Meeting:April232016

April 23, 2014 - Baka-Tsuki Town Hall

The General Meeting will hold place in two sessions:

• Session 1: (4/23) Saturday 14:00 Greenwich Mean Time (UTC/GMT).
• Session 2: (4/24) Sunday 02:00 Greenwich Mean Time (UTC/GMT).

The discussion of the following topics will be held on the #baka-tsuki IRC channel, located at the Rizon Chat Network.

Using THIS LINK, you'll be redirected to the Rizon Chat, where you'll have to choose a name before connecting to the channel.

Meeting Summaries:

• Quick link to minutes (summary) of Saturday Session: [-pending-]
• Quick link to minutes (summary) of Sunday Session: [-pending-]

Meeting Full Transcripts:

• Quick link to transcript of Saturday Session: Saturday Session
• Quick link to transcript of Sunday Session: [-pending-]

Link to the 2014 meeting: Meeting:March302014

Topics

This google doc contain's Cloudii's present opinions, which will be used as a starting point for discussion.

Election Board Meeting

• Revisit and determine details on the eligibility of candidates and voters
• Settle the implementation specifics of the elections beginning on May 1st, 2016

Lower Hierarchy Restructuring

• Determine how many alt lang supervisors we need, senior editors, senior translators, etc.
• Allow wiki members to submit an application for positions of power during the election period
• Revisit how we can keep the sidebar up to date -- consider creating a dedicated position?

Charter of Guidance Simplification

• Aim to cut down the total length and complexity of the rules
• Revisit rules -- determine if they were being observed or ineffectual. Eliminate or modify rules that are inefficient.

Q&A on the Baka-Tsuki Server Move

• Answer questions and concerns from members

(pending -- if you have anything that you want to address, feel free to add it here.)

Complete Log of the Meeting

Complete Log of the Saturday Session

[...] [09:58am] Cloudii: If you’re here for the meeting, check out this wiki page (and the google doc) https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [09:58am] Kira0802: Aren't we like 15:00 UTC now? [09:59am] Joay: closer to 1400 ... [09:59am] Kira0802: ... [09:59am] Altux: night 22.00 here [09:59am] Kira0802: I thought I was 45 minutes late... [09:59am] Teh_ping: .... [09:59am] Cloudii: Alrightie, let’s get started [09:59am] Teh_ping: Anyway, saw the agenda beforehand [09:59am] Kira0802: I blame daylight saving [09:59am] Kira0802: Go ahead [09:59am] Cloudii: Let’s start with election rules [10:00am] kiryuu joined the chat room. [10:00am] Cloudii: Any opinion on the eligibility of candidates [10:00am] Cloudii: for the elections that start on May 1st [10:00am] Kira0802: ? [10:00am] Joay: just two questions [10:00am] Cloudii: Any Wiki user that fulfills any one of the following criteria is eligible: [10:00am] Cloudii: Wiki user is in either the translator, editor, or supervisor usergroups [10:00am] Cloudii: Wiki user has made 500 or more contributions to Baka-Tsuki and has been a registered member for six months or greater [10:00am] Cloudii: (it’s in the google doc linked on the wiki page https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016) [10:00am] Joay: one, you have a list of eligible candidates and voters? [10:01am] Joay: two, what is the minimum voter turnout? [10:01am] Altux: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CC0g4XjcLEa4jhYws6JJYJFqF9InB-h8ZW1P0r6oXyQ/edit# [10:01am] Cloudii: it’s a self-nomination process, so candidate eligbility would be determined when they nominate themselves [10:01am] Cloudii: voter eligibility is any existing editor translator (which means they already have access to the admin forums) [10:02am] Altux: what is the >500 contribution? [10:02am] Cloudii: or someone on the wiki who requests access [10:02am] Kira0802: I believe it's 500 wiki edits [10:02am] Cloudii: @Altux you can look up the number of contributions you have, like this https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Altux [10:02am] Kira0802: Altux: as in 500 times you changed the wiki [10:03am] Teh_ping: It's our BakaTsuki500 [10:03am] Cloudii: minimum voter turnout is actually none, we don’t have much freedom here ;-; [10:03am] Cloudii: I’m not even sure what our population is [10:03am] Teh_ping: voting? [10:03am] Teh_ping: we talking about voting? [10:03am] hayashi: I'm here [10:04am] Cloudii: Any questions or objections to the candidate and voter eligbility? [10:04am] AliceNeo joined the chat room. [10:04am] Joay: i'm worried about the definition of wiki change ... [10:04am] Teh_ping: well, translator is obvious [10:05am] Kira0802: I think it's short for "non-official editors" [10:05am] Teh_ping: but for editors, how much wiki change is debatable [10:05am] Cloudii: yep [10:05am] Teh_ping: Image uploaders can count too, I guess [10:05am] Joay: like how big would be a change for it to count kind of question ... [10:05am] Cloudii: do people have a preferable definition? [10:05am] Kira0802: I don't have one [10:05am] Cloudii: *preferable alternative definition [10:05am] Teh_ping: obviously, we can't go about checking each editor's works one by one [10:05am] Kira0802: The point is to include regulars, is it not? [10:06am] Teh_ping: technically yeah [10:06am] hayashi: sorry Cloudii [10:06am] Cloudii: @Kira0802 yes, the point is to include editors who have made significant contributions/changes to the wiki [10:06am] Joay: talk pages are out of the question, right? [10:06am] hayashi: what was the agenda again? [10:06am] Teh_ping: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [10:06am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [10:06am] Teh_ping: jinx [10:06am] Cloudii: [10:06am] Teh_ping: talk pages are out [10:06am] Teh_ping: ...and we need to filter them [10:06am] observer joined the chat room. [10:07am] Altux: more complete agenda : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CC0g4XjcLEa4jhYws6JJYJFqF9InB-h8ZW1P0r6oXyQ/edit# [10:07am] Teh_ping: Okay cloud, can we change it up a little? [10:07am] Cloudii: yep~ [10:07am] Teh_ping: for eligible translator [10:07am] Cloudii: what do you have on mind? [10:07am] Teh_ping: they must have at least 100kb worth of contribution to count [10:07am] XDDD joined the chat room. [10:07am] Teh_ping: ssry, 50 [10:07am] Joay: much better, IMO ... [10:07am] Teh_ping: 100kb is too much [10:08am] Kira0802: If your point was to specifically target editors, I'd rather go per number of chapters covered [10:08am] Cloudii: 50kb is reasonable that’s like a chapter or so [10:08am] Teh_ping: joay, 1kb of text is about 1.6k words, right? [10:08am] Kira0802: There's no point in making them change what they think do not need to be touched [10:08am] hayashi: ah ok [10:08am] AliceNeo left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:08am] hayashi: so we're voting on council stuff [10:08am] Kira0802: 50kb is pretty much a short chapter [10:08am] Teh_ping: so, 500kb? [10:08am] Cloudii: 50kb is fine imo [10:08am] aielarbalest joined the chat room. [10:09am] Cloudii: I think it shouldn’t be too hard for translators to become eligble [10:09am] Kira0802: Why not just say "one chapter" [10:09am] Joay: 1kb? that'll be about 4 sentences worth [10:09am] Teh_ping: ...realizes I've been off BT translating for so long [10:09am] Cloudii: if anything I think the elgibility should be easier for translators than editors, but that’s just my opinion [10:09am] Kira0802: Defining by kb is something unnecessarily technical [10:10am] Teh_ping: but I'm using my own example for this [10:10am] Cloudii: Okay translator definition is someone who has translated more than one chapter [10:10am] Teh_ping: one chapter, how long? [10:10am] Joay: tough to say [10:10am] Kira0802: Doesn't really matter [10:10am] Cloudii: I think it’s easier to keep things simple ;-; [10:10am] Kira0802: Most chapters are like 50kb+ [10:10am] Teh_ping: prologue, epilogues and afterword shouldn't count here [10:11am] Cloudii: quick vote: [10:11am] Cloudii: single chapter definition [10:11am] Cloudii: b) prologue epi definition (ping's) [10:11am] Joay: illustration annotations == prologue? background info == prologue? [10:11am] Cloudii: c) no definition on translators [10:12am] Cloudii: I don’t think illustrations or background info counts as a chapter [10:12am] Kira0802: I'm going to stick with our same definition for the translator user group [10:12am] Teh_ping: anything before what is called 'chapter 1' in text, I guess [10:12am] Cloudii: I’m with Kira0802 actually ;-; [10:12am] Teh_ping: what was the definition anyway? [10:12am] Kira0802: Which is one chapter [10:12am] Cloudii: the translator usergroup is literally determined by wiki supervisors [10:12am] Cloudii: if it looks like someone is a translator they’re a translator [10:12am] Cloudii: it’s easy to tell ;-; [10:13am] Teh_ping: but we don't have many supervisors T.T [10:13am] Kira0802: Kinda yeah. [10:13am] XDDD_ joined the chat room. [10:13am] Cloudii: we would have to give them permissions to access the forum admin board anyways [10:13am] XDDD left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:13am] Cloudii: In either case, I think it’s excessive to have an elaborate kb definition for translators [10:14am] Kira0802: There are supervisors, though the role is merely to accept people in the user group so far [10:14am] Teh_ping: ...actually, cloud, that definition was more for voting eligibility [10:15am] Cloudii: I’m writing directly into the doc for now [10:15am] Cloudii: any objections from here? [10:15am] Cloudii: I’ve put it in blue so the later session can have separate input too [10:15am] Kira0802: I see no problem with that. [10:16am] Cloudii: If we’re good here let’s move on? [10:16am] Joay: ok [10:16am] Cthaeh: In the final written guidelines, I'd have whatever metric we come up be listed as a guideline, and [10:16am] Cthaeh: include a note that editors with significant contributions that fall short numerically can still request access and be approved at supervisor discretion [10:16am] Cthaeh: quality of edits (or number of bytes changed) is highly variable depending [10:16am] Cloudii: I’m with Cthaeh [10:16am] Cthaeh: current definitions are fine by me [10:16am] Teh_ping: editor is the harder thing to define though [10:16am] Kira0802: Just go with number of chapters covered [10:16am] Cloudii: Anyhow, next item, nomination period for elections [10:16am] Teh_ping: gotcha [10:17am] Cloudii: Is it fine to have it on the wiki? [10:17am] Teh_ping: ...normally we go with forums [10:17am] Teh_ping: but with it easily spammed [10:17am] Cloudii: yeah, but I think the wiki is more… open [10:17am] Altux: why not the blog? [10:17am] Teh_ping: agreed [10:17am] Teh_ping: nobody uses the blog [10:17am] Cloudii: and I’d like to get in the habit of doing more things on the wiki [10:17am] Altux: facebook? [10:17am] Kira0802: Doesn't that mean you have to publicly vote? [10:18am] Cloudii: a lot of wiki users don’t use the forums (or facebook) [10:18am] Teh_ping: that's just chaos [10:18am] Cloudii: no, the voting is still happening on the forums [10:18am] Cloudii: but I’d like to have the nominations on the wiki [10:18am] Teh_ping: ah, okay [10:18am] Cloudii: any questions? [10:18am] Kira0802: I'm uncomfortable with public voting [10:18am] Teh_ping: add 'voting will be done on the forums' after the 'they like to the nomination page', cloud [10:18am] Cloudii: We’re not having public voting [10:19am] Teh_ping: we're just throwing names [10:19am] Kira0802: How do you set secret voting in the wiki? [10:19am] Teh_ping: on the admin forum? [10:19am] Cloudii: It’s in the administration forum board [10:19am] Cloudii: it’s our way of controlling it so only eligible voters can vote [10:19am] Cthaeh: nominations on wiki is fine [10:20am] Cloudii: If we’re good on this topic can we move on? [10:20am] Kira0802: Yeah [10:20am] Teh_ping: yep [10:20am] Cloudii: (if you have questions you’d like for the candidates, just make them and I’ll add them to the list) [10:20am] Cloudii: Election rules [10:20am] Cloudii: the key thing I wanted to add was no campaigning on the wiki [10:21am] Cloudii: other rules are more or less obvious [10:21am] Teh_ping: I'm not worried about the candidates campaigning [10:21am] Teh_ping: I'm more worried about people pushing for candidates campaigning [10:21am] Cloudii: I’d just like to make it a rule just in case… [10:21am] Kira0802: You can add a candidate sub in the admin group [10:22am] Cloudii: what do you mean Kira0802? [10:22am] Cthaeh: I'm worried about getting less than 5 nominees... [10:22am] Cloudii: haha Cthaeh [10:22am] Kira0802: Each topic is about one's candidature within a subsection of the admin board [10:22am] Teh_ping: I'm expecting 2... [10:22am] Cloudii: can we ammend the constitution right now so that if we have less than 5 nominees, the rest of the board can be appointed? [10:23am] Kira0802: Wait [10:23am] Kira0802: Why is there the need for 5 nominees when only 1 place is vacant [10:23am] Cthaeh: so Cthaeh can run away [10:23am] Teh_ping: are we reshuffling the board, or something? [10:23am] Cloudii: Some people may not want to run again [10:23am] • Teh_ping looks away [10:24am] Cloudii: it’s called democracy~ if people think you did bad then may not get elected again~ [10:24am] Cloudii: in either case, any additions to the election rules? [10:24am] Cloudii: if not, moving on [10:24am] Joay: 5 posts up for grabs in a general election ... [10:24am] Kira0802: I totally forgot it's been a whole year [10:24am] Kira0802: No [10:24am] Kira0802: Go on [10:24am] Teh_ping: sometimes it's not about doing bad, but rather who's forced to take up the position [10:25am] Cloudii: Alrightie, uh… this is something I should have done earlier, but we need to figure out which supervisors are still active/inactive [10:25am] Cloudii: What is a good number of supervisors to have overall? [10:25am] Cloudii: (non-alternative languages, that is) [10:25am] Teh_ping: 7 [10:25am] hayashi: 7 is quite a lot ping [10:25am] Cloudii: throw a number everyone~ [10:25am] Cthaeh: 15 [10:25am] Joay: one [10:25am] Cloudii: well, I actually think it’s nicer to have more [10:26am] Kira0802: 2-3 per language [10:26am] Teh_ping: right now, we have 147 main projects [10:26am] Cloudii: more supervisors = more people to edit the main page [10:26am] Teh_ping: some obviously way bigger than others [10:26am] hayashi: how many of those 147 are active though [10:26am] Teh_ping: and so many are hosted too [10:27am] Cloudii: Currently I’m leaning for like 2 per non-English language, and like 7 english [10:27am] Kira0802: Do you have a list of number of projects per language? [10:27am] Cloudii: 7-10 maybe english [10:27am] Joay: can we check the current supervisors' edit history? [10:27am] Cloudii: yep [10:27am] Kira0802: Yes. [10:27am] foxhunt_mobile joined the chat room. [10:28am] Cthaeh: Brazilian Portuguese 34-39 Czech 6 Filipino 6 French ~67 (Vaelis, Lery, Kira0802) German 16 (Daklor) Greek 4 Indonesian 46+ (Arczyx, Tony Yon) Italian 10 Lithuanian 6 Polish ~30 Russian 45+ (Sharkrahs) Spanish 45 (FNX, RedGlassesGirl(?)) Turkish 5 Vietnamese 30 [10:28am] Cloudii: so the current bid is 10 general supervisors? [10:28am] Cloudii: up or down? [10:28am] Cthaeh: formatting got messed up, but that's what it was a year ago [10:28am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'm thinking it'll be amazing if we can have more supervisors than the number of active chatters on this IRC [10:28am] AndChat-74900 joined the chat room. [10:28am] foxhunt_mobile left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:29am] Cloudii: In either case, what I was imagining was that there would be a supervisor application form [10:29am] Cloudii: would put this up concurently with elections [10:29am] Joay: one supervisor for 10 projects maybe? [10:29am] Cloudii: a supervisor wanna-be would fill out the form if they were interested [10:29am] Cloudii: Executive Council would look over later [10:29am] Cthaeh: we have 13 listed currently [10:29am] FoxhuntM left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:29am] Cloudii: a very easy~ form [10:29am] Cthaeh: do you mean 10 active? [10:29am] Cloudii: Cthaeh brings up a good point [10:29am] antihero joined the chat room. [10:29am] Cloudii: that means we can’t have less than 13 [10:29am] Kira0802: One per 10 project is good. [10:29am] Cloudii: unless we shrank for sure [10:29am] Teh_ping: sighs [10:30am] Cloudii: 1 supervisor or 10 projects [10:30am] Cloudii: I’m good with that [10:30am] Cloudii: *per [10:30am] Teh_ping: so, what are our popular projects? [10:30am] Kira0802: Well like 90% of the novels got nuked [10:30am] Teh_ping: I'm guessing one supervisor per active popular project [10:30am] Cloudii: I think active is good enough [10:30am] Kira0802: That's hard to define, ping [10:30am] Kira0802: And a hassle to manage [10:31am] Cloudii: wait, actually, that would bring us to less than 13 supervisors [10:31am] Teh_ping: one person manages zzhk's works, one person manages js06.exe works [10:31am] Kira0802: Are we talking about English only? [10:31am] Teh_ping: ...that's torture [10:31am] Cloudii: english only [10:31am] Cloudii: I think we’re in the present situation of the more people, the better [10:32am] antihero left the chat room. [10:32am] Cloudii: I’m thinking 1 supervisor per 10 full projects [10:32am] Cloudii: so 14.6 supervisors [10:32am] Cloudii: is the cap on general english supervisors [10:32am] Cloudii: realistically there will be less though [10:32am] Kira0802: How about 7 projects, one supervisor? [10:33am] Teh_ping: realistically, we have only 20 active projects or so [10:33am] AndChat-74900 left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:33am] Cloudii: (shhh I’m trying to pull more people into running BT) [10:33am] Cloudii: (ranks are like… the carrot...) [10:33am] Teh_ping: tbh, half of the projects are hosted, so they're their own admins, I guess [10:33am] Teh_ping: and supervisors [10:33am] Kira0802: We can just bundle inactive projects with the active ones when someone takes a supervising job [10:33am] Cloudii: Teh Ping does have a point [10:33am] Cloudii: well, we’re not dividing up projects though [10:34am] Cloudii: supervisors are there to hopefull do Cthaeh’s job [10:34am] Cthaeh: I don't personally think we need a ceiling, if you get qualified people interested, then sure they can be supervisors [10:34am] Teh_ping: just leave the inactive ones for the time being [10:34am] Cloudii: Cthaeh has a good point too...... [10:34am] Cthaeh: I don't think we'd run into issues of too many at the moment [10:34am] Kira0802: Hosted projects shouldn't mean they are their own supervisor though [10:34am] Teh_ping: we're beggars at this point, not choosers [10:34am] Cloudii: actually let’s just scrap all this about a cap [10:34am] Cloudii: [10:34am] Teh_ping: sighs [10:35am] Cloudii: I guess our priority is to find at least 1 per alternative language [10:35am] Joay: teaser projects == inactive project? [10:35am] Teh_ping: anyway, just get as many as we can [10:35am] Cloudii: no Joay [10:35am] Cloudii: but it was an approximation... [10:35am] Cloudii: the supervisors aren’t assigned to projects anyway [10:35am] Kira0802: I'm more interested in defining that the hell is a supervisor supposed to do [10:35am] Cloudii: their role is basically to patrol the wiki [10:35am] Cloudii: do Cthaeh’s job [10:35am] Cloudii: supervisor = BT moderator (on the wiki) [10:36am] Cloudii: ..the definition has changed over the years... [10:36am] Cthaeh: I don't do anything these days... so I'd hope for a little better [10:36am] Teh_ping: anyway cloud, let's just see what we can get first [10:36am] Cloudii: good, let’s move on [10:36am] Cloudii: Should we add more positions that people can apply to? [10:37am] Cloudii: e.g. more people to take himel’s job [10:37am] Kira0802: What else is there [10:37am] Cloudii: or blog manager [10:37am] Teh_ping: only one I can think of is image cleaner [10:37am] Cloudii: supervisor of audio projects… [10:37am] Teh_ping: how's the audio project going anyway? [10:37am] Cloudii: It died when Oni retired [10:37am] Kira0802: I want Himel to choose his people by himself [10:37am] Teh_ping: sigh [10:38am] Cloudii: well I guess we can inform Himel that then [10:38am] Kira0802: Rather than pushing something to him [10:38am] Cloudii: but the others? [10:38am] Kira0802: What's left? [10:38am] Cloudii: I think it might be nice to have a supervisor for OLNs and WNs [10:38am] hayashi: probably the election [10:38am] hayashi: hopefully we will have a trump candidate [10:38am] Teh_ping: that can be for a general supervisor to handle, I guess [10:38am] hayashi: to liven up the proceedings [10:38am] • Teh_ping chops Hayashi down [10:38am] Joay: *shudder* [10:39am] Cloudii: if the responsibilit y isn’t assigned, it’s never going to be done [10:39am] Cthaeh: *whistles* [10:39am] Teh_ping: forests are meant to be cleared [10:39am] Teh_ping: anyway, back on point [10:39am] Cloudii: in either case, in the WN policy last year, the point was that somebody would review WN to see if they’re “good enough” eligible to be presented to the Executive council [10:39am] meganeshounen joined the chat room. [10:39am] Cloudii: same with OLNs [10:39am] Cloudii: (that “somebody” never got determined xD) [10:40am] Kira0802: Just let the supervisor board do that work [10:40am] Kira0802: Instead of having a single one do it [10:40am] Teh_ping: WN will need more than 1 supervisor, I think [10:40am] Cloudii: the supervisors are lazy, everyone knows that~ [10:40am] Kira0802: WN influx stopped [10:40am] Teh_ping: so adding more lazy bums to lazy bums, yeah that'll work [10:40am] Cloudii: we actually don’t get very many people interested in hosting their WN anymore [10:40am] Teh_ping: yeah, donations and such [10:40am] Cloudii: I think one will suffice [10:41am] Cloudii: imo the best person to do it is someone interested in doing it [10:41am] Cloudii: like if they like WNs or if they like OLNs [10:41am] Flutz joined the chat room. [10:41am] Cloudii: so should we open these “extra” positions? [10:41am] Kira0802: Do we have someone like that [10:42am] Joay: must be a wattpad fan if they're into WN or OLNs ... [10:42am] Cloudii: have someone like what? [10:42am] Cthaeh: sure, if you want to organize the recruiting for it [10:42am] Joay: just guessing ... [10:42am] Kira0802: Interested in all OLNs and who's active [10:42am] Cloudii: haha Cthaeh [10:42am] Kira0802: But open them, there's nothing to lose here anyway [10:42am] Cloudii: are we good here or shall we move on? [10:42am] Kira0802: Except for WNs [10:43am] Kira0802: Yeah, we're good [10:43am] Teh_ping: we good [10:43am] Cloudii: Next item is make rules more concise…. this is more of a personal goal really [10:43am] Cloudii: but there’s a lot of stuff in the rules like “inform the administration help page” that isn’t really meaningful… [10:43am] Teh_ping: and more effective [10:43am] Cloudii: any opinions? [10:43am] Kira0802: Someone link me the rules [10:44am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:Rules [10:44am] Teh_ping: well, times have changed [10:44am] Cloudii: the external contributor guidelines are a mess [10:44am] Teh_ping: but a common theme amongst readers is tl:dr [10:44am] Cloudii: new project startup guidelines are too long [10:44am] Cloudii: and a pain [10:44am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:New_Project_Startup_Guidelines [10:44am] Victorrama joined the chat room. [10:44am] Kira0802: Someone with an IQ of 50 can understand them though [10:44am] Victorrama: Hola [10:44am] Cthaeh: shorter rules would probably be good, changing that is more of a volunteer thing than a delegate thing though [10:44am] Kira0802: They are long but not incomprehensible [10:45am] Teh_ping: ...cloud, you created that, didn't you? [10:45am] Cloudii: yep [10:45am] Teh_ping: sighz [10:45am] Cloudii: everything is my fault [10:45am] erebea_v2 joined the chat room. [10:45am] Cloudii: (but secretly it’s all Kira’s fault) [10:45am] Teh_ping: ...except for the project abandonment [10:45am] Kira0802: Hi Vic [10:45am] Teh_ping: now that's my fault [10:45am] Teh_ping is now known as Teh_ping. [10:45am] Cloudii: project abandonment is sensitive so I won’t touch that [10:45am] Cloudii: I really just want to cut down on the project startup rules [10:45am] Kira0802: I can volunteer to go over them [10:45am] Cloudii: and external contributor guidelines [10:45am] Teh_ping: I want to revise the abandonment one [10:46am] Cloudii: Teh_ping go on? [10:46am] Cloudii: lol Ping I thought you were a precious random person [10:46am] Teh_ping: for the abandonment policy, the process is still kind of vague to me [10:46am] Teh_ping: it's my next project on BT [10:46am] Teh_ping: there's a reason for that [10:47am] Cloudii: Ping, run for executive council and then work with the exec council to change it [10:47am] Teh_ping: don't wanna [10:47am] Cloudii: I feel like this is too sensitive of an area for someone to do unilaterally [10:47am] SoraSky joined the chat room. [10:47am] Cloudii: you can also edit it yourself and present it to the executive council [10:47am] Teh_ping is now known as Teh. [10:47am] Cloudii: draft up a new version and present it [10:47am] Cloudii: that works too [10:47am] Kira0802: I can just add a tl;dr in the top of new project guidelines [10:48am] Teh is now known as Teh_ping. [10:48am] Cloudii: So I guess Kira0802 and me will work on simplifying the new project and external contributor guidelines [10:48am] Cloudii: Teh Ping will work on the abandonment [10:48am] Cloudii: but draft it up in the talk page, not on the actual page [10:48am] Victorrama: Any short summary? I came in kinda late [10:48am] Teh_ping: need me to vet through the guidelines? [10:48am] Cloudii: like copy paste everything and post your new version on the talk page [10:48am] Kira0802: I want to redefine the whole external guidelines though [10:49am] Cloudii: then PM the executive council [10:49am] Cloudii: okay Kira0802 [10:49am] Kira0802: Nothing much Vic [10:49am] Cloudii: Just whatever you guys do, don’t edit it directly ;-; [10:49am] Teh_ping: on the talk page please [10:49am] Cloudii: Do it on the talk page or somewhere else first please [10:49am] LeinadDan joined the chat room. [10:49am] Kira0802: Cloud, I'll just post a draft proposal in the admin forum [10:49am] Cloudii: That works too [10:49am] Cloudii: Are we good? Moving on? [10:49am] Teh_ping: yep [10:49am] Kira0802: Go ahead [10:50am] Cloudii: @Victorroma the transcript will be posted [10:50am] Cloudii: Any outstanding things that need to be updated on the main page? [10:50am] Cloudii: lol Ping is correcting my spelling [10:50am] Cloudii: If not, then there’s just the Q&A on the server move [10:50am] Victorrama: Okay [10:50am] Cloudii: or Q&A on anything really [10:51am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'm a little curious on something [10:51am] Kira0802: Can someone please let people with supervisor rights to edit the sidebar? [10:51am] Cloudii: can you edit the sidebar Kira0802? [10:51am] Teh_ping: is the current/upcoming anime section really up-to-date? [10:51am] Teh_ping: so far, it's for admin only [10:51am] Kira0802: I don't recall being able to do so [10:51am] Cloudii: can you try right now [10:51am] Cloudii: ? [10:52am] Kira0802: <-on my phone [10:52am] Cloudii: the last I checked, it’s been changed [10:52am] Teh_ping: by zzhk, I believe? [10:52am] Teh_ping: yep [10:52am] Cthaeh: random topic that KLS asked me to bring up in his absence: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=270906#p270906 [10:52am] Cthaeh: http://kltranslate.herokuapp.com/ [10:53am] Cthaeh: He wanted to check to make sure that wouldn't be considered MTL [10:53am] Cloudii: Is there any non administrator here that is a supervisor? [10:53am] Cloudii: I’ll need to read it in a bit [10:53am] Cloudii: Victorrama are you here? [10:53am] Cthaeh: it doesn't look like that would be [10:53am] Victorrama: Yes [10:53am] Cloudii: can you try editting the sidebar? [10:53am] Cthaeh: you feed it JP, and it lists the dictionary definitions of everything [10:53am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar [10:53am] Teh_ping: only for sysop [10:54am] Teh_ping: ‎[edit=sysop] (indefinite)‎[move=sysop] [10:54am] Victorrama: Nope [10:54am] Victorrama: I can't [10:54am] Cloudii: [10:54am] Cloudii: I want more people to have sidebar editing rights.... [10:54am] puj joined the chat room. [10:55am] Cthaeh: for the main page, even if you don't want to change user rights, you can define a template that is supervisor editable for the sections that need to be change frequently [10:55am] Cthaeh: sidebar editing writes are linked to a lot of other pages too [10:55am] Cloudii: Victor can you change the main page? [10:55am] Victorrama: Which? [10:55am] Cloudii: we trained the include with the sidebar before but it didn’t work [10:55am] Cloudii: the Baka-Tsuki main page [10:56am] Victorrama: A sec [10:56am] Kira0802: I can [10:56am] Kira0802: I think [10:56am] Cthaeh: (it's a wiki infrastructure page or some such thing, so I think it needs to be changed in group rights definitions) [10:56am] Victorrama: Yes i can [10:57am] Cloudii: well… it’d be nice if supervisors could edit the sidebar in the future [10:57am] Teh_ping: it's admin only for now [10:57am] Cloudii: I guess we’ll have to ask Lery or Simon if they can figure something about it [10:57am] Teh_ping: which means zzhk is at admin level too [10:57am] Cloudii: yep [10:57am] Kira0802: But yeah, all this time I have never been able to add project to the sidebar and it pissed me off [10:57am] Teh_ping: ...either way, or I'll have to come back and do the sidebar edits [10:57am] Teh_ping: sighz [10:57am] Cloudii: About KLS’s thing... [10:57am] Cloudii: I’m biased [10:58am] Cloudii: I’m all for it really, because I really like active members ;-; [10:58am] sovyat left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:58am] Teh_ping: I like that idea too [10:58am] Joay: is that based on wwwjdic? [10:58am] Cloudii: it is very close to quasi-machine translation though ;-; [10:58am] Teh_ping: text glossing tool [10:58am] Teh_ping: so, pretty much yeah [10:58am] Victorrama: KLS..? [10:58am] Cloudii: KLSylph [10:58am] Kira0802: KLS' parser should be a tool, not a mean [10:58am] Teh_ping: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=270906#p270906 [10:59am] Teh_ping: I like the initiative, but it's as Kira0802 said [10:59am] Cloudii: well, I think we can allow it [10:59am] Cloudii: the rules still stands that we don’t allow MTLing [10:59am] XDDD_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:59am] Kira0802: There's no point in dismissing tools through which one could get help from, although the basic idea is that you don't TL the whole thing from a parser [10:59am] Teh_ping: but we can have the thing on the sidebar though [10:59am] Cloudii: so there’s this fuzzy gray area where the tools usage is still allowed [10:59am] Teh_ping: we still have BakaReader EX out there [10:59am] Cloudii: seems like we have a consensus [11:00am] Teh_ping: let's include it [11:00am] Cloudii: Oh and I’d like to link novelupdates.com on the main page too [11:00am] Cloudii: any other topics people would like to discuss? [11:00am] Cloudii: otherwise this session is just about done~ [11:00am] hyddty joined the chat room. [11:00am] Cthaeh: 1 coming [11:01am] Victorrama: That tool... [11:01am] Joay: novelupdates.com --> quick links ? [11:01am] Teh_ping: hey guys, if any of you are shy about raising something, just message any one of us [11:01am] Victorrama: I suppose we can treat it like jisho [11:01am] Kira0802: I think novelupdates and recent changes to the general scene should push BT to a more TL-focused group [11:01am] Cloudii: agreed Kira0802 [11:01am] Kira0802: As in [11:01am] Victorrama: How is BT relationship with mangaupdates? [11:01am] Cloudii: we don’t have one [11:02am] Cloudii: @victorrama [11:02am] Victorrama: I say tray it as same way then [11:02am] Teh_ping: what about novelupdates? [11:02am] Kira0802: Less stuff about "promoting novels" and more focus in projects [11:02am] Cloudii: it’s just a useful thing I’ve been using lately [11:02am] Cloudii: We have aho updates linked for instance ;-; [11:02am] TrippleD left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [11:02am] Teh_ping: well, it certainly ain't useful in informing me about which hellping projects are updated [11:02am] Cthaeh: I'll wait a moment for novel updates discussion [11:02am] Kira0802: Isn't aho updates the same as novelupdates? [11:03am] Cloudii: novelupdates is more like mangaupdates [11:03am] Victorrama: I say ignore it since we ignore mangaupdates...? And aho too [11:03am] BitterChu2 joined the chat room. [11:03am] Cloudii: Well, if it were up to me, I’d actually like to assign someone to do himel’s job on novelupdates or mangaupdates [11:03am] Teh_ping: ...which is himel's job [11:03am] Cloudii: himel only does it on facebook [11:04am] Kira0802: His is more a [11:04am] Teh_ping: basically, he'll be the 'promotion team leader' [11:04am] Cloudii: (and twitter) [11:04am] Kira0802: Promotion+update one [11:04am] Kira0802: Rather than just update [11:04am] Teh_ping: he also does some mangaupdates too, if I remember [11:04am] Kira0802: Just let him form his own team [11:04am] Cloudii: okeee [11:04am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'll prefer to have the readers promote what they like [11:04am] Cloudii: Cthaeh you were saying? [11:04am] Teh_ping: novel updates? [11:05am] Judith joined the chat room. [11:05am] Cthaeh: I've been mulling the idea of moving pdfs and such from forums to wiki, having a separate "PDF" page for each progect (ie Rokujouma:PDF). [11:05am] Cthaeh: One one hand, this would make it much easier to share and manage. On the other hand, making pdfs more widespread hurts my position on licensing a bit. [11:05am] Cthaeh: I do think moving it could be an opportunity to increase activity overall. It'd be a lot easier to find the pdf you're looking for (and delete the page once it's licensed), compared to having to search forum posts 1 by 1. [11:05am] Cthaeh: So I'm curious what people think of the tradeoffs there. [11:06am] Kira0802: Do that [11:06am] Cloudii: I favor this, so long as you find the people to implement the changes [11:06am] Victorrama: Who'd be responsible for making and checking it..? [11:06am] Cloudii: it’s a lot of work up front [11:06am] Victorrama: The PDFs.. [11:06am] Cthaeh: People make pdfs already [11:06am] Victorrama: Coz there will be lots of version poping [11:06am] Cloudii: do you want a separate subboard for PDFs? [11:06am] Kira0802: It lets the community check it too [11:06am] Cthaeh: they just share them in forum posts [11:06am] Victorrama: Dont we have the PDF thread in it? [11:07am] Kira0802: I think you can make them a section just above "Volume 1" and under "Registration" though [11:07am] Cloudii: My assumption is to update the forum rules so that users should not post PDF links in ordinary threads… only in the PDF subboard [11:07am] Cthaeh: Yeah, I'd open up a forum topic in the pdf subforum to see if the current people who make/share pdfs would want [11:07am] Cthaeh: I want a separate page for pdfs so it can be deleted cleanly on licensing [11:07am] Cloudii: I would say go for it Cthaeh [11:07am] Cloudii: I’ll separate the Appreciate and PDF subboards for you if you want? [11:07am] hayashi: I'm not keen on making pdfs more available [11:07am] Cloudii: *apreciation [11:08am] hayashi: it weakens our position on not enabling piracy [11:08am] Cthaeh: Also because I wanted to get Simon/Lery to disable google page caching and webarchive for those pages [11:08am] Cloudii: well, I see it more from a practical standpoint [11:08am] Cloudii: currently it takes a Cthaeh a lot of work to search through forum posts 1 by 1 for any PDFs [11:08am] Cloudii: this way we can put it in the rules: “No PDF links except in this subboard" [11:08am] Cthaeh: I'm also concerned on hayashi's point, is why I've been dragging my feet [11:08am] Teh_ping: gather them all [11:09am] Teh_ping: or not? [11:09am] Teh_ping: tbh, we're still grey in this area [11:09am] Kira0802: It's either going to be PDFs that people hunt for or PDFs that we can provide [11:09am] Victorrama: I vote for not [11:09am] Teh_ping: tbh, I think there will be others already providing the PDFs [11:09am] Kira0802: I'd rather have us providing them than a third party making ads money through linking them [11:10am] Victorrama: Agreed with hayashi [11:10am] Cloudii: Well, to me it’s a vote between status quo and Cthaeh’s proposal [11:10am] Teh_ping: ...it's a lose-lose situation how [11:10am] Teh_ping: huh* [11:10am] Cloudii: the status quo is that PDFs are linked randomly in the forum posts [11:10am] Cloudii: the alternative is to concentrate them all somewhere [11:11am] watuo joined the chat room. [11:11am] Kira0802: I vote for concentrate [11:11am] Cloudii: Cthaeh, if it makes you feel better, we can delay this for the next executive council board [11:11am] Cloudii: the present executive council here is mostly in favor of concentrating as far as I can tell [11:12am] Cthaeh: Sure, I'm personally going to be doing work on it before then [11:12am] Cloudii: I’m also in favor of concentrating [11:12am] Cloudii: if only for logistical reasons [11:12am] Cloudii: Any other topics? [11:13am] watuo: is this a chat to see what series should be translated? [11:13am] Cloudii: nope [11:13am] Cthaeh: no [11:13am] Kira0802: Oh right [11:13am] Teh_ping: nope [11:13am] Kira0802: Questions about servers; [11:13am] Teh_ping: let's repeat this again, no series will be reinstated despite the move [11:13am] Joay: that pdf link relocation apply to existing links? [11:13am] Kira0802: What does that mean for Kadokawa DCMAs? [11:13am] Cloudii: yes Teh_ping [11:14am] Cloudii: we already received the DMCAs so those series are not being reinstated [11:14am] Teh_ping: all DMCAed series will not be reinstated, AT ALL [11:14am] hyddty_ joined the chat room. [11:14am] Kira0802: And what does Lery's server location provide as an advantage? [11:14am] Cloudii: yes, that was what the executive council agreed on last month [11:14am] Teh_ping: moving servers is mostly to stop the bleeding, actually [11:14am] Cthaeh: Lery's stays online [11:14am] Cloudii: It’s more like we don’t have an alternative; TLG is dropping the ball [11:14am] Cloudii: [11:14am] Cloudii: that’s something he already decided [11:15am] Joay: just curious, from what Kadokawa branch did the DMCA come from ... [11:15am] hyddty left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [11:15am] Cloudii: I have no idea. It’s somewhere in the forums [11:15am] Cloudii: It was sent by a proxy of Kadokawa I think, actually [11:15am] observer left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [11:16am] Cloudii: Anything else? last calls [11:16am] zxzxzx: in regards to future DMCAs, what will happen? [11:16am] Cloudii: The same as always [11:16am] Cloudii: if we get a DMCA, the series gets removed [11:16am] Kira0802: What about alternative languages [11:16am] Victorrama: I say kill it along [11:16am] Cloudii: I think the current protocol is that the alternative language stays [11:16am] Cloudii: I think [11:17am] Cthaeh: I'm fine with just deleting the pages listed by the dmcas [11:17am] Kira0802: I never understood the point of Kadokawa nuking a French project when the series will never see the light in French [11:17am] Cthaeh: (and cleaning up random missed pages) [11:17am] Victorrama: Random bot shot? [11:17am] Teh_ping: nope, alt goes too [11:17am] Teh_ping: it was in the original link [11:17am] Cloudii: In either case, @victorrama, if you feel differently, this is something to express in the elections~ [11:17am] Teh_ping: all languages go in the DMCA [11:18am] Victorrama: Tomorrow huh? [11:18am] Cloudii: where is this Teh_Ping? [11:18am] Kira0802: I've been under the impression Kadokawa just ctrl-F its projects and be like "this is illegal" [11:18am] Cloudii: on the all languages going in the DMCA? [11:19am] Cloudii: This hasn’t been our policy; when Spice and Wolf went, the other languages stayed [11:19am] Teh_ping: I'm looking into it atm [11:19am] Teh_ping: think deletion was inconsistent back then [11:20am] Kira0802: Book Girl Vietnamese stayed, for instance [11:20am] Cloudii: Teh ping if you want to nuke the alt languages you should run for executive council~ [11:20am] Teh_ping: ...I'm checking through 30k messages for now [11:21am] Cloudii: Alright anything else (for the last time)? [11:21am] Cloudii: Otherwise I’m ending the log here [11:21am] Kira0802: End the log here [11:21am] Cloudii: Cool~ [11:21am] Cloudii: Meeting ajourned! [11:22am] aielarbalest: good work guys [11:22am] Teh_ping: cloud, for an idea for DMCA: https://lumendatabase.org/notices/11335568 [11:22am] Kira0802: (And adopt RS' proposal) [11:22am] • Victorrama cheers [11:22am] Cloudii: what do you mean Teh_ping? [11:22am] Teh_ping: https://lumendatabase.org/notices/11667737 [11:22am] Teh_ping: ...well, if you check the links, they do have alt [11:22am] Teh_ping: it's just inconsistent [11:22am] Kira0802: It fucking went to the Vietnamese and French projects [11:23am] Cloudii: Well, take down the projects that the DMCA hits [11:23am] Cloudii: if the DMCA misses… idk… spanish… then spanish runs free [11:23am] Cloudii: Russian Roulette! [11:23am] Joay: heh [11:23am] Victorrama: That sounds.... Meeping fun [11:23am] Kira0802: Just for fun [11:24am] Kira0802: Is there a way to unlist projects from Google? [11:24am] Kira0802: .g discord [11:24am] Victorrama: Kill the meta? [11:24am] Cthaeh: yes, there is [11:24am] Cthaeh: but I don't really want to do that [11:25am] Cthaeh: (personally) [11:25am] Kira0802: Ah, ok. [11:25am] Teh_ping: we're just strangling ourselves if we do that, I think

Complete Log of the Sunday Session
[...]