Maria-sama ga Miteru

[Lunar Vitae]

AFAICT the options are supposed to be Yes/No/I don't know, and the "answer" is a circle around "I don't know." The formatting is pretty much how it is in the book.

Alright ... so it's not a statement about selecting an answer, but the result of. I can work with that.

other Vol 20 stuff

Wow, that's quite a bit, haha! Done.

No problem, and thanks for all your work. I appreciate the effort you're making to improve the overall quality, especially because I would be too lazy to do it myself.

It's my pleasure. I honestly find it fun to do so.

I think I might talk to a senior moderator about opening a new thread for our translation and editing discussion and moving relevant posts into it.

If you want, but there's not a lot of chatter in this thread otherwise

You're right, actually. Plus, there's an added benefit of exposure for our project

As the current and most-contributing translator, would you prefer the project follow your style to preserve the sense of flow and continuity across all the volumes? I would vote yes, as it would keep things smooth for the reader.

I'm going to be biased towards what I'm already doing, because that's easiest for me

It's been a while, but when I first started I tried to be consistent with the conventions used by the original translator in the first few volumes of the series, and my use of parentheses probably comes from there. It's also a carry-over from the Japanese text, because that's how the thoughts are written there - so they do need to stand out from the regular text and from speech in some fashion.

The only objection I have to italics for thoughts is that I've (semi-recently, so probably not in all volumes) been using italics with telephone conversations to denote the remote party, because otherwise it can get kind of confusing when it shouldn't be - the Japanese text uses different quotation marks, so there's never any intended confusion.

Either way, if you want to make things consistent across the series, then I would definitely recommend using what I'm doing as the baseline, just because it is the majority of the translated works.

Consider it done. I like the points you've made as well. Oh, I forgot to ask last time; which style convention do you conform to? I ask only to improve my stylistic and format edits. It doesn't make much sense to edit from one style into another, especially if they're not incorrect. Also, I notice spaces between punctuations on occasion - which would be considered incorrect under the conventions I follow - yet for readability on the wiki, they seem to work better. I guess what I'm asking is: what convention do you follow, and should we break a rule or two for aesthetics?

[Lunar Vitae]

^^ Disregard my previous question about breaking rules for aesthetics. There shall be no rule-breaking.

In celebration of Chapter 4 of Volume 26 being completed, here are the questions I've come up with!

Part 2
Disregard note 1. I was going to ask If we should put "strong, strong student" in translators notes, but after thinking about it for a few days, I think it works well there.

Note 2 Line 59: are they just books about prices, or is it a/are they book(s) titled Prices in the Edo Period?

Part 3
Note 1 Line 69: (Matsudaira Touko...?!) was originally written with a space between the ellipsis and terminating points. I thought this was an error at first, but after thinking about how it was written, I realized it could imply a different reaction. I rewrote it as you see, which is Chisato thinking Touko's name with suspended, surprised query. As it was originally written, (Matsudaira Touko ... ?!), Chisato notices Touko, has a short pause as if to imply she's thinking about this observation, then reacts with surprised query. To put this in layman's terms, it's the difference between "whaaaaaaaat?!" and "wait, ... what?!" if it helps any.


Now, I have the rest of Volume 20 Chapter 1 done, and only need these items looked at when you have a spare minute.

Parts 4-6
Note 1 Line 632: I feel like this could/should be written as a thought, and that would imply the entirety of Part 4 is Yoshino's perspective, not Yumi's. It's not a big deal to fix honorifics or other points needed if this is the case. Again, I need the original material to reference.

Note 2 Line 652: the original translation had this written two different ways, so I couldn't use it to help answer this. Is "interschool" being used as a description of the kendo tournament, or is the title of the competition Interschool Kendo Tournament?

Note 3 Line 744: was "brushing" a poor translation for the use of the broom, or was Noriko literally brushing the same spot on the floor as opposed to sweeping? I can see that in this case, brushing would actually be an appropriate description of her action.

Note 4 Line 836: I'm pretty sure Rei hasn't/wouldn't say that, particularly because this situation has never happened before. Similarly, I've never come across Konno writing "cute soeur" anywhere to describe anyone. I can only think that this was possibly narrative sarcasm that didn't come across when translated.

Note 5 Line 934: I have no idea what Sachiko is talking about when she says she doesn't want to "play cop." I suspect it's an idiom, but couldn't find anything after a quick search. Even taking cues from her actions, speech, and Yumi's interpretation (which we know is true), I can't really piece it together.

[enn_are]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

^^ Disregard my previous question about breaking rules for aesthetics. There shall be no rule-breaking.

I apologize for not responding to your previous comment - it just got put in the "too hard" basket and then I forgot about it I don't know what style (if any) I follow, and even then I doubt I'm following anything consistently. So I probably break all the rules at least some of the time according to my own personal sense of aesthetics.

Part 2
Disregard note 1. I was going to ask If we should put "strong, strong student" in translators notes, but after thinking about it for a few days, I think it works well there.

In general, I've moved away from using translator's notes. If something doesn't make sense without a note, I'd rather work that note into the text even if it makes the text a bit more cumbersome. Similarly for any information that would be assumed knowledge by a Japanese reader.

Note 2 Line 59: are they just books about prices, or is it a/are they book(s) titled Prices in the Edo Period?

It's not the title of a specific book, it's used in a fairly casual manner to describe the sort of subjects that the books in that area cover.

Part 3
Note 1 Line 69: (Matsudaira Touko...?!) was originally written with a space between the ellipsis and terminating points. I thought this was an error at first, but after thinking about how it was written, I realized it could imply a different reaction. I rewrote it as you see, which is Chisato thinking Touko's name with suspended, surprised query. As it was originally written, (Matsudaira Touko ... ?!), Chisato notices Touko, has a short pause as if to imply she's thinking about this observation, then reacts with surprised query. To put this in layman's terms, it's the difference between "whaaaaaaaat?!" and "wait, ... what?!" if it helps any.

I'm not really sure what the correct answer for this one is - it's not clear whether Chisato's surprised because it's Touko, or because of the implications of Touko looking in there. I interpreted it more as the latter, mainly because I didn't think Chisato would have been close enough to Touko to be surprised by Touko participating in the treasure hunt - but that could be wrong.

Now, I have the rest of Volume 20 Chapter 1 done, and only need these items looked at when you have a spare minute.

Parts 4-6
Note 1 Line 632: I feel like this could/should be written as a thought, and that would imply the entirety of Part 4 is Yoshino's perspective, not Yumi's. It's not a big deal to fix honorifics or other points needed if this is the case. Again, I need the original material to reference.

Part 4 is written from Yoshino's perspective - and I just realized I incorrectly added the honorific to Yoshino in my translation of Part 4 earlier, so sorry about that.

The translation here is wrong. The line isn't complaining about Noriko, it's a reflection on the topic they're talking about - but it's not a direct thought. It's closer to:

It'd be troublesome to be handed someone and told, "Here, this is your petit soeur." It wasn't like getting a mass-produced doll as a gift.

Note 2 Line 652: the original translation had this written two different ways, so I couldn't use it to help answer this. Is "interschool" being used as a description of the kendo tournament, or is the title of the competition Interschool Kendo Tournament?

AFAICT it's being used to describe it, rather than as a title, so your edits are correct.

Note 3 Line 744: was "brushing" a poor translation for the use of the broom, or was Noriko literally brushing the same spot on the floor as opposed to sweeping? I can see that in this case, brushing would actually be an appropriate description of her action.

I'd translate it as sweeping - it's the normal verb to use with a broom, so it wouldn't by itself indicate anything out of the ordinary.

Note 4 Line 836: I'm pretty sure Rei hasn't/wouldn't say that, particularly because this situation has never happened before. Similarly, I've never come across Konno writing "cute soeur" anywhere to describe anyone. I can only think that this was possibly narrative sarcasm that didn't come across when translated.

It wasn't meant as sarcasm, but in context it's closer to "darling" or "adorable" than "cute." The rest of the sentence is sort of mangled too, a closer translation might be:

Since it was related to her darling Yoshino-san's petit soeur, Rei-sama wasn't about to say, "Do whatever you want, I'll leave it up to you."

Note 5 Line 934: I have no idea what Sachiko is talking about when she says she doesn't want to "play cop." I suspect it's an idiom, but couldn't find anything after a quick search. Even taking cues from her actions, speech, and Yumi's interpretation (which we know is true), I can't really piece it together.

Yeah, I don't know where they got that "play cop" from either. The actual line is along the lines of:

"Having said that, Rei, I don't intend to restrict your actions. If you want to join in then you're free to do so."


While I was looking at that chapter, I spotted another note from the original translators in this passage:


"That's why it's hard to understand this public/private thing."

Of course. Yumi put her explanation in terms of human perception.

"So you're asking me to hold a tea party at my house, and to invite potential sœur candidates there?"

When Yumi thought about Yoshino-san's proposal, she realized that she was fairly comfortable with doing the audition publicly.

"If you do a Rokomi, then okay. I understand." <!--(R: I have no idea what Rokomi means: "Rokomi nara OK, to. Nan to Naku Wakatta." E: I'm thinking its a made up English-Japanese word for "loco-meeting.")-->

"Yoshino-san, you can't mean —"


That line, and some of the surrounding context, is wrong. The word they're discussing is kuchi-komi, not ro-komi, and it's actually said by Yoshino because they missed Yumi's line. I've re-translated the passage as follows:


"That's why I'm not sure about making it "official.""

Indeed. Yumi-san was talking about putting human instincts into words.

"So, then, what if I decided to hold a tea party at my house? And I said that people who wanted to be my petit soeur were welcome to attend? Would you be in that? Or not?"

"I guess I'd be in? But if you put up posters around school, or advertised in the school newspaper, that would be no good, I think."

Taking this into consideration, Yumi-san's objections may be along the lines of, "Don't do private things in public."

"So if it spread by word-of-mouth, that would be okay. I kind of get what you're saying."

"Yoshino-san, you can't mean —"


If you could update this section you're making the other changes, that'd be great

[Lunar Vitae]

 Hey enn_are,

It's been a very long time since I last checked in with you, so I thought I should do so. I usually only post when I have something to report, but four months is pushing it. In this post, I will update you on some editorial things I've decided on and would like your feedback, if any, and some questions on what actions you would prefer going forward for certain instances that I will describe below.



First, I have decided to settle into a style that follows novels published in North America, governed by the Chicago Manual of Style. This is supplemented by style guides and reference books that deal with the CMS as a whole and creative writing specifically. I have modified rules concerning the typesetting of ellipses, as well as em dashes, for this project. The rule regarding the em dash is purely aesthetic.

When a complete sentence trails off without continuation, dialog or narration, the four-dot ellipsis is used without a space between the last word and the ellipsis.

• "They spent that night here. . . ."
• They walked down the path together, but something felt off. . . .

When a narrative sentence is not complete, or dialog trails off and is not the end of a sentence, OR dialog that is an incomplete sentence, a spaced three-dot ellipsis is used.

• "They spent that night here . . ." Tim said aloud, mindlessly.
• At that moment . . .
• "They were the ones . . ."

When other terminal punctuation is used in conjunction with the ellipsis, conventional rules apply. Examples:

• "They spent that night here. . . ?"
• "They were the ones. . . !"

Em dashes will have a space between both words it separates because it is much easier on the eyes when reading from the wiki, app, ePuB, and PDF. The exception to this is when a word is interrupted, in which case the conventional rule is followed (no space).

Occasionally, I might replace a hyphen with an en dash, but this has happened maybe twice, and is only for aesthetics.



Second, I need your opinion on how I should handle some issues. I've taken a small break from Volume 20 Chapter 2 because it has some pretty ugly patches of narration and logical dialog. I have several "blocks" of text that are rough at best, but readable due in part because I know the story. I could attempt to rewrite these spots, but I would need your permission to do so, I think. Personally, I'd like to take a shot at it, rather than flooding you with what would essentially be a request to retranslate an entire chapter. Or more, depending on how the rest of the volume goes. This should be considered as me asking for permission to rewrite other sections of previously translated material that is notably difficult to comprehend, if I feel capable.

Spoiler! :

If only everyone could translate as wonderfully as you and Seki.

Additionally, I've noticed that the text seems to flow line by line by line, regardless of dialog/narration writing. For this, I'd like your opinion on my wish to structure the text as it would appear in a printed novel. I've started doing this in the last chapter or so (Vol 26 Ch 5-6), and I feel it makes it a little more . . . prestigious, and much easier to punctuate. A couple of examples:

• "Please state your grade, class, and name."
  
  Mami-san asked, even though she knew all that without having to ask.

Becomes:

• "Please state your grade, class, and name," Mami-san asked, even though she knew all that without having to ask.

And:

• "Say, what's all this about?"
  
  Sachiko-sama asked. Unlike Yumi, who knew the card's hiding spot, [. . .]

Becomes:

• "Say, what's all this about?" Sachiko-sama asked. Unlike Yumi, who knew the card's hiding spot, [. . .]

I know it seems like a small adjustment, but to me, it makes a lot of difference both visually and in readability. This is further demonstrated when reading with the app.


Lastly, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask to be listed as an official editor for the project on the main project page. The rules state I cannot add myself, and I'd love to have a seal of approval rather than an unceremonious self-promotion.

So, that pretty much sums up what I've been working on and thinking about. I'd like to hear your opinions about the style if you have any, what your decision is regarding me fixing spots I think I can, and anything else you might have in mind or on hand. Also, I know that you know, but I want to stress that in no way am I holding you, or asking you, to follow these stylistic rules. That is my job. If you're comfortable and/or happy with this format, just translate and write however you wish; I'll structure it.

[enn_are]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

Congratulations! You've been officially promoted to Active Editor <Insert various Emoji that the board can't handle here>

But seriously, you've been doing a great job of improving the readability of this series and I hope you continue to do so.

To address your other points in order:

* Your proposed modified-CMS sounds fine to me. I don't really know much about the different writing styles and have just been doing whatever seems good to me, or whatever autoformatting Word applies, so following a defined standard would be a definite step up.

* You have my permission to rewrite sections that are difficult to comprehend (for whatever that's worth ). I'm also more than happy to help out with translation checking of anything you do rewrite, if you're concerned about that.

* I had noticed some edits you'd made around formatting dialog to be more like a novel, but I hadn't commented because I was in favor of them. So, since it's been brought up, I'd just like to formally state that I'm in favor of it. I may not adopt that style myself just because following the Japanese layout makes it easier to track where on the page I'm up to, but I think it's definitely a better look for the finished translation.

One thing I did want to ask you was around the capitalization of "onee-sama." I'm wondering what the rationale was behind that? Personally, I consider it more akin to a familial relationship (eg. "mom") than anything else, but I'm interested in hearing your opinion.

[Lunar Vitae]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

Congratulations! You've been officially promoted to Active Editor <Insert various Emoji that the board can't handle here>

But seriously, you've been doing a great job of improving the readability of this series and I hope you continue to do so.

Thank you! It's been a pleasure thus far.

To address your other points in order:

* Your proposed modified-CMS sounds fine to me. I don't really know much about the different writing styles and have just been doing whatever seems good to me, or whatever autoformatting Word applies, so following a defined standard would be a definite step up.

* You have my permission to rewrite sections that are difficult to comprehend (for whatever that's worth ). I'm also more than happy to help out with translation checking of anything you do rewrite, if you're concerned about that.

* I had noticed some edits you'd made around formatting dialog to be more like a novel, but I hadn't commented because I was in favor of them. So, since it's been brought up, I'd just like to formally state that I'm in favor of it. I may not adopt that style myself just because following the Japanese layout makes it easier to track where on the page I'm up to, but I think it's definitely a better look for the finished translation.

Excellent, I shall continue editing as such. I will also tackle what sections I can, and I am relieved to hear that you're up to translation questions. I really did feel like I'd be bothering you with them . And yes, maybe little worried about misinterpreting speech. With a "thumbs-up" for bringing the lined text into paragraphs, I'll be more consistent in doing so. Rest assured that I know when a line break for effect should occur. Oh, if there is a definitive line separation that needs to stay in place, please let me know with a hidden note.

One thing I did want to ask you was around the capitalization of "onee-sama." I'm wondering what the rationale was behind that? Personally, I consider it more akin to a familial relationship (eg. "mom") than anything else, but I'm interested in hearing your opinion.

Ah yes, I sort-of forgot to bring this up, yet expected this question. My argument is that "onee-sama," when referring to a specific individual, is a proper name and thus capitalized: "This is my Onee-sama." Similar to the class and club names being titles. "Onee-sama" used in general, "Does she have an onee-sama?" would be lowercase. I feel that since a student's onee-sama isn't actual family, but a senior student in a close, defined, purposeful relationship, the term onee-sama becomes a title addressing that person. If Konno doesn't delineate between the two, or if that feeling isn't gleaned from the original text, OR if she actually writes onee-sama as if she were an older sister, I could revert what I've done the next pass I make. Especially regarding that last point: I absolutely don't want to change what she intended to write. I'm not super attached to the idea, so if your interpretation doesn't have specific significance applied to the term, I don't mind following suit.

At some point, I think I would like to rewrite the synopsis on the main page. It is rather lengthy and spoils the first volume. While looking over the page itself could give someone an idea of what happens, having it written out before they even begin is anticlimactic to some extent. Additionally, should there be information regarding a spinoff series? I think it detracts from what the page is supposed to be about.

[Lunar Vitae]

The more I read and look at the text, "onee-sama" lowercased looks better with your interpretation in mind. Lowercase it is.

I wanted to bring these up before we get too far along, since the other volume stuff can wait.

Chapter 6 Part 3, Line 168; I left a note in the wiki, but I changed

"Naturally, I'll graciously concede defeat."

 On hearing that.

  "Really?"

Sachiko-sama's retinue were split into two different groups.

to

"Naturally, I'll graciously concede defeat."

"Really?"

On hearing that, Sachiko-sama's retinue were split into two different groups.

The change made sense to me so I kept going. After thinking on it though, I realized this might have been a point of intended reader suspense. Such as, after reading Sachiko's line, the reader is drawn to attention as the other student would have been. Is that feeling conveyed in the original?

Chapter 7 Part 1 Line 23:
I see we had the same verbiage at one point, haha! This prompted me to ask, did Yoshino pull out that paper to draw on, or was that map already drawn on the paper she pulled out?

[enn_are]

Hi Lunar Vitae,

Just to expand on my earlier post a bit, onee-sama has a very strong familial connotation since it literally means older sister - although it's a more formal term than what kids would typically use. There's no real equivalent in English for siblings, since we just call our sister by her name, but (IMO) it shares a lot in common with "mom" in how it's used (eg. X's onee-sama in description, X just saying, onee-sama when talking about their own), there's an implied power disparity, and even in the books they talk about an onee-sama's onee-sama as being a grandmother.

For Chapter 6, Part 3, Line 168, I don't think I'm fluent enough in Japanese to answer your question. I guess it draws attention, but the effect is minor at best. My only concern about the changed ordering is whether the "that" in On hearing that will be read as referring to the "Really?" instead of Sachiko's statement.

For the maps, I initially read it as them being sketched as they went along, but a later section clarified this so I went back and edited my original translation. On reflection, making the maps ahead of time makes a lot more sense, both in terms of speed and accuracy.

[Lunar Vitae]

Now, see, that's a much stronger argument for lowercase. In fact, I just found a section in my style book that covers the capitalization of relationship terms. In our case, onee-sama would not be capitalized at all because the students are not biological or legal sisters. I have it in my notes to get back to those chapters and revert them.

Ch6 P3 L168
It shouldn't be read that way, but I understand the concern. Perhaps if I wrote it as:

"Naturally, I'll graciously concede defeat."

"Really?" the students around Sachiko-sama exclaimed. On hearing that, her retinue were split into two different groups.

This should read easier, I think.


For the map, after looking at our edits and reading the context of the section, my vote is that Yoshino pulled out the paper to sketch the building's layout for Shimako and Yumi. Yoshino began talking ahead of the others, and after realizing this, sketched what she was talking about. That said, you mentioned a later part addresses this? I haven't seen it yet, I don't think.

[[-]]

I'm pretty late here but.

NR! Congratulations on finishing the translation of voume 26!

Your dedication to translating Marimite is remarkable; I'm always impressed with people who can slowly but steadily contribute to projects over the course of many years. I'm pretty confident you've translated more of it than any other translator who has worked on the project in the past. There are many other people who apprieciate your hard work, so let me thank you on the behalf of all of them. Again, thank you.

Now that 26 is translated you bridged the gap and everything between 13 and 33 - those two included - is translated. Unfortunately some of the translations are no longer hosted on BakaTsuki but once something gets posted online somewhere it tends to be difficult to ever get rid of it entirely. Case in point, look around a bit and you'll find the deleted translations.

I used to hope that despite how niche and long Marimite is it'll get fully translated eventually. Lately I've stopped hoping it'll happen. Thanks to you I started to actually believe it.

[enn_are]

Thank-you for your kind words [-], it's always heartening to hear from people that are enjoying what I'm doing. I know there's still a small group of people out there reading, as I see the same names pop up in the forums or discussion pages, and in the edit logs, and I appreciate that, even if I don't always respond (or take way too long to respond, like in this case).

It's a shame that some of the earlier translators chose to remove their works, but as you say it's hard to remove things from the internet entirely. I know the PDFs used to be available from other, less reputable sources, so I'm sure they're still out there somewhere

When I first started, I half expected machine translation to be perfected (or at least better than me) before I got too far along, which would have greatly sped up the whole process. Given how much I've slowed down this last year, it's still entirely possible, although perhaps not as likely. Either way, I'm sure we'll see the entire series translated one day.

[ziggr]

Volume 17 Ciao Sorella done.

(Actually, done again, replacing a deleted translation)

Rolling forward to Volume 18 An Ordinary Day.

I'll keep plugging away at replacements for deleted translations, staying out of enn_are's path. I would hate to prevent a good enn_are translation, with one of my ungood machine-assisted translations.

[ziggr]

Reader Yumi asked:

Why did you pick `Rose Manor` instead of `Rose Mansion` which the rest of the volumes/anime seem to use?

I chose "Rose Manor" instead of "Rose Mansion" for no particular reason. I didn't even realize that all the other translation used "mansion", and I've read them all (many of them, twice!). Funny how the brain just paves over things like that.

In my case, I read it as "bara no yakata". Like "gokigenyou" and "onee-sama", it's just one of those words that my brain leaves in Japanese and I don't even think of it in english.

Feel free to do a global search-and-replace to "Rose Mansion" if you wish, and I'll update my own OmegaT glossary to match for future translations.

--Z

[Lunar Vitae]

Thank you again for joining the team, ziggr!

I haven't had a chance to get to the newly submitted work for editing yet, so I apologize. Changing "Manor" to "Mansion" would be something on my list, so I'd say don't fret too much about it (like going back and changing each entry) .


And while we're here, I'd like to ask you both, enn_are and ziggr, two things:

First, I'd like your permission to use your translations as a raw for translating Maria-sama ga Miteru into French. I've decided to pick up learning the language again, and what better way to test and develop skills than translating? I'm quite a ways from doing so, but I figured I should ask now in case either one of you were unavailable when the time came.

Second, I would like to assume the position and responsibilities of Project Manager. For this, I would need your approvals, or at least a "sure, why not?"

Hope to hear from you guys soon, and I promise I'll get to those new chapters (and volume) very soon!

[ziggr]

First, I'd like your permission to use your translations as a raw for translating Maria-sama ga Miteru into French.

Yes. Fine by me.

Second, I would like to assume the position and responsibilities of Project Manager.

Also yes, fine by me.