User talk:Cthaeh

(Old) Index consistency editing

I spent a bit of effort attempting to make Index more consistent between volumes. I've deleted much of that list and comments, but if you're reviewing those edits for whatever reason, you can find the list and and comments in the history for this page (earlier than the following time stamp). --Cthaeh (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2013 (CST)

Still unresolved

The following items I didn't fix when I did my editing, because I either discovered it while editing, wasn't satisfied that I knew which one was right, or felt it was just too much of a pain to do. This list might be helpful to anyone who wants to do similar consistency editing to tamni, which will not be me in the foreseeable future. It probably will never be used, but I would feel bad throwing it away.

Remaining items

‘Seven Heavens Seven Swords (Shichiten Shichitou)’ <-> Shichiten Shichitou <-> Seven Heavens Seven Swords ‘Kamiue’ <-?-> the One Above God ‘Demigods’ <-?-> 'The one similar to God' (or similar phrasing) (referring to one of the four archangels) Power of God <-> The Power of God Angel’s power <-> single quoted "outside" (nt1ch1) / Outside / outside Spell of Thororm <-> Thororm's technique reflection / vector control / vector transformation <-> vector reflection <-> Vector Change <-> vector power magic book (v7) <-?-> grimoire <-?-> magical text (these might have all been changed) church <-> Church Third Season program <-> Third Season project <-> Third Production Plan (equivalent searches for any instances of 1st and 2nd as well) -Any advice on which, if any, of those should be removed and consolidated? -OH&S: The keyword is 計画 which means [plan; project; schedule; scheme; program; programme]. I would decide between Plan and Project. I would go for Project as it sounds more appropriate. -Cthaeh: OK, that would resolve the question between the first two, but is the Third Production Plan supposed to be different ("Production" vs "Season")? description of Aleister (sinner <-> criminal <-> convict) (feminine <-> female <-> woman) (male <-> man) -Hopefully this can be answered satisfactorily without having to look up each, but I assume should all these be formatted the same/similar? There are the three sets of differing word choice summarized above. There is one out of the typical order of man/woman-->adult/child-->saint/sinner. There is one swap of the typical Adult-->Child order. I'm assuming that those three things should all be the same, even if the structure of the sentences differs? (v2ch1) The silver-haired “human” appeared like a man but somehow feminine, like an adult but somehow childlike, like a saint but somehow criminal. ... He sounded like a man but somehow feminine, like an adult but somehow childlike, like a saint but somehow criminal. ... The human spoke, the being that appeared like a man but somehow feminine, like an adult but somehow childlike, like a saint but somehow criminal formed an expression which could have been considered a smile and continued. (v6pro) This person looked like a man, yet also a woman; like an adult, yet also a child; like a saint, yet also a criminal. (v6epil) This person, Aleister, who looked like a man, and like a woman; an adult, and a child; a Saint, and a convict, had all the possibilities of humanity. (v9ch1) It was hard to tell whether that voice belongs to a man or a woman, a child or an adult, a Saint or a criminal. (v10epil) This person, it was unknown if he was a man or a woman, an adult or a child, a Saint or a convict. (v10epil) In the darkness, the ‘human’ laughed. / Was that from the greatest scientist in the world? / Or was that from the strongest magician in the world? / Was he a man, or a woman? / An adult, or a child? / A Saint, or a convict? (v16epil)An Adult, and yet a Child; a Man, and yet a Woman; a Saint, and yet a Sinner (v19epil) For just an instant, a slight distortion entered that human voice that sounded like the voice of both a man and a woman, both of an adult and a child, and both of a saint and a criminal. (v22epil)He had an odd atmosphere that made him seem both male and female, both adult and child, and both saint and sinner. -Cthaeh: I like sinner for matching against saint (alliteration and thematic) -Ultranova17: I agree that sinner sounds better. -Teh Ping: 'Sinner' sounds better, but may be too light of a term to be used in this case. We are talking about the Most Wicked Man in the World after all. -Cthaeh: So, 2 editor votes + 1 translator/supervisor anti-vote = ??? -Skies: The quoted sentence you have there from Volume 2 Chapter 1 were personal liberties that I took to make it more sensible in English. While it's possible to be a (noun), you can only be described by (adjectives). This the reasoning for being a man described as feminine, an adult described as childlike, and a saint described as criminal. Ultimately, the sentence is just a stylistic way of saying the statements said below. Whether or not you choose to adopt this or revert it to a simpler standard is up to you. These are evolving translations after all. commander (referring to Last Order) (nt1ch1) <-> command tower <-> control tower -This could easily be intentional word choice diversity, so I won’t change unless told they should be the same? -js06: They should be the same. -Cthaeh: I could decide between them myself, but is there any preference for one term or the other (I'd normally go by whatever js06 uses, but there are multiple instances of both command and control tower in js06 translated chapters) XXth school district / District XX / XXth District / the XXth district / XXth student district -While this isn’t too big of an issue, I feel like there is a little too much diversity. If someone wants to suggest terms to consolidate to, then I’ll do that. Otherwise I’ll probably leave it alone. -Ultranova: I've always edited it to District XX, since that's the term js06 uses. -Skies: In all of my edits, I change them to District 11 or something similar. To be extremely pedantic, 11th District would always require that you add "of Academy City" or "of the city" to be grammatically correct. Amakusa Catholics / Amakusa Church / Amakusa Christian Church (NecCh1) / Amakusas / Amakusa / Amakusa-style Church / Amakusa-style Remix of Church / Amakusa Style Remix of Church / Amakusa Style Remix-of-Church -I could use some guidance here as to which terms to keep. The last three are likely trivial to decide on, but I think some of the first few forms should be consolidated. -Teh Ping: I hate this one, and simply copied the title. Well, they aren't really Catholics, so I think Amakusa Church is more appropriate in this case. -Cthaeh: (I don't like it either) Anyone want to save me from indecisiveness by bolding which terms to keep? Removing single quotes around special terms (ie ‘Stab Sword’ -> Stab Sword, ‘Apostle's Cross’ -> Apostle's Cross, and others) -Teh Ping’s style was to use single quotes around special terms. Js06 does not, and there are quite a few entries on this list that relate to making those two styles consistent for terms that are spread across the volumes. In addition, there are a few terms that only appear in Teh Ping translated chapters and are therefore already consistent. However, I am still planning to remove the single quotes in order for the general style to be more consistent across volumes. - OH&S (paraphrasing): PLEASE DON'T REMOVE THEM. The apostrophes are clues that the word may not be translated correctly. I hope to systematically remove them as I edit each part. -Ultranova17: I greatly dislike the single quotes around terms. It may just be me, but it makes the volume much more annoying to read when every term is in a quote or some kind of special character. There is always the history link above if an editor needs to see what terms were in single quotes. -Skies: Once all translations are rechecked and confirmed, all grammatically erroneous singular quotes should be removed. If you want to do this immediately, I recommend just copy pasting all of the single-quoted terminologies and pasting them onto the discussion page. Alternatively, putting traditional quotation marks is reasonable as well (e.g.: The weapon was called the "Stab Sword."). -Cthaeh: I think my plan is going to be to leave the quotes for the "major" terms (ie 'Apostle's Cross') that I haven't already put on this list in other sections (ie 'Saint'). So things that are already listed in other sections will be changed as indicated. And then there are also some things that I haven't listed here that I may change when I go skimming through the list of everything with single quotes (it's too long of a list for me to want to go through it an extra time just to pick out things to put on this page, but an example I noticed was 'Deep Blood'), if I know that term is already correct. (Hamazura's/ was) super Hamazura (ntch1) <-?-> super Hamazura-y (v19) Angel of Ice, Archangel of Water (v21ch8) / (vs lower case forms) / water angel (v22ch9) Skies: The question there is whether or not you want to use the term as a title. Of the three, archangel of water (ignore the capitalization for the moment) is the most appropriate. Ice is inaccurate theologically and water angel implies it's made of water rather than the fact that it has mastery over water. If you want to use it as a title, like the Archangel of Water Gabriel, then that's appropriate. Otherwise it's fairly just pedantic preference. -Cthaeh: Do you know that the original JP uses only one term where the translation uses two (Angel of Ice, Archangel of Water)? Normally I look at whether whether or not the term usage is split along translator lines, but Angel of Ice and Archangel of Water both appear in the same passage by the same translator, so I was suspicious that there were two different terms in the original. -Ultranova17: Based on the three ones I looked up, it seems like water should be correct. However, angel and archangel both seem to be used. 水の大天使 is the term used in v21ch7p7, and 水の天使 is both used in v21ch8p4 and v22ch9p3 Salvare000 - A saving hand for those who cannot be saved. (2x-nt2ch4) <--?--> Salvare000 — Be the salvation of those who cannot be saved (v4ch3) First Production Plan <-?-> Radio Noise project -Ultranova17: I'm not sure about other volumes, but in volume 5, all instances of "First Production Plan" were 量産型能力者 《レデイオノイズ》 in Japanese. That has Radio Noise as the furigana. I used a lower case project in those edits, but I'm not sure if it should be capitalized or not. brainwashing machine (v13ch8) <-> self-learning (device) <-> Testament -OH&S: Testament is correct. Learning Device is the kanji. Supreme Pontiff <-> Priestess -Ultranova17: Priestess is the furigana. 元女教皇 《プリエステス》 -janyo (n1ch1) <-> -jan (at end of Yomikawa's speech) (ntch1 also uses -jan, so I'm not sure if the janyo is intentional) educational guidance <-> student counseling (referring to gorilla-like teacher) magi <-?-> magicians Knights (TP) <-> knights (js06) oujo <-> high-class girl spears <-> lances <-> Bomber Lances love comedy <-> romantic comedy esper development <-> esper ability development <-> psychic powers development <-> psychic power development <-> esper development <-> -Ultranova17: I've always edited it to psychic powers as that's what js06 translates it as. Same with changing esper powers to psychic powers, and Level 5 esper to just Level 5. -(I forgot to add an OH&S comment from the pm, so this is not actually a response to Ultranova17, even though the opinion is counter) OH&S: "esper vs psychic: I will probably change them all to esper after consulting js06." -Cthaeh: This ended up on my list after noticing it in some of Ultranova17's edits. Frankly I'm not too motivated about this one, so I may just leave it as is. The same goes for the below entry. (esper) development institute <-> (psychic powers) development institution <-> (psychic powers) development organization (referring to Academy city as a whole 'Knights of Rounds' (v16ch3) / Knights of England (v17 ch1) <-> not used by js06 -Ultranova17: According to js06, for Knights of Rounds, the Japanese is 騎士派, which is consistent with the rest of the series for the knight faction. -Cthaeh: So the first should be knight faction? ‘Abnormal Halloween Night’s incident’ (nt1ch1) <-?-> British Halloween (v20) high class lady <-> ojou <-> lady the Third World War <-> World War III <-> World War 3 <-> World War Three -I'll probably get rid of at least some of these forms, I just haven't decided which. If you have an opinion feel free to share. -Skies: Historians typically use a variation of the first three (the first two in particular) but not so much the fourth. Original <-> original (for referring to Mikoto relative the clones) Original <-> original (grimoire) imouto (v3ch1, others) -> sister -I'm not a fan of using imouto, but I think it's one of those things that some people think is important to keep, so it ended up on this list. -Ultranova17: I like using Misaka Imouto, but I don't like having imouto in place of sister. Chapter 1 of volume 3 was something I had trouble with. Misaka Imouto refers to #10032 exclusively. Touma first meets Misaka #10031, who is referred in the translation as Misaka-imouto. I'm not really sure what that should be, as it would seem kind of weird to just start calling her Misaka's (younger) sister, and then suddenly switch to Misaka Imouto once #10032 shows up. -Cthaeh: I do also like the usage of Misaka Imouto, and not imouto for the standard sister. I'll probably leave everything as is unless one of the two translators/supervisor comments in favor of switching (less work for me that way). Misaka-imouto <-> Misaka Imouto -Ultranova17: When referring to #10032. -Cthaeh: I never quite noticed that before now (I remember you brought it up somewhere before, but I didn't understand what you were talking about at the time). I assume there's probably not any instances that need to be switched then, and I'll leave resolving the awkwardness you mentioned in an above entry to someone else at a later date. ‘Queen’s Fleet’ <-> Queen’s Fleet 177th branch office <-> 177th Branch Office (also some other branch office numbers) Third Gate (v13ch6) <-> third gate (v13ch6) one piece <-> one-piece world police <-> 'World Police' earth <-> Earth (as the planet) lord (v17ch4) -> Lord (when referring to the Christian god) blonde (for women) <-> blond (for men) "outside" (nt1ch1) / Outside / outside "graveyard" <-> graveyard (nt1ch1) Biri Biri <-> biri biri <-> biribiri cross <-> Cross god <-> God Misaka speech (use of single quotes or not) usage of it/its vs she/her for Misha/Gabriel (v20-22 seems to use she, v4 seems to use both) thought formatting (nothing, italics, parentheses, and combinations thereof) use and prevalence of caps for shouting numbers as digits vs as words the usage of s's, s', ss's, ect (Note: ), (TN: ) to references with ref tag whether or not to put noinclude on the Notes sections (have single notes section in full text or multiple) formatting for dates (use or lack of st, nd, rd, th) -… <-> emdash curly/straight quotation marks commas and periods (and other punctuation) inside vs outside of quotation marks

A Continued Conversation

Hey Cthaeh, I am just continuing our PM conversation from AS here as per your suggestion.

So about having words on words: It was never my goal to inconvenience others with my edits. As you could tell by looking at the calendar I uploaded, I have a higher tolerance towards detail than others would like. I wanted to make my edits benefit the translation and the Index LN readers rathre than hinder them. As such, I am going to have a major rethink on how to go about working with these alternately pronounced words. I actually understand the angle at which you are approaching the issue; it can be a distraction when reading. Seeing furigana on words all the time would bring about a headache. Like you said in your earlier PM, there are a lot of words for which the base kanji is only slightly different from what is spoken and very little extra information is given. In such a case, I wouldn't include it either, or only include it for the first use of the word. e.g. Illusion DestroyerImagine Breaker only for the first time in the entire series.
Another issue that may be annoying to deal with is that of the furigana being squeezed between the two lines in blocks of text like the given example. Sometimes there is overlap, which increases the difficulty of reading and makes the aforementioned headache worse. It would be unwise to have furigana in such a scenario.
Lastly the use of bold text for the base words: I was just experimenting to see if it was a viable option (for the app) and have yet to change it back. After looking at it and hearing your opinion on it, I dont like it either. The specific example you used, Asociacion di Cienia, was bolded to highlight what was actually pronounced. No need to worry about it, that particular example doesn't even need furigana going by the above criteria. If no one changes it by the time I get to it, I will do it myself.

In the end, I may be able to avoid the excessive use of furigana by making clever use of the ref tag. I can create a reference group for alternate pronounciations and stuff all of the furigana there while listing them at the bottom of the chapter page with the other notes; its seems like a better choice. Though I still plan on using furigana for at least some of the one-off or rarely used phrases in the series.

e.g. Dragon King's Killing BreathDragon Breath ... Actually, bad example. If the furigana is longer than the base, then I will also put it into the alt references. Like so:

Dragon Breath

If I do things like this, I may be able to minimize the use of furigana as much as possible. However, some important ones do need to be there, like the epic line from Touma at the end of Volume 3 Chapter 4. I can also include translations of other terms not in english within the alt references. Essentially, all(majority) of the headache inducing furigana will be at the bottom of the page for those who actually click the the footnote. As long as you don't click them, no headaches. This would also fall in line with my goal of fixing up the notes section across all volumes. What do you think of this new method? If I create another ref group for the other references, then I think this method will work well for the Index series. It would also be good to get feedback from the other translators and editors.--OH&S (talk) 08:48, 18 September 2013 (CDT)

I think references is probably the best compromise between those who want the extra information, and those who don't want to be distracted while reading. I think excess references in the text can also be distracting as well (though not as much), so my personal preference would still be to leave out unnecessary terms, and to only reference the first occurrence if it as least somewhat important. The example of Dragon Breath (Dragon King's Killing Breath) is one that I personally wouldn't consider it important enough to get a reference even on the first occurrence. Though obviously opinions will differ on what is important.

One idea might be to make a list of all furigana terms on a separate page (linked from the main project page), and then those who are interested could still see all the terms that use furigana, including those that weren't important enough to get references. What I'm imagining is a new page with a sortable list (see this page for an example of the wikitable sortable format), with columns <vX-cY (first appearance)> - <kanji translation> - <furigana translation>. That way people would be able to sort by first appearance and look up such terms for a given volume, or sort by name to look up if they forgot the first occurrence. Though I don't know if such list on a separate page would be a satisfactory method of providing the extra information from the perspective of those who want that extra information. --Cthaeh (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2013 (CDT)

Well I think the best course of action is to forget about the furigana edits for now and for me to do my edits for Volume 1 and 2. Then go back and make furigana related edits afterwards as a trial. After we can come to an agreement on how to go about furigana edits. I can continue with the designated format. How does that sound?--OH&S (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2013 (CDT)

Sure. Though if you wanted to include your furigana related edits in your first pass, I think that'd be fine too. And others might have opinions to contribute as well; my opinion isn't all that important beyond representing readers who may be like me. --Cthaeh (talk) 21:38, 18 September 2013 (CDT)

Well, regardless of what happens, Volumes 1 and 2 will function as the trial.--OH&S (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2013 (CDT)

General Comments

Thanks for the heads up on the Log Horizon illustrations.--Drowzycow (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2013 (CST)

I have replied to your PM on Animesuki--OH&S (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2013 (CST)

I have made the requested changes. I also responded on Animesuki--OH&S (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2013 (CST)

Hello Cthaeh, I thought you would like an update regarding my recent edits to the main page. I added onto the page discussion here. There is a bit of me repeating what I have already told you but there are a few more thoughts there.--OH&S (talk) 01:54, 6 December 2013 (CST)

Cthaeh, would it be possible to hear some feedback from you regarding the recent changes I made to the Index Main Page (on the page discussion)? Thank you.--OH&S (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2013 (CST)

Thanks for the feedback. Ive put my thoughts about it in the discussion page. You don't need to reply to this.--OH&S (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2013 (CST)

I have updated the main page yet again with a small list changes put on the discussion page. Thinngs look much better now. Thanks again.--OH&S (talk) 23:58, 10 December 2013 (CST)

Thanks for adding the image link, I was staring for quote some minutes at the page when I did it and thought "I know there's something missing..." :D -cautr (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2013 (CST)

Thanks for the heads up. Am always trying to identify hanging quotes. Some are impossible but that one was solved by looking up the original. --Aoi uchuu (talk) 00:43, 18 January 2014 (CST)

I'm thinking of editing another Index volume in the veins of Volumes 1 and 2. Which of the novels in particular would you like to see edited, or think I ought to, stylistic, Cthaeh? --Skies (talk) 20:31, 27 January 2014 (CST)

I do have 16 done, but I was fairly liberal with the text and it would require a TL check at some point. I think volumes that are the most difficult to read might be best. I feel fewer misgivings about messing up translations when the translations are already questionable. --Skies (talk) 23:54, 27 January 2014 (CST)