Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Umineko Volume 1: Chapter 0.2

2008-04-17T03:33:26Z

Sonozaki Futagotachi: /* Prayer */

==Prayer==

On this line:

こりゃあ、ぽっくり逝っちまったかなぁ、ナムナムナム。」

Heeey, maybe he dropped dead, namunamunamu [buddhist prayer for the dead]."

Wouldn't be better to switch to something like. 'Amen'. '*starts praying*' or something akin?

Except for the part where the the Japanese are for the most part not christian and it's not a christian prayer? By the same token, why wouldn't it be better to switch to a Jewish or Islamic prayer, since we're having fun changing things in the script?
What's wrong with a translator's note? --[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 16:14, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

Given how cosmopolitan Japanese religion practices are in the end I don't think it wouldn't be out of place. (at least I don't see another place in the world where the bride can actually choose between having two types of weddings so nonchalantly , when the types refer to different religions. Moreover *amen* is something understandable by almost everyone in the world thanks to our dear massive media. Heck, I'm an atheist so for all I care I'd change it to some of my native sects mantra's, but I think this way would be more understandable, specially in the western world.

Regarding using translators notes, *I* think that Translator's notes should only be used as a last resort technique, since they are normally disrupt the flow of the story and require the reader to refer to an append in order to understand what is happening. From my very personal POV they should only be used as a substitute for something that would be irremediably lost in translation, or that is crucial to the story. Neither is the case in the line I cited, so unless the team is taking a literal translation approach, localization would be better for this case. --[[User:Proto|Proto]]

I reallly have no problem with localization, when it is applied well. In this case, it's so trivial and understandable on its own that I really don't think putting *amen* in its place would be a good way to do anything. And yes, Japan is cosmopolitan - and vaguely agnostic as well, which is why religion there is so malleable. Translator notes are invasive, true, but in this case (I don't mean to be rude) I'd like to keep this intact, since I feel fans don't WANT stuff to be localized. --[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 19:33, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

Well indeed it's your call, I don't have qualms with that :p. If people don't complain about this particular matter I'd guess it'd be ok. Personally it helped me learn a new thing (I had no idea what that referred to >_<) --[[User:Proto|Proto]]

Personally, I feel like it is kinda rare to see "Amen" in funerals and such. If it would be necessary for an adaptation, I would say "my (sincere) condolences" or "Rest in peace". But "Amen" is way too vague and misleading with religion and such so... well that's my 2 cents [[User:Klashikari|Klashikari]] 11:34, 14 April 2008 (PDT)

I'm not really adamant on the amen part though, I only used it as an example. My main point was that we should use something more recognizable than "namunamunamu". Though, maybe it's just me. --[[User:Proto|Proto]]

How about "Heeey, maybe he dropped dead, bless his soul"? --[[User:Sonozaki Futagotachi|Sonozaki Futagotachi]] 20:33, 16 April 2008 (PDT)

==Being rude==

まぁた、母さんと俺の悪口を言ってたろぉ。
"Once again, I heard you being rude to me and your mother. [... heard you talking filthy about me with your mother. The と refers to the subject, not the object.]
Not necessarily. The Japanese is ambiguous. The subject can be 俺, Rudolf, with Battler talking filthy with Kyrie (母さんと), or 母さんと俺, since Battler was being rude to both. That's the interpretation I chose, since Rudolf seems a bit conceited about what's due to one's parents. --[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 19:42, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

It didn't gave me the impression he was being rude to his mother other than using impolite language and being a little direct (which, technically speaking should be expected since they are stepmother and stepson) which made me choose the former interpretation, but it doesn't really matter either way I guess... --[[User:Proto|Proto]]

It's not exactly that he's rude to his "mom", it's just that he shows a complete lack of respect to both, which Kyrie flows with of course, but that Rudolf doesn't like. But in fact, he should be more polite to his step-mom - politeness demands that he make her feel comfortable as a new mother, which means carrying out her whims with exquisite politeness in a standard traditional japanese family. He doesn't = he's rude.--[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 20:01, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

Talk:Umineko Volume 1: Chapter 0

2008-03-23T17:45:49Z

Sonozaki Futagotachi:

Translation comments. Please discuss here or PM on animesuki, or email me if you're not happy so we can discuss and not have pointless edit wars.

甘ったるい means "too sweet" not sour. Sour would be 酸っぱい.

I made Kinzo speak very "classy" since he's old and speaks old-ish japanese. The clause inversions, formal words (glass instead of cup and others), and semi-colons are normal.

意味 means "meaning". Nanjo is saying that if Kinzo keeps drinking, it won't have any ''meaning'' to continue the treatment, not that it will lose ''effect''; of course the medicine will lose effect, but what Nanjo is saying is that there won't be any use even pretending to try to heal Ginzo. It's a subtle difference.

Genji is asking confirmation politely. "quite" is appropriate in this sentence.

"liquor" is classier than "alcohol", and 酒 '''does not automatically mean''' "sake". "sake' in japan is 日本酒. 酒 can mean any alcoholic beverage. And japanese sake is never green.

心持ち薄めでな is a tricky sentence, but Kinzo is saying (mockingly) that he's weak of character and therefore can't resist the alcohol. He then says that Nanjo can "save face" if Genji gives him his drink, because then it makes true all of Nanjo's complaints. In short, Kinzo doesn't want the alcohol because he "feels" weak, it's because he can't resist it.

My apologizes for the rogue/brutal changes. I was actually gauging the various translations here and there. With your comments, many things were cleared, that's really a life saver.

As for the sake mention, yes indeed, I noticed that as well, and didn't exactly changed back to liquor early enough (see the history). I would hardly see Genji preparing sake with a green colourant XD [[User:Klashikari|Klashikari]] 06:59, 10 March 2008 (PDT)

----

'''About a specific expression:'''
I'm wondering if "すまぬ" really means "forgive me/excuse me". Kinzo says this when Genji is serving him his glass of liquor. Hence, shouldn't it be rather "thanks" ?
Since "suman" can be used as "(sorry for the trouble), thank you".
Of course, this might match as well if he is adressing himself to Nanjo, as he is taking a glass. The thing is the term used looks rather the former choice than the later, well at least to me XD [[User:Klashikari|Klashikari]] 01:24, 12 March 2008 (PDT)

That looks right. I was thinking he was saying sorry to Nanjo for not listening to him again, but that makes more sense and flows better. Fixed.--[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 04:40, 12 March 2008 (PDT)

Good points there; although it can be tricky to determine the flow of text and dialogue before seeing how it plays out in the VN, in this particular case I think you're correct that Kinzo is saying "Thanks" to Genji, and not "Excuse me" to Nanjo.
Further, immediately after that he makes a comment about the medicine not being as necessary, that the liquor is what keeps him alive. Since Kinzo wasn't already speaking to Nanjo (who isn't even on-screen during this line), then I think he's more speaking out loud about his love for booze. Therefore, I'll change "your medicine" to "the medicine". --[[User:Sonozaki Futagotachi|Sonozaki Futagotachi]] 17:47, 12 March 2008 (PDT)

----

Ok, I just checked the Sonozaki Futagotachi's version and I can't seem to understand why they posted it: it is merely an attempt to edit a few parts of the current translation, to make it more "literary", mostly in ways that I don't think are necessary.
Changing "stare" into "gaze" or "from" into "by" doesn't justify posting a "whole new script" and the heavily changed passages, I don't agree on.
I also have a few objection on the original translation by Tobiast88.

To begin, you have the "また" of the beginning. Basically, Nanjo is observing the same thing happened the last time he examined Kinzo (and has probably always been happening): he tells Kinzo to stop drinking and Kinzo keeps drinking. "Mata" isn't a reproach, "not again"; it means "I'm going to repeat, again, what I've said before".

Then, the "書斎と呼ぶにはとても広い部屋". The fact that the room is "vast for a study" is subtle in japanese. The fact that it's "too vast" is an extrapolation.

Then: "使用人のように見えた" = someone who looks like a manservant. No mention is made of the way he is dressed, the fact that he looks like a manservant could be induced by his attitude as well.

Then: "肌蹴させていた男" why translate otoko as gentleman, out of the blue ? Using otoko so bluntly really doesn't give a charming, gentleman-like vibe.

Then: 薬の意味もなくなってしまう: the 'kusuri' echoes to the first mention above (the medicine is working) and it is my opinion that the word medicine needs to appear twice for the echo-effect to work. I really think this should be "薬の意味 - the meaning of the medicine".

Then: 見比べた means to compare, to look at one and then the other. Genji is looking once at Kinzo, once at Nanjo and then takes his decision to serve the liquor. There's no mention of "careful".

Then: …心も、そして魂も溶かしてしまうような、毒のある甘い匂いは、
主人の愛して止まないその毒々しい緑色の酒の匂いだったのだ。
The use of the word "匂い" twice in a sentence isn't just because Ryukichi07 is too lazy to find another way of saying it. It is a repetition, an echo used on purpose and shouldn't be extrapolated in "emanate", but used twice.

Then: 結局はグラスを煽る金蔵を見ながら言う means "while watching (...), he finally says ..." It introduces the next sentence; so a colon is justfied here.

Then: 死にはせん is a bit like "it's not like I'm going to die (just from that)". It should definitely be translated that way. There is no mention of "might".

Then: このチェスで例えましょう I would translate this as "Let us illustrate this with this chess game.

I suggest that the Futagotachi's version be removed from the page, since its modifications are minimal.
I'd also like to add that if someone took MY translation of something, changed a few words (badly) and then posted it as their own, I would be quite angry and justifiably so. --[[User:Niemand|Niemand]] 07:21, 22 March 2008 (PDT)

This is actually a rampant problem with several translators on the same text or so. I don't exactly believe the changes were done for the hell of it, considering what they actually have done for the onikakushi project.
That is to say, that beta script was given to show if some tweeks were necessary or whatnot (not only for personal preferences sake, but also for space issue I believe).

I'm hardly on position to argue whichever is the best, hence why I submitted it below it, in case it was good or not. It would be better if all of you can discuss more in depth about the subtility or so. It will be troublesome, that is a given, though it would be quite preferable to see everyone's respective opinion, such like how Niemand did with the explanations.

For the moment, we will stick with the current translation (not the beta script submitted), but please feel free to debate more extensively or edit it completely. [[User:Klashikari|Klashikari]] 06:23, 23 March 2008 (PDT)

According to Niemand's comments, I'm changing a few words. But I have to agree with her: some of the changes I noticed on the Futagotachi version seemed to be just lexical, or interpretational; different translators will use different words, but the meaning stays intact (most of the time).--[[User:Tobiast88|Tobiast88]] 07:33, 23 March 2008 (PDT)

Er... sorry about changing the translation too much. I did know, while I was editing the script, that I was changing the text into something that didn't match the original Japanese as literally as the original translation. I guess I'm just too used to adapting Shion's translations for Higurashi into English that "flows" better when read, or sounds more like natural English writing. I forgot that that's not was being asked of me for this project.

I'm not complaining; it would certainly take less time for me to just do the insertion of the text as it is (with maybe a bit of editing for space considerations), so I can devote more time to Higurashi. Just be sure to edit the chapters in the wiki for typos and grammar beforehand.
--[[User:Sonozaki Futagotachi|Sonozaki Futagotachi]] 10:45, 23 March 2008 (PDT)

Talk:Umineko Volume 1: Chapter 0

2008-03-13T00:47:36Z

Sonozaki Futagotachi:

Talk:Umineko no Naku Koro ni

2008-03-06T09:10:40Z

Sonozaki Futagotachi:

Hey, chendo here from mirror moon. It sounds you guys need an insertion tool more than an ONScripter programmer (since it's an emulator, hence should work fine as a drop in replacement). And judging by how the scripts are, you guys didn't think about insertion (like we did with Tsukihime >_>).

Fortunately, I think the inserter I made for Tsukihime will work with your scripts, assuming that's what you're looking for. Contact me on #mirrormoon on irc.irchighway.net
:To be quite honest, I'm completely clueless about that matter, and I have hard time to see the difference among ONscripter encoding or insertion XD. Your help is very welcome, I just hope Sterling01 will notice this (that said, good call to have posted on the forum of Baka tsuki). If anything, I will try to catch you up in the MM irc channel. Thanks again :) [[User:Klashikari|Klashikari]] 10:07, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Hi, Mion of Sonozaki Futago-tachi here.

Insertion tool? Sounds useful, though for our Higurashi stuff Shion & I are just doing the translation/editing within the script itself, and leaving the original Japanese (commented out). Just though I'd say, I did turn down the text insertion job when Sterling01 contacted me, since there seemed to be coding problems in Umineko (as in things that made Onscripter unhappy.) I still don't think that text insertion is the best use of my time, but I'd be happy to help sort out the coding bugs and see where Onscripter might need to be updated to handle new Nscripter features. (As in, I'm fine with being the Onscripter coder, literally.) Higurashi is still my first priority, though.
--[[User:206.53.26.161|206.53.26.161]] 21:33, 9 February 2008 (PST)

== Enerccio desu~ ==

So here all of you ended. Hmm, sorry, for the website (www.rokkenjima.com), it's down because misuzu hosting is down too (look at visualnews main page).

For the onscripter thing, there will be need to do hard editing of the onscripter source code, since a lot of function that are used in the umineko 1 (and even more in umineko 2) - image rotating, eyecatchers, watch etc... are only parts of nscripter engine, not onscripter too.

So it would either need to:
a) remove those functions - ie editing the game and removing them, which is definitely not a good way
b) make all functions with image editing - another not a good way to do, since that would require a lot of images and patch will be large
c) edit source code of onscripter to add those functions - a way to go, but that would require someone with high knowledge of sdl and c++
d) hack ncripter to show english text - another way to go but that will require good hacker.

I still have finished edited video for umineko (the one in my youtube account, so if you want it, I can upload it somewhere, if you don't already have it)

Anyway good luck with the rest of series, I am very busy at the moment, so therefore I can't help much anymore. --[[User:Enerccio|Enerccio]] 12:15, 4 March 2008 (PST)

== Onscripter updates ==

Ah, but I have edited onscripter to handle some of the new Nscripter image commands; it will show the running clocks now. The fixed code is in Haeleth's onscripter trunk. In the future I'll be looking into emulating the other image effects (currently provided via dlls.) --[[User:Sonozaki Futagotachi|Sonozaki Futagotachi]] 01:10, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Talk:Umineko no Naku Koro ni

2008-03-06T09:09:05Z

Sonozaki Futagotachi: Onscripter updates