Editing Talk:Date A Live (section)

== "Bitterly" ==

Does anyone mind if I just go an make a mass-replace of all appropriate instances of "smiled bitterly" being used? "Bitterly" implies "with resentment", "spiteful", "irate", stuff like that—completely out of place with the relatively well-natured cast, to the point it's seriously starting to grate at me.

Potential substitutes are smiled "dimly", "feebly", "weakly", "helplessly", or "wanly". -[[User:AKAAkira|Akira]] ([[User talk:AKAAkira|talk]]) 18:59, 15 July 2013 (CDT)

I think you have to consider it on a case by case basis since 'smiled bitterly' could refer to how they feel about the situation. The lowest degree of 'bitterness' could be 'feeling troubled' and that doesn't necessarily contrast with a smile.
[[User:AkaSora|AkaSora]] ([[User talk:AkaSora|talk]]) 19:57, 15 July 2013 (CDT)

::LATER EDIT (somehow missed reading the second sentence the first time...):
::Yeah, the lowest form of "bitter" could be "feeling troubled" - but for me at least, the connotation of the word completely overpower what other meanings it could have (there's a reason the entry for "bitter" in my Oxford Canadian Thesaurus include "sharp", "acid", "resentful", "begrudging", "painful", "cruel", "angry"...)
::There's really no need to write prose that requires the reader to maintain one layer of active interpretation to understand correctly. -[[User:AKAAkira|Akira]] ([[User talk:AKAAkira|talk]]) 00:39, 5 August 2013 (CDT)

:That's why I said "all appropriate instances".

:Still, just ''look'' at these cases:
<div style="max-width: 55em;margin: 0 auto;">
"Oooh!"

When Shidou just finished his sentence, Tohka's eyes started to sparkle. After putting all of her weight onto the yoga ball, she made use of its rebound to stand up.

"Is, is there any pink colored noodles in there?"

"There are. And there are green ones too."

"Wh, what did you say......"

Tohka showed an expression as though she was a clergy who had received a message from the heavens, her two hands trembled.

What an emotional person. Shidou <span style="background-color:yellow">gave a bitter smile</span> as he continued.
----
"Go, good evening......Shidou-san, Tohka-san."

"Aha— long time no see Shidou-kun. How have you been doing? Have you constantly spend sleepless nights by yourself thinking about Yoshino?"

After Yoshino respectfully lowered her head, the puppet that was worn on her left hand——[Yoshinon] opened its mouth and gave out a cheerful voice.

Due to the difference in their tone and personalities, Shidou couldn't help <span style="background-color:yellow">but smile bitterly</span>.
----
Looking at her miserable state, Kotori couldn't help but shrug.

"Alright alright, we'll let Reine bring Tohka there. There's no problem as long as you two move separately right?"

As Kotori finished speaking, Tohka's expression brightened in an instant.

"! Uu......Well, if you all want me to go that badly, then I guess there's no helping it!"

Looking at Tohka, Shidou and Yoshino looked at each other <span style="background-color:yellow">and smiled bitterly</span>. 
</div>
:Three cases. All from just the ''first section'' of Date A Live Encore:Chapter 3. Not even a quarter through. That ain't a good sign for the rest of the chapters. And here, however you look at it, "bitterly" is just way too strong. -[[User:AKAAkira|Akira]] ([[User talk:AKAAkira|talk]]) 20:36, 15 July 2013 (CDT)

Such changes has to be made with reference to the Japanese source. --[[User:KuroiHikari|KuroiHikari]] ([[User_talk:KuroiHikari|Talk]] | ) 22:10, 15 July 2013 (CDT)

:(Took me this long to get my hands on a copy, but...)
:The ''kanji'' given for all three instances are "''kushou''" (苦笑). I can at least concede that, of the two sources I checked, Wiktionary doesn't have that term at all and Google Translate did indeed give "bitter smile" as its translation.
:''On the other hand'', I would argue that the context shown would invalidate, or at least make less preferable, using "bitter smile" or a variant thereof every time in every case "kushou" was used, particularly when there are other suitable words to work with (the related reasoning were added a bit above with this edit). It might also be a case of "lost in translation"; "''kushou''", when translated directly, probably do mean a "bitter smile" but this could culturally have a different meaning altogether in Japanese when compared to English. Finally, checking out 苦 by itself on Wiktionary, it could also mean "hardship" or "suffering", so "''kushou''" may very well could be interpreted as "the smile of one long-suffering the antics of a hyperactive teenage-seeming girl", in which case "wan smile" or "weak smile" would be just as appropriate.
:And generally it's bad writing to use the same term for the same thing over and over again, anyway. English likes synonyms. At the very least ''some'' of those "bitter smiles" are due for a change, in the name of creative narration. -[[User:AKAAkira|Akira]] ([[User talk:AKAAkira|talk]]) 00:39, 5 August 2013 (CDT)


"苦笑", although not being in Japanese vocabulary, is actually an existing word in Chinese (-it is pronounced as "Kǔ　xiào"). There were times when I encountered these words (only in Chinese in my experience) and I couldn't think of any decent English words to match the meaning.
Would it be fine if I apply "smile wryly" or "let out a wry smile" for it? There are some more situations for "苦笑" but I couldn't think of more for now. (Currently working only on Chapter 4.)

:I'd say "wry" works. Actually, now that I'm mentally substituting it to the excerpts above, suddenly I feel it works better than most of the suggestions I gave.
:You can probably use its synonym "dry" too, though I think "wry" works better. -[[User:AKAAkira|Akira]] ([[User talk:AKAAkira|talk]]) 22:41, 13 August 2013 (CDT)

A Chinese dictionary here.

The best way to convey "苦笑" is actually "wry smile" or "smiled wryly". Check the context as "bitter smile" sounds correct in a way. Just my personal idea, but it's best to have synonyms... --[[User:KanzakiAria|KanzakiAria]] ([[User talk:KanzakiAria|talk]]) 00:55, 14 August 2013 (CDT)

Unfortunately I'm not a Chinese dictionary, but this should be pointed out nonetheless. At least when it comes to the Chinese, 苦笑 isn't quite that straightforward. Literally, 苦 is "bitter" and 笑 is "laugh", hence "bitter laugh". In practice, however, its meaning must be taken from the context. It ''can'' mean a "bitter laugh", it can mean a "wry smile", and it can even mean a "strained" or "forced" smile (i.e. X forced a smile). As with anything, make your brain, and not just your dictionary, a part of the translation process, and you'll see wonderful results. [[User:Hiyono|Hiyono]] ([[User talk:Hiyono|talk]]) 01:22, 14 August 2013 (CDT)

"Laughed bitterly"... "Laughed wryly"...

Know when to use which. The context should state what the person is feeling. For example, in an awkward situation, it would usually be "forced a smile" or something. --[[User:KanzakiAria|KanzakiAria]] ([[User talk:KanzakiAria|talk]]) 03:33, 14 August 2013 (CDT)