Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

Terminology to Standardize

Sushi-Y has made a forum post that pretty well obsoletes this section. Check it out here instead. -- this unsigned statement was made by BlckKnght on 2006-08-20 16:13:58.

One term not defined there, which shows up all over chapter 1 is 使い魔, currently translated as "Familiar Spirit." I'm wondering if we should trim that down to just "familiar." A related term is 春の使い魔召喚, which could translate to "Spring Familiar Summoning ceremony" or something similar. Any thoughts? BlckKnght 18:05, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Another one is 幻獣, currently translated as "Illusion Beast." When Cala-kun was on IRC last night, he seemed to imply this was a pretty generic term for a magical creature, not a specific reference to one specific type. I could have misunderstood him though (I think he was talking about it in a different context than I see it now). I'll also ask about these in the forums. BlckKnght 18:39, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Chapter One

Page number

I'll keep the page numbers for now, until we get the first half of the chapter.

Onizuka-gto 08:31, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Actually just keep the page number, the other groups will need it for the scans.

Onizuka-gto 17:12, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 12

The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1) She seemed to be around Saito's age and she wore(2) a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3) She seems like a foreigner. Well... She is(4). But she is such a cute foreigner girl(5), like a doll. Or is she a half?(6)

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before.

Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)

There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a stranger.(8) There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9) This was just like a fantasy.

Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.

(1) This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky fall out behind a person? Is the girl looking at Saito's face, staring at Saito's face or looking/staring into Saito's eyes?

• Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky.

The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

Onizuka-gto 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(2) Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.

• the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.

It's easier.

Onizuka-gto 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(2.5) "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる 【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(3) I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced about". The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Ah. That clears things up.

My new change: "Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage" for their stage -> as their stage

--Da~Mike 14:05, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

I thought it might be something close to; "Her reddish-brown eyes danced with her strawberry blond hair, and her flawless white skin was their stage."

Nandeyanen 08:30, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

The naming game gave me the source text for this sentence awhile ago but I forgot to save it! In any case, referring to the naming game's comments above, to anthropomorphize things (I hate that word...), the eyes would be the dancers while the hair would be curtains and the skin would be like a backdrop (the scenery). Hence, the hair and the skin is "the stage" while the eyes are dancing around in this "stage".

Well, at least that's my interpretation of that interpretation...

--Da~Mike 17:56, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

I actually just realized this, and was posting on how people should disregard my last interpretation, but you beat me to it... I came to the realization that my last interpretation doesn't really make as much sense (if any at all) as the previous interpretation. As for the previous interpretation, I agree with the point that The naming game brought up, in that it would be better if it were "dance/danced about." I would phrase it as, "Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes dance about, with her strawberry blond hair and flawless white skin set as their stage." It doesn't sound quite right, and can probably be improved upon. Also, should we have changed the tense of the sentence?

Nandeyanen 10:06, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

(4) Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).

ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.

(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)

She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.

(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(5) foreigner girl -> foreign girl

(6) This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. "Or is she half-Japanese?

いや、ハーフだろうか？

No, half perhaps?

Just for reference.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(7) I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

"Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"

had come to be lying -> found himself lying

--Da~Mike 14:06, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highligheted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

--Da~Mike 11:20, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

(8) Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a though he were a stranger".

黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(9) Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.

--Da~Mike 17:51, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

• I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

Onizuka-gto 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.

(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

The naming game 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 14

"Mr. Colbert!" The girl who has been called Louise shouted(1). The wall of people divided, and there appeared a middle aged man.(2)

Saito thought it was funny. Because this man looked ridiculous.(3) He had a big wooden cane(4) and was wearing a black robe that covered him.(5) What kind of look is that? He seemed like a wizard, is he sane?

I got it, this place must be a place for cosplay. But this atmosphere doesn't seem right for it.(6)

All of a sudden Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this was an religious

group? It is possible. They must have put me to sleep some how and brought me here while I was taking a walk in

town. That mirror must have been a trap. If not I have no explanation for this.

Stay quiet, until he knows what was going on(6), Saito thought to himself.

That girl Louise keeps on talking, saying "Let me try it again", or "please", and shaking

her arms wildly.(7)

I felt sorry for her to be in this weird religious group, especially since she is so cute.

"What is it, Miss. Valiale?"

"Please! let me try the summoning one more time!"

I'll use this symbol -> to indicate that I have or want to substitute something.

(1) -> "The girl called Louise shouted" (removed "has been")

(2) -> "and there, appeared a middle-aged man." (added a comma and a hypen)

(3) -> "Saito thought it was funny because this man looked ridiculous." (joined the two sentences)

(4) -> "sported a big wooden cane" (used the word "sported" to emphasise that the man looks ridiculous)

(5) Does the black robe cover him entirely or? Robes are either worn or donned. I don't think they "cover" people. Other ways to suggest how the man is wearing the robe would be: "the black robe was draped over him" or "the black robe hung from his shoulders".

(6) -> "But this doesn't seem to be the right atmosphere for it." (Mild grammatical change)

(7) -> "until he knows what is going on" (I don't believe people think to themselves in past tense...)

(8) -> "That girl Louise kept on saying "Let me try it again", or "please", whilst shaking her arms wildly." (IMHO, Louise was being described in the past tense, not the present tense.)

--Da~Mike 18:50, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 15

I've done some rewriting to this page, but one passage still has me stumped:

"You fix a future attribute in the familiar spirit which appeared by a summoning and then advance to a specialized course with it. You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony. Whether you like it or not, you don't have a choice but to have him as your familiar spirit." 

The first sentace completely baffles me. Is the "fix a future attribute" supposed to mean something with respect to the different types of magic? Would a reasonable rewriting be (though the terminology would still need to be corrected):

"Your [magical aptitude] is determined by the familiar spirit you summon, so you'll be taking special advanced classes on it. ..."

BlckKnght 17:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

From my reading of the original sentence, as well as your interpretation, this is how I understand them. In your interpretation, it seems that the familiar determines the mage's [magical aptitude]. Thus, the familiar affects the mage. However, in the original sentence, it seems to say that the mage imparts an attribute/ability to the familiar. Meaning, the mage affects the familiar and gives him ("fixes") an attribute to it. I'm not certain of what they mean by attribute, as it could either refer to an ability or it could very well refer to the different elements of magic. I think it would probably be best to just leave "attribute" as "attribute" and leave it a little vague.

Nandeyanen 10:32, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 16

(1) I have no idea. -> I don't understand.

(2) It might be possible to find a chance quickly, and run away. -> It might be possible for me to find a chance and quickly run away.

(3) An abduction! I was being abducted! -> An abduction! I have been abducted!

(4) "You are kidding me..." -> "You have got to be joking..."

(5) Louise drooped her shoulders, disappointed. -> Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

--Da~Mike 19:46, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

This is very, very minor, but I think it sounds better as "Louise's shoulders drooped in disappointment."

Nandeyanen 10:20, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 17

(1) "Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling to her." -> "...it was troubling her."

(2) "Hey," -> "Hey."

(3) "It usually never happens, a thing like this, done by a noble." -> "It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

--Da~Mike 14:08, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

お前らはただの変態コスプレ新興宗教野郎じゃないかよ。

• omae-ra wa tada no hentai cosplay shinkyou-shuukyou yarou janai ka yo.
• you(plural) only abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks aren't?
• Aren't you just a bunch of abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks?

Used "freaks" for "yarou" ... example sentences give it the meaning of anything from "guy" to any bad name you can think of. Some of those example sentences made me question the integrity of that database...

Still, that long string of name-calling was kinda fun to decipher, especially "hentai", which I, unfortunately, used the tamer interpretation for. So that's what I'm thinking of, for the new version of that sentence.

The naming game 02:47, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

The original translation that was provided did connote the original meaning (literally) but I think your change is better, except for how you chose to interpret 変態 (hentai) I think. The individual kanji constitutes of (unusual, change, strange) + (condition, figure, appearance, attitude) and based on what little I know about the usage of the word and its implications, I would think that the word "abnormal" is perhaps too gentle a description. I would instead suggest using harsher words such as: aberrant, twisted or even queer (this word has numerous colloquial definitions though). However, by interpreting 野郎 (yarou) as freaks, you've effectively covered both words at once. The supposed definition of "yarou" that I've seen in several dictionaries is "rascal" yet the manner by which this word is used, it would probably be more appropriate to interpret it as an obscene or blasphemous word.

--Da~Mike 12:48, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 18

(1) "Just be still." -> "Just stay still."

(2) "Uh! I told you to be still!" -> "Uh! I told you to stay still!"

(3) Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand. -> Louise gruffly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

(4) The touch of soft lips confused Saito more. -> The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.

--Da~Mike 19:57, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 21

(1) "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected, to stop them." - > "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them."

(2) " but I can't just lay around quietly -> "but I can't just lie around quietly"

--Da~Mike 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Montmorency the Fragrance" -> "Montmorency the Perfume"

The change being, conforming to the guidelines, however, the guideline has yet to be agreed upon.

Personally I find Fragrance a more elegant and sophisicated description compared to "Perfume", which conjures an image of artificial pretense. While Fragrance gives the impression of natural beauty and inane ability.

Onizuka-gto 20:22, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 22

(1) "The feeling of heat lasted only for a second." -> "The hot sensation..."

(2) "The middle-aged cosplaying man who is called Colbert came to the kneeing Saito, and checked the back of his left hand." -> "...man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito and checked the back of his left hand."

(3) "It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern he had never seen before." -> "...in a pattern I have never seen before."

(4) "...he really lost it." -> "Saito really lost it." (to minimise confusion)

--Da~Mike 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(1) "The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around then floated in the air." -> "...and then rose gently into the air." ('floated in the air' implies he's already there)

(2) "Saito's jaw dropped as he stared at him." -> "Saito's jaw dropped in shock." (gets to the point)

--CrowKenobi 19:35, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 23

(1) "Everyone who was floating flew towards that stone wall castle quietly." -> "Everyone who was floating flew towards the stone-walled castle quietly."

(2) "The only ones left behind were the girl named Louise and Saito." -> "The only ones left behind was the girl named Louise and Saito."

--Da~Mike 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 24

(1) "Of course they do, what would we do if mages couldn't fly?" -> "Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

(2) "This is Tristein! And this is the well known Tristein Magic School!" -> "This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

(renown = The quality of being widely honoured and acclaimed; fame.)

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 25

才人は笑いながら言った。しかし、ルイズは笑わない。

Saito laughed while said. However, Louise laughed-not.

(just a quick literal translation to justify an edit revert.)

--The naming game 06:34, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

Page 26

Maijis those flew away from here and those fantasy word connect.

Maijis?

Mages perhaps?

(2) "Tonight's dinner is hamburger." -> "Tonight's dinner is hamburgers."

I personally dislike this sentence. I changed what little I could to make it sound better. While I am aware that "hamburger" is how Japanese people literally refer to beef patties, I think it should either be edited to flow well in English or a translation note be added for this.

--Da~Mike 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 35

(1) "Why did I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!" -> Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

did -> do ("did" would be used if Lousie was looking back at the past... not much of a past with this guy so far)

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 36

(1) unconcerned -> indifferent -> dispassionate (I think her face simply isn't showing any emotion, not that she doesn't care)

--Da~Mike 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "...and the computer came to life with a 'whirr.'" -> "...and the computer whirred to life."

--Da~Mike 13:29, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 37

(1) "Louise stuck out her lips in a pout." -> "Louise pouted." (removed redundant words)

(2) "Clutching at her own long hair, Louise just shook her head." -> "Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head."

--Da~Mike 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Worry was etched on Louise's face as she answered Saito." -> "Louise's face was etched with anxiety as she answered Saito." ->

(Worry didn't seem that appropriate. The closest match to worry was anxiety but that doesn't seem to be the manner by which Louise responded. It seems more as though she's either uneasy or uncomfortable because she doesn't know how to undo what she did."

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 38

(1) "Normally only things like animals or magical beasts are summoned." -> "Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned."

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 39

(1) "...and not too tall with a height of 155cm." (that's really short actually... I didn't change this since this came from a Japanese book aimed at Japanese people...)

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 40

(1) "But mostly they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not actually do anything relevant." -> "But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant."

(2) "But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you." -> "But it seems that doesn't work with you." (I basically rolled back the change)

--Da~Mike 13:31, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 41

(1) "Yeah yeah." -> "Yes yes." (This is an issue to do with Louise's manner of speech, which I have raised in the "Unified Guidelines")

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 42

(1) "And then she brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse." -> "She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse."

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

Page 43

(1) "Saito thought, face heating up" -> "Saito thought as his face began to flush"

(2) "Kuyashii" 悔しい　-> rueful -> disgruntled "kuyashii" is more accurately translated as vexed/dissapointed or chagrined. I tried to find a word that seemed to match the tone of Louise's speech and the mood a typical "boy" might be in after being rejected (presumably from asking a girl out).

--Da~Mike 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)