Editing Talk:Format guideline

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first? 

Which things should be established first?

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Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.


==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass".  Psieye toned it down to "awesome".  Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)


Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)



I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is: 

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ===
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.)  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"?  Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."?  It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean.  The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think?  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles.  I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)



I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"...  IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is.  The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers.  Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible.  When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view.  Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel.  --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!"  It's not a phrase you hear often or at all.  It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up.  --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use.  I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later.  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==


==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one. 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)


== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

==== Original text ====

'''Page 161''' 

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

'''Page 162'''

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。


==== The Blue Bird of Happiness ====

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet and playwright Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature. 

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal. 

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

==== Haruhi's downer, and other minor points ====

1) Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the text: ハルヒのダウナー

2) ''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English. 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:16, 21 April 2006 (PDT)


----

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations.  Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of.  However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out.  For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style.  The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not.  I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added.  What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line.  In the current format, such lines are separated by a space.  I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed.  Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.  

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this 
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.


'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)


There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High."  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)