Editing Talk:Rakuin no Monshou:Volume1 Chapter5 (section)

== Suggested revisions and discussion of style ==

Here are the sentences I would suggest for further revision.  Also, the first two items are examples of matters of general style that I'd like to get your opinions/instructions on.  And as always, thanks for the translations, --[[User:Cthaeh|Cthaeh]] ([[User talk:Cthaeh|talk]]) 21:07, 22 September 2013 (CDT)

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'''I'm going to pull these first two out of the proper order to use them as examples to discuss issues of style:'''

The cavalry and the dragonriders atop the small-sized dragons guarded all directions, while in the centre, surrounded by the soldiers on foot, the imperial and royal family members moved in coaches.
:*I already deleted a comma after cavalry, but I would also propose rearranging the last half to "while the imperial and royal family members moved in coaches at the centre, surrounded by the soldiers on foot."
:*This proposed revision is an example of something that I have occasionally edited without bringing up for discussion when I could do so with minimal changes.  But since it's technically an issue of style, I wanted to bring it up for discussion before I do so anymore.  The stylistic change I've made is rearranging the pieces of the sentence such that the sentence has a more linear structure that doesn't require the use of as many commas.  The sentence is technically correct, so such changes are actually a matter of style.  But I think sentences that are highly fragmented by commas tend to be unnatural sounding in English.  I was under the impression that sentence fragmentation in general is often a remnant of the structure of the sentence in Japanese, but I suppose it could be the intentional style for this project.  So my question are: Is the sentence fragmentation an intentional style?  And if not, is it alright if I continue to defragment sentences without posting them on the discussion page when I can do so with minimal changes? (Apologies for doing it previously without asking)
::* I do not mind you changing this. When I'm translating I'm in the Japanese-kind of mode and although I do change the sentence structure myself at times, it isn't always the best option; I tend to keep the Japanese clauses intact (I mainly change the Japanese Subject-Object-Verb style to the English Subject-Verb-Object) which probably reflects to this fragmented style and only when I find the sentence to confusing do I further change the flow. However, if can improve sentence structure/flow I'll only encourage you to do so. So far I agree with your revisions, so I don't mind giving you clearance and let you keep this up. Besides, if I really don't like a change I'll just change it back and open it up for discussion. Thanks for your work. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 05:59, 25 September 2013 (CDT)

Anyhow, the vehicles that have the ability to suspend above ground and go through the sky on this planet, like the airships and air frigates, aren’t science, but an inheritance from the magic that Zodias gave birth to.
:*This is another question of style, but in this case I think I've left it as is in my edits thus far.  In this sentence, general information is given in the present tense, even though most of the narration is in the past tense.  Tense use is always a matter of style, and if I'm not mistaken becomes more complicated in translation because the style of narration and tenses in the original often does not match "typical" usage in English.  My impression of the most common English style for third person narration, which is mostly what is used in this project, is that everything is in the past tense.  For first person and second person narration, where the narrator is a person in the world of the story, it is more common to use the present tense for general descriptions of the world such as this example.  However, the tense use and narration is always a matter of style, and it is not really wrong to do it any particular way.  So just to get it explicit guideline for the future, what are your thoughts on the tense for this and other similar general descriptions?  I favor past tense for everything, but from the fact you've used present tense so far, I'd guess you prefer it be present but I'm just double checking.
::* Well I actually had a similar discussion with someone else (I believe LoliDragon) about this who was in favour of using present tense in cases like this. Having read more Japanese books lately, I've noted t is also common practice there to write general information in present tense, mainly because it is still true for the present. Personally, I don't really know where to go with this. In earlier chapters I've tried to keep everything strict past tense to avoid confusion, and I've experimented a bit in this chapter with a combination of present and past in the part where the history of 'magic' is explained, what I assume is general knowledge in this world, but I have to admit I do not have a clear idea on when it's actually better to do so. So, I suppose I will go back to my initial statement and keep everything in past tense - mainly because this is a fictional tale in a fictional land, so I have no idea what kind of information is generally understood in that world and there doesn't seem to be a 'known' narrator (in a story with first-person perspective for example, it seems less strange to use present tense in certain cases). Besides, I think that avoiding confusion for the reader is an important task for translators and editors, and keeping everything in past tense seems best. I will probably mess up sometimes, and write something in present tense, so feel free to make changes when and where necessary. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 05:59, 25 September 2013 (CDT)

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'''Back to normal revision suggestions:'''

Ryucown cut off the heads of all the messengers, not even depending on the counsel from his own home country Garbera.
:*The "not even depending on the counsel" seems a little awkward to me.  I would replace it with "disregarding even the counsel" or "rejecting even the counsel".
::* Changed it to 'disregarding'

And that was the ulterior motive Fedom had. Originally, the written letters had urged him to return to his homeland, Birac. Simon alone had been assigned to be the prince’s support. However, Simon knew the prince’s nature very well. So, because he suspected there were concerns about the prince being a fake at the current campaign, other ‘support’ was necessary.
:*In the last sentence, I believe the "he suspected" refers to Fedom, but I was a little confused at first because the previous two sentences had Simon as the subject, so my first though was that "he suspected" was referring to Simon.  So possibly replacing "he" with "Fedom" would clarify it (if it's not just me that gets confused).
::* I've rewritten it.

Although I do hope you’re not doing that to bear the shock received from what happened at Seirin Valley.
:*I don't think it's a big issue, but "cope with the shock" might be more natural phrasing than "bear the shock"
::* Changed it.

she was the image of a beautiful girl in her puberty and whatnot
:*I feel like "whatnot" is very informal word choice that doesn't match the rest of the translation.  I don't really know what to replace it with though.
::* It's a bit confusing, I might have translated it wrong. Looking back it could also mean that she's a beautiful girl that 'looks to be in puberty but is not, and if so, she's not yet an adult either'. Not sure how to word that yet, but I'll make an attempt.

With his own country still negotiating with the Garberan side, no more than coming to conclude matters, there was nothing he could decide on without permission.
:*I wasn't really sure what "no more than coming to conclude matters" meant.
::* I've translated this a bit too literally. The word 以上 'more than' is used, but it could also mean 'beyond', as in 'beyond not coming to  conclude matters'. Translating it more freely, I get: "With his own country still negotiating with the Garberran side, not even coming close to conclude matters, there was nothing he could decide here without permission."

But foremost, Orba’s anger was at the nobles who controlled lives and destinies as they wished, so that they truly were not treated the same as the people surrounding them.
:*The last half "so that they truly were ..." seemed a little out of place.  There's nothing wrong, so maybe there's nothing to change, it just felt like they didn't link well together.
:: * I can only think of splitting the sentence: "...wished. Because of them, they truly were not treated the same as the people surrounding them." It's further from the original, but flows better.

They looked left and right in confusion at the prince’s sudden appearance, which he thought wouldn’t be so strange if Kain hadn’t been working on an escape plan for the night, and he laughed inwardly.
:*The sentence is constructed fine, I was just a little confused by the logic.  The normal behavior is to look left and right in confusion, which they did.  But then why is that behavior considered strange when Kain is working on an escape plan (which is how I interpreted the middle part of the sentence)?
::* You're right, there's a double negative here that complicated matters (Didn't think wouldn't be strange if Kain wasn't...). And カインなら 'if Kain...' can also be translated to 'considering Kain...'. I'll remove the overuse of negative tense to simplify matters. Changed it to: "[...], which he thought wasn't so strange considering Kain was working on an escape plan for the night..." so make it less confusing. 

Fedom’s anger, seemingly about to faint anytime soon, also directing his glare at Dinn, and Orba was about to dismiss the grand noble from his room.
:*I didn't quite understand what "seemingly about to faint" meant.  In addition, how the sentence is currently constructed has "Fedom's anger" as the subject performing the action "directing his glare", for which "Fedom" would be a better subject.
::* It literally says he's so angry that he 'seems about to faint/swoon anytime soon'. You're right about the subject. Changed it to: "Fedom, who seemed about to faint from anger anytime soon, also directed his glare at Dinn, and Orba..."

Placing gladiators directly under his control as soldiers for instance, although looking back, he couldn’t honestly say that he’d saved from the nobles.
:*I think it's missing a "them" in "he'd saved ___ from the nobles".  But I wasn't sure enough of the meaning to do it myself.  I was assuming that it meant although he saved the gladiators from the town's lord, but since he drafted them into the imperial guard, he wasn't really saving them.
::* You're absolutely right. Changed it.

It was decided that they attack the fortress on both sides, where Mephius would advance from the west, and Garbera from the right.
:*This could easily be perfectly right as is, but Mephius advances from a cardinal direction (west), but Garbera comes from the "right" which undescriptive without a frame of reference.  But that could just be how it is in the original.
::* No, I actually don't know why I wrote 'right', because the above sentence would imply that Garbera would attack from the east (if you consider the west to be 'left') but Garbera's actually attacking from the south.

''You should just leave everything to Oubary after this. Well, although at most, getting a ‘fair achievement for the prince’ will rattle my brains a little. I think it will be a difficult battle not to lose a single soldier.''
:*The middle sentence "rattle my brains" seems like it might have a more natural phrasing, but I can't think of one at the moment.  The last sentence phrasing seems a little awkward.  I interpreted it as something like "I think it will be difficult to get through this battle without losing any soldiers".  The structure of the current sentence makes the following interpretation come to mind, "I think it won't be too difficult to go through this battle without losing a single soldier", but that obvious has a completely different meaning from the actual sentence.
::* He thinks it's going to be 'a difficult battle/struggle' if he has to win without losing any soldiers; I forgot to translate the 'has to win' part.. Also, with 'rattle my brains' I meant that Oubary has to think hard on it for a while. Is 'rack my brains' better?
:::*I do think "rack my brains" would be better.  I actually misinterpreted the meaning as it is currently.  I thought it was saying that getting a ‘fair achievement for the prince’ would annoy him (rattle his brains), because he didn't want to be helping the prince.  However, with "rack my brains", the subject performing the action should be the person, so the sentence should be rearranged to something like "I will/might have to rack my brains a little to figure out how to get a ‘fair achievement for the prince’."  If you do adopt that new suggested phrasing for the rest of the sentence, then I think the "although at most" doesn't fit and should probably be reworded (I don't understand the intent well enough to suggest anything for that). - Cthaeh
::::* Used your suggestion. Thanks.

Thus, the young princess wielded in her fervent speech that they should turn him back to his righteous self.
:*The phrase "wielded in her fervent speech" seemed a little awkward, though it probably reflect the original phrasing.  Something that may be a little more natural might be "advocated with her fervent speech".  Or as a slightly larger change, replacing with "fervently advocated/argued" would probably be the most natural phrasing.
::* I like 'fervently advocated in her speech' so I'll use that.

“... They will also be prepared to face off against Ende, and they have the opportunity to place Garbera indebted to them with the current campaign.”
:*"to place Garbera indebted to them" seems to me to be unusual phrasing.  I would propose either "to place Garbera in their debt" or "to make Garbera indebted to them".
::* Used 'place Garbera in their debt'.

“It’s ''still'' fine. Because I was ''still'' waiting for exactly ''this'' moment to arrive.”
:*I think some of the awkwardness I feel from this sentence comes from the difficulty of what I assume is trying to match the emphasis placed on certain words in the original (the use of the word ''still'').  But other than that, I thought "I was ''still'' waiting for exactly ''this'' moment" would be better in the present tense as "I am ''still'' waiting for exactly ''that'' moment".  I thought the "moment" Orba is waiting for was when someone tries to kidnap the princess and kill the prince, in which case it hasn't happed yet, so "am still waiting" is more appropriate.  The current wording with past tense "was still waiting" makes it sound like the "moment" Orba is referring to has passed.
::* Orba puts emphasis on まだ 'still', and uses that twice. (Like: I ''am'' fine because I ''am'' waiting.) I retained the emphasis, but if it makes it awkward in English, it loses its use. Also, I agree that 'that' is better in this case, as well as the present tense. So I changed it.

For he had fully realized what it was had been lost to him before.
:* At the least I think it needs a "that" in "what it was ___ had been lost".  Or you could delete the "it was".
::* You're right, changed it.

However, some of it had little effect as the Mephius’ encampment was further from the fortress.
:*It's a small issue, but I feel like "much of it had little effect" would fit the context a little better than "some", if that's consistent with the intended meaning.
::* My bad, I misinterpreted a certain word. It should be: "But at any rate (or anyhow), it had little effect as..." or "But it had little effect anyhow, as..."

:: Thanks for the comments. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 05:59, 25 September 2013 (CDT)