Maoyuu Maou Yuusha

[vermiliongrey]

Teh_ping, take a look at the revisions I had originally made.

This entire incident was overblown because quite frankly; ZZHK had no idea what he/she was talking about. The so called "controversial changes" I made were not controversial at all, they involved cleaning up the layout and updating the status of those who were working on the project and providing a direct link to an reading environment I had built that is superior to BT's (because BT is an editing environment, not a reading environment)

If you take a look at the history, you'll clearly see that there was no project supervisor listed when the changes were made.

Ultimately, I'm not saying I can do whatever I want; what I am saying is that I can make minor changes to make the wiki better because that reflects better on the project I'm working on. There is nothing "controversial" about helping the community by cleaning up an outdated page.

Even If I had known you were the supervisor, I wouldn't have asked you because I don't believe you are the type to micromanage every single little detail. At the end of the day, what I did was not earth-shattering, it was not controversial. It was a minor edit done to create a better page. Sadly, this incident got blown entirely out of proportion by people who are unfamiliar with the situation.

[vermiliongrey]

Also, If you agree with what I had said, I would appreciate it if you could unlock and restore the page to its previous form -with the exception of putting the three web versions into an archive category or something (actually, I could do this if you unlock it).

And if we don't agree, then please at least "archive" the web versions rather than having 18 empty chapters wasting room on the wiki page.

[YoakeNoHikari]

Crashed firefox when I tried to access it; superiority is subjective. I could just as easily claim that our reading interface is better because I like the colour scheme.

[Teh_ping]

Teh_ping, take a look at the revisions I had originally made.

This entire incident was overblown because quite frankly; ZZHK had no idea what he/she was talking about. The so called "controversial changes" I made were not controversial at all, they involved cleaning up the layout and updating the status of those who were working on the project and providing a direct link to an reading environment I had built that is superior to BT's (because BT is an editing environment, not a reading environment)

If you take a look at the history, you'll clearly see that there was no project supervisor listed when the changes were made.

Ultimately, I'm not saying I can do whatever I want; what I am saying is that I can make minor changes to make the wiki better because that reflects better on the project I'm working on. There is nothing "controversial" about helping the community by cleaning up an outdated page.

Even If I had known you were the supervisor, I wouldn't have asked you because I don't believe you are the type to micromanage every single little detail. At the end of the day, what I did was not earth-shattering, it was not controversial. It was a minor edit done to create a better page. Sadly, this incident got blown entirely out of proportion by people who are unfamiliar with the situation.

Also, If you agree with what I had said, I would appreciate it if you could unlock and restore the page to its previous form -with the exception of putting the three web versions into an archive category or something (actually, I could do this if you unlock it).

And if we don't agree, then please at least "archive" the web versions rather than having 18 empty chapters wasting room on the wiki page.

Honestly, just create an account for my sake here, please? Consider it a personal plea from me. It makes things more accountable. The problem here is that everyone is taking action on their own and making such a huge hoorah (and that goes for zzhk and Akuma too), which is why I'm taking over this case to micromanage...If I wasn't informed by some readers through my email, I probably wouldn't have bothered to check here...

When you say that your website is superior, doesn't that sound quite arrogant to you? It's all subjective in the first place. I can say that I like CE's blog best because I like bright colors or something here...it's all relative, subjected to personal preference. Sure, there is nothing controversial about cleaning up an outdated page, but replacing Astrea's ID with your own ID while you're using a proxy is what everyone is being jumpy about. Because as you can see from your latest update before the 'crusade' against you began (seriously, guys. Why do you people think we put the 'project admin and project supervisor' roles there...?), Astrea's name was not included in the translators list http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... did=190227, and yes, I didn't log in to check that, anyone can check it if they want to. I won't grant your request for one reason. If I don't set martial law now, who knows what will happen to the other projects? Assuming that I unlock it now, other folks will want to edit other projects anonymously, but without accountability, we have no idea who did what, or worse, what gets replaced or deleted. That's what they were all jumpy about. If you are worrying about the editing environment here, just tell me and I'll issue full locks where only supervisors and above ranked can edit (which we won't bother). I assured the other external translators (Canonrap and NanoDesu) that I would put a full lock on their work (I am ashamed to say that I forgot to do so for Fate/Apo as I'm typing this...Sorry Canonrap), so I will offer the same deal to you if you wish to continue hosting here (or Astrea, for that matter).

And as for 1, 19 and 20, I won't be deleting them. There's no such thing as an archive or sorts on BT. Only that the document is either there, or it's gone. Unless you show me proof that you finished up all 21 volumes for the sake of consistency, there is no point for me to trash someone else's translations into the delete folder for the sake of 'saving space' by 'deleting' 18 volumes. The reason is because the pages are never created in the first place. How can I delete something that doesn't exist in the first place? The 18 empty chapters don't even take up a single byte on this wiki because they never existed. So no, I won't be deleting them (and there's no archive or sorts here)

One of these days, I may not be here anymore. You guys have to get yourself familiarized with this website and understand how this place works so that you can sound more convincing. Oni and I can't be around all the time to clean up the mess here...

[YoakeNoHikari]

Did I -sound- like I was trying to clean anything up?

[Teh_ping]

Did I -sound- like I was trying to clean anything up?

It's at zzhk, Vermillion, Akuma, arcyx and Dung. Pardon me for sounding like I included you, Hikari. Inb4 someone says that there's no sound involved in forum text...

[YoakeNoHikari]

I don't think that there's any need to apologize.

[vermiliongrey]

Crashed firefox when I tried to access it; superiority is subjective. I could just as easily claim that our reading interface is better because I like the colour scheme.

You can change to color scheme to match Bakatsuki's on the bottom left. Also, have you replicated the crash? If so, could you send me the log?

It's at zzhk, Vermillion, Akuma, arcyx and Dung. Pardon me for sounding like I included you, Hikari. Inb4 someone says that there's no sound involved in forum text...

This spat has nothing to do with arcyx, akuma or dung (even though arguably its Akuma and Dung who caused the whole thing). If anything, besides you teh_ping, Arcyx is the only one so far who actually tried having a real, productive discussion.

Hikari, I'm really curious as to why you are in this conversation if you're not trying to resolve this matter?

[vermiliongrey]

When you say that your website is superior, doesn't that sound quite arrogant to you? It's all subjective in the first place. I can say that I like CE's blog best because I like bright colors or something here...it's all relative, subjected to personal preference.

Well, I did account for the fact some people like a brighter scheme, which is why I build two color schemes into the app.

But anyways, I don't feel like I sound arrogant because it's a fact. Now, what I just said may further reinforce your impression of arrogance; but at the end of the day, if we truly want to have a meaningful discussion we need to get over disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. like I said, Bakatsuki's environment was not designed for reading (the simple fact that there is no set paragraph width speaks volumes). Compared to the designed environment which has :

• -Constraint width that emulates the width of paperback novels
  -Paging
  -Theme support
  -Font-resizing
  -Dictionary/encyclopedia search
  -Automatically saving page position upon leaving and restoring upon revisiting
  -Chapter Table of contents (thought it's not apparent since MMY has no subdividers within a chapter)

That is why I say the designed environment is better and I think the average reader would agree. But even if we are to genuinely disagree on that point, the fact remains that the link was entirely optional and the bakatsuki link was right there if the reader's preferred Bakatsuki's standard environment.

Sure, there is nothing controversial about cleaning up an outdated page, but replacing Astrea's ID with your own ID while you're using a proxy is what everyone is being jumpy about. Because as you can see from your latest update before the 'crusade' against you began (seriously, guys. Why do you people think we put the 'project admin and project supervisor' roles there...?), Astrea's name was not included in the translators list http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... did=190227

I didn't use a proxy. Astrea was included in the translator's list; she was listed as "inactive" since she's currently inactive (you can tell by the fact she hasn't chimed in on the discussion yet).

I will offer the same deal to you if you wish to continue hosting here (or Astrea, for that matter).

You don't need to unlock anything, I'm requesting you return reading links and update chapters 1-3 to the latest version because the ones currently hosted are unedited.

Ultimate, this entire argument is stupid because we share a common interest of providing the best possible experience to a reader. Rather than waste time arguing over triviality, let's just reach a concession: I'll leave the layout to however you want, just update the chapters and return the reading links. I'm sure we agree that edited text and the option to another reading environment can only benefit readers.

[YoakeNoHikari]

But anyways, I don't feel like I sound arrogant because it's a fact.

I don't feel like I sound arrogant because it's a fact.

Avoid flammable and cyclic topics

Please be aware that political and religious discussions often cause very heated debates with little give or take on either side. They normally start out interesting and sensible but degrade rapidly. This produces the same arguments repeatedly for pages and induces many members to start "flaming" each other. Such topics will most likely be closed unless care is taken to keep the thread both interesting and polite. Similar discussions, concerning the illegality of fansubs and licensing debates, may also be treated in this way.

we need to get over

We don't need to do anything, you Mikuru Itsuki.

+1 for constructive criticism.

[zzhk]

I wasn't even aware this counts as a huge argument. After all, I'm not the one throwing personal insults of ignorance or repeatedly editing past posts.

vermiliongrey made some anonymous changes (in the wiki-unregistered sense), some people reversed them, I tried to explain why making anonymous edits and subjective claims is not very convincing to others.

Ultimately, I made two points: 1) establishing a little credibility would be desirable (as simple as registering a wiki account), and 2) "superior reading experience" is subjective.

Obviously I failed, since vermiliongrey remains adamant that his convictions are so obvious that they require no prior explanation.

For some unfathomable reason, vermiliongrey keeps strangely silent about why he refuses to register a wiki account. Even when that simple act would allow him to make changes to the page.

Just as vermiliongrey firmly believes that his authority over the project is obvious, to others it is obvious that someone who intends to commit long-term would register for the sake of doing things accountably.

I do concede that other idealistic claims made by vermiliongrey earlier in the thread (unrelated to the recent edits) were a little too inviting of criticism. Issues about translation quality are irrelevant to being on a wiki (a translator is welcome to polish their work before releasing them, whether on a wiki or not), and as pointed out in my first post (and repeated by Teh_Ping), pages can be locked. As for making claims about releasing less than a volume at a time is doing something "kinda pointless" and a "disfavour" to readers, I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one who would take issue with that claim. Especially when vermiliongrey himself is releasing things a chapter at a time. As for external links, I do concede that it is done by certain translators (nevertheless, it is still the exception rather than the norm), but those translators have prior established credibility. If vermiliongrey were a translator with previous documented contributions, no one would question him if he decides to move releases to his own site. Or, alternatively, if vermiliongrey had been releasing translations all along on his own site and decides to link Baka-Tsuki to them, that wouldn't be an issue either.

If simple scrutiny of vermiliongrey's ideals makes him feel victimized, then I apologize.

Sorry, vermiliongrey, if I hurt your feelings.

[vermiliongrey]

Ultimately, I made two points: 1) establishing a little credibility would be desirable (as simple as registering a wiki account), and 2) "superior reading experience" is subjective.

1. If you've been following the conversation, you'd realize we've already moved on from discussions about my credibility.
2. I've already explained the advantages of my "superior reading experience". However, even if you disagree, it doesn't change the fact that it was entirely optional should the readers prefer the bakatsuki environment. I see no reason why this should be a issue.

For some unfathomable reason, vermiliongrey keeps strangely silent about why he refuses to register a wiki account. Even when that simple act would allow him to make changes to the page.

The page is locked, which is the current discussion.

Sorry, vermiliongrey, if I hurt your feelings.

My feelings aren't hurt, but I am getting annoyed because I'm trying to explain myself, have a discussion and reach a conclusion while you are just listing points without reading/acknowledging anybody else's arguements.

[zzhk]

Conceptual objections to vermiliongrey's idealistic claims aside, I don't think I can state things any simpler.
Edits made by anonymous users on the wiki are open to questioning. (Note the keyword is "questioning," not "prohibition.")
Hence, Dung and Akuma were perfectly justified (well, maybe not the name-calling) based on evidence on the wiki.

I'm not saying that vermiliongrey cannot make any further changes. Of course, any other user is free to modify those changes as well.

The page is locked, which is the current discussion.

Locked to anonymous edits.

If you've been following the conversation, Teh_Ping and I have been trying to point out -- all you need to do is register an account on the wiki and you can edit to your heart's content.

It's that simple.

[Mystes]

How about this?

Vermillion could
1. Get a wiki account, in order for patrolling editors and supervisors to confirm he IS the one doing the edits, and not just a random anon or a troll (rarely)
2. Leave the previous translator's name listed in the active section, unless s/he hasn't been active for 3 months.
3. Leave the previous translations there. Since there is no guarantee that the translator will not suddenly drop out, it is better to leave it there. Once we have covered all them with the official translations, we could either archive them like some teasers, or just remove it like I did for my own Campione translation.
4. (Stop double-posting)

In exchange:

1. Vermillion should have his page linked, if he only updates one single chapter that Astrea didn't post by him/herself. That way, it means that either s/he gave you the translation or you did it by yourself. Either way, it'd be fine.
2. Vermillion can ask for his work, or Astrea if s/he ever shows up, to be locked. This would be OK.
3. Could add, instead of superior reading experience, something along the terms "blog post", "formatted edition", "non-wiki" or whatever. Or it is possible to add the reasons stated before to a part of his talk page and have it linked next to the blog link. (Ex. Chap 1. - *click here for better reading experience* - *click here to know why*

I might have forgotten other things that are up to you to decide. And btw, Hikari, you said you should watch your language.

[Teh_ping]

Alright guys, stay out of this. This is now between Vermillion and me. (I know some of you folks are here for the sideshow...)

Well, I did account for the fact some people like a brighter scheme, which is why I build two color schemes into the app.

But anyways, I don't feel like I sound arrogant because it's a fact.

Let me just point this out. Your opinion is not a fact. But leaving aside criticism, this is not the main point of the debate here. (Yes, I checked on your website.)

The page is locked, which is the current discussion.

Register an account (with no need for email): 10 seconds.

Me thinking through this issue: 10 hours

Me typing out this message: an hour

When everything is resolved: Timeless

You don't need to unlock anything, I'm requesting you return reading links and update chapters 1-3 to the latest version because the ones currently hosted are unedited.

I will need a note from Astrea then. It's a simple matter. First-hand information is more reliable than second-hand information. If I don't get the note, I will just leave things as it is. If Astrea leaves a note to me (Under the Miscellaneous thread), I will do it like how it's done for Oreimo

3. Leave the previous translations there. Since there is no guarantee that the translator will not suddenly drop out, it is better to leave it there. Once we have covered all them with the official translations, we could either archive them like some teasers, or just remove it like I did for my own Campione translation.

This is one thing I will abide by. No question. But we do lack the archive function here...

3. Could add, instead of superior reading experience, something along the terms "blog post", "formatted edition", "non-wiki" or whatever. Or it is possible to add the reasons stated before to a part of his talk page and have it linked next to the blog link. (Ex. Chap 1. - *click here for better reading experience* - *click here to know why*

Checked through the blog already. Basically, the blog has the function of setting the background as either black or white, or to increase or decrease the font size. (which to be fair, is what BT itself lacks because it is based on old wikipedia format). However, the reason why people come over to BT is not to check out the aesthetics. It is to read the translations provided (some grudgingly because there is no other source). Some will download the pdfs and epubs that may be provided if they are popular. There's also a new Andriod App being developed for BT by some of our readers as well, so I don't see why reading experience would be a big factor in this.

1. Vermillion should have his page linked, if he only updates one single chapter that Astrea didn't post by him/herself. That way, it means that either s/he gave you the translation or you did it by yourself. Either way, it'd be fine.

I plan to do it Oreimo style.

And btw, Hikari, you said you should watch your language.

She just typed the censors out for the lolz...

@Florza, that post of yours was very combustible...