Editing Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1 (section)

=== Page 12 ===

'''The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1)''' She seemed to be around Saito's age and she '''wore(2)''' a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. '''Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3)''' She seems like a foreigner. '''Well... She is(4)'''. But she is such a cute '''foreigner girl(5)''', like a doll. '''Or is she a half?(6)'''

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before. 



'''Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)'''

There were a lot of people with black capes '''looking at him as a stranger.(8)''' There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he '''finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9)''' This was just like a fantasy. 


Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.


'''(1)''' This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky '''fall out behind a person'''?
Is the girl looking '''at''' Saito's face, '''staring at''' Saito's face or '''looking/staring''' into Saito's eyes?


* Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky. 
The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


:The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

:if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(2)''' Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.


* the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.
It's easier. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(2.5)''' "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる 【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(3)''' I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced '''about'''".
The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin '''for their stage'''" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

:It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


: Ah. That clears things up.
My new change: 
"Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage"
for their stage -> as their stage

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:05, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


: I thought it might be something close to; "Her reddish-brown eyes danced with her strawberry blond hair, and her flawless white skin was their stage."

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 08:30, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


: The naming game gave me the source text for this sentence awhile ago but I forgot to save it! In any case, referring to the naming game's comments above, to '''anthropomorphize''' things (I hate that word...), the eyes would be the dancers while the hair would be curtains and the skin would be like a backdrop (the scenery). Hence, the hair and the skin is "the stage" while the eyes are dancing around in this "stage".
Well, at least that's my interpretation of that interpretation...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:56, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


: I actually just realized this, and was posting on how people should disregard my last interpretation, but you beat me to it... I came to the realization that my last interpretation doesn't really make as much sense (if any at all) as the previous interpretation. As for the previous interpretation, I agree with the point that The naming game brought up, in that it would be better if it were "dance/danced about."  I would phrase it as, "Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes dance about, with her strawberry blond hair and flawless white skin set as their stage." It doesn't sound quite right, and can probably be improved upon. Also, should we have changed the tense of the sentence?

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:06, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(4)''' Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).


:ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

:Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.
::(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)
:She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.
::(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(5)''' foreigner girl -> foreign girl


'''(6)''' This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. '''"Or is she half-Japanese?'''


:いや、ハーフだろうか？

:No, half perhaps?

:Just for reference.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(7)''' I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

:Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


: "Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"
had come to be lying -> found himself lying

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:06, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


:"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had '''gotten''' there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highligheted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 11:20, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


'''(8)''' Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a '''though he were a''' stranger".

:黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

:Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

:I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

::I changed my mind on this awhile ago, talk page not updated; might as well do so now.

::After finding out that English loan words taken into Japanese do not always retain their original senses, "mantle" was no longer as good a choice as "cloak"

::We have three words that enroached upon each other, through historical vagary, no doubt.
::*"マント" (manto) = "cloak",
::*"マントル" (mantoru) = "mantle" (geological term; crust, mantle, core),
::*"クローク" (kuro-ku) -> "クロークルーム" (kuro-ku ru-mu) = "cloakroom" -> "coatroom" (this seems to be the most common usage. In fact, a 'cloak clerk' is short for 'coatroom clerk', and 'cloak' is short for 'coatroom' -- katakana 'cloak' doesn't seem to be used often to actually refer to a cloak.)

::[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:13, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

'''(9)''' Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:51, 20 August 2006 (GMT)


*I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


:豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

:A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.
::(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)