Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Nutcase

2007-03-12T02:52:37Z

Nutcase: Lost in translation

== My editorial philosophy, FWIW ==

Preserved for ongoing consideration:

:As a ''personal'' preference, if I see something that is "very wrong" I try to correct it using the following methods, in this order: Change word forms (eg adverb<->adjective), Change word order, alter grammar and punctuation, add minor word (it/and/the etc), remove words. If it seems ''really'' off then usually there's a forum post about it and a consult with the original Japanese. Just my way of doing it, though. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 08:43, 11 January 2007 (PST)

I am taking a much more aggressively engaged approach to editing, in that I seriously consider changing anything that somehow disturbs my experience as a reader, everything from tiny typos to incomprehensible Japanese metaphors. Certain things, like British spellings and some idioms, Japanese words I'm familiar with and some nuances of comma usage, don't bother me so I ignore them. I also tread carefully around anything that seems like it might be part of the author's intent or the author's "voice." Last but not least, I'd prefer not to annoy any translators or editors working upstream. So far, nobody has indicated any annoyance, but only a fool squanders what is sure to be a finite spool of slack. I assume I've used up slack. I try to project an appropriate level of approachability and openness to feedback. Don't bite me, just growl a little or whatever.

== Lines I want to remember ==

Certain lines have an interest that transcends the particular context in which they arise.

:"Bitter smile" is, on it's face, an expression that invites multiple interpretations depending on context.

:Late in the story(Lone Mountain Syndrome) I noticed Koizumi observing that, "Eutopia and Dystopia are two sides of the same mirror." Hmmm...did he really say that? My ears always light up when I encounter such an interesting mixed metaphor.

:Seriously, it's a mistake to take my meticulousness as obsessiveness. To a hammer, everything is a nail, and to a guy with a microscope, everything has a lot of very interesting detail. Since the recognition of fractals, this has some interesting implications about what exactly I'm looking at. Wink

== "Squeamish" ==

To sum up other discussion, I took note of "squeamish" as a word appearing several times in the translation, usually inappropriately in my view. I theorized that it as a "placeholder," reflecting some sort of default interpretation of an underlying Japanese expression with multiple possible meanings. Discussion with Smidge204 on a particular instance from "Lone Island Syndrome" boils down to this:

"Does this mansion have a name?" Haruhi asked, Keiichi-san smiled squeamishly and answered, "Right now we haven't come up with one, if you have any suggestions for the name, I'm all ears."

Nutcase: Why would Keiichi-san be smiling in a "fastidious, easily disgusted way" at this point? Otherwise, he is portrayed as easy-going and tolerant. It's not congruent. "Wryly" is congruent.

Smidege204: The line in question is "ハルヒの問いに圭一さんは苦笑い" in which "苦笑い" means "bitter smile" - so wryly fits perfectly here :)

"Bitter smile" is, on it's face, an expression that invites multiple interpretations depending on context.

"Squeamish" is actually a good choice as a translator's default as long as it is understood to be a placeholder; it's easy to find and usually so incongruent that it obviously needs to be replaced when somebody gets around to it. The author's intention is going to be particularly nuanced exactly on this sort of point, so a translator may well want to bypass it while doing the heavy lifting part of the translation. One wants to finish framing before breaking out the planes and the sandpaper.

This is my view. Since it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, I have acted on this view, examining, with scalpel in hand, all examples of "squeamish." ;)

== Lone Mountain Syndrome ==

I did a very messy job of editing this chapter. It's embarrassing. Oh well, live and learn.

90% is just the usual clean-up stuff, uncontroversial. The entryway layout is somewhat more consequential. I do figure it for double doors as the best explanation for the mixed use of "gates" and "doors."

Another somewhat questionable point has to do with the "What's with you and Yuki" scene; at the end, I first changed "dull" eyes (can't possibly be right) to "brimming," but that seemed out of character - not out of the question, congruent with blinking, but still...so finally I downshifted to "soft." Probably impossible to distinguish "dull" and "soft" in the original Japanese without the context, and "dull" is just so wrong...

Late in the story I noticed Koizumi observing that, "Eutopia and Dystopia are two sides of the same mirror." Hmmm...did he really say that? My ears always light up when I encounter such an interesting mixed metaphor.

== Live A Live ==

This is the one story that I feel was substantially improved upon in the anime compared to the book. Of course the story as written has an unworkably long performance sequence for the anime, but set that aside. "God Knows" in particular is an actually great performance of an actually great song. Hirano Aya belts this one out of the park, and the animation did it justice. Beyond that, the reaction of the audience is more congruent. Audiences don't reward a stunningly great pop music performance with stunned silence. Also it's more in the realm of plausibility to get solid interpretations for two songs worked out in an hour, rather than trying to construct solid interpretations on the fly for several songs. Finally, I like how "God Knows" can be taken as a "confession." You don't have to read it that way, but I take it as a factor in Kyon's stunned expression.

In Volume2, I noticed on my second pass through that Kyon notes Haruhi humming various movie music time and again. This makes the Live A Live performance less magical wish fulfillment and more a plausible act. At least she is actively working the right parts of her brain. It's like her hitting a thousand balls before the baseball game - she may be fantastically talented, but she also steps up and does the work. This makes her much, much more interesting as a character for me. However, if you just want magical wish fulfillment, you can look past the work, as it's approached so playfully.

== Charmed at First Sight LOVER ==

This chapter includes an important scene between Koizumi and Kyon which pivots on this line:

「どっちがトムキャットだ」

currently interpreted as, "Who's the tomcat?" This is Kyon's response to Koizumi saying:

"Besides, you could still mess around with Suzumiya-san to reduce stress. Unfortunately, I do not have such a luxury."

What does this mean? In the context, Kyon could be, in essense, calling Koizumi a pussy - "Then who's your boyfriend?"; this was my first take. But take it a little further and this interpretation feels cross-threaded. Kyon doesn't make this kind of insult - he's prickly, not intrusively stabbing with his sarcasm. Also Kyon doesn't take Koizumi lightly. Plus having a tomcat boyfriend wouldn't necessarily be an obstacle.

It's more plausible that Kyon means that Koizumi is both bolder and more promiscuous/detached, and therefore better qualified to "mess around" with Haruhi. Kyon knows himself to not be a tomcat, and of course he is wary of having his heart ripped out. He is a bit envious of Koizumi's defenses. The main point of the scene is that Koizumi reveals some vulnerability to Kyon even through his mask. It ties in with the chronologically later "confession" Koizumi makes in Snow Mountain Syndrome, a confession of loyalty to the SOS Dan ahead of the Organization.

:No interpretation, that's exactly what it says :p It's quite clearly a stab at Koizumi's "ambiguous preferences"... he's not calling him a pussy - he's implying Koizumi is gay. (ie: Tomcat = un-neutered male cat / "Who's the tomcat?" = "Who's the guy you're fooling around with?") [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:54, 25 January 2007 (PST)

Ultimately I settled on a reading based on Harhuhi's threat earlier in the scene to exile Kyon with a salt fish in his mouth to fight for territory with other cats, i.e. it's an ambivalent bitter/sarcastic remark about who is more the outsider, primarily, with any implications about promiscuity/sexuality in the background.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:31, 16 February 2007 (PST)

== Editor Status, ==

Welcome to the editorial Staff,

I forgot to mention that continuous contribution to the wiki over a undisclosed period will automatically level you up.

Action speak louder then words. ;)

of course if you wish to decline you may do so, if you wish to accept just move your name on the Haruhi front page to the "active" group.

Thank you for your contribution and i hope you will continue to do so in the future.

Regards,

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:26, 15 February 2007 (PST)

As has been indicated earlier, this nominal status change may have little consequence, as I have been pretty much doing exactly what I want to do anyway; however, I appreciate it as an indication of "system health." It reduces cognitive dissonance. I'm still human enough to appreciate it on a personal level as well.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 05:56, 16 February 2007 (PST)

== Lost in translation ==

Here is a short paragraph from early in Vol8 Wandering Shadow

Current version
:I uttered this half-hearted response while continuing to watch the ball fly around the court.

:The opponent began her serve, and the ball traveled in an arc, before being projected upwards by the other side's setterFrom behind the 3-metre line, a girl clad in gym clothes ran forward, then lept high into the air. At the apex of her jump, the hitter raised her right arm, and viciously spiked the ball downwards. The angle was perfect, as the ball flew steeply down and landed in the corner of the opponents' court. A member from the volleyball club, who was acting as a stand-in referee, blew his whistle. A perfect back attack indeed.

Japanese original text (courtesy of Smidge)

:　俺は気のない相づちを打ちつつ、コートの上空を舞《ま》う白いバレーボールの行方《ゆくえ》を追う。相手の陣地《じんち》から山なりサーブで飛んできたボールは、放物線の落下点でレシーブされ、次にトスという手順を踏《ふ》んでほぼ垂直に上昇《じょうしょう》する。

:　そのボールを追うように、アタックラインの遥《はる》か手前から助走をつけてジャンプした体育着の女子が見事なまでの躍動《やくどう》感で右手を振《ふ》り下ろし、位置エネルギーと運動エネルギーのすべてを叩き込まれた気の毒なボールは、殺人スパイクとなって相手チームの二枚ブロックをはじき飛ばし、コートの角に吸い込まれた。完璧《かんぺき》なバックアタック、主審《しゅしん》役を務めるバレーボール部員が笛を吹《ふ》く。

With parenthetical pronunciation stuff stripped out (doesn't help Babelfish)

俺は気のない相づちを打ちつつ、
コートの上空を舞う白いバレーボールの行方を追う。
相手の陣地から山なりサーブで飛んできたボールは、
放物線の落下点でレシーブされ、
次にトスという手順を踏んでほぼ垂直に上昇する。

そのボールを追うように、
アタックラインの遥か手前から助走をつけてジャンプした体育着の女子が見事なまでの躍動感で右手を振り下ろし、
位置エネルギーと運動エネルギーのすべてを叩き込まれた気の毒なボールは、
殺人スパイクとなって相手チームの二枚ブロックをはじき飛ばし、
コートの角に吸い込まれた。
完璧なバックアタック、
主審役を務めるバレーボール部員が笛を吹く。

Translated phrase by phrase by Babelfish

As for we while striking the phase hammer which does not have the air,
The whereabouts of the white volleyball where it whirls the sky of coat are chased
As for the ball which becomes the mountain from the position of the partner and flies with serve
It is received in the falling point of parabola,
Stepping on the procedure, toss next, almost it rises vertically

: Way that ball is chased,
: Acquiring approach run from foreward the far of the attack line, the woman of the physical education arrival which jumps being, it shakes the right hand in, the beautiful raw stirring impression lowering
: As for the unfortunate ball which is hammered everything of position energy and kinetic energy
: Becoming the homicide spike, it repels two blocks of the opponent team, throwing
: It was sucked into the angle of coat
: Perfect back attack
: The volleyball staff who serves chief umpire part blows the whistle.

As for we while striking the phase hammer which does not have the air,
The whereabouts of the white volleyball where it whirls the sky of coat are chased we watched the volleyball as it flew around the court
As for the ball which becomes the mountain from the position of the partner and flies with serve
It is received in the falling point of parabola,
Stepping on the procedure, toss next, almost it rises vertically

: Way that ball is chased,
: Acquiring approach run from foreward the far of the attack line, the woman of the physical education arrival which jumps being, it shakes the right hand in, the beautiful raw stirring impression lowering
: As for the unfortunate ball which is hammered everything of position energy and kinetic energy
: Becoming the homicide spike, it repels two blocks of the opponent team, throwing
: It was sucked into the angle of coat
: Perfect back attack
: The volleyball staff who serves chief umpire part blows the whistle.

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow

2007-03-09T21:14:42Z

Nutcase: /* Opening scene narration frame */

=='''Translator's Notes'''==

==='''Rembrandt'''===

Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn (July 15, 1606– October 4, 1669) is generally considered one of the greatest painters and printmakers in European art history and the most important in Dutch history. His contributions to art came in a period that historians call the Dutch Golden Age (roughly coinciding with the seventeenth century), in which Dutch world power, political influence, science, commerce, and culture — particularly painting — reached their pinnacle.

"No artist ever combined more delicate skill with more energy and power," states Chambers' Biographical Dictionary. "His treatment of mankind is full of human sympathy" (J.O. Thorne: 1962).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rembrandt for more info

==='''Rubens'''===

Peter Paul Rubens (June 28, 1577 – May 30, 1640) was the most popular and prolific Flemish and European painter of the 17th century. He was the proponent of an exuberant Baroque style which emphasized movement, color, and sensuality.

More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Paul_Rubens

=== '''Shar Pei''' ===

The dog breed Shar Pei originated in China and has the distinctive features of deep wrinkles and a blue-black tongue. The name (沙皮, pinyin: shā pí) translates to "sand skin," not because of color but because of texture. As puppies, Shar Pei have lots of wrinkles, but as they mature, the wrinkles disappear as they "grow into their skin". The American Kennel Club did not recognize the breed until 1991.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shar_Pei

=== '''Tangut Inscriptions''' ===

By "Tangut Inscription on paper strips", Haruhi actually means charms, the type you usually see in chinese movies that are yellow and have red ink over them, which are commonly used to bind chinese vampires. Tangut is actually an ancient Tibetan language, and has no link whatsoever to chinese vampires. Haruhi is just speaking whatever pops into her mind.

Here's the link to the Tangut Language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangut_language

=== '''miko''' ===

There is no strict definition in English for miko, although "shrine maiden" is commonly used. Other terms that have been used as equivalents are prophet, medium, priestess, nun, witch, or sorceress. They are not actual priestesses, but can serve as clerics if needed.

For additional information and photos, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko

=== '''Hinamatsuri''' ===

Japanese "Doll Festival", or "Girl's Day" as it is affectionately known. It involves displaying a large set of ornamental dolls, which are also sometimes called "Princess Dolls".

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinamatsuri for more info and some pictures.

=== '''miko-mai''' ===

A ceremonial dance performed by miko.

=== '''Scottish Highlands White Terrier''' ===

West Highland White Terriers, commonly known as Westies, are a breed of dog known for their spirited personality and brilliant white coat. They are friendly, good with children, and thrive on lots of attention. They have black, penetrating eyes and small, pointed ears. Chances are, you've seen it before either in real life or in television.

For pictures and more info, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Highland_White_Terrier

=== '''French philosopher''' ===

Kyon is referring to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a French philosopher that influenced the French Revolution. His first name, Jean-Jacques, is shortened by Haruhi into JJ, hence the nickname.

For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Jacques_Rousseau

=== '''Sutra of Wisdom Perfection''' ===

The Sutra of Wisdom Perfection is part of the Mahayana Sutras and is a direct translation from the
Sanskrit term prajña paramita. There are several other sutras under it, which include the Single Letter Transcendant Sutra and the Heart of Transcendant Wisdom Sutra.

For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_of_Wisdom and http://www.empty-universe.com/prajnaparamita/index.html

=== '''Shiba Inu''' ===

Yes apparently that is the official name given to this breed of dog. It is one of the six original and distinct breeds of dog from Japan.

For pictures see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiba_Inu

=== '''turn the calendars red''' ===

This is a saying that means taking an unofficial leave/being absent without reason. It originates from the traditional Chinese calendar, the types that you tear off a day as it goes by. Green denotes a working/school day, while red denotes a holiday/weekend.

=== '''Lactobacilli''' ===

A type of lactic acid bacteria that are present in the human gastrointestinal track. They are benign and are often used in production of yogurts.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus

=== '''Escherichia coli''' ===

A type of bacteria that lives in the lower intestines of mammals, and are also known as gut flora. They are also benign to humans.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli

=== '''Yamataikoku''' ===

An ancient country in Japan recorded in the Chinese History Book Sanguo Zhi (三國志) a.k.a Records of the Three Kingdoms. It was recorded to be the head of thirty allied countries, which were previously battling each other.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamataikoku

=== '''Polynesia''' ===

A large group of more than a thousand islands scattered around the Pacific Ocean.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia

=== '''Hinekobyou''' ===

Literally 'Sunny Cat Disease' (陽猫病), it is named after cats lazing in the sun, which is referenced below.

=='''Discussion'''==

=== Question paper ===

Based on a quick check with Google, 'question paper' appears to be idiomatic for English English. It's not idiomatic in American English, where 'test' or 'test paper' would be the usual. However, it's unambiguous in context, and like English English spelling, I'm personally inclined to let it lie, now that I see that it's idiomatic somewhere.

:: Some examinations have 2 papers: A question paper with nothing but questions on it, and an answer sheet for you to write down your answers upon. I think "test paper" might work. Change it if you find it necessary.
::--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 19:39, 22 January 2007 (PST)

=== Mixed form ===

:However, seeing Asahina-san clad in a miko costume chanting out Buddhist Scriptures made me feel uneasy, ''as if there was going to be divine intervention anytime soon''.

This is slightly incorrect as I found it. Could be

as if there '''were''' going to be (a) divine intervention '''some time soon''', or

as if there '''could''' be (a) divine intervention '''at any time'''.

There's a small but signific difference in between these two versions in the sense of inevitability, which is the only reason I don't just edit it without comment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:03, 6 March 2007 (PST)

::as if there were going to be divine intervention some/any time soon
::I think this is it ;P
::--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 05:48, 7 March 2007 (PST)

=== Opening scene narration frame ===

Before I get too carried away...

As I read the opening scene, Kyon-the-narrator is in the gym, now, not writing in his journal the next day and certainly not in his arm-chair years later. If this is correct, there's a lot of tense adjustment to do, bringing stuff out of immediate past into present. Is there any basis for not putting Kyon-the-narrator in the gym?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:00, 9 March 2007 (PST)

:I would ask the same question: Is there any basis for doing all that work and putting Kyon-the-narrator in the gym? What parts make you think it's actively happening rather than (the more common) retrospective narration? [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:19, 9 March 2007 (PST)

1. From the tone of his voice, it appears that he wasn’t in awe, but kind of disappointed instead.

2. This girl, who was currently sitting on the substitute bench drinking the beverages the team had brought, was, without a doubt, Suzumiya Haruhi

3. It was now March, and the end of term exams had just ended.

4. Maybe it was done out of the school’s concern for letting students have a break after the end of term exams, but if you ask me, I’d pick longer holidays over intramural sports activities anytime.

5. I agree completely with him. If Haruhi had joined the athletics (track and field) club, she would have been able to compete in the nationals right now.

6. As I continued to watch another match that was taking place beside the first court, I gave Kunikida my reply.

1 and 5 are explicitly scene present. 4 is only narration present, but it reflects a state of mind congruent with scene present - same decade at least. 2, 3 and 6 are representative examples of a pervasive emphasis on ‘storyboard immediacy.’ This was all in HC’s translation before I touched it. This all creates a cumulative impression.

Of course I have no detailed idea as to how this relates to the original.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:14, 9 March 2007 (PST)

User talk:Nutcase

2007-03-09T16:56:54Z

Nutcase: /* Lines I want to remember */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow

2007-03-09T15:02:29Z

Nutcase: /* Opening scene narration frame */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow

2007-03-09T15:00:50Z

Nutcase: Opening scene narration frame

=='''Translator's Notes'''==

==='''Rembrandt'''===

Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn (July 15, 1606– October 4, 1669) is generally considered one of the greatest painters and printmakers in European art history and the most important in Dutch history. His contributions to art came in a period that historians call the Dutch Golden Age (roughly coinciding with the seventeenth century), in which Dutch world power, political influence, science, commerce, and culture — particularly painting — reached their pinnacle.

"No artist ever combined more delicate skill with more energy and power," states Chambers' Biographical Dictionary. "His treatment of mankind is full of human sympathy" (J.O. Thorne: 1962).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rembrandt for more info

==='''Rubens'''===

Peter Paul Rubens (June 28, 1577 – May 30, 1640) was the most popular and prolific Flemish and European painter of the 17th century. He was the proponent of an exuberant Baroque style which emphasized movement, color, and sensuality.

More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Paul_Rubens

=== '''Shar Pei''' ===

The dog breed Shar Pei originated in China and has the distinctive features of deep wrinkles and a blue-black tongue. The name (沙皮, pinyin: shā pí) translates to "sand skin," not because of color but because of texture. As puppies, Shar Pei have lots of wrinkles, but as they mature, the wrinkles disappear as they "grow into their skin". The American Kennel Club did not recognize the breed until 1991.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shar_Pei

=== '''Tangut Inscriptions''' ===

By "Tangut Inscription on paper strips", Haruhi actually means charms, the type you usually see in chinese movies that are yellow and have red ink over them, which are commonly used to bind chinese vampires. Tangut is actually an ancient Tibetan language, and has no link whatsoever to chinese vampires. Haruhi is just speaking whatever pops into her mind.

Here's the link to the Tangut Language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangut_language

=== '''miko''' ===

There is no strict definition in English for miko, although "shrine maiden" is commonly used. Other terms that have been used as equivalents are prophet, medium, priestess, nun, witch, or sorceress. They are not actual priestesses, but can serve as clerics if needed.

For additional information and photos, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko

=== '''Hinamatsuri''' ===

Japanese "Doll Festival", or "Girl's Day" as it is affectionately known. It involves displaying a large set of ornamental dolls, which are also sometimes called "Princess Dolls".

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinamatsuri for more info and some pictures.

=== '''miko-mai''' ===

A ceremonial dance performed by miko.

=== '''Scottish Highlands White Terrier''' ===

West Highland White Terriers, commonly known as Westies, are a breed of dog known for their spirited personality and brilliant white coat. They are friendly, good with children, and thrive on lots of attention. They have black, penetrating eyes and small, pointed ears. Chances are, you've seen it before either in real life or in television.

For pictures and more info, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Highland_White_Terrier

=== '''French philosopher''' ===

Kyon is referring to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, a French philosopher that influenced the French Revolution. His first name, Jean-Jacques, is shortened by Haruhi into JJ, hence the nickname.

For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Jacques_Rousseau

=== '''Sutra of Wisdom Perfection''' ===

The Sutra of Wisdom Perfection is part of the Mahayana Sutras and is a direct translation from the
Sanskrit term prajña paramita. There are several other sutras under it, which include the Single Letter Transcendant Sutra and the Heart of Transcendant Wisdom Sutra.

For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_of_Wisdom and http://www.empty-universe.com/prajnaparamita/index.html

=== '''Shiba Inu''' ===

Yes apparently that is the official name given to this breed of dog. It is one of the six original and distinct breeds of dog from Japan.

For pictures see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiba_Inu

=== '''turn the calendars red''' ===

This is a saying that means taking an unofficial leave/being absent without reason. It originates from the traditional Chinese calendar, the types that you tear off a day as it goes by. Green denotes a working/school day, while red denotes a holiday/weekend.

=== '''Lactobacilli''' ===

A type of lactic acid bacteria that are present in the human gastrointestinal track. They are benign and are often used in production of yogurts.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus

=== '''Escherichia coli''' ===

A type of bacteria that lives in the lower intestines of mammals, and are also known as gut flora. They are also benign to humans.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli

=== '''Yamataikoku''' ===

An ancient country in Japan recorded in the Chinese History Book Sanguo Zhi (三國志) a.k.a Records of the Three Kingdoms. It was recorded to be the head of thirty allied countries, which were previously battling each other.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamataikoku

=== '''Polynesia''' ===

A large group of more than a thousand islands scattered around the Pacific Ocean.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia

=== '''Hinekobyou''' ===

Literally 'Sunny Cat Disease' (陽猫病), it is named after cats lazing in the sun, which is referenced below.

=='''Discussion'''==

=== Question paper ===

Based on a quick check with Google, 'question paper' appears to be idiomatic for English English. It's not idiomatic in American English, where 'test' or 'test paper' would be the usual. However, it's unambiguous in context, and like English English spelling, I'm personally inclined to let it lie, now that I see that it's idiomatic somewhere.

:: Some examinations have 2 papers: A question paper with nothing but questions on it, and an answer sheet for you to write down your answers upon. I think "test paper" might work. Change it if you find it necessary.
::--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 19:39, 22 January 2007 (PST)

=== Mixed form ===

:However, seeing Asahina-san clad in a miko costume chanting out Buddhist Scriptures made me feel uneasy, ''as if there was going to be divine intervention anytime soon''.

This is slightly incorrect as I found it. Could be

as if there '''were''' going to be (a) divine intervention '''some time soon''', or

as if there '''could''' be (a) divine intervention '''at any time'''.

There's a small but signific difference in between these two versions in the sense of inevitability, which is the only reason I don't just edit it without comment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:03, 6 March 2007 (PST)

::as if there were going to be divine intervention some/any time soon
::I think this is it ;P
::--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 05:48, 7 March 2007 (PST)

== Opening scene narration frame ==

Before I get too carried away...

As I read the opening scene, Kyon-the-narrator is in the gym, now, not writing in his journal the next day and certainly not in his arm-chair years later. If this is correct, there's a lot of tense adjustment to do, bringing stuff out of immediate past into present. Is there any basis for not putting Kyon-the-narrator in the gym?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:00, 9 March 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow

2007-03-06T15:09:02Z

Nutcase: /* Mixed form */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow

2007-03-06T15:03:31Z

Nutcase: Mixed form

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 7

2007-03-06T05:45:11Z

Nutcase: While ----- like a pigeon.

"That was exactly where I and Koizumi '''had spent our lives digging''' for up to two meters."

"Had spent our lives digging" sounds so wierd. Change?
--[[User:Umiman|umiman]] 03:23, 16 February 2007 (PST)

:There's nothing technically wrong with it, but I'd recommend "wasted our time" in place of "spent our lives" and removing the "for." [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:02, 16 February 2007 (PST)

:I went with "spent our life force" as an intermediate solution. Removing the "for" still leaves the last phrase a bit awkward, due to the implicit down vs. the explicit up. May sub "as much as two meters deep," eventually.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 04:50, 17 February 2007 (PST)

== While ----- like a pigeon. ==

I found this as "cooing," changed it to "chuckling" as at least equally descriptive of pigeon sounds and also having a meaning in human terms that could plausibly relate to Koizumi's state of mind. Now I notice that there was an earlier forum thread about "crowing" -- not a pigeon sound -- vs. "cooing."

A brief web search turns up "cooing" and "crooning" as common representations of pigeon sound, but not "chuckling." But wait! I get hits on "chortling"! And it's even better than better than "chuckling" as a fit to the context, with implications of smug satisfaction.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 21:45, 5 March 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Prologue

2007-03-04T23:31:29Z

Nutcase: /* "Box." */

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Kirlian photograph ===

A 'photograph' created by exposing a photographic plate to an electric field instead of light. The electrical properties of the subject being photographed generates a unique electrical field around it, creating an "aura" around it.

=== Pochibukuro ===

In Japan, it is a New Year’s custom to give small amounts of money to children in decorative envelopes called ‘pochibukuro’.

=== Fukuwarai and Sugoroku ===
[http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/fukuwarai/what-is.html Fukuwari] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugoroku Sugoroku] are the games the group played while on the trip to Snow Mountain in the story [http://project.baka-tsuki.net/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Where_did_the_Cat_Go%3F Where did the cat go?]

=== Spring Setsubun ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setsubun Setsubun] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichun Risshun] is the eve of and the first day of a season, respectively. In this case, the season is springtime. The novel uses the kanji 節分 (せつぶん - "Setsubun") here, which is specifically a holiday for end of winter (Bean Throwing Night).

=== Rolled Sushi ===

The word used in the novel is "ehoumaki." (Can someone please expand this? It seems this word has a special meaning associated with the occasion, but I'm not clear what it is.) (I'm trying to confirm this in word from the scans... -Smidge)

=== Bernoulli lemniscate ===

Latin for "[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html a pendant ribbon]", a polar curve whose most common form is the locus of points the product of whose distances from two fixed points documented by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli Bernouli] in 1694.

=== Fuku wa uchi ===

The second half of the phrase "Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!" (鬼は外! 福は内! - "Demons out! Luck in!") which is traditionally yelled while throwing the soy beans during Setsubun. Only the second half ("Luck In") is said because Haruhi wanted to be nice to the demons.

=== Naita Akaoni ===

[http://harujpn-citron.blogspot.com/2005/11/naita-akaoni.html Naita Akaoni] is a children's story about two kind demons, a Red and Blue demon, who wish to be friends with the humans, who are always running away from them.

== Discussion ==

=== General ===

== "Hoping time will reverse." ==

: Here, I'm hoping that time will '''reverse'''. I have no clue what Haruhi is planning, since I need to come to terms with my own situation first. Starting to reminisce about the past year in February is a bit early, but since what I have to say is not unsayable, I might as well tell it enthusiastically and completely.

Is "reverse" the correct word here? The intent here isn't for time to flow backwards. It's more like Kyon wants to hit the "Pause" button and step out of "real" time while assimilating recent events, which involves rewinding the tape of the previous month and playing it forward. I can see the use of "reverse" here as a way to get accross the correct concept without it being literally accurate, but i can also see it as a placeholder in translation of a confusing passage.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)

=== "the wrong amount to set off" ===

''I think I know what Nagato wants to say. I had told Asahina-san that it was because Nagato had let the wrong amount to set off, so the world changed on December the eighteenth.''

This sentence doesn't seem right. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:Well, Kyon told Mikuru Yuki had put too much data into it and caused the world to change. Maybe change it to Nagato had (exploded) too much data? ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

:I have taken some liberties here, putting in "set things in motion" as capturing the sense in idiomatic English. Could make it "caused the wrong current state to be entered" to stay closer to BaKaFiSh's translation. This contacts the notion of the universe-as-computer more clearly. Yeah, that's better, gonna change it.

=== "I'll give you something to see" ===

''The movie I was watching gradually disappeared. Has the service been cut? I'll give you something to see. Like during my three-day long memory loss, it's a brigade leader's responsibility to worry about the members, that's the way it is, Haruhi.''

This paragraph seems a bit confused. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:maybe 'think about' instead of 'see' would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm

: I read this as Kyon is talking to himself, and the thing that he clings to in the timeless, placeless void is Haruhi's concern for him. The 'you' being himself is the slippery point here, so if anything, I'd make it. "I'll give you something to see, Kyon."--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:56, 5 February 2007 (PST)

=== Lucky Daughters ===

Perhaps this is a reference to [http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm Toshi Otoko] (the person/people who would throw the beans in such a ritual)?

=== "Box." ===

:When we first started, the students down below didn't know what was going on, and ran around like a group of insects not wanting to die. But before a minute had passed, the guys had come back in twos and threes and started to fight for the beans Asahina-san and Nagato were throwing down just like it was for money. They generally avoided the beans that Haruhi and her strong arms were firing off, considering it was kind of like the beans were fired out of a gun. For this, they moved in unison, going left and right at the same time.

:"'''Box'''."(<--makes no sense.)

:Haruhi then said, lamenting,

"Box" as in "Pass a box of ammo?" or as in "Stand and fight?" What kind of box? Smidge?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 17:15, 19 February 2007 (PST)

Okay, on this pass, I'm taking it to mean "Stand and fight!" It fits in the context. I've made the edit. If nobody says this is a mistake, I'll delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:31, 4 March 2007 (PST)

== Closed Discussion Items ==

The following discussion items ahve been resolved in some form or another...

=== Snow Mountain Syndrome reference ===

For uniformity, I decided to reference the location of the Snow Moutnain Syndrome storyline as a "mysterious mansion on the mountain" - this seems to adequately describe it without spoiling the actual story. To differentiate, the ''other'' location in that story is referred to as a villa.

=== doesn't fit SOS ===
'シズン毎にオンタイムな行事をしめやかに実行する組織'(literally something like Organization that respectfully holds events appropriate to the season....but that doesn't fit SOS)

Maybe something along the lines of "Specially Observing all events approriate to the Season"?

/kaoSFell

:yeah, there's a forum topic on it now~ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=563 ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

=== Bernoulli line ===
I think they meant the lemniscate. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Curves/Lemniscate.html.
:I agree, it definitely matches up with Koizumi's drawing. (Also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html)

=== Cleaning bin? ===
The last line of the prologue, you used the phrase "cleaning bin" of the literature club room. I'm sorry if I sound rude, but shouldn't it be utility closet? At least that's what I translated in Melancholy of Mikuru and Chapter 1. Since they're refering to the same object, I think we better standardize things a bit. Cleaning bin or utility closet? XD
--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 22:16, 2 December 2006 (PST)

:''Cleaning Bin'' sounds like a trash can. When I first read that line I thought, "Who's hiding in the trash can?". A utility/broom closet makes a lot more sense. I'll make that change when I revew the rest of the prologue later today. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 04:56, 3 December 2006 (PST)
::I thought the same :) [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 05:22, 3 December 2006 (PST)
:::Sure, =P, I just put cleaning bin because that's how I store all my cleaning crap...I shove it into a bin in the closet downstairs...=P...I guess that would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 2

2007-02-26T17:18:14Z

Nutcase: /* Is it really supposed to be this murky? */

Hmm.... who could the person be.... Its not Asakura, its not Nagato. It can't be Haruhi of course. Tsuruya? Probably not. Koizumi? Maybe. The Computer Club President? Nah. The green haired alien girl? No. Taniguchi? Can't be.

I'm betting its Koizumi.--[[User:66.245.248.87|66.245.248.87]] 17:38, 26 December 2006 (PST)

:no, tsuruya for sure.
:#Mikuru says they can"t tell him.her the secret -> koizumi already know
:#Kyon'd prefer die than making mikuru stay at another man's house XD
:#they never went to koizumi,'s house, but went to tsurara's during the movie shots.
:[[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 17:41, 26 December 2006 (PST)

::Nice try, DN. >.>
::It is, in fact, *spoil*!
::^__^.
::[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

== I'm having trouble ==

believing this... I mean, I knew Tsuruya was thick, but this is excessive! To the point of unbelievability. Next he'll say its all to help the poooor orphans and ask for a "donation."--[[User:66.245.248.87|66.245.248.87]] 10:31, 3 January 2007 (PST)
:She's not really believing him, actually. She just don't show it. [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 14:49, 3 January 2007 (PST)

== "That won't flatter anymore." ==

"But, I am here."

Said the unshaking voice, there was nobody more reliable than her.

'''"That won't flatter anymore."'''

This line makes no sense as it stands. What would make sense here could be something like, "I won't falter anymore." Or does it mean something more in the spirit of, 'I'm no faction's pawn anymore"?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:58, 2 February 2007 (PST)

:The line in question is "誰の好きにもさせない" - which I'm having a hard time parsing. "誰" (tare) is a suffix for "person". "好き" (suki) means fondness/liking. "にもさせない" is "nimo sasenai" where "sasenai" means can't or doesn't point? I think "flatter" is pretty close, but "falter" is definately not right. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:53, 2 February 2007 (PST)

::I actually translated it as 'That won't flatter anyone.' but someone changed it. >.> ---- --[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]] 14:29, 2 February 2007 (PST)

::"One who seeks to please none of them?" Very close to your original. I'd suggest putting a comma on the 'here,'and use the 'one who' instead of 'that' for fluid English. However, the period after 'here'contributes to a sense of power in the assertion, the marker going down. --[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 17:28, 2 February 2007 (PST)

:The line made perfect sense to me. She's saying that her continued presence is in effect a sign of the failings of those who oppose her faction. [[User:82.3.199.164|82.3.199.164]] 19:02, 2 February 2007 (PST)

::Okay, I can see that interpretation, but the English is still opaque. I suppose the author may have intended the remark to be opaque, coming from Yuki. Words are an imperfect medium of communication.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 08:05, 3 February 2007 (PST)

== Kyon, Mikuru, Tsuruya scene setting ==

I interpret the scene as starting out at a wooden gate into a courtyard. So, for example this sentence:

Tsuruya-san let us into the Tsuruya house, then put the (something) on the inside of the closed door.

would become:

Tsuruya-san let us into the Tsuruya compound, then put the bar back in place on the inside of the closed gate.

I don't see how this scene can make any sense as entry through a door into a building. Any objection to a rewrite on this basis? Or am I misunderstanding something?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 11:34, 2 February 2007 (PST)

:The original text describes (鶴屋家の敷地 = "The site of the Tsuruya house"), a peice of wood (角材 = squared timber) and a gate (門). I would translate this sentance as: "Tsuruya-san let us onto the Tsuruya property and braced the gate with a wooden beam." [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:36, 2 February 2007 (PST)

::Ah, the kanji for squared timber was what was confusing me. ^_^; ---- --[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]] 14:29, 2 February 2007 (PST)

I see on further investigation that the gateway isn't a simple structure. An exterior gate/door opens into a covered structure with another door opening into a courtyard. Sort of like an airlock. Not totally easy to convey this compactly in English. If someone has a link to a good image...--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 08:16, 4 February 2007 (PST)

== Unclear passage ==

"Asahina-san and I silently waited for a response. The chance of the actual person replying is actually very small, so in my mind, I practiced the exchange. After I repeated it three times, a minute later, still no one had answered. They should be at home. This started turning into an unlucky day, when,"

Who is the "actual person?" What is repeated three times? Is the following consistent with the original?

"Asahina-san and I silently waited for a response. The chance of Tsuruya herself replying is actually very small, so in my mind I rehearsed what I might say."

::Er, this is what they mean, but they don't use her name. ^^; ---- --[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]] 10:17, 4 February 2007 (PST)

or

"Asahina-san and I silently waited for a response. The chance of an actual person coming to the gate is very small, so in my mind I rehearsed what I might say."

And

"After I silently rehearsed what I might say three times, a minute later, still no one had answered. They should be at home. This had started turning into an unlucky day, when,"

or

"After I had rung three times, a minute later, still no one had answered. They should be at home. This had started turning into an unlucky day, when,"

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:49, 4 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-24T03:53:19Z

Nutcase: /* If they only sit... */

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== The pressure is different ==

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different, [T/L note: You know what, I give up on this line. No matter how I word it, it’ll be crap.]

Care to take a crack at this one, Smidge? Where Kyon is going here is pretty obvious, so suppose I could just make up something... ;-)

There are various other untranslated bits and other translator comments. I think I'll start porting them all over here and port whatever consensus emerges back after a day or two, assuming somebody ventures an opinion. Without objection, that's how I'll proceed.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:01, 15 February 2007 (PST)

:The paragraph is as follows:

::まあ、いいのか。〈神人〉のいるバカ空間に引きずり込まれたり、秋なのに桜を満開にさせたりすることに比べたら、ここから月かアンドロメダ星雲のどちらかを選んで行って帰ってくるくらいの違《ちが》いがある。なら圧倒《あっとう》的に月のほうがマシだ。すでに人間の足が触《ふ》れている天体と銀河鉄道に乗らんといかんくらいの前人未踏《ぜんじんみ　とう》の彼方《かなた》では大違いさ。もっとも、俺は閉鎖《へいさ》空間も秋の異常現象も経験済みなわけだが。

:(Note: Characters in 《》are the furigana for the kanji that proceeds them.)

:It seems to me that Kyon is comparing the current atmosphere with his past experiences. To him the situation feels weird, but doesn't have the same feel as all the other weird things that have happened before. Does that make sense?

:It's actually the last two sentences that are missing.

:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 15:05, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Well then, how about this? It would be miraculous if the particular metaphor is in the original text, but I'm pretty confident that this in the right general direction:

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different. '''I may miss my footing in the dark, but I'm not on the edge of an abyss.''' At least the Sealed Realities and the endless Autumn ended reasonably for everyone.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 21:12, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== “Obentou (???), I prepared them.” ==

Wasn't sure where to put this.
Doesn't it just mean lunches or something along those lines? Like bento is their packed lunch thing, right?

:The word is the polite form of "bento" (Japanese style boxed lunch.) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 05:32, 20 February 2007 (PST)

::I find "bento", "obentou" and "boxed lunch" with "boxed lunch" the most common. However, I think "bento" would be slightly better choice as the default. Fewer letters. --[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:35, 23 February 2007 (PST)

:::Not the word used in the text, though, for what it's worth. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:13, 23 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-23T18:35:14Z

Nutcase: /* “Obentou (???), I prepared them.” */

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Being decisive is useless if you don't get up and do it. The action is more important, and that leaves room for impulsive behavior too. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 03:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

::Thanks, Smidge, that fits perfectly. Without further comment will delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== The pressure is different ==

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different, [T/L note: You know what, I give up on this line. No matter how I word it, it’ll be crap.]

Care to take a crack at this one, Smidge? Where Kyon is going here is pretty obvious, so suppose I could just make up something... ;-)

There are various other untranslated bits and other translator comments. I think I'll start porting them all over here and port whatever consensus emerges back after a day or two, assuming somebody ventures an opinion. Without objection, that's how I'll proceed.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:01, 15 February 2007 (PST)

:The paragraph is as follows:

::まあ、いいのか。〈神人〉のいるバカ空間に引きずり込まれたり、秋なのに桜を満開にさせたりすることに比べたら、ここから月かアンドロメダ星雲のどちらかを選んで行って帰ってくるくらいの違《ちが》いがある。なら圧倒《あっとう》的に月のほうがマシだ。すでに人間の足が触《ふ》れている天体と銀河鉄道に乗らんといかんくらいの前人未踏《ぜんじんみ　とう》の彼方《かなた》では大違いさ。もっとも、俺は閉鎖《へいさ》空間も秋の異常現象も経験済みなわけだが。

:(Note: Characters in 《》are the furigana for the kanji that proceeds them.)

:It seems to me that Kyon is comparing the current atmosphere with his past experiences. To him the situation feels weird, but doesn't have the same feel as all the other weird things that have happened before. Does that make sense?

:It's actually the last two sentences that are missing.

:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 15:05, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Well then, how about this? It would be miraculous if the particular metaphor is in the original text, but I'm pretty confident that this in the right general direction:

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different. '''I may miss my footing in the dark, but I'm not on the edge of an abyss.''' At least the Sealed Realities and the endless Autumn ended reasonably for everyone.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 21:12, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== “Obentou (???), I prepared them.” ==

Wasn't sure where to put this.
Doesn't it just mean lunches or something along those lines? Like bento is their packed lunch thing, right?

:The word is the polite form of "bento" (Japanese style boxed lunch.) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 05:32, 20 February 2007 (PST)

::I find "bento", "obentou" and "boxed lunch" with "boxed lunch" the most common. However, I think "bento" would be slightly better choice as the default. Fewer letters. --[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:35, 23 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume6 Where did the Cat Go?

2007-02-22T15:17:36Z

Nutcase: Alibi or absense

= References & Translator's Notes =

=== Tatamis ===

The size of a room in Japan is often measured by the number of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatami tatami mats] required to cover the floor. The traditional dimensions of a mat is 0.90 meters (2' 11.4") by 1.80 meters (5' 10.8"). In this case, the size of the room would be about 32 square meters (350 square feet).

=== Sunken Hearths ===
Similar to kotatsu (low wooden table with a heater underneath) but there's a sunken pit beneath the table to make a bench. Users can then sit comfortably with their legs underneath the table instead of kneeling on the floor.

=== Fukuwarai ===
Fukuwarai is a traditional game that is played in New Year for Japanese. Think of it as a sort of 'pin the tail on the donkey', except you are making faces instead.

=== Laugh Bags ===
Laugh bag are not to be confused with 'laughing gas'. This is a kind of toy that were popular in Japan from 1960-1970's. Inside small pouches contains a small vinyl disc which is a record of a laugh track. The three varieties that they come in are man, woman and couple tracks.

= Discussion =

Translation discussions here or on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/ forum].

== Alibi or absense ==

:"Use your head for once! Listen, at what time did Shamisen's alibi start?"

Could somebody check the translation on this? Absense would make more sense than alibi.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:17, 22 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Prologue

2007-02-20T18:05:28Z

Nutcase: Deleted dead "see what?" issue

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Kirlian photograph ===

A 'photograph' created by exposing a photographic plate to an electric field instead of light. The electrical properties of the subject being photographed generates a unique electrical field around it, creating an "aura" around it.

=== Pochibukuro ===

In Japan, it is a New Year’s custom to give small amounts of money to children in decorative envelopes called ‘pochibukuro’.

=== Fukuwarai and Sugoroku ===
[http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/fukuwarai/what-is.html Fukuwari] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugoroku Sugoroku] are the games the group played while on the trip to Snow Mountain in the story [http://project.baka-tsuki.net/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Where_did_the_Cat_Go%3F Where did the cat go?]

=== Spring Setsubun ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setsubun Setsubun] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichun Risshun] is the eve of and the first day of a season, respectively. In this case, the season is springtime. The novel uses the kanji 節分 (せつぶん - "Setsubun") here, which is specifically a holiday for end of winter (Bean Throwing Night).

=== Rolled Sushi ===

The word used in the novel is "ehoumaki." (Can someone please expand this? It seems this word has a special meaning associated with the occasion, but I'm not clear what it is.) (I'm trying to confirm this in word from the scans... -Smidge)

=== Bernoulli lemniscate ===

Latin for "[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html a pendant ribbon]", a polar curve whose most common form is the locus of points the product of whose distances from two fixed points documented by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli Bernouli] in 1694.

=== Fuku wa uchi ===

The second half of the phrase "Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!" (鬼は外! 福は内! - "Demons out! Luck in!") which is traditionally yelled while throwing the soy beans during Setsubun. Only the second half ("Luck In") is said because Haruhi wanted to be nice to the demons.

=== Naita Akaoni ===

[http://harujpn-citron.blogspot.com/2005/11/naita-akaoni.html Naita Akaoni] is a children's story about two kind demons, a Red and Blue demon, who wish to be friends with the humans, who are always running away from them.

== Discussion ==

=== General ===

== "Hoping time will reverse." ==

: Here, I'm hoping that time will '''reverse'''. I have no clue what Haruhi is planning, since I need to come to terms with my own situation first. Starting to reminisce about the past year in February is a bit early, but since what I have to say is not unsayable, I might as well tell it enthusiastically and completely.

Is "reverse" the correct word here? The intent here isn't for time to flow backwards. It's more like Kyon wants to hit the "Pause" button and step out of "real" time while assimilating recent events, which involves rewinding the tape of the previous month and playing it forward. I can see the use of "reverse" here as a way to get accross the correct concept without it being literally accurate, but i can also see it as a placeholder in translation of a confusing passage.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)

=== "the wrong amount to set off" ===

''I think I know what Nagato wants to say. I had told Asahina-san that it was because Nagato had let the wrong amount to set off, so the world changed on December the eighteenth.''

This sentence doesn't seem right. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:Well, Kyon told Mikuru Yuki had put too much data into it and caused the world to change. Maybe change it to Nagato had (exploded) too much data? ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

:I have taken some liberties here, putting in "set things in motion" as capturing the sense in idiomatic English. Could make it "caused the wrong current state to be entered" to stay closer to BaKaFiSh's translation. This contacts the notion of the universe-as-computer more clearly. Yeah, that's better, gonna change it.

=== "I'll give you something to see" ===

''The movie I was watching gradually disappeared. Has the service been cut? I'll give you something to see. Like during my three-day long memory loss, it's a brigade leader's responsibility to worry about the members, that's the way it is, Haruhi.''

This paragraph seems a bit confused. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:maybe 'think about' instead of 'see' would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm

: I read this as Kyon is talking to himself, and the thing that he clings to in the timeless, placeless void is Haruhi's concern for him. The 'you' being himself is the slippery point here, so if anything, I'd make it. "I'll give you something to see, Kyon."--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:56, 5 February 2007 (PST)

=== Lucky Daughters ===

Perhaps this is a reference to [http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm Toshi Otoko] (the person/people who would throw the beans in such a ritual)?

=== "Box." ===

:When we first started, the students down below didn't know what was going on, and ran around like a group of insects not wanting to die. But before a minute had passed, the guys had come back in twos and threes and started to fight for the beans Asahina-san and Nagato were throwing down just like it was for money. They generally avoided the beans that Haruhi and her strong arms were firing off, considering it was kind of like the beans were fired out of a gun. For this, they moved in unison, going left and right at the same time.

:"'''Box'''."(<--makes no sense.)

:Haruhi then said, lamenting,

"Box" as in "Pass a box of ammo?" or as in "Stand and fight?" What kind of box? Smidge?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 17:15, 19 February 2007 (PST)

== Closed Discussion Items ==

The following discussion items ahve been resolved in some form or another...

=== Snow Mountain Syndrome reference ===

For uniformity, I decided to reference the location of the Snow Moutnain Syndrome storyline as a "mysterious mansion on the mountain" - this seems to adequately describe it without spoiling the actual story. To differentiate, the ''other'' location in that story is referred to as a villa.

=== doesn't fit SOS ===
'シズン毎にオンタイムな行事をしめやかに実行する組織'(literally something like Organization that respectfully holds events appropriate to the season....but that doesn't fit SOS)

Maybe something along the lines of "Specially Observing all events approriate to the Season"?

/kaoSFell

:yeah, there's a forum topic on it now~ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=563 ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

=== Bernoulli line ===
I think they meant the lemniscate. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Curves/Lemniscate.html.
:I agree, it definitely matches up with Koizumi's drawing. (Also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html)

=== Cleaning bin? ===
The last line of the prologue, you used the phrase "cleaning bin" of the literature club room. I'm sorry if I sound rude, but shouldn't it be utility closet? At least that's what I translated in Melancholy of Mikuru and Chapter 1. Since they're refering to the same object, I think we better standardize things a bit. Cleaning bin or utility closet? XD
--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 22:16, 2 December 2006 (PST)

:''Cleaning Bin'' sounds like a trash can. When I first read that line I thought, "Who's hiding in the trash can?". A utility/broom closet makes a lot more sense. I'll make that change when I revew the rest of the prologue later today. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 04:56, 3 December 2006 (PST)
::I thought the same :) [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 05:22, 3 December 2006 (PST)
:::Sure, =P, I just put cleaning bin because that's how I store all my cleaning crap...I shove it into a bin in the closet downstairs...=P...I guess that would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Prologue

2007-02-20T01:15:41Z

Nutcase:

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Kirlian photograph ===

A 'photograph' created by exposing a photographic plate to an electric field instead of light. The electrical properties of the subject being photographed generates a unique electrical field around it, creating an "aura" around it.

=== Pochibukuro ===

In Japan, it is a New Year’s custom to give small amounts of money to children in decorative envelopes called ‘pochibukuro’.

=== Fukuwarai and Sugoroku ===
[http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/fukuwarai/what-is.html Fukuwari] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugoroku Sugoroku] are the games the group played while on the trip to Snow Mountain in the story [http://project.baka-tsuki.net/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Where_did_the_Cat_Go%3F Where did the cat go?]

=== Spring Setsubun ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setsubun Setsubun] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichun Risshun] is the eve of and the first day of a season, respectively. In this case, the season is springtime. The novel uses the kanji 節分 (せつぶん - "Setsubun") here, which is specifically a holiday for end of winter (Bean Throwing Night).

=== Rolled Sushi ===

The word used in the novel is "ehoumaki." (Can someone please expand this? It seems this word has a special meaning associated with the occasion, but I'm not clear what it is.) (I'm trying to confirm this in word from the scans... -Smidge)

=== Bernoulli lemniscate ===

Latin for "[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html a pendant ribbon]", a polar curve whose most common form is the locus of points the product of whose distances from two fixed points documented by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli Bernouli] in 1694.

=== Fuku wa uchi ===

The second half of the phrase "Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!" (鬼は外! 福は内! - "Demons out! Luck in!") which is traditionally yelled while throwing the soy beans during Setsubun. Only the second half ("Luck In") is said because Haruhi wanted to be nice to the demons.

=== Naita Akaoni ===

[http://harujpn-citron.blogspot.com/2005/11/naita-akaoni.html Naita Akaoni] is a children's story about two kind demons, a Red and Blue demon, who wish to be friends with the humans, who are always running away from them.

== Discussion ==

=== General ===

== "Hoping time will reverse." ==

: Here, I'm hoping that time will '''reverse'''. I have no clue what Haruhi is planning, since I need to come to terms with my own situation first. Starting to reminisce about the past year in February is a bit early, but since what I have to say is not unsayable, I might as well tell it enthusiastically and completely.

Is "reverse" the correct word here? The intent here isn't for time to flow backwards. It's more like Kyon wants to hit the "Pause" button and step out of "real" time while assimilating recent events, which involves rewinding the tape of the previous month and playing it forward. I can see the use of "reverse" here as a way to get accross the correct concept without it being literally accurate, but i can also see it as a placeholder in translation of a confusing passage.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)

=== "the wrong amount to set off" ===

''I think I know what Nagato wants to say. I had told Asahina-san that it was because Nagato had let the wrong amount to set off, so the world changed on December the eighteenth.''

This sentence doesn't seem right. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:Well, Kyon told Mikuru Yuki had put too much data into it and caused the world to change. Maybe change it to Nagato had (exploded) too much data? ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

:I have taken some liberties here, putting in "set things in motion" as capturing the sense in idiomatic English. Could make it "caused the wrong current state to be entered" to stay closer to BaKaFiSh's translation. This contacts the notion of the universe-as-computer more clearly. Yeah, that's better, gonna change it.

=== "I'll give you something to see" ===

''The movie I was watching gradually disappeared. Has the service been cut? I'll give you something to see. Like during my three-day long memory loss, it's a brigade leader's responsibility to worry about the members, that's the way it is, Haruhi.''

This paragraph seems a bit confused. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:maybe 'think about' instead of 'see' would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm

: I read this as Kyon is talking to himself, and the thing that he clings to in the timeless, placeless void is Haruhi's concern for him. The 'you' being himself is the slippery point here, so if anything, I'd make it. "I'll give you something to see, Kyon."--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:56, 5 February 2007 (PST)

=== Lucky Daughters ===

Perhaps this is a reference to [http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm Toshi Otoko] (the person/people who would throw the beans in such a ritual)?

=== See what? ===

''it can see it happening with its eyes.''

I changed the original line (above) to "you can't see it happening in her eyes." so it sorta makes sense. However I'm pretty sure this isn't what the original says... someone please verify!

=== "Box." ===

:When we first started, the students down below didn't know what was going on, and ran around like a group of insects not wanting to die. But before a minute had passed, the guys had come back in twos and threes and started to fight for the beans Asahina-san and Nagato were throwing down just like it was for money. They generally avoided the beans that Haruhi and her strong arms were firing off, considering it was kind of like the beans were fired out of a gun. For this, they moved in unison, going left and right at the same time.

:"'''Box'''."(<--makes no sense.)

:Haruhi then said, lamenting,

"Box" as in "Pass a box of ammo?" or as in "Stand and fight?" What kind of box? Smidge?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 17:15, 19 February 2007 (PST)

== Closed Discussion Items ==

The following discussion items ahve been resolved in some form or another...

=== Snow Mountain Syndrome reference ===

For uniformity, I decided to reference the location of the Snow Moutnain Syndrome storyline as a "mysterious mansion on the mountain" - this seems to adequately describe it without spoiling the actual story. To differentiate, the ''other'' location in that story is referred to as a villa.

=== doesn't fit SOS ===
'シズン毎にオンタイムな行事をしめやかに実行する組織'(literally something like Organization that respectfully holds events appropriate to the season....but that doesn't fit SOS)

Maybe something along the lines of "Specially Observing all events approriate to the Season"?

/kaoSFell

:yeah, there's a forum topic on it now~ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=563 ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

=== Bernoulli line ===
I think they meant the lemniscate. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Curves/Lemniscate.html.
:I agree, it definitely matches up with Koizumi's drawing. (Also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html)

=== Cleaning bin? ===
The last line of the prologue, you used the phrase "cleaning bin" of the literature club room. I'm sorry if I sound rude, but shouldn't it be utility closet? At least that's what I translated in Melancholy of Mikuru and Chapter 1. Since they're refering to the same object, I think we better standardize things a bit. Cleaning bin or utility closet? XD
--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 22:16, 2 December 2006 (PST)

:''Cleaning Bin'' sounds like a trash can. When I first read that line I thought, "Who's hiding in the trash can?". A utility/broom closet makes a lot more sense. I'll make that change when I revew the rest of the prologue later today. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 04:56, 3 December 2006 (PST)
::I thought the same :) [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 05:22, 3 December 2006 (PST)
:::Sure, =P, I just put cleaning bin because that's how I store all my cleaning crap...I shove it into a bin in the closet downstairs...=P...I guess that would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Prologue

2007-02-19T14:52:36Z

Nutcase: repositioning discussion item

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Kirlian photograph ===

A 'photograph' created by exposing a photographic plate to an electric field instead of light. The electrical properties of the subject being photographed generates a unique electrical field around it, creating an "aura" around it.

=== Pochibukuro ===

In Japan, it is a New Year’s custom to give small amounts of money to children in decorative envelopes called ‘pochibukuro’.

=== Fukuwarai and Sugoroku ===
[http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/fukuwarai/what-is.html Fukuwari] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugoroku Sugoroku] are the games the group played while on the trip to Snow Mountain in the story [http://project.baka-tsuki.net/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Where_did_the_Cat_Go%3F Where did the cat go?]

=== Spring Setsubun ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setsubun Setsubun] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichun Risshun] is the eve of and the first day of a season, respectively. In this case, the season is springtime. The novel uses the kanji 節分 (せつぶん - "Setsubun") here, which is specifically a holiday for end of winter (Bean Throwing Night).

=== Rolled Sushi ===

The word used in the novel is "ehoumaki." (Can someone please expand this? It seems this word has a special meaning associated with the occasion, but I'm not clear what it is.) (I'm trying to confirm this in word from the scans... -Smidge)

=== Bernoulli lemniscate ===

Latin for "[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html a pendant ribbon]", a polar curve whose most common form is the locus of points the product of whose distances from two fixed points documented by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli Bernouli] in 1694.

=== Fuku wa uchi ===

The second half of the phrase "Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!" (鬼は外! 福は内! - "Demons out! Luck in!") which is traditionally yelled while throwing the soy beans during Setsubun. Only the second half ("Luck In") is said because Haruhi wanted to be nice to the demons.

=== Naita Akaoni ===

[http://harujpn-citron.blogspot.com/2005/11/naita-akaoni.html Naita Akaoni] is a children's story about two kind demons, a Red and Blue demon, who wish to be friends with the humans, who are always running away from them.

== Discussion ==

=== General ===

== "Hoping time will reverse." ==

: Here, I'm hoping that time will '''reverse'''. I have no clue what Haruhi is planning, since I need to come to terms with my own situation first. Starting to reminisce about the past year in February is a bit early, but since what I have to say is not unsayable, I might as well tell it enthusiastically and completely.

Is "reverse" the correct word here? The intent here isn't for time to flow backwards. It's more like Kyon wants to hit the "Pause" button and step out of "real" time while assimilating recent events, which involves rewinding the tape of the previous month and playing it forward. I can see the use of "reverse" here as a way to get accross the correct concept without it being literally accurate, but i can also see it as a placeholder in translation of a confusing passage.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)

=== "the wrong amount to set off" ===

''I think I know what Nagato wants to say. I had told Asahina-san that it was because Nagato had let the wrong amount to set off, so the world changed on December the eighteenth.''

This sentence doesn't seem right. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:Well, Kyon told Mikuru Yuki had put too much data into it and caused the world to change. Maybe change it to Nagato had (exploded) too much data? ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

:I have taken some liberties here, putting in "set things in motion" as capturing the sense in idiomatic English. Could make it "caused the wrong current state to be entered" to stay closer to BaKaFiSh's translation. This contacts the notion of the universe-as-computer more clearly. Yeah, that's better, gonna change it.

=== "I'll give you something to see" ===

''The movie I was watching gradually disappeared. Has the service been cut? I'll give you something to see. Like during my three-day long memory loss, it's a brigade leader's responsibility to worry about the members, that's the way it is, Haruhi.''

This paragraph seems a bit confused. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:maybe 'think about' instead of 'see' would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm

: I read this as Kyon is talking to himself, and the thing that he clings to in the timeless, placeless void is Haruhi's concern for him. The 'you' being himself is the slippery point here, so if anything, I'd make it. "I'll give you something to see, Kyon."--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:56, 5 February 2007 (PST)

=== Lucky Daughters ===

Perhaps this is a reference to [http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm Toshi Otoko] (the person/people who would throw the beans in such a ritual)?

=== See what? ===

''it can see it happening with its eyes.''

I changed the original line (above) to "you can't see it happening in her eyes." so it sorta makes sense. However I'm pretty sure this isn't what the original says... someone please verify!

== Closed Discussion Items ==

The following discussion items ahve been resolved in some form or another...

=== Snow Mountain Syndrome reference ===

For uniformity, I decided to reference the location of the Snow Moutnain Syndrome storyline as a "mysterious mansion on the mountain" - this seems to adequately describe it without spoiling the actual story. To differentiate, the ''other'' location in that story is referred to as a villa.

=== doesn't fit SOS ===
'シズン毎にオンタイムな行事をしめやかに実行する組織'(literally something like Organization that respectfully holds events appropriate to the season....but that doesn't fit SOS)

Maybe something along the lines of "Specially Observing all events approriate to the Season"?

/kaoSFell

:yeah, there's a forum topic on it now~ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=563 ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

=== Bernoulli line ===
I think they meant the lemniscate. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Curves/Lemniscate.html.
:I agree, it definitely matches up with Koizumi's drawing. (Also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html)

=== Cleaning bin? ===
The last line of the prologue, you used the phrase "cleaning bin" of the literature club room. I'm sorry if I sound rude, but shouldn't it be utility closet? At least that's what I translated in Melancholy of Mikuru and Chapter 1. Since they're refering to the same object, I think we better standardize things a bit. Cleaning bin or utility closet? XD
--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 22:16, 2 December 2006 (PST)

:''Cleaning Bin'' sounds like a trash can. When I first read that line I thought, "Who's hiding in the trash can?". A utility/broom closet makes a lot more sense. I'll make that change when I revew the rest of the prologue later today. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 04:56, 3 December 2006 (PST)
::I thought the same :) [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 05:22, 3 December 2006 (PST)
:::Sure, =P, I just put cleaning bin because that's how I store all my cleaning crap...I shove it into a bin in the closet downstairs...=P...I guess that would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Prologue

2007-02-19T14:47:43Z

Nutcase: "Hoping time will reverse."

== References & Translator's Notes ==

=== Kirlian photograph ===

A 'photograph' created by exposing a photographic plate to an electric field instead of light. The electrical properties of the subject being photographed generates a unique electrical field around it, creating an "aura" around it.

=== Pochibukuro ===

In Japan, it is a New Year’s custom to give small amounts of money to children in decorative envelopes called ‘pochibukuro’.

=== Fukuwarai and Sugoroku ===
[http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/fukuwarai/what-is.html Fukuwari] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugoroku Sugoroku] are the games the group played while on the trip to Snow Mountain in the story [http://project.baka-tsuki.net/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Where_did_the_Cat_Go%3F Where did the cat go?]

=== Spring Setsubun ===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setsubun Setsubun] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichun Risshun] is the eve of and the first day of a season, respectively. In this case, the season is springtime. The novel uses the kanji 節分 (せつぶん - "Setsubun") here, which is specifically a holiday for end of winter (Bean Throwing Night).

=== Rolled Sushi ===

The word used in the novel is "ehoumaki." (Can someone please expand this? It seems this word has a special meaning associated with the occasion, but I'm not clear what it is.) (I'm trying to confirm this in word from the scans... -Smidge)

=== Bernoulli lemniscate ===

Latin for "[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html a pendant ribbon]", a polar curve whose most common form is the locus of points the product of whose distances from two fixed points documented by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernoulli Bernouli] in 1694.

=== Fuku wa uchi ===

The second half of the phrase "Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!" (鬼は外! 福は内! - "Demons out! Luck in!") which is traditionally yelled while throwing the soy beans during Setsubun. Only the second half ("Luck In") is said because Haruhi wanted to be nice to the demons.

=== Naita Akaoni ===

[http://harujpn-citron.blogspot.com/2005/11/naita-akaoni.html Naita Akaoni] is a children's story about two kind demons, a Red and Blue demon, who wish to be friends with the humans, who are always running away from them.

== Discussion ==

=== General ===

=== "the wrong amount to set off" ===

''I think I know what Nagato wants to say. I had told Asahina-san that it was because Nagato had let the wrong amount to set off, so the world changed on December the eighteenth.''

This sentence doesn't seem right. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:Well, Kyon told Mikuru Yuki had put too much data into it and caused the world to change. Maybe change it to Nagato had (exploded) too much data? ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

:I have taken some liberties here, putting in "set things in motion" as capturing the sense in idiomatic English. Could make it "caused the wrong current state to be entered" to stay closer to BaKaFiSh's translation. This contacts the notion of the universe-as-computer more clearly. Yeah, that's better, gonna change it.

=== "I'll give you something to see" ===

''The movie I was watching gradually disappeared. Has the service been cut? I'll give you something to see. Like during my three-day long memory loss, it's a brigade leader's responsibility to worry about the members, that's the way it is, Haruhi.''

This paragraph seems a bit confused. Can anyone please confirm the translation?

:maybe 'think about' instead of 'see' would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm

: I read this as Kyon is talking to himself, and the thing that he clings to in the timeless, placeless void is Haruhi's concern for him. The 'you' being himself is the slippery point here, so if anything, I'd make it. "I'll give you something to see, Kyon."--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:56, 5 February 2007 (PST)

=== Lucky Daughters ===

Perhaps this is a reference to [http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/setsubun.htm Toshi Otoko] (the person/people who would throw the beans in such a ritual)?

=== See what? ===

''it can see it happening with its eyes.''

I changed the original line (above) to "you can't see it happening in her eyes." so it sorta makes sense. However I'm pretty sure this isn't what the original says... someone please verify!

== Closed Discussion Items ==

The following discussion items ahve been resolved in some form or another...

=== Snow Mountain Syndrome reference ===

For uniformity, I decided to reference the location of the Snow Moutnain Syndrome storyline as a "mysterious mansion on the mountain" - this seems to adequately describe it without spoiling the actual story. To differentiate, the ''other'' location in that story is referred to as a villa.

=== doesn't fit SOS ===
'シズン毎にオンタイムな行事をしめやかに実行する組織'(literally something like Organization that respectfully holds events appropriate to the season....but that doesn't fit SOS)

Maybe something along the lines of "Specially Observing all events approriate to the Season"?

/kaoSFell

:yeah, there's a forum topic on it now~ http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=563 ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

=== Bernoulli line ===
I think they meant the lemniscate. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Curves/Lemniscate.html.
:I agree, it definitely matches up with Koizumi's drawing. (Also http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lemniscate.html)

=== Cleaning bin? ===
The last line of the prologue, you used the phrase "cleaning bin" of the literature club room. I'm sorry if I sound rude, but shouldn't it be utility closet? At least that's what I translated in Melancholy of Mikuru and Chapter 1. Since they're refering to the same object, I think we better standardize things a bit. Cleaning bin or utility closet? XD
--[[User:HolyCow|HolyCow]] 22:16, 2 December 2006 (PST)

:''Cleaning Bin'' sounds like a trash can. When I first read that line I thought, "Who's hiding in the trash can?". A utility/broom closet makes a lot more sense. I'll make that change when I revew the rest of the prologue later today. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 04:56, 3 December 2006 (PST)
::I thought the same :) [[User:Darkoneko|DarkoNeko]] [[User_Talk:Darkoneko|talk]] 05:22, 3 December 2006 (PST)
:::Sure, =P, I just put cleaning bin because that's how I store all my cleaning crap...I shove it into a bin in the closet downstairs...=P...I guess that would make more sense... ~~[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]

== "Hoping time will reverse." ==

: Here, I'm hoping that time will '''reverse'''. I have no clue what Haruhi is planning, since I need to come to terms with my own situation first. Starting to reminisce about the past year in February is a bit early, but since what I have to say is not unsayable, I might as well tell it enthusiastically and completely.

Is "reverse" the correct word here? The intent here isn't for time to flow backwards. It's more like Kyon wants to hit the "Pause" button and step out of "real" time while assimilating recent events, which involves rewinding the tape of the previous month and playing it forward. I can see the use of "reverse" here as a way to get accross the correct concept without it being literally accurate, but i can also see it as a placeholder in translation of a confusing passage.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:47, 19 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Epilogue

2007-02-18T16:37:25Z

Nutcase: "cottonrose"

== 15 Genroku ==

15 Genroku corresponds to 1702 AD.

From the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genroku Wikipedia]:

Genroku (Japanese: 元禄) was a Japanese era that spanned the period from 30 September 1688 to 13 March 1704. The reigning emperor was Higashiyama, the reigning Shogun was Tokugawa Tsunayoshi, nicknamed the "dog shogun". The period followed the Jōkyō era and was followed by the Hōei era.

The era is generally considered to be the golden era of the Edo period. The previous hundred years of peace and seclusion in Japan led to economic stability, and arts and architecture flourished. To finance the splendour of the Genroku era, the Shogunate reduced the quality of coins. This caused an inflation. To solve the crisis, the Kyoho Reforms were carried out a few years after the era.

== "cracks" ==

:The photo she handed to me showed a pot with cracks all over, using a white wall as a background.

I take this to indicate a vessel with crackled glaze, not a cracked pot per se. A pot that wasn't watertight wouldn't have a readable 300 year-old piece of paper in it. Ground water and freeze-thaw cycles are not kind to cracked earthenware pots or their biodegradable contents... However, this point may lie beyond the range of the author's detailed consideration. Is the original Japanese any more specific than the translation as it stands?

== "cottonrose" ==

I've changed a description of Asahina's lips from cottonrose (a small, nondescript white flowering herb) to cottonrose hibiscus, a beautiful pink ornamental. This just has to be more correct.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 08:37, 18 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Epilogue

2007-02-18T13:52:50Z

Nutcase: "cracks"

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Epilogue

2007-02-18T05:44:23Z

Nutcase: 15 Genroku

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 7

2007-02-17T12:50:31Z

Nutcase:

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-17T04:50:07Z

Nutcase: /* Lines I want to remember */

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-17T03:27:12Z

Nutcase:

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-17T03:03:03Z

Nutcase:

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-17T02:46:22Z

Nutcase: "Squeamish"

To preserve for ongoing consideration

As a ''personal'' preference, if I see something that is "very wrong" I try to correct it using the following methods, in this order: Change word forms (eg adverb<->adjective), Change word order, alter grammar and punctuation, add minor word (it/and/the etc), remove words. If it seems ''really'' off then usually there's a forum post about it and a consult with the original Japanese. Just my way of doing it, though. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 08:43, 11 January 2007 (PST)

I am taking a much more aggressively engaged line as an editor, in that I seriously consider changing anything that somehow disturbs my experience as a reader. Certain things, like British spellings and some idioms, Japanese words I'm familiar with and some nuances of comma usage, don't bother me so I ignore them. I also tread carefully around anything that seems like it might be part of the author's intent or the author's "voice." Last but not least, I'd prefer not to annoy any translators or editors working upstream. So far, nobody has indicated any annoyance, but only a fool squanders what is sure to be a finite spool of slack. I assume I've used up slack. I try to project an appropriate level of approachability and openness to feedback. Don't bite me, just growl a little or whatever.

----

To sum up other discussion, I took note of "squeamish" as a word appearing several times in the translation, usually inappropriately in my view. I theorized that it as a "placeholder," reflecting some sort of default interpretation of an underlying Japanese expression with multiple possible meanings. Discussion with Smidge204 on a particular instance from "Lone Island Syndrome" boils down to this:

"Does this mansion have a name?" Haruhi asked, Keiichi-san smiled squeamishly and answered, "Right now we haven't come up with one, if you have any suggestions for the name, I'm all ears."

Nutcase: Why would Keiichi-san be smiling in a "fastidious, easily disgusted way" at this point? Otherwise, he is portrayed as easy-going and tolerant. It's not congruent. "Wryly" is congruent.

Smidege204: The line in question is "ハルヒの問いに圭一さんは苦笑い" in which "苦笑い" means "bitter smile" - so wryly fits perfectly here :)

"Bitter smile" is, on it's face, an expression that invites multiple interpretations depending on context.

"Squeamish" is actually a good choice as a translator's default as long as it is understood to be a placeholder; it's easy to find and usually so incongruent that it obviously needs to be replaced when somebody gets around to it. The author's intention is going to be particularly nuanced exactly on this sort of point, so a translator may well want to bypass it while doing the heavy lifting part of the translation. One wants to finish framing before breaking out the planes and the sandpaper.

This is my view. Since it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, I have acted on this view, examining, with scalpel in hand, all examples of "squeamish." ;)

== Lone Mountain Syndrome ==

I did a very messy job of editing this chapter. It's embarrassing. Oh well, live and learn.

90% is just the usual clean-up stuff, uncontroversial. The entryway layout is somewhat more consequential. I do figure it for double doors as the best explanation for the mixed use of "gates" and "doors."

Another somewhat questionable point has to do with the "What's with you and Yuki" scene; at the end, I first changed "dull" eyes (can't possibly be right) to "brimming," but that seemed out of character - not out of the question, congruent with blinking, but still...so finally I downshifted to "soft." Probably impossible to distinguish "dull" and "soft" in the original Japanese without the context, and "dull" is just so wrong...

Late in the story I noticed Koizumi observing that, "Eutopia and Dystopia are two sides of the same mirror." Hmmm...did he really say that? My ears always light up when I encounter such an interesting mixed metaphor.

== Live A Live ==

This is the one story that I feel was substantially improved upon in the anime compared to the book. Of course the story as written has an unworkably long performance sequence for the anime, but set that aside. "God Knows" in particular is an actually great performance of an actually great song. Hirano Aya belts this one out of the park, and the animaters did it justice. Beyond that, the reaction of the audience is more congruent. Audiences don't reward a stunningly great pop music performance with stunned silence. Also it's more in the realm of plausibility to get solid interpretations for two songs worked out in an hour, rather than trying to construct solid interpretations on the fly for several songs. Finally, I like how "God Knows" can be taken as a "confession." You don't have to read it that way, but I take it as a factor in Kyon's stunned expression.

== Charmed at First Sight LOVER ==

This chapter includes an important scene between Koizumi and Kyon which pivots on this line:

「どっちがトムキャットだ」

currently interpreted as, "Who's the tomcat?" This is Kyon's response to Koizumi saying:

"Besides, you could still mess around with Suzumiya-san to reduce stress. Unfortunately, I do not have such a luxury."

What does this mean? In the context, Kyon could be, in essense, calling Koizumi a pussy - "Then who's your boyfriend?"; this was my first take. But take it a little further and this interpretation feels cross-threaded. Kyon doesn't make this kind of insult - he's prickly, not intrusively stabbing with his sarcasm. Also Kyon doesn't take Koizumi lightly. Plus having a tomcat boyfriend wouldn't necessarily be an obstacle.

It's more plausible that Kyon means that Koizumi is both bolder and more promiscuous/detached, and therefore better qualified to "mess around" with Haruhi. Kyon knows himself to not be a tomcat, and of course he is wary of having his heart ripped out. He is a bit envious of Koizumi's defenses. The main point of the scene is that Koizumi reveals some vulnerability to Kyon even through his mask. It ties in with the chronologically later "confession" Koizumi makes in Snow Mountain Syndrome, a confession of loyalty to the SOS Dan ahead of the Organization.

:No interpretation, that's exactly what it says :p It's quite clearly a stab at Koizumi's "ambiguous preferences"... he's not calling him a pussy - he's implying Koizumi is gay. (ie: Tomcat = un-neutered male cat / "Who's the tomcat?" = "Who's the guy you're fooling around with?") [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:54, 25 January 2007 (PST)

Ultimately I settled on a reading based on Harhuhi's threat earlier in the scene to exile Kyon with a salt fish in his mouth to fight for territory with other cats, i.e. it's an ambivalent bitter/sarcastic remark about who is more the outsider, primarily, with any implications about promiscuity/sexuality in the background.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:31, 16 February 2007 (PST)

== Editor Status, ==

Welcome to the editorial Staff,

I forgot to mention that continuous contribution to the wiki over a undisclosed period will automatically level you up.

Action speak louder then words. ;)

of course if you wish to decline you may do so, if you wish to accept just move your name on the Haruhi front page to the "active" group.

Thank you for your contribution and i hope you will continue to do so in the future.

Regards,

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:26, 15 February 2007 (PST)

As has been indicated earlier, this nominal status change may have little consequence, as I have been pretty much doing exactly what I want to do anyway; however, I appreciate it as an indication of "system health." It reduces cognitive dissonance. I'm still human enough to appreciate it on a personal level as well.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 05:56, 16 February 2007 (PST)

== "Squeamish" ==

To sum up other discussion, I took note of "squeamish" as a word appearing several times in the translation, usually inappropriately in my view. I theorized that it as a "placeholder," reflecting some sort of default interpretation of an underlying Japanese expression with multiple possible meanings. Discussion with Smidge204 on a particular instance from "Lone Island Syndrome" boils down to this:

"Does this mansion have a name?" Haruhi asked, Keiichi-san smiled squeamishly and answered, "Right now we haven't come up with one, if you have any suggestions for the name, I'm all ears."

Nutcase: Why would Keiichi-san be smiling in a "fastidious, easily disgusted way" at this point? Otherwise, he is portrayed as easy-going and tolerant. It's not congruent. "Wryly" is congruent.

Smidege204: The line in question is "ハルヒの問いに圭一さんは苦笑い" in which "苦笑い" means "bitter smile" - so wryly fits perfectly here :)

"Bitter smile" is, on it's face, an expression that invites multiple interpretations depending on context.

"Squeamish" is actually a good choice as a translator's default as long as it is understood to be a placeholder; it's easy to find and usually so incongruent that it obviously needs to be replaced when somebody gets around to it. The author's intention is going to be particularly nuanced exactly on this sort of point, so a translator may well want to bypass it while doing the heavy lifting part of the translation. One wants to finish framing before breaking out the planes and the sandpaper.

This is my view. Since it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, I have acted on this view, examining, with scalpel in hand, all examples of "squeamish." ;)

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-17T02:43:59Z

Nutcase:

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 6

2007-02-16T18:43:00Z

Nutcase: /* Tortoise or Turtle? */

== Tortoise or Turtle? ==

Are you sure that the original text refers to a "tortoise", and not a "turtle" as was the translation in the previous chapter?

Tortoises have legs, and live on land, while turtles have flippers and can swim...

--[[User:Shadowfall|Shadowfall]] 11:46, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:We had a [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=728 discussion about this before], and it seems we implicitly agreed it should be turtle. Coupled with the description given in the text when Kyon buys the critter (chapter 5 - a tank filled with water), I'd say it's turtles all the way down... sort of speak. :) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:33, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::LOL. It seems to be a "tortoisy" yellow-margined box turtle. I'll put something in the discussion in the earlier chapter.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 11:53, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Okay, so I finally read through chapter5, and its a golden coin turtle, another box turtle species. Distinction without a difference for our purposes...--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:43, 16 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 5

2007-02-16T16:30:57Z

Nutcase: "Changing"

=='''Translator's Notes'''==

==='''tachi'''===

The tachi is a Japanese long sword which is slightly longer than a katana. It was used primarily on horseback, where it was able to be drawn efficiently for cutting down enemy footsoldiers. However, on the ground, while it was still an effective weapon, it was nevertheless awkward to use. This is why its companion, the uchigatana (the predecessor of the katana) was developed.

For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachi

==='''Daruma doll'''===

Daruma dolls, also known as dharma, are hollow and round Japanese wish dolls with no arms or legs, modelled after Bodhidharma. Typical colors are red (most common), yellow, green, and white. The doll has a face with a moustache and beard, but its eyes only contain the color white. Using black ink, one fills in a single circular eye while thinking of a wish. Should the wish later come true, the second eye is filled in.

Chances are, you've seen it in anime or manga, but here's a link with pictures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daruma_doll

==='''Insalata Caprese'''===

Insalata Caprese (Salad in the style of Capri) is a simple salad of sliced fresh mozzarella, plum tomatoes and basil from the Italian region of Campania. It is seasoned with salt, black pepper, and olive oil. The main ingredients are similar to Pizza Margherita, but are not cooked. The dish represents the main colours of the Italian flag.

==='''Risotto alla Milanese'''===

An Italian dish which includes a specially-prepared rice called 'risotto',
served with chicken or beef stock and saffron, and usually together with
osso buco, a stew made from veal (cattle) bones.

==='''Pheasant's Eye'''===

Also known as ''Adonis amurensis'', a small, yellow flower. They are called fukuju (福寿草)in Japanese.

Since the English wiki doesn't have an entry for it, I'll direct you to the Japanese wiki page if you want pictures: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A6%8F%E5%AF%BF%E8%8D%89

==='''Persian Violets'''===

Although they are called Persian Violets, they are not related to violets in any manner. They are (as their name suggests) violet and their scientific name is ''Cyclamen persicum''.

For pictures and info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclamen

==='''Hairy Violets'''===

Yes, I know. Strange names so far -.-

A member of the Viola genus, their scientific name is ''Viola hirta''. For a picture, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_hirta

==='''Chinese Box Turtle'''===

Also known as the Golden Headed turtle and the snake eating turtle. They are an endangered species, and are found mostly in Japan, Taiwan and China.

For pictures, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_box_turtle

==='''Golden Coin Turtle'''===

They are also called the Three-Striped Box Turtle. They are found mostly in Asia, are critically endangered, and are notoriously known for their usage in a traditional Chinese herbal jelly called Guilinggao. Its scientific name is ''Cuora trifasciata''.

For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_coin_turtle

=='''Editor's Notes'''==

== "Changing" ==

:“Even if the future were to change, I don’t care. What’s important is it should start changing now.”

I can't quite make sense of this line as is. My impression is that it means something like:

:“Even if the future were to change, I don’t care. What’s important is that the future should emerge out of the now.”--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 08:30, 16 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 5

2007-02-16T16:24:44Z

Nutcase:

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-16T14:31:25Z

Nutcase: /* Charmed at First Sight LOVER */

To preserve for ongoing consideration

As a ''personal'' preference, if I see something that is "very wrong" I try to correct it using the following methods, in this order: Change word forms (eg adverb<->adjective), Change word order, alter grammar and punctuation, add minor word (it/and/the etc), remove words. If it seems ''really'' off then usually there's a forum post about it and a consult with the original Japanese. Just my way of doing it, though. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 08:43, 11 January 2007 (PST)
----

To sum up other discussion, I took note of "squeamish" as a word appearing several times in the translation, usually inappropriately in my view. I theorized that it as a "placeholder," reflecting some sort of default interpretation of an underlying Japanese expression with multiple possible meanings. Discussion with Smidge204 on a particular instance from "Lone Island Syndrome" boils down to this:

"Does this mansion have a name?" Haruhi asked, Keiichi-san smiled squeamishly and answered, "Right now we haven't come up with one, if you have any suggestions for the name, I'm all ears."

Nutcase: Why would Keiichi-san be smiling in a "fastidious, easily disgusted way" at this point? Otherwise, he is portrayed as easy-going and tolerant. It's not congruent. "Wryly" is congruent.

Smidege204: The line in question is "ハルヒの問いに圭一さんは苦笑い" in which "苦笑い" means "bitter smile" - so wryly fits perfectly here :)

"Bitter smile" is, on it's face, an expression that invites multiple interpretations depending on context.

"Squeamish" is actually a good choice as a translator's default as long as it is understood to be a placeholder; it's easy to find and usually so incongruent that it obviously needs to be replaced when somebody gets around to it. The author's intention is going to be particularly nuanced exactly on this sort of point, so a translator may well want to bypass it while doing the heavy lifting part of the translation. One wants to finish framing before breaking out the planes and the sandpaper.

This is my view. Since it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, I have acted on this view, examining, with scalpel in hand, all examples of "squeamish." ;)

== Lone Mountain Syndrome ==

I did a very messy job of editing this chapter. It's embarrassing. Oh well, live and learn.

90% is just the usual clean-up stuff, uncontroversial. The entryway layout is somewhat more consequential. I do figure it for double doors as the best explanation for the mixed use of "gates" and "doors."

Another somewhat questionable point has to do with the "What's with you and Yuki" scene; at the end, I first changed "dull" eyes (can't possibly be right) to "brimming," but that seemed out of character - not out of the question, congruent with blinking, but still...so finally I downshifted to "soft." Probably impossible to distinguish "dull" and "soft" in the original Japanese without the context, and "dull" is just so wrong...

Late in the story I noticed Koizumi observing that, "Eutopia and Dystopia are two sides of the same mirror." Hmmm...did he really say that? My ears always light up when I encounter such an interesting mixed metaphor.

== Live A Live ==

This is the one story that I feel was substantially improved upon in the anime compared to the book. Of course the story as written has an unworkably long performance sequence for the anime, but set that aside. "God Knows" in particular is an actually great performance of an actually great song. Hirano Aya belts this one out of the park, and the animaters did it justice. Beyond that, the reaction of the audience is more congruent. Audiences don't reward a stunningly great pop music performance with stunned silence. Also it's more in the realm of plausibility to get solid interpretations for two songs worked out in an hour, rather than trying to construct solid interpretations on the fly for several songs. Finally, I like how "God Knows" can be taken as a "confession." You don't have to read it that way, but I take it as a factor in Kyon's stunned expression.

== Charmed at First Sight LOVER ==

This chapter includes an important scene between Koizumi and Kyon which pivots on this line:

「どっちがトムキャットだ」

currently interpreted as, "Who's the tomcat?" This is Kyon's response to Koizumi saying:

"Besides, you could still mess around with Suzumiya-san to reduce stress. Unfortunately, I do not have such a luxury."

What does this mean? In the context, Kyon could be, in essense, calling Koizumi a pussy - "Then who's your boyfriend?"; this was my first take. But take it a little further and this interpretation feels cross-threaded. Kyon doesn't make this kind of insult - he's prickly, not intrusively stabbing with his sarcasm. Also Kyon doesn't take Koizumi lightly. Plus having a tomcat boyfriend wouldn't necessarily be an obstacle.

It's more plausible that Kyon means that Koizumi is both bolder and more promiscuous/detached, and therefore better qualified to "mess around" with Haruhi. Kyon knows himself to not be a tomcat, and of course he is wary of having his heart ripped out. He is a bit envious of Koizumi's defenses. The main point of the scene is that Koizumi reveals some vulnerability to Kyon even through his mask. It ties in with the chronologically later "confession" Koizumi makes in Snow Mountain Syndrome, a confession of loyalty to the SOS Dan ahead of the Organization.

:No interpretation, that's exactly what it says :p It's quite clearly a stab at Koizumi's "ambiguous preferences"... he's not calling him a pussy - he's implying Koizumi is gay. (ie: Tomcat = un-neutered male cat / "Who's the tomcat?" = "Who's the guy you're fooling around with?") [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:54, 25 January 2007 (PST)

Ultimately I settled on a reading based on Harhuhi's threat earlier in the scene to exile Kyon with a salt fish in his mouth to fight for territory with other cats, i.e. it's an ambivalent bitter/sarcastic remark about who is more the outsider, primarily, with any implications about promiscuity/sexuality in the background.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:31, 16 February 2007 (PST)

== Editor Status, ==

Welcome to the editorial Staff,

I forgot to mention that continuous contribution to the wiki over a undisclosed period will automatically level you up.

Action speak louder then words. ;)

of course if you wish to decline you may do so, if you wish to accept just move your name on the Haruhi front page to the "active" group.

Thank you for your contribution and i hope you will continue to do so in the future.

Regards,

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:26, 15 February 2007 (PST)

As has been indicated earlier, this nominal status change may have little consequence, as I have been pretty much doing exactly what I want to do anyway; however, I appreciate it as an indication of "system health." It reduces cognitive dissonance. I'm still human enough to appreciate it on a personal level as well.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 05:56, 16 February 2007 (PST)

User talk:Nutcase

2007-02-16T13:56:18Z

Nutcase: /* Editor Status, */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-16T05:12:44Z

Nutcase:

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Being decisive is useless if you don't get up and do it. The action is more important, and that leaves room for impulsive behavior too. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 03:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

::Thanks, Smidge, that fits perfectly. Without further comment will delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== The pressure is different ==

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different, [T/L note: You know what, I give up on this line. No matter how I word it, it’ll be crap.]

Care to take a crack at this one, Smidge? Where Kyon is going here is pretty obvious, so suppose I could just make up something... ;-)

There are various other untranslated bits and other translator comments. I think I'll start porting them all over here and port whatever consensus emerges back after a day or two, assuming somebody ventures an opinion. Without objection, that's how I'll proceed.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:01, 15 February 2007 (PST)

:The paragraph is as follows:

::まあ、いいのか。〈神人〉のいるバカ空間に引きずり込まれたり、秋なのに桜を満開にさせたりすることに比べたら、ここから月かアンドロメダ星雲のどちらかを選んで行って帰ってくるくらいの違《ちが》いがある。なら圧倒《あっとう》的に月のほうがマシだ。すでに人間の足が触《ふ》れている天体と銀河鉄道に乗らんといかんくらいの前人未踏《ぜんじんみ　とう》の彼方《かなた》では大違いさ。もっとも、俺は閉鎖《へいさ》空間も秋の異常現象も経験済みなわけだが。

:(Note: Characters in 《》are the furigana for the kanji that proceeds them.)

:It seems to me that Kyon is comparing the current atmosphere with his past experiences. To him the situation feels weird, but doesn't have the same feel as all the other weird things that have happened before. Does that make sense?

:It's actually the last two sentences that are missing.

:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 15:05, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Well then, how about this? It would be miraculous if the particular metaphor is in the original text, but I'm pretty confident that this in the right general direction:

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different. '''I may miss my footing in the dark, but I'm not on the edge of an abyss.''' At least the Sealed Realities and the endless Autumn ended reasonably for everyone.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 21:12, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Suzumiya Haruhi

2007-02-16T03:01:39Z

Nutcase: Accepting "Editor" designation

This is just a story that I picked up a while ago to practice my English writing skills.
If you want to correct any grammatical/spelling mistakes feel free to do so.

If you are going to post a portion or the whole translation elsewhere, please contact me.

- [[User:thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] [Project Founder]

Please read the '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/index.php Baka-Tsuki Project Forum]''' for news/opinions.

== ++Sticky!++ ==

The [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/index.php Baka-Tsuki Project Forum] is now active! We will be shifting the more heavy discussion there to stop the project pages from getting cluttered, so head on over and register!

== Updates ==

Older updates can be found [[Update|here]].

----

*Dec 19, 2006
**'''News Announcement: A poll has been created to resolve the issue about the rival entity's name. Please head over to http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3744#3744 to make yourself heard!'''

*Dec 27, 2006
** Volume 6 - Charmed at First Sight LOVER translation complete

*Jan 10, 2007
** Volume 7 - Translation of Chapter 2 completed and updated.
** DOUBLE RELEASE! Volume 7 Chapter 3 completed and updated!

*February 12, 2007
** Five Chapter Release - Translation completed for Volume 7: Chapters 4, 5, 6, 7, and Epilogue.

== Translators ==
This is our Project Translators Team:

*[[User:thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] [Project Administrator]

*'''ACTIVE'''
::*[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]]
::*[[User:BaKaFiSh|BaKaFiSh]]
::*[[user:HolyCow|HolyCow]]
::*[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]]

*'''A.W.O.L'''
::*[[User:Harunako|Harunako]]
::*[[User:Shiratoriryuuko|Shiratoriryuuko]]

*'''M.I.A'''
::*[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

*'''K.I.A'''
::*[[User:arcticphoenix16|arcticphoenix16]]

==== Scripts Partially Contributed ====

We would like to thank these users for contributing portions of translated script:

*[[user:skythewood|skythewood]]

Note: Please [[User_talk:Thelastguardian|contact thelastguardian]] if you are planning to contribute a significant amount of script.

User who wish to contribute partially translated scripts but wish not to continue with the whole chapter
i.e. become a fully fledged Project Translator therefore expected to contribute regularly.
Please inform [[user:onizuka-gto|onizuka-gto]] before submitting, this includes both Anonymous & Registered Users.

'''Translators are asked to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration Page|register]] which chapters they're working on''' (see [[Format_guideline#Translators|the Guideline page]] for usage rules).

== Editors ==

This is the Project Editorial Team.
They will regularly patrol the projects to prevent vandalism & make sure the guidelines are implemented. If you have any inquiries about certain edits, please contact any one of the members.

*[[user:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] [Project Supervisor]

*'''ACTIVE'''
::*[[user:The naming game|The naming game]]
::*[[user:Bicube|Bicube]]
::*[[user:Darkoneko|Darkoneko]]
::*[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] (Image Editor)
::*[[user:Nutcase|Nutcase]]
*'''A.W.O.L'''
::*[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]]
::*[[User:keito|keito]] (PDF Editor)
*'''R&R'''
::*[[user:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]
*'''M.I.A'''
::*[[User:Psieye|Psieye]]
::*[[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]
*'''K.I.A'''
::*[[User:Adelina|Adelina]]
::*[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]]
::*[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]]

----

==== New Editors Watchlist ====

Users whose frequent & continuous contributions are worth mentioning:

*[[user:Molitar|Molitar]] - Download Molitar's pdf of Volume One on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=121 forum]
*[[user:Nutcase|Nutcase]]
*[[user:Smidge204|Smidge204]]

Please contact [[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] if you think I have left your name out.

== Translation ==

'''Every Chapter (after editing) must conform to the agreed points highlighted in the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Format_guideline Unified Format Guideline]'''

Some of these chapters are translations of the '''Chinese edition''' of the novels, which are known to have some minor mistakes compared to the original Japanese text. If you have access to the originals and you spot an error, '''please feel free to make the corrections yourself''' - this is a Wiki which means it's meant for anyone to fix things (and if you screw up, we can revert back your changes if all deem necessary). We can see the corrections you make, so just go ahead instead of hiding or waiting for permission. --[[User:Psieye|Psieye]]

Just to add something else. I have changed the permission setting for the Wiki. '''You don't have to have an account to edit a page.''' Please do note that if you abuse this feature, I will personally hunt you down :) . --[[User:thelastguardian|thelastguardian]]

Strato (of #a.f.k. translator fame) is currently translating the novels on his own terms, from '''Japanese to English'''. If you would like to view that [http://www12.brinkster.com/stratoct/haruhi.htm translation], you are more than welcome to do so. However, please keep in mind that this does not mean you can simply replace the current translations as is. If there were details that were missed in our Translation Teams scripts that should be changed, feel free to make the changes. Replacing the entire script immediately is a no-no.
--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]]

=== Timeline ===
At this [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Timeline|link]] you can view the timeline in which the Haruhi novels should be read, should one want to see this in chronological order.

== The ''Suzumiya Haruhi'' series, by [[Tanigawa Nagaru]] ==

===[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Full Text|Volume 1 - ''The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第一巻: 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱]]===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Prologue|Prologue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter2|Chapter 2]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter4|Chapter 4]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|Chapter 5]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Chapter 6]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter7|Chapter 7]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Epilogue|Epilogue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Editor's Notes|Editor's Notes]]

===[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Full Text|Volume 2 - ''The Sighs of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第二巻: 涼宮ハルヒの溜息]] ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Prologue|Prologue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Chapter2|Chapter 2]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Chapter4|Chapter 4]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Chapter5|Chapter 5]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Epilogue|Epilogue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume2_Author's notes|Author's notes]]

===[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Full Text|Volume 3 - ''The Boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第三巻: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈]] ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Prologue|Prologue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_The Boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi|The Boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Bamboo_Leaf_Rhapsody|Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Mystérique Sign|Mystérique Sign]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Lone Island Syndrome|Lone Island Syndrome]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume3_Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

===[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume4 Full Text|Volume 4 - ''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第四巻: 涼宮ハルヒの消失]] ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Prologue|Prologue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter2|Chapter 2]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter4|Chapter 4]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter5|Chapter 5]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Chapter6|Chapter 6]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Epilogue|Epilogue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume4_Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

===[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Full Text|Volume 5 - ''The Rampage of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第五巻: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走]] ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume5_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Prologue - Summer|Prologue - Summer]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Endless Eight|Endless Eight]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Prologue - Autumn|Prologue - Autumn]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 The Day of Sagittarius|The Day of Sagittarius]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Prologue - Winter|Prologue - Winter]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Snow Mountain Syndrome|Snow Mountain Syndrome]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume5 Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

===[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume6 Full Text|Volume 6 - ''The Wavering of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第六巻: 涼宮ハルヒの動揺]] ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume6 Live A Live|Live A Live]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6 Asahina Mikuru's Adventure Episode 00|Asahina Mikuru's Adventure Episode 00]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_Charmed at First Sight LOVER|Charmed at First Sight LOVER]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6 Where did the Cat Go?|Where did the Cat Go?]] (64% Completed)
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6_The_Melancholy_of_Asahina_Mikuru|The Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume6 Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

=== Volume 7 - ''The Intrigues of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第七巻: 涼宮ハルヒの陰謀 ===
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Prologue|Prologue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 1|Chapter 1]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 2|Chapter 2]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 3|Chapter 3]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 4|Chapter 4]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 5|Chapter 5]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 6|Chapter 6]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Chapter 7|Chapter 7]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7_Epilogue|Epilogue]]
::*[[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume7 Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

=== Volume 8 - ''The Indignation of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第八巻: 涼宮ハルヒの憤慨 ===
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Illustrations|Color Illustrations]]
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Editor in Chief★Straight Ahead!|Editor in Chief★Straight Ahead!]] (75% Completed)
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Wandering Shadow|Wandering Shadow]] (43% Completed)
::*[[Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume8 Author's Notes|Author's Notes]]

== Series Overview ==
* Volume 1 - ''The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第一巻: 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱
* Volume 2 - ''The Sighs of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第二巻: 涼宮ハルヒの溜息
* Volume 3 - ''The Boredom of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第三巻: 涼宮ハルヒの退屈
* Volume 4 - ''The Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第四巻: 涼宮ハルヒの消失
* Volume 5 - ''The Rampage of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第五巻: 涼宮ハルヒの暴走
* Volume 6 - ''The Wavering of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第六巻: 涼宮ハルヒの動揺
* Volume 7 - ''The Intrigues of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第七巻: 涼宮ハルヒの陰謀
* Volume 8 - ''The Indignation of Suzumiya Haruhi'' / 第八巻: 涼宮ハルヒの憤慨
* Volume 9 - ''Suzumiya Haruhi no Honsou'' / 第九巻: 涼宮ハルヒの奔走 (not yet published)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 6

2007-02-15T19:53:05Z

Nutcase: /* Tortoise or Turtle? */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-15T18:38:18Z

Nutcase: /* The pressure is different */

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Being decisive is useless if you don't get up and do it. The action is more important, and that leaves room for impulsive behavior too. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 03:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

::Thanks, Smidge, that fits perfectly. Without further comment will delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== The pressure is different ==

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different, [T/L note: You know what, I give up on this line. No matter how I word it, it’ll be crap.]

Care to take a crack at this one, Smidge? Where Kyon is going here is pretty obvious, so suppose I could just make up something... ;-)

There are various other untranslated bits and other translator comments. I think I'll start porting them all over here and port whatever consensus emerges back after a day or two, assuming somebody ventures an opinion. Without objection, that's how I'll proceed.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:01, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-15T17:01:44Z

Nutcase: The pressure is different

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Being decisive is useless if you don't get up and do it. The action is more important, and that leaves room for impulsive behavior too. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 03:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

::Thanks, Smidge, that fits perfectly. Without further comment will delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

== The pressure is different ==

:Well, is it bad if it keeps going like this? If we compare this with the time I got put into the Avatars’ closed space, or when it was clearly Autumn but the cherry blossoms had appeared and were filling in the classroom, this place is only as difficult as having to choose to return home by either the light of the moon or the Andromeda galaxy. The pressure is different, [T/L note: You know what, I give up on this line. No matter how I word it, it’ll be crap.]

Care to take a crack at this one? Where Kyon is going here is pretty obvious, so suppose I could just make up something... ;-)--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:01, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-15T15:40:24Z

Nutcase:

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-15T15:38:47Z

Nutcase: /* If they only sit... */

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== Cat scene ==

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he hmphed  and jumped right back onto my bed.

:So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata',  only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a 'ぐふにゃあ'  and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister following him. Since they started this noise right in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

:As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~'  while letting Shamisen sit on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

I suggest the following:

I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he 'hmphed' and jumped right back onto my bed.

So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata', only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a complaining 'gnnyaa!' and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister in pursuit. Since they started this noise first thing in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~' while draping Shamisen on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:If all you did was spell out the sound effect, I don't see why you needed to post this! :) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:38, 13 February 2007 (PST)

Well okay. There are some other tweaks in there based on how I visualize the action. I characterize the sound as complaining, for example. But it's inconsequential stuff for sure, and probably uncontroversial. Without further comment, I'll make the change and delete this exchange in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:00, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Being decisive is useless if you don't get up and do it. The action is more important, and that leaves room for impulsive behavior too. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 03:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

::Thanks, Smidge, that fits perfectly. Without further comment will delete this section in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 07:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-15T03:04:44Z

Nutcase: If they only sit...

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== Cat scene ==

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he hmphed  and jumped right back onto my bed.

:So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata',  only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a 'ぐふにゃあ'  and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister following him. Since they started this noise right in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

:As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~'  while letting Shamisen sit on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

I suggest the following:

I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he 'hmphed' and jumped right back onto my bed.

So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata', only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a complaining 'gnnyaa!' and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister in pursuit. Since they started this noise first thing in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~' while draping Shamisen on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:If all you did was spell out the sound effect, I don't see why you needed to post this! :) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:38, 13 February 2007 (PST)

Well okay. There are some other tweaks in there based on how I visualize the action. I characterize the sound as complaining, for example. But it's inconsequential stuff for sure, and probably uncontroversial. Without further comment, I'll make the change and delete this exchange in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:00, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

== If they only sit... ==

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they only sit on their asses, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just say it clearly.

This passage is hard to follow as is.I've already messed with it some, figuring the "you to help" as Koizumi, rather than Mikuru. What follows is my best guess about the author's intent, but if someone might care to check it against the original...

:I think Asahina-san already knows there’s another her in this time. If she really does know, I should go talk to her about it. Did I come here just to have that chat with her? That would be convenient. I’ve already got Tsuruya-san to help me, I don’t need you to help with this anymore, Koizumi. So, I don’t think I’ll tell him anything. Humans, if they aren't decisive, will not come up with any good ideas. If you’re always hesitating and stopping, you might as well just decide it clearly.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 19:04, 14 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-14T21:21:05Z

Nutcase: /* Inchworm tense frame */

Erm, yeah I removed the clear nonsense added by 201. whatever. Now you have taken it back to Bakafish's first update - he had done a second with a few more line in. When I put in "vandalism" I mean fixing it, not carrying it out - please compare versions. - [[User:81.101.40.82|81.101.40.82]] 16:46, 14 January 2007 (PST)

== Cat scene ==

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he hmphed  and jumped right back onto my bed.

:So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata',  only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a 'ぐふにゃあ'  and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister following him. Since they started this noise right in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

:As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~'  while letting Shamisen sit on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

I suggest the following:

I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. Then I lifted Shamisen from my sister's wrist and shifted him down off my bed. Being the bothersome cat he is, he 'hmphed' and jumped right back onto my bed.

So then I changed, my sister standing by the side there pinching Shamisen's furry cheeks. He immediately resisted and started to scamper away with a 'pata pata', only to have two hands latch onto his tail. So, he let out a complaining 'gnnyaa!' and promptly escaped by running out of my room, my sister in pursuit. Since they started this noise first thing in the morning, I was awake in no time at all.

As I walked out of my room and started to wash my face, I saw my sister crooning 'Kitty scarf~' while draping Shamisen on the back of her neck. Shamisen was hanging on to my sister's woolen sweater, trying to defy her as best he could. Accordingly, I decided to ignore them calmly.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 06:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:If all you did was spell out the sound effect, I don't see why you needed to post this! :) [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:38, 13 February 2007 (PST)

Well okay. There are some other tweaks in there based on how I visualize the action. I characterize the sound as complaining, for example. But it's inconsequential stuff for sure, and probably uncontroversial. Without further comment, I'll make the change and delete this exchange in a while.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:00, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== "Against the sun." ==

:As she said this, Haruhi looked like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid that ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. After entering the month of February, I had been fooled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

How should we interpret this? Is this Haruhi with an expression so dark that it defeats the sun, so arrogant as to trample the gods or (most likely in my view) so bright it outshines the sun? Kyon's response is hard to fit on the dark or arrogant interpretation. On the bright interpretation I'd suggest:

:As she said this, Haruhi glowed like she fought against the sun, and won. I hid away my own ‘child-that-came-out-to-play’ smile, I’ll use it later if I remember to, is what I wanted to say, but I chose not to.

:Come to think of it, this is Haruhi’s spirit-filled face. Since entering the month of February, I had been lulled by her trickery. I don’t know why I feel like I was deceived.

--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 10:02, 13 February 2007 (PST)

:I think this is an extension of an earlier passage where Kyon describes a "battle" between the sun and the wind:
::''One side of my head was taking a bath in something that seemed like the North Wind in all its glory doing battle with the sun, so I hid my face in my scarf and walked forwards.''
:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 11:06, 13 February 2007 (PST)

::Interesting take, that hadn't occurred to me. So if we take Haruhi as cold and blustery...well, that actually fits with the sharp banter at least as well, I could go with that. The more I consider, the more I like it. So the first line could become:

:::As she said this, Haruhi looked like the North Wind had won out against the sun.

::Or am I reaching for too much explicitness?

:: As an aside, this may parallel an earlier point of discussion about, "then who's the tomcat," where I ultimately concluded that the meaning was tied to something earlier in the scene. I need to open up my contextual frame for deciphering these things.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 15:14, 13 February 2007 (PST)

== Inchworm tense frame ==

Or, "I'll be in the moment in a moment."

I find a strict present tense construction for Kyon's narration to be very unnatural and awkward-sounding to my mind's ear. Mulling this over, I concluded that my own internal mental discourse tends to move like an inchworm, alternating between present tense framing and immediate past framing. Consider this version of the opening scene:

:The second morning, I was awakened by my little sister who came to shut off my alarm. (RP=recent past)

:It's noisy, isnt it Shami? (P=present)

:My sister picked up a curled-up Shamisen, hugging him close, and then put that pile of fur on my nose, asking,

:"It's breakfast~~. Are you gonna eat~?" (RP to P)

:This voice, which belongs to a tone-deaf person who constantly practices singing in order to get good at it, irritates my brain more than the alarm did. (P)

:"I'm eating."

:I brushed away the claws my sister was playing with and picked myself up. (RP)

I'm going to proceed on this basis for the moment.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 09:35, 14 February 2007 (PST)

:Don't forget that the entire story is in past narrative, so it's common for tense to jump about especially when dialog is concerned. [[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 10:03, 14 February 2007 (PST)

::True. The time framing has been set up by the author in the interest of playfulness rather than ease of understanding and ease of translation - but it's not perversely complicated. The editing guidelines suggest defaulting to both present and past tenses, and they're both "right." Maybe this will be a way to express the underlying "truth" that's a little easier to use.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 13:21, 14 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-14T17:35:15Z

Nutcase: /* Inchworm tense frame */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-14T17:31:27Z

Nutcase: Inchworm tense frame

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-13T23:14:16Z

Nutcase: /* "Against the sun." */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-13T23:00:43Z

Nutcase: /* Cat scene */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-13T18:02:00Z

Nutcase: "Against the sun."

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume7 Chapter 4

2007-02-13T14:02:56Z

Nutcase: Cat scene

Format guideline

2007-02-12T13:49:03Z

Nutcase:

This page came about to lay down some foundation Guidelines to assist Editors & Translators alike to create a consistent reading format though out all the novels, to ensure the best Haruhi experience.

This page will be updated to include all terms, formats notes and other points for this project, it should always reflect the joint agreements of all parties.

This does not mean the Translators will have to take it upon themselves to apply the guidelines. This guide will mainly affect Editors, and we stress to Translators not to take it upon themselves to change their habits or preferences that will hamper your progress.

In short let the Editors do all the hard work, while you lot can continue to concentrate on the Translating (^-^)/

But as this implies this is not a Rule. It is a Guide, and you will not be punished for not agreeing to it, but at the same time know that any edits which will not comform to this guide will be corrected by other Users.

I strongly advise that if you really do have an issue with some of these accepted points, that you please add your voice to the Discussion on the Talk page, before you edit.

----

== '''Suzumiya Haruhi Series Format Guidelines''' ==

This page is a style guide for Suzumiya Haruhi Project. The consensus of many Editors & Translators formed the conventions described here. Translated Chapters should heed these rules. Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes.

== '''Translators''' ==

*Work will be divided by Chapters per Volume

*You are required to register which Chapters you wish to work on

*Registration is on a "First Come, First Served" please register your intended chapters on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration Page]

*The maximum number of chapters you are recommended to work on is no more than half of any given volume

*Maximum number of Translators per volume is two
**'''There is a proposal to change this Guideline see '''[http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=299 Proposal to revise the number of Translators per volume]'''

*Maximum number of volumes you may be active on is one

*Do not worry about first drafts, it will be the Editors job to clean it up. Discussion between Editors and Translators are advised.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:51, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*The Registration page is not some Binding Contract of "I must do the work I put down here". Choices put down here are negotiable between translators (including their own selves who signed up for it).

[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 17:01, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform [[User:Thelastguardian|thelastguardian]] and the designated Project Translator of the intend Chapters as shown on the [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Registration_Page Registration page] before any major contribution

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:33, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*In the event that another Translator wish to work on a Chapter that has already been registered, provided that s/he has translated the entire Chapter before hand, they may publish the script, but must mark it for all so that it is a "preview" which can be taken down without prior warning.

*Registered Translator of chapters which has "Preview" scripts has the right to take down or keep the script as see fit, when they are ready to work on that chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:18, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

== '''Editors''' ==

*Editors are required to justify in the related chapter Talk page for Major Edits. Which could be considered disputable

*Always fill in the summary box on all non-minor edits

*Editors are advised to communicate with Translators for any Major Edits

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:32, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Anonymous Editors ====

*Anonymous Editors are Welcome, but please note that any large edits, which are considered further then grammar and spelling corrections, must be justified in the Discussion page before hand.

*Anonymous Editors be aware that your edits will be reverted if you have not complied to the above points, this is to prevent perceived vandalism.

*Registration is free, and we strongly advised that you do, in order to acknowledge worthy contributions

*Always fill in the summary box after all edits, one word is better then nothing.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Dialogue and Narration Syntax Section ==

*No parenthesis (a.k.a. inverted commas/double quotation marks) for when Kyon's "inner dialogue leaks out"

*No-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line

*Use original tenses for Kyon's narration. For cases where this seems awkward, apply the following rule of thumb:
:Prologue and Vol 1 Ch 1 are Kyon's Backstory telling, therefore should default to Past Tense. Ch 2+ are Kyon living out his experiences, so default to Present Tense (and secondarily to Immediate Past Tense).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 15:46, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

*Since there's not much sarcasm within the Japanese language, an exclamation mark is used to emphasize Kyon's sarcasm on Haruhi's eccentricities. In Chinese, as the grammatical structure is similar, the punctuations are carried over. However, in English, Kyon's sarcastic and witty remarks actually works better ending with a fullstop than with an exclamation mark, since sarcasm in English is very subtle, the reader can sense it even without the exclamation mark.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 14.20, 24 April 2006 (BST)

*Please use past tense for all of Kyon's narration as with most of what I've read. This is the case for the latter chapters of volume one. The translators seem to use present tense for Kyon's constant tsukkomi (commentary), which is great. Perhaps the error that I correct the most is tense agreement within the same paragraph or sentence.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 04:17, 27 April 2006 (EST)

In my opinion, proper sarcasm does not always need to be accentuated by adding exclamation marks, which normally connotes heightened emotions, be it surprise, happiness, anger .etc
Basically, sarcasm is intended to be a witty ridicule which, more often than not, is fairly subtle.

e.g. "I watched Amy perform at the concert the other day." I mentioned.
"Oh really? I heard she wants to become a professional singer one day. How was her singing?" Mavis queried.
"Oh she does, does she? In which case, I shall remember to wish her all the best the next time I see her." I smiled.

Thus, not all of Kyon's sarcastic remarks or thoughts should have exclamations added to them but should be worded in a similarly sarcastic fashion, without adapting the meaning of the original text as much as possible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:00, 5 May 2006 (GMT)

== Correct English Terms ==

In this section we list the agreed English terms for specificly important words.

* '''Due to the nature of this website, and the nationality of the majority of Editors & Readers the standard spelling lexicon for this project will be based upon American English as defined by the Fourth Edition of the [http://www.bartleby.com/61/ American Heritage Dictionary]'''

*Those who are fluent in Native English who find difficulty in use of correct American English Spelling can find help with the online [http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/ American-British & British-American Dictionaries] (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:32, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

*Yuki's Alien Group

Integrated Data Sentient Entity/Information Synthesis Thought Entities

*Itsuki's Supernatural Group[[
"Kikan", "機関" = 'Organization'

(Single quotes used throughout to avoid syntactic confusion when this name appears in quoted phrases.--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 05:49, 12 February 2007 (PST))

Note: It has been conjectured by that the name of Itsuki's group is a reference by the author to the "Instrumentality of Man" in the science fiction classics by Cordwainer Smith.

* "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

* "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

* "Aliens, Time Travellers, Sliders and Espers" as opposed to say "futurian" or "out-of-worlder"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:26, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

* Why "Espers" for 超能力者？ Esper implies only a tlepath, while 超能力者 can mean any kind of person with supernatural powers, though they are usually psychic in nature. "Psychic" is perhaps a better match.
--[[User:Kerry|Kerry]] 16:12, 1 November 2006 (PST)

* "Classified information" rather than "No comment" for information Asahina is unable to tell

*Haruhi's Mental Manifestation
"Shinjins"= "Avatars"

Note: Literally meaning "God like Being", Shinjins reflect Haruhi's mental condition; it can be likened to the "Angels" from "Neon Genesis Evangelion", whose mental boundaries are physical, unlike humans who keep mental conflicts within their organic minds. Haruhi's mental state manifests within an alternative "Sealed Reality" on earth to vent her cognitive dissonance.

*Name of the alternative reality Haruhi's mental state appears
"Heisa Kuukan"= "Sealed Reality"

Note: This is where the "Avatar" of Haruhi manifests itself to vent her cognitive dissonance. It is literally a parallel reality effectively locked within a region on earth. While physical landmarks such as buildings, streetlights, and roads are present and are frequently attacked by Haruhi's "Avatar" in this alternate reality, no humans are ever present. This environment is colored in a uniform shade of grey, and only members of the "Organization" can enter this "Sealed Reality".

*Name of the School Club

"SOS DAN", "SOS団" = "SOS Brigade"

"Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no Dan", "世界を大いに盛り上げるための涼宮ハルヒの団"= "Save our world by Overloading it with fun: Suzumiya Haruhi Brigade"

Note: The literal translation of the full name of the club is: "Group of enjoying the Suzumiya Haruhi in order to uplift the world greatly".
[''The above requires additional info & clarification'']

Perhaps a better literal translation of the above is: "Suzumiya Haruhi's group for greatly enlivening the world". The difficult part to translate is 盛り上げる [moriageru], which can mean to make something more fun, lively, or interesting. It is usually used with regards to a party, class in school, or some other group activity. There is no direct English translation.
--[[User:Kerry|Kerry]] 16:22, 1 November 2006 (PST)

==Common Japanese Terms==

The following terms will be considered well known enough to be used raw (without translation) - they'll be linked to a "Translator's Notes/Reference" section (to be discussed).

'''-san, -senpai, etc'''

:Japanese Honorifics are well known (note the spelling of "-se'''n'''pai" - not "-se'''m'''pai") though of course we should mention them in a Reference section in case someone happens to be unfamiliar.

'''Moe'''

:While its exact definition could be debated on, "turn-on factor" is a nice catch-all translation of it. It sounds a bit clunky in regular conversation though, so we'll use "Moe" in the text and link to another Translation Note explaining it.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:03, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

:Why not just use "cute", "hot", or "sexy" for "Moe", as the situation requires? Both are much less akward than "turn-on factor", which a native speaker would never use in the same situations.
--[[User:Kerry|Kerry]] 16:22, 1 November 2006 (PST)

**'''Translator Notes:'''

Se''m''pai is not necessarily wrong. I remember in my Japanese-classes that sometimes the ''n'' sound becomes an ''m'' before certain sounds. Examples like te''m''pura, shi''m''bun. When written, it is spelled with an ''n'', since the written ''m'' doesn't exist in Japanese, but it's pronounced with a ''m'' sound. An English analogy would be Leicester, prounounced as "Lester" and not "Ley-ces-ter", Warwick pronounced as "War-rick" and not "War-wick".

As for why I used "turn-on factor", as not everyone who reads the translation is familiar with otaku terminology, and I don't want to leave them out of it.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 00:11, 29 April 2006 (HKT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume2 Chapter5

2007-02-12T04:43:14Z

Nutcase: /* Confinement or Framework */

== References & Translators Notes ==

== Editors' Notes ==

== spotted cat ==

While the initial description as "spotted" is ambiguous, Shamisen turns out to be a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoiseshell_cat tortoiseshell cat], aka tricolor or calico. This is immediately obvious in the anime. As a tricolor male, his pedigree must be in some sense unusual, as tricolor in cats is a sex linked characteristic not seen in normal males. A tricolor male would be either XXY, with an extra sex chromosome, or a chimaera formed by the fusion of two embryos. With Haruhi involved, though, it might be something else entirely...

Koizumi and Kyon appear to appreciate this anomaly immediately. Haruhi appears to overlook it, which is a bit anomalous itself.

== Confinement or Framework ==

" "The structure of the story can be divided into three parts. First, it could occur within a certain confinement. Second, it could break through this confinement and create a new confinement. Third, it could repair the broken confinement back to its original state."

As expected, he began his lengthy speech in Martian, which would lead people to think, "What the hell is he talking about?" Asahina-san, you don't have to seriously listen to his bullshit!

"As we exist within this confinement, if we want to understand this world, we would need to think rationally, or understand it through observation."

What on earth is this confinement then?"

First of all, shouldn't this be three (alternative) forms rather than three parts?

Second, I think that "framework" would work much better than "confinement" here. Would this be an equal or better translation, Smidge?--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 11:27, 11 February 2007 (PST)

:Now I'm making command appearances? :p

:The word used in this paragraph is "framework" (枠組). I'm not comfortable with the grammar, though. My first impulse would be to describe the story as three ''phases'' but the original text clearly uses "or" to conjoin three clauses, rather than a series of events. I'd like to defer this to someone who actually knows the language. Original text is as follows:

:物語の構造は大まかに分けて三つに分類することが出来まず。物語世界の｜枠組みの中で進むか、枠組みを｜破壊して新たな枠組みを作り上げるか、破壊した枠組みをまた元通りに直してしまうか

:[[User:Smidge204|Smidge204]] 12:13, 11 February 2007 (PST)

::Smidge, by no means am I anything other than a humble supplicant at your feet, utterly dependent on your continued interest and good humor to achieve any glimmer of enlightenment within the dark fog of my ignorance about the original text. All kidding aside, I've come to expect your prompt and cogent responses, but I do not for a moment take them for granted. I know you don't owe me anything. Domo Arigato gozaimasu, and all like that there. ;)

On the first point, I can see both interpretations, as alternatives and as phases. I can even see the author jerking our chain by meaning both interpretations, as with a pun. I lean toward the alternatives interpretation in the overall context.

On the second point, "framework" it is. I'll revise accordingly. Thanks.
--[[User:Nutcase|Nutcase]] 20:43, 11 February 2007 (PST)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume2 Chapter5

2007-02-11T19:27:33Z

Nutcase: Confinement or Framework

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume2 Chapter5

2007-02-11T18:18:20Z

Nutcase: spotted cat