User talk:Mashu

Tsukkomi

Tsukkomi is best interpreted as a jab at something. It's not as complicated as I've seen some comments about it. I'm sure you guys already know what it is, but I'll just explain just in case. It's basically where one butts in and makes corrections to someone's stupid mistake or statement.

Example: Kotomi tells Tomoya that it's okay for students of this school to come to the library freely. He thinks: 今は閉室時間だろとか、そもそも今日は学校休みだろとか、ツッコミたいことは山ほどあったが、問題はそこじゃない。

• Wouldn't you think that: Mountains of corrections such as 'isn't it supposed to be closed' and 'school is not even active today' came to mind, but that wasn't the problem.
• Sounds a lot better than: There are mountains of tsukkomi I could do such as 'isn't it supposed to be closed' and 'school is not even active today' but that wasn't the problem.

Discuss!

That's fine for me. We could use some proper replacement with the tsukkomi lines to make the translation clear, like the one I did with SEEN4506 :3

<0187> \{Kyou} "Saying such easygoing words would someday make this place a gathering spot for some other club." *

// Not sure with this line though @_@ -DGreater1

// \{杏}「そんな悠長なこと言ってるから、ここはいつまで経っても変な部外者のたまり場なのよ」

<0188> \{\m{B}} "Can I butt in with '\bDon't say that.'?"\u

// \{\m{B}}「『おまえが言うな』ってツッコんでもいいか？」

<0189> \{Kyou} "I'll retaliate with '\bYou too.'"\u

// \{杏}「『あんたもね』ってツッコミかえすわよ？」

<0190> \{\m{B}} "........."

// \{\m{B}}「………」

The next question is, are we going to replace every tsukkomi lines so it would work with the line or only those that need a clear interpretation? Like for example, Line 0307 of SEEN4418, Line 0079, 0101, 0318 of SEEN4419. We might end up completely eliminating the essence of tsukkomi in exchange for clear interpretation if we change every tsukkomi lines though. And there's discussion problem too @_@, only a few of us might discuss this problem... -DGreater1

I'm fine with it given that not only is it very implicit, but there are notations that make it obvious. If we all remember, there's some line when Tomoya is talking to Kotomi and he asks himself, will I always be the tsukkomi? So even if all the lines use it without actually saying it, since you don't usually say tsukkomi within a tsukkomi, there are portions that specificially state it. There's also the effects of sudden responses, which Kyou does, or the quotations with the bolding emphasis. If anything, if the tsukkomi replacement is losing essence, then provide it on the first tsukkomi line or so. Does a problem occur, we'll just adjust accordingly. I mean, things like the urate chop won't be changed, I believe. -Amoirsp

Un and Uun.

Well, un and uun is obviously yes and no, though you'll also notice this is Kotomi's given behavioural pattern. As you notice, she is denoted as very childish, since despite having the characteristic of being a number one student, she is absolutely poor in socialising. Thus, un and uun were used to denote this specific pattern that does not exist in any other character. Since Kotomi's route is independent given that she does not exist in any other route, using an abnormal amount of yes and no had certain redundancy. It also made itself different than hai and iye (er I don't know the roomanji for the other no), because that version of yes and no exists in the other girl characters within the same route, yet they are so much different.

You'll also notice she says are and arere a lot. Surely it is huh but under context it's a very obvious implication. Again, child-like behaviour emphasized. Due to the oddity of repetition, it causes using this entirely in English seem the more awkward, especially when many notations are purely Japanese such as a certain Japanese idioms, which we probably wouldn't know immediately, as well as other things. Also are would be huh, but so would arere, as the second huh wouldn't denote the extra confusion or the denoted repetition.

In this sense un and uun can seem more like sounds of agreement. Like mmhmm and mmm mmm/nn nn (... yes and no). Like, it's supposed to be a notation of agreement or understanding, but not a strict yes, since that would be hai, or something like that. Well, that's just what I think. Same thing with no, it seems more like the version that you would do while shaking your head. You're saying no, but you're saying "nn nn" or in Japanese, "uun", though we wouldn't put mmhmm or nn nn or however you spell those.

Of course that doesn't mean un and uun are better than yes and no. Just wanted to briefly state why it was left like that, as you'll notice if you went through all the seens, all of them are un and uun for this specification that denotes Kotomi's independent personality that has no similarities to any characters, thus it was used as a distinguishing pattern. Though again, it is a notation of the childish behaviour, thus you see certain excessive repetition. You also already see how communication itself is already two different pages.

Though in all honesty it was simply used as personal flavouring, which was propelled by how independent the route is. You'll notice nearly immediately that when playing the game, you cannot have Kotomi routes coexist with any other routes, aside from the first day you meet her through skipping class.

Yes and no is fine, though there will be a ridiculously high amount of it. It would be English accurate, but by text alone it is less obvious of the mood or tone that one is a childish yes and the other a normal yes. So yes and no weren't used as distinguishing factours.

I repeated myself too much. Kotomi's route has more variability and less limitations, so it's easier to interchange. Notice how the language reversal was already a problem, though un and uun was merely preference. Yes and no is still correct. Of course there were also problems with not recognising lines from famous books or scientific names. Then you also have the SFX of a nod, then Tomoya saying she nodded, same goes with stopping, spinning, and whatever other sound effects occur in this route given the tsukkomi implications as well as Kotomi's relative cluenessness and odd behaviour. Again, that was why un and uun was used, to make the responses contain the oddity yet under context being obvious that there's more like sounds of agreement rather than a proper yes and no despite the fact that she is polite, she is still childish. So yeah, implicative notation is how I see it. I'm not going to change anything though.

--Amoirsp

Pros & Cons of maintaining the Un & Uun

Pros: As for me who knows how un and uun works, maintaining it has a good deal of reflecting a bit of Kotomi's timid personality which is one of the aspect that differentiate her to the other girls. It also eliminates the redundancy of too much yes, okay, no, not really and it fits how the word and voice is single syllable. And it also maintains her universal reply (all purpose agreement and disagreement with something.) and gives the reader an imagination that she might be shaking her head for uun and nodding once for un. It's almost the same as maintaining the way Fuuko says her name in most of her sentences :3

Cons: One of the cons is I'm not sure if most people would be able to understand how un and uun...

But anyway, I guess I'm a little bit in favor of maintaining it since I (personally) have no problem with it.

--DGreater1

It really doesn't matter to me how it's left, and I already know why it was left as un and uun. It'll just have to be real clear what un and uun means to the players. I was just more concerned about how the players will feel about un and uun.

My real concern is the reversing of the languages. I notice that some places where she's reading something in English, it was translated as her reading in Japanese, or a phrase in English is switched into a phrase in Japanese. I think this would just make things even more confusing, since the setting is already in Japan. Since the players are already aware that everybody in the game is Japanese, and that the game itself is Japanese, I really don't think any language should be reversed.

--Mashu 21:56, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

Oh about the language reversal on her route? The problem is the climax of her route. I really believe that it requires to reverse that part there because there's a purpose why that line is in English... and I don't think reversing that alone would be good with the flow of the translation. Take for example the scissor part with Kotomi in the bookshop. She said scissors in her first explanation but in the second explanation, she said, "In English it's scissor..." which is kind of redundant that's why I reversed it as "In Japanese..." that part also exist with Yukine's route where Sunohara said, "Really" in English then Tomoya commented on it with "More English words came out." It will look redundant and kind of odd when you read it because the readers are reading an English translation despite knowing that it's a Japanese game. You should also read this About the Language Reversal. Anyway, you'll see what I mean once you finish Kotomi's route... though I'm sure you'll finish reading Kotomi's route first before I finish translating her route ^_^; --DGreater1 1:30PM (+8:00)

About what you should do

Don't really know, you're in the Translator Team, but I think I prefer you to be in the Translation Checker Team since we don't really have anyone really fluent in Japanese to check if the translation is right or wrong, but even still, it's up to you or for the leader to decide :P -DGreater1

All I have to say is I like your inputs very much. So I'm not against anything. If you end up or currently like/enjoy the role you're doing or told to do, then I would find that best. -Amoirsp

Thanks, I enjoy translating and checking translations, but I also do believe checking your translations and grammar is what I would be faster and better at doing. -Mashu

IRC

Can you come idle in IRC when you can? Thanks. --velocity7

CLANNAD TV

Yo, Mashu, would you mind if we ask you for help with CLANNAD TV translation? Its air time in Japan is 1:30AM of Friday, so you have to be kind of free around the air time. Well, that's only if you're free at that time :3 -DGreater112