel and translation. Some of them are very subtle.

:After the fourth session, I was surrounded by Taniguchi, staring at me with meaningful eyes;...
:四時限が終わるや俺は、休み時間の間から意味深な視線を送ってくる谷口に話しかけられたり一緒に弁当食べようと国木田が近寄ったり職員室に行って朝倉の引っ越し先を調べようとかハルヒが言い出す前に、弁当も持たずに教室から脱出した。部室まで早歩き。 (Kyon wasn't surrounded by Taniguchi or others)
The third paragraph
:In three minutes, I arrived at the club room door. I knocked first.
:"Please come in."
:三分とかからず、俺は文芸部室の前に立つ。とりあえずノック。
:「あ、はーい」
-[[User:59.143.134.204|59.143.134.204]] 02:04, 29 April 2006 (PDT)
Next,
:It was Asahina's voice, there was no doubt about it. Alright, I could relax and go in!
:確かに朝比奈さんの声だった。間違いない。俺が朝比奈さんの声を聞き間違えるわけがない。どうやら本物だ。安心して、入る。 ("I cannot misunderstand her voice.")

:She wore a white blouse and a black mini-skirt,...
:白いブラウスと黒のミニタイトスカートをはいている髪の長いシルエット。 (A silouhette with long hair in a white blouse and...)
Next paragraph,
:But why did she resemble Asahina so much?
:しかしそれでもなお、彼女は朝比奈さんとウリ二つだった。何もかもが。
Later,
:She looked surprised for a while, then smiled and winked her eyes, shaking her shoulders.
:その人は可笑しそうに目を細めて肩を震わせた。 (she is not surprised in the original text)
Two paragraphs later,
:Looking at the beauty standing ahead of me, I realized how beautiful she'd grown.
:朝比奈さんが大人になったらこんな感じの美人になるだろうなというそのまんまな美人がここにいた。 (The beauty standing ahead of me was exactly the one that I would assume Asahina would be when she is grown up.)
-[[User:59.143.134.204|59.143.134.204]] 02:30, 29 April 2006 (PDT)
:Though I was kinda forced into seeing her change when she dressed as a bunny girl a while ago,...
:そんな際どい部分まで見ることが出来たのは、バニーガールのコスプレをしていた時と、不可抗力で着替えを覗いてしまった時くらいだが、 (Kyon had two kinds of situations he could have seen the birthmark)
:While I was thinking the above,
:俺がその旨を伝えると、 (When I told it to her,)

:...and she blushed furiously.
:それから急激に赤くなった。 (suddenly)

:Right now I can believe anything.
:今の俺はたいていのことは信じてしまえるような性格を獲得したので

:"Yes, the me from the past......right now, she's sitting with her classmates having lunch in the classroom."
:「はい。過去の……わたしから見れば過去のわたしは、現在教室でクラスメイトたちとお弁当中です」

:"Does that Asahina know you're here?"
:"No, after all, she is my past."
:「そっちの朝比奈さんはあなたが来ていることを……」
:「知りません。実際知りませんでしたし。だってそれ、わたしの過去だもの」(Asahina in the present time doesn't know another herself is here because the Asahina from the further future doesn't remember another herself was there then)
Several lines later,
:I looked at the slightly taller Asahina.
:俺は今や背丈のそう変わらない朝比奈さんを見つめた。 (Here the original expression is a bit ambiguous: does this mean the grown-up Asahina is nearly as tall as Kyon?)

:No......it's more serious than that.
:それではないんです。もっと……そうですね、 (The older Mikuru does not explicitly say Kyon will face a more serious situation)
A few lines later,
:I used to wear this often.
:よくこんなの着れたなあ、わたし。 ("How could I wear something like this?" or "I can't believe I could wear such a thing!" or the like?)
Three lines later,
:Some people are just born to have costumes worn on them.
:何を着ても似合う人というのはいるものだ。試しに訊いてみる。 (plus the last sentence.)

:She said with a weak sigh.
:鈴虫のため息のような声。 (suzumushi...a cricket?)
And after ''Asahina turned and shook her hair out, then gave a seductive smile, "No comment~."'' the section ends (two lines of blank in the original novel).

-[[User:59.143.134.204|59.143.134.204]] 03:12, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

==== On Haruhi's mental state ====
The original text was "they create a see-saw conflict within her heart". I changed that to "they create cognitive dissonance", which is the formal psychological description for the phenomenon.

That's the only non-grammar/structure edit I made from 20% to 70%.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:39, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

If it was anyone else saying those lines, I'd think "cognitive dissonance" was a hopelessly overblown phrase for a high school student to use. But seeing as it is Koizumi speaking, I think that phrase strikes exactly the right note.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:20, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

* Interesting, I admit this does sound better, although I can forsee problems that people will have trouble understanding the meaning, but i have to conceed that we shouldn't treat the readers that they are not intelligent to understand these scientific terms, and if not will look to discover what it means themselves.

But I do feel that if people do have complaints, then please voice them here, as i realise that it will be unfair to force people sought out meanings of words when we can easily provide some simple additional notes.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

== PDF? ==

Is there any chance that we may see Haruhi in PDF format? It would be a lot easier to print... (of course, I fully intend to also buy the novels when they arrive in English (and they will...).

---------
Unlikely. This is a translation project by fans, to be taken down when copyright is exercised, not a e-book distribution thing. You can, of course, make your own pdf files with Adobe.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 15:35, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

== ESP? ==

I've noticed in the text a few places (including at least once in this chapter) where Koizumi replies to Kyon's unvoiced thoughts. Is that really what is happening, or are there just some accidentally missing quotation marks? I know his commentary sometimes "covers up" real dialog, but in conversations with Koizumi is seems to happen more than usual.

The case I noticed just now is at the very end of Chapter 6:

:The car stopped, and as I was about to step out, he spoke again,

:"Please pay attention to Suzumiya-san's actions. Her supposed mentally stable state has now begun to have signs of rapid change. It's been quite a while since something like today has happened."

:Even if I did observe, she'd still become like that, isn't it so? [Note: no quotation marks on this line]

:"Frankly, I don't know either. But I find it to be a good idea to leave everything to you, since some of my companions tend to think things way too complicatedly."

Perhaps this is just a very subtle way of showing that Koizumi has some "ESP" powers that Kyon has not noticed yet. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't an artifact introduced in the translation and typing process.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 21:47, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Sometimes the missing quotations deal with Kyon's thoughts, sometimes they're his dialogue. The author lets the reader determine it by context. I think this may have been for two reasons: 1) To get the reader closer to Kyon, and 2) to allow the author to have Kyon say something, then have a "Or that was what I was going to say..." line afterwards.

Since it's repeated often enough to constitute a style, and the confusion it causes doesn't change between Japanese and English, it should probably be translated the way it is. You get used to it after a few chapters.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 12:46, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-05-08T16:30:01Z

Kumarei: /* Syntax Error in Sql Statement XD */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

=== Haruhi's Self-Introduction ===
Specifically: ''If there are any aliens, time travellers, out-of-worlders and espers, come look for me!'' is different from thelastguardian's version in Chapter 1: ''If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all.''

As this phrase is such an important one, we should probably agree upon a translation that fits with how we describe Yuki, Mikuru and Itsuki in the other chapters too: Alien, Time Traveller and Esper? Should out-of-worlders be put as "Dimension Hoppers" or "Sliders" while we're at it?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:59, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...well in the official SHnY wiki article they state "sliders" as well ,as it seems to be a generally accepted word for dimensional traveller.

Come to think of it ,we got aliens, espers and time travellers....does this mean theres gonna be a slider too? (O_o)?

But yeah, i think in the general terms, yuki should be referred to as the "alien", Mikuru as the Time Traveller, as for Itsuki....mmm...tricky, i would personally go for esper as its been mentioned here, and it's a easy route for continuality.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:29, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, then I guess we'll use "Sliders" and go change the above phrase in both Ch 1 and 5. I'll do it in a bit if someone doesn't do it first.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 20:46, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

=== The ecchi moment with Nagato Yuki ===
I know this isn't crucial to the story, but it's a fun moment, and I'd really appreciate it if a translator could clarify exactly what happened with Kyon getting into those compromising situations with Nagato Yuki. I'm finding it hard to visualize.
# One moment he's trying to help her up.
# The next, he's trying to carry her.
# The next, it looks as he were laying her down. ''(Ok, I do understand this transition.)''
# The next, she's resting on his chest, and he's lost in thought, so he doesn't notice.
#* So is he lying down with her on his chest right now? Do the books describe this very well?

Can't wait to see this animated, if they do.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:20, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

The way I see it: She's on the floor and takes Kyon's hand to pull herself up. Kyon reaches down to further assist her, shifting to Carry position. Taniguchi interruption - from his POV, it SEEMS that Kyon is laying her down, when he's not (he's just frozen in position). Kyon resumes picking up Yuki and then gets lost in thought. Yuki regenerates while resting on his chest - presumably also in his arms or perhaps just leaning on him while standing herself.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:23, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. They're also fairly creative, but the original word itself doesn't really imply these sort of things.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization", "Agency", "Council" (in rough order of preference).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

sheesh. i've done so many backpeddling i might as well just run backwards or something, but anyway, after giving it a run about in my head. "Council" doesn't have the same ring, and neither does "Agency". Which gets me back to square one.
dammit.

But Cruzz has a point, it's really just a simple word, but we all trying to find some deeper meaning into it.
After all this, i'm beginning to think its better we just left it as it is.
But i still don't like "instrumentality". heh.

But i can go with "complex" or even "Manifold" or..ok. i'll stop. just the first one. really.
no really. unless you like the other one?
arrgh.
Someone vote before i change my mind.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 22:14, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

=== 27th April, Deadline for this Debate to be concluded ===

ok. i hate to say this, but i'm gonna give this one more day, that is until it's the 27th, i don't want this to drag on, so thats the deadline for any other suggestion or aye/nay votes.
After that we count the votes, and leave it at that.
Which means though I loath to say it, if no one else put another suggestion or nay votes.
FoN's "instrumentality" gets the spot. dammit.
someone, anyone. help. \(;_;)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:12, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Let me make it easier for you: Although I favour "The Intrumentality", I think "The Organization" ought to be our compromise. I have a feeling it is the option that best suits everybody's idea, and which stays closest to the original.

If anyone ever has the chance to find out from Tanigawa-sensei, directly or indirectly, whether the name was (as I think) intended as a nod to Cordwainer Smith's "Instrumentality of Man", I want to know. But for now, I think "The Organization" is the phrase to stick with.

(I kind of liked "The Encephalon", though -- it would look great on a business card: "F. On, Supreme Inquisitor, The Encephalon". Groovy...)

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, then how about this: use "The Organisation" as our offical term throughout the text, but leave a footnote/reference note pointing to the "Translator's Notes/References" section (wherever they'll be) where we mention our thought of "Instrumentality" and the rest of FON's posts above. It's indeed nice to make note of references but the English equivalent seems slightly unwieldly to be used in 'everyday field talk'.

Heck, it may even be that the group's name is something different and more elegant, but because it's a nuisance to say it in full each time the field agents simply refer it as The Organisation - much easier for other people (read: Kyon) to understand too.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:31, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

It's really quite confusing if you have to use "The Organization" in lines like "So this organization of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?" This creates unnecessary repetition, which was why I used 'Consortium'. Because in the original text, "organization" is "souseki" while "kikan" is Koizumi's group.

As for the other alternatives, while "Instrumentality" sounds long and bulky, with a whopping six syllables, it's certainly easier for the reader to understand what it is than "Encephalon". Because when I read "kikan", I knew what it meant right away.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 22:26, 26 April 2006 (HKT)

I can go with organisation, but i can see your point Kinny, but in that case you mentioned all you have to do is change the words, i.e.

"So this '''group''' of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?"

like so.

oh i like the footnote thing too, just link it to the format style guideline on the correct terms, and add a nte under it or something. saves adding the same footnote to each individual chapters.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:58, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

"Kikan Kakei Keizai Kenkyu" = The Institute for Research on Household Economics... So "Institute" ?? my 2 cents...

*
At the moment, its on "organisation"

But "Institutes" not that bad.....

it does sound better then "organisation"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:51, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Nah, I still prefer Organisation to Institute - the latter doesn't quite sound right and I get the impression it's not so Global from such a word. I can go with it, but my vote's still on Organisation.

And of course, the above line can be changed to something like "''So this group/association of yours, The Organization, what does it do?''"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:17, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Hi, newcomer here giving my two cents:

How about the word '''"order"'''? '''"Order"''' carries a connotation of covertness and "cultishness", which might be what we're looking for here. It implies that the group exists for a special purpose -- that they're mere instruments or disciples serving a greater cause.

The thing I don't like about '''"order"''' though is that it also carries religious undertones.

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 14:55, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, "order" for me, doesn't seem to fit.

it seems to me that "organisation" is the best fit,
Sounless three other users support an alternative we will be back to deadlock, but hopefully it will not come to that and we will finally have a solution to this.
Just pasted 2300hours UTC gentlemen. Times ticking, i'll be back to check on this before it's midnight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:13, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Guess it's decided then.

"Organisation" it is.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:08, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Syntax Error in Sql Statement XD ==

i think there should be a _ between continuity code as it's an syntax error X_X
WHERE code=information should be WHERE code='information'
um.. that should be it XD

SELECT continuity_code
FROM databank
WHERE code='information'
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING END_MODE

---------

It seems it has been changed again... however the quotes around information weren't added and the condition PERSONAL NAME Asakura Ryouko was added.

SELECT continuity, code
FROM databank
WHERE code=information
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING end_mode
PERSONAL NAME Asakura Ryouko

In any case, in SQL syntax there is no such thing as a PERSONAL NAME modifier (and in any case, Asakura Ryouko would have to be enclosed between quotes). The usage of HAVING is incorrect as well, since the HAVING must be used in conjuction with a GROUP BY statement (which is not present) and it must be followed by a condition (normally an arithmetic one)...however it is such a trivial issue that it might not be worth correcting, but what do other people think about it? Was it like that in the original version? If that's the case, it might not be worth correcting
-[[User:Proto|Proto]] 1:14, 1 May 2006 (Central)

Odd, I'm looking at the original text, and it seems to be more like this:

SELECT serial_code
FROM database
WHERE code='data'
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING terminate_mode

"Target name Asakura Ryoko, hostility confirmed[...]"

I'm going to make the change, but if it seems wrong, feel free to change it back.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 12:27, 8 May 2006 (EST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi

2006-05-08T04:55:44Z

Kumarei: /* Differentiating Kyon's dialogue */

== Reviews from Readers ==

Don't forget to sign your comments! (^^;)>

==== Haruhi FOREEEVVEEER ====

hey mates! thanks for all your work!

Just want to tell you we appriciate what your doing, for all use dis-lingo haruhiist!

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:57, 18 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Thanks ====

I love the story so far. Thanks a lot~

==== Well Done ====

I've finished reading volume 1 of your translations and I must say that you guys are really hard working. Good job getting them done. The quality and readibility of them translations really shows. Keep up the good work!

==== Thank you ====

I'm greatly impressed by the speed at which you are translating this. Almost goes to prove the Haruhi-craze that has taken us by storm. Admirable work.

==== you guys are the best ====
thank you very much !!!!
You 0wn !

----

== Kyon's Tenses ==

Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.

*please refer to http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Format_guideline

for the guidelines.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 18:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Regrading the format of Baka-Tsuki Wiki ==

I am not really a fan of adding all those volumes' names into the "Finished works" part as it might make others think that we(the translators/editors) have it all planned out.
Therefore I am going to move the volume titles into another section of the page.

That being said, if any of you want to translate a particular volume (doesn't have to be in numerical order), you are welcome to do so.

Those aside. I am currently trying to find the best format for this wiki. Thus please do not edit the main pages excessively for the next few days.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 20:54, 18 April 2006 (PDT)

I agree that we may be making this look more "professional" than we want to. There is always a danger of being ''too'' professional, if you see what I mean. Meanwhile, I've added a page on [[Tanikawa Nagaru]] with some biographical data and a bibliography.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:42, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

If you are referring to the edits I've made to a couple of the main pages, I just find it much easier to be able to click "Community portal" on the sidebar to go back to the index then to have to go to the main page and click the link. That and I don't like how external links look.
--[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 04:38, 20 April 2006 (PDT)

== As for the tenses problem ==

''I can't decide. As you are probably aware, there are some parts that are more suitable with passive voice, while others are plainly narrarated in past tense.'' - I on AS forum

I will leave it at the translators' discretion for now until we come to a general consensus.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 20:56, 18 April 2006 (PDT)

: I think when Kyon is relating to a specific image that is depicted in the novel, he is more likely to talk in the present tense (such as when he makes an aside comment or explanation aimed at the audience). It sounds like a way for the author to immerse the reader in Kyon's environment. Oh, and I don't think using past tense for Kyon's musings of Haruhi's personality is proper since it implies that Haruhi is now different from how she was in the past. There are moments such as when Kyon considers his outlook on life where using the past tense seems obvious. I'm of the opinion of mixing past/present tense in consideration of the Kyon's current focus (Haruhi, dialogue, life outlook, audience aside, etc.). Overall, I think The Melancholy of Haruhi novel reads best when rendered as a very descriptive play.

: As for the passive/active voice, I'm only making changes where I think the text reads too rough or awkward in the wording. That's some ambiguous criteria, but it's all I have to go by with no special training. -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:59, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

::Personally, in the proofreadings I've been doing, I would just change it to past tense if it is obvious Kyon is talking about something in the past. If it isn't, I leave it as-is. I'm kind of unsure what to say about a standard for this, though. Some things are obviously present, while others - such as the example mentioned above (when Kyon talks about others' personalities and such) are more debateable. -- [[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 04:44, 20 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'll repeat what I suggested in the Ch 1 discussion page (we do need to decide where to talk about standardising styles - I agree with the Current Events idea):

::''I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.'' --[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:02, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Differentiating Kyon's dialogue ==
From what Thelastguardian tells me, Kyon's dialogue is not contained in parathesis in the novel. This sounds like the author is trying to allow the reader to connect with Kyon on a more personal level by making him less a character in a story and more a familiar friend sharing a personal story. Of course, that makes for some confusing dialogue since his words are not differentiated from his inner thoughts. And even if we put parenthesis around his words, there are no ", said Kyon" or ", mumbled Kyon" like is found in most novels that I'm familiar with.

A solution that I believe will do nicely is to simply italicize Kyon's words throughout the novel. Thus, we are both maintaining the author's literary style and differentiating Kyon's words in a way not overly invasive of the original text.

--[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:48, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

That Kyon's dialogue isn't in parentheses, I took to mean that much of it was internal dialogue -- in effect, the only person Kyon is speaking to is the reader, as Kyon functions as narrator.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:44, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

: Not exactly. There are parts that make no sense if Kyon didn't say that line out loud. It goes something like this (just some random sentences).
: ''A: "But this can't be true!!"'' 
: ''B: Well, this is what is happening now!'' 
: ''A: "I don't care!"''

: You can almost say that the point of view of the story changed briefly in that dialogue.

: It is almost as if Kyon is talking to us, the reader, as well as the character inside the story.

: The script is littered with this kind of dialogues.
: --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 17:59, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

:It seems like there are parts of each. Just reading through it, I didn't see it as a big deal, though. You can usually tell what is and isn't internal dialogue by context. Also, I think there are parts that are supposed to make the reader think that Kyon said them, which then are followed up by lines like, "Or that was what I would have said." This effect would be ruined if Kyon's dialogue was highlighted.

:--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 0:53, 8 May 2006

== Editor section ==

While there are many contributing users, some stand out more then others so I have added a editor section to show who has been contributing more then three times.

That is my take, but perhaps we need a discussion on how many edits and the quality of them, to determines who should be mentioned here?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:15, 20 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standardlizing Script Format ==

Hello fellow Editors & contributors.

Lets open the debate on the topic of standardlize writing format.

While we all respect each translators scripting style, it has been general agreed by thelastguardian that it would be unwise for readers to experience different styles across each chapters, and he has suggested that a translater undertakes a volume each.

I personally find that this will only result in the same problems except it will be by volume to volume with each translators taking more time, and forcing the reader to take longer to change from one style to another as they will have grown familiar with each volume style.

I suggest we let the translators to get on with their jobs, and have the editors worry about it, let you lot standardlize it so that they will flow together.

lets find a compromise between all the translators styles, finding the easiest and less labour edit intense would be preferred.

I suggest those who have just recently join this projects, to read this thread at Animesuki.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=31120

We are hoping to form some sort guideline by the end of this, so please debate here, or on the animesuki thread mentioned above.

thanks.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 04:42, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Intriguing idea. I am of the same opinion, and, in fact, I was just opening a new section on Chapter 1's talk page for the discussion of odd-sounding phrases and how to make them sound more natural.
::
::In any case, though, it would be a good idea to have some standard for editors. Some issues have already been brought up here, but there seems to have been little actual discussion about them.
::
::--[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:50, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

great.

But now where should we discuss this? I think it would be better if we have some sort of page to debate this, perhaps in this page is not a good idea, as i image it will be quite intense. on the other hand to discuss it on each cha[ters indivdual page could lead to too many copies and transcripts to keep an eye on.

Why don't we take over the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Current_events current events] page to be the page for all debates from Editors & Translators on the formation of the guideline?

keep it all nice and tidy and allow this page to continues as a place for news and update information.

Why don't we move the points you have brought up already on chapter 01 and any other chapters that have these discussion to this page?

I've just sent a message to thelastguardian for his views before i do anything, but I don't really see any problems with it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:08, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: I'm in favor of keeping discussion wadded up in one page. Also, I say let the translators translate. Each translator can be responsible for not deviating too far in style from one another. [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:55, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

== Navigation ==
Question, should there be navigation for each chapter at the top and bottom? (Much like how I have navigation from the [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Illustrations|gallery]] to the [[Suzumiya_Haruhi|main menu]] or to the [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Prologue|Prologue]] chapter) 
-- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 20:33, 21 April 2006 EDT (GMT -4)

* lastguardian has agreed to a unified format guideline page.

So lets get started on it! \(^o^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:50, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== IRC channel? ==
Should we have an IRC channel for realtime discussion? Might make things faster compared to relying on the AnimeSuki forums as well as the wiki discussion board. -- [[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 19:54, 6 May 2006 EDT

==== Additional Complications ====

While it may seem like a simple solution with realtime discussion, not everyone is versed in IRC, or even bother with it, me included. I find it incredibly over complicated, and old, and i think that other users will also share my view.

If real-time is what you need, why don't you use something like MSN?

That is in my opinon a better compromise, as MSN also has a "chatroom" feature, but is alot more simple to access, for those who are not familiar with setting up on IRC.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:56, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

MSN doesn't let you idle 24/7 (or is bad at it), keep idiots out of the channel (especially since everyone is an "operator"), or do file transfers very well (8 KB/s limit, anyone?). Plus, I use Trillian, not the crappy MSN software that likes to pop-up every five seconds on my screen.

If you want to make IRC simple, we could always do Java IRC chatrooms. Just click and go. I can handle the "complicated" stuff that involves IRC channel moderation and such, if needed.

[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 22:11, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Is real-time discussion really necessary?

From my prospective, more doesn't necessary mean better.
I'm all for it if there is a real benefit in key areas that'll improve the project that the current system cannot provide.

At this moment I don't really see the justification, as not all Translators or certain Dedicated Editors are active every day.

While it is evident that certain discussions here do take their time to respond, I think its part of the Baka-Tsuki way, we don't take things so serious that we have the need to take this to real-time.
Everyone has a chance to reflect on their response, and at the same time give the project an atmosphere of laid-back, and most important, that this is a fun venture, that people have taken the time to do.

Something I really like about Baka-Tsuki (^^)/

Or have I got this all wrong?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:37, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter2

2006-05-08T04:00:11Z

Kumarei: /* The Fall of Hyperion */

== References & Translators Notes ==

=== Moe ===

While its exact definition could be debated on (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29 Wikipedia's entry]), "Turn-on Factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. Which direction you get 'turned on' can be varied: strong desire to protect and cuddle, "I so want to go out with him/her", fuzzy warmth at Omega cuteness - these are some possibilities all of which could fall under "Moe".

=== The Fall of Hyperion ===
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

: That is a reasonable edit in my book. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 22:57, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday. It's one powerful piece of writing. I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year. If you get the chance, go read it...

Eleutheria 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

I've read the entire series, both the two "Hyperion" stories, and the two "Endymion" sequelae. It's excellent, though the coherence of the story wavers a bit near the end. I believe that I'm not the only one of the "regulars" who has read it all.

Then again, I've read a ''lot'' of science fiction over the years.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 12:43, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I read the Fall of Hyperion today. Took me from lunch to 8 pm, since I wanted to soak in all of it. Rachel's exact timeline took some puzzling.

I'm now convinced that Nagato Yuki doesn't really read. Those thick books are for show. If she had got anything out of the Fall of Hyperion, she wouldn't still be so emotionless. She'd have realized the truth behind the Void Which Binds.

---[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:14, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Maybe. I think she probably reads them but doesn't really take in the deeper meaning of them.

It's a great series, though. I read it by chance in high school. Just picked it up because it looked interesting.

-- [[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 23:55, 7 May 2006

=== Doraemon ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doraemon Doraemon] is probably the most famous robotic cat in Japanese culture. And it does smile a lot, apparently.

From Wikipedia:
<cite>
:Doraemon possesses a four-dimensional pocket from which he can produce all manner of futuristic tools, gadgets and playthings from a future department store.
</cite>

This dovetails nicely with the image of Haruhi smiling as she pulls something devious out of her bag.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 17:23, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:Ooh, good spot yeah - forgot to write that down after the Reference system was implemented. And yes, Doraemon does smile a lot - with a big big mouth expression.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

== Current Translation Debates ==

==== I know it isn't right to criticize, but these two sure have a lot of free time on their hands! ====
I wonder if this might be better (or more idiomatically) phrased:

<cite>
:I know '''I'm not one''' to criticize...
</cite>

This has almost the same meaning, but I don't know if it's faithful enough to the original text. Any translator care to comment?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 00:47, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:That's a messy part of the English language, when non-grammatical things acquire meaning through usage.
:Literally,
:EX.1a
:<cite>
::I'm not one to criticize
:</cite>
:means
:EX.1b
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[of those people who you would normally expect]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:but in usage, it's come to also mean
:EX.1c
:<cite>
::I'm in no position to criticize.
:</cite>
:''(actually, the "correct" term is "I shouldn't be one to criticize", but correctness is for the British.)''
:Usage aside, though, the meaning you're going for is what makes the most sense in context.

:Actually, which of those two meanings did you mean? I had EX.1c in mind. ''(As I'm not a translator, I can only comment on the English/logical side of things.)''

:Great, now I'm confused. The way I see it, Kyon's wasting time in the clubroom too, so he's in no position to say that they have too much time on their hands. Which is the only meaning of the sentence that's in character. I mean, come on -- has he ever been afraid of letting loose with snarky comments before? When has he ever felt guilty about criticizing people?

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:12, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Aren't idiom's fun? EX.1c is what I would say the idiom "I'm not one to criticize" means, and it seems very appropriate for the situation (Kyon has a lot of free time on his hands too). I think I'll go ahead and make the change, but if any translators think the idiom says too much more than the original Japanese, we can put it back.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 16:01, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

:It was kind of sitting in the back of my head, and suddenly I realized that both interpretations of the term make sense grammatically. EX.1d (e.g. EX.1b) is the only one I've seen in stuffy academic works, but then again, academics use much more elaborate means of undermining the credibility of others.
:EX.1d
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[who is inclined]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:EX.1e
:<cite>
::I'm not one '''[who is qualified]''' to criticize
:</cite>
:So maybe English isn't as messy as I thought it was. Still, there's always "I could care less" (''should be "I couldn't"'') -- that one definitely bugs me.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:02, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

==== The SOS Brigade ====

This topic should be discussed at: [[Talk:Format guideline#SOS-Dan.27s_full_name]]

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:30, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Translation Discussions ==

==== "...... If I could never marry because of this, would you still marry me......?" ====

「・・・私がお嫁にいけなくなるようなことになったら、貰ってくれますか・・・？」

According to the [http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showtopic=1711607&st=625# detail analysis] of the original Japanese novel in MegaTokyo, the correct phase should be ''"Should something happen to me (that would keep me from marrying someone under a normal circumstance), will you marry me?"''

Blah I wish people(aka readers) would correct it when they notice a major mistake.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:00, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, quite literally, Asahina is saying:

"If something should happen so I cannot become a bride, will you take me?"

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:29, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

So...change it? (It's 3 o'clock am here and my brain is on auto mode. You decide.)

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Done. Oh, and it's just past noon here -- I'm on Central European Time (GMT+1).

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Layout and Style questions. ==

I'm trimming down a really big gap between the lines:

<cite>
:Very soon, I would find out.
</cite>
and
<cite>
:And that is to make an SOS Brigade website!
</cite>

It had been 10 blank lines. I'm about to reduce it to 5 like all of the section breaks, but I wanted to make a note of the change there was some reason for the extra big break at that location.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:34, 4 May 2006 (PDT)